[StevieD]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6359363.stm

Alarming reading. Just shows we are hopefully making the correct decision!

No sign of NZ on the list, but it did say developed / rich nations on the news.

[Anita & Marco]

Hi,
Indeed very interesting reading and also I am wondering where NZ would be on this list when they had included it in the survey........

Luckily I do not have kids, otherwise I had better stayed where I came from - according to this survey.

Cheers,
Anita

[wilson182]

It has to be said though, that NZ has its own issues with child poverty. A big issue in the news this week is the National party trying to highlight the fact that a large percentage of NZ kids arrive at school with empty tummies and no lunch.

[Mr TW]

A lot of posts on the forum question whther NZ is the right move for the kids.

Perhaps the question should be, is the UK right for the kids?
For anyone who is wondering just how the UK compares to other countries, this makes an interesting read http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6359363.stm

[speckythecky]

It makes interesting reading. Uk Bottom and US just above but no sign of NZ in the list. At least not in the paper I was reading. The report was supposed to be all industrial nations - maybe someone has decided that NZ is not a developed industrial nation.

[Trigirl]

the report itself says that NZ was one of 9 OECD countries with insufficient data to be included in the overview

[Trigirl]

actually the report itself makes interesting reading - with NZ doing significantly better than the uk in some areas (eg education - particularly reading, maths and science ability by age 15) and significantly worse than the UK in others - including health and safety (particularly bad on child deaths from accidents and injuries)

[Trigirl]

have a read of the report (there's a link in the BBC report). NZ is in there in lots of the individual items - they just didn't have enough data to include them in the summary. but there are lots of interesting comparisons in areas like education, behaviour, poverty and safety

[Diny]

Very interesting read ...... it comes at an interesting time too. Only yesterday (or could it have been the day before) I was listening to a very in depth discussion on Radio Live (here in NZ) on almost the exact subject.

Some very interesting discussions taking place over how the kids of today were being failed, not looked after properly and not educated to an acceptable standard. Also some very heated discussions regarding kids living below the poverty line, going to school hungry and tired etc.

Looks like it's the same the world over.

Diny

[Debbie P.]

There was a very interesting discussion abou this on TV this morning (in the UK). One thing that was said really struck me - that we (in the West generally, but in the UK specifically) don't 'like' children. The man wasn't talking about individuals not liking their own children or children they know; he was talking about society as a whole not liking children in general, particularly children on the margins of society due to poverty, social exclusion etc.

It shocked me, but I know what he meant. I'm as guilty as anyone of making the immediate assumption that kids in hoodies hanging around shopping centres are up to no good.

It seemed to me that, if this was the case, it was probably more of a concern than material poverty.

[jailhouse]

Call me a synic, but i find it amazing that an agency like UniCef can use information, ranging from 1999 (not 2000 as stated) to judge where a nation is today! And at a time when they are going bowl in hand to the worldwide public and the UN.

University figures have risen by 16%, despite increased fees, lowest infant mortality rates, growing prosperity etc. We are such a bad country to live in that immigration figures are up year on year, businesses are more successful, unemployment is down, inflation is fairly stable and the outlook seems bright.

I would urge everyone to look at these types of report with an objective view. I have personally been involved in gathering statistics for public activities, and the way questions are phrased to each topic can greatly sway the way the questionairre is answered.

Eg: Teenager in the UK. Have you ever been drunk? Yes
Teenager in France. Same question No
Response, totally different. Why, perhaps the UK teenager does not understand what is meant by "drunk" , whereas the French teenager is perhaps used to drinking socially (in a family environment during a meal for example) and they therefore may understand more what the effects of alcohol are, and the way it reacts.

There was a recent study where teenagers were given alcoholic beer and non alcoholic beer to ascertain how they would react (can't remember the source), the findings were amazing. The control groups were given plain bottles, and over the period of the experiment, both groups showed signs of "intoxication", with the non-alcoholic group mirroring the effects of the alcoholic group.

When both groups were breathylised, not surprisingly the alcoholic group were over the limit, but the alcohol free group also believed they were over the limit (although this was not the case) and they failed tests for balance, dexterity and memory. So perhaps it is the perception of "Being Drunk" and having a good time or just trying to fit in that should be questioned.

Just my tuppence worth!

jh

[andreamatt]

Interesting report. One of the aspects that most saddens me is how many children grow up without books in their homes (9% of 15 year olds in the UK live in households which contain fewer than 10 books).

I have to say, from my very humble position of assisting in the classroom of a small rural school in Devon, that we don't seem to be so good at boosting children's self-esteem. I think that school should be a place where every child can, at least, come away from with his / her self-esteem intact...

Also, and I do know that it's been covered elsewhere (and I know Diny that you have issues with the NZ curriculum), IMHO the National Curriculum at primary level in this country short-changes children.

It will be interesting to see how different / how similar things are in Wellington.

Andrea

[Diny]

(and I know Diny that you have issues with the NZ curriculum), IMHO the National Curriculum at primary level in this country short-changes children.



We've recently taken on a private tutor for our kids. It's costing us a small fortune but well worth it, after just a couple of 'sessions' you can already see that old spark starting to re-ignite.

The chap teaching them is an ex-head teacher who quit his job through the sheer frustration of working within a system which - in his words - does nothing to challenge a kid. He said that he could only do so much, his hands always felt tied by the restraints of 'rules and regulations and the national curriculum'.

We're just sooooooooooooooooo happy to have found him, our kids are already 'perking up' (academically). The conversations around the dinner table have already taken on that old familiar feel, the kids just seem far more confident and alive. It's great !!!!

Again, I'm only reporting our own situation, can't comment on anybody elses behalf.

Diny

[Anita & Marco]

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-6950944,00.html

[nippa&pippa]

And here:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/3962244a6009.html

[jailhouse]

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-6950944,00.html


The link above from Anita & Marco clearly, I believe, shows the difference in the way things are reported to suit the need of the press in that country. I could have sworn, but cannot verify that during a news report tonight, the reporter stated that NZ was not included in the report because "they did not fulfill all the Q&A criteria".

Do not believe everything that is in the press.

Here in the UK, it was massively reported about the two thousand (i think that was the number) scientists who have confirmed that the earth is heating up (I wonder how much they got paid to reach that conclusion).

Within a week the government here said they are "considering" charging by the mile for vehicles here in the UK (stealth tax, surely not!). All the money we have paid here in the UK for environmental taxes seems to be doing the world a great deal. Our Chancellor of the Echeqour has promised £millions to every country under the sun.

They put up fuel prices for Petrol and Diesel, Road Tax Licence, Driving Theory Tests, Congestion Charging, and to top it all, exclusive "Toll Roads" on the major motorways to help vehicles avoid congestion, RESULT, every driver avoids the toll roads, takes alternative routes (to what was before the toll charges a steadily running motorway section) and create more congestion and pollution! Success.

I may be ranting, but i agree with Diny, you pay for what you get (not Dinys words), in her case a better education for her children with a private tutor, she is prepared to pay for that through choice. When you have international organisation's, using outdated information, for what seems political or economic reasons, my blood boils, as this not only causes confusion, but gives the press a chance to prophecise the "doomsday" philosophy of nothing is good in the world! Baaaah Humbug, the world may not be great, but at the moment, it is the only one we have, and should not be usurped by, what are, political organisations, working to their own benefits.

Sorry for the rant all, but the press really do get my goat, exaggerating events tha would ordinarily not make the side lines unless they "dramatised them".

jh

[nippa&pippa]

Don't want to start the huge arguements here, but i am interesting what do others think children's lifestyle is down to how parents deal with them? or society mainly?

[Anita & Marco]

Hi,

We are all part of society - so parents as well. And unfortunately, you need degrees or diplomas for most things in life except for raising children and building a strong society. If we would do both - we would truly come close to paradise.

Cheers,
anita

[Diny]

Putting it in very simplistic terms - I believe it's 95% parental input - 5% society input.

But there again, there's always going to be exceptions to every rule but I honestly believe that the role a parent plays has a MASSIVE effect on the outcome of the child/adult.

Anyway - that's just the tip of the iceberg on this discussion, one thing I've failed at as a parent is teaching my boys to tidy their room, I'm heading in there now to sort it out ----- I may be a long time.
Diny

[jailhouse]

Don't want to start the huge arguements here, but i am interesting what do others think children's lifestyle is down to how parents deal with them? or society mainly?


Sophia, reagrds your question, that is a great idea, and no arguments honestly,but, with respect a bit to simplistic.

A child's lifestyle can be influenced by a number of factors, which may include,

1. A parent works extra hours to support their family (be this a single or paired family unit) is this a failing on behalf of the parent\s or society (say for example, NZ where wages are very, very low for unskilled labour). The extra time at work means less time with the child(ren), therefore how is the childs lifestyle compromised. If both parent\s work over time, does this mean a better lifestyle\education for the child\ren or not?

2. A parent works the minimum hours, receives some kind of "state benefit" (not sure if this is available in NZ) and has the time to spend with their children, they then, presumably, have the choice of giving the child\ren a lot of time to help "progress" them or, totally ignore them and leave the child\ren to cope with "what life may bring".

My point is,

children from privileged backgrounds do not end up in the surveys, but may be, "educationally and socially" worse off due to the fact that they have money, and are therefore "happy" and do not need to be included.

the parent who works the extra hours may value their time more with their child\ren and spend lots of time socialising with them OR may be so tired their children are excluded from any close family ties, especially where the parent\s work shifts.

the parent who works minimal hours or does not work at all can have it just as hard. "Their" child is so bad because they have never worked and know no different, OR they have had all their time bringing up their child, that is why they have the advantage!

just a thought.

jh

[nippa&pippa]

That very interesting points as above

I choose to not return back to work full time after had my first and become stay at home mum and work at supermarket while he was in bed for four hours. Then after had 2nd, I follow same as above as i thought i will do my children's best start of their life as primary educator at home till they start school. My plan at the moment is when my youngest child start school, i will try get job at school, i can be at home when children at home....
At the moment i am bit gobsmacked on how many children at my son's kindy are still wearing nappy, my son was out of nappy by 2. Yesterday a teacher told me that my son is currently only child at 3 years old know how to change their clothes without help. I asked teacher last week about writing & reading as my son is showing very keen on learning writing and reading so we helped him at home but i thought he will do some at kindy, but no as they don't start till later.

My husband and i was discussed few days ago about that, IS UK is putting pressure on children to be out of nappy earlier, to write early, to read early, to start school early and to look after themselves with clothes etc early or is NZ children are bit lazy? What do you think? (just interesting what others think on this)

[Debbie P.]

My husband and i was discussed few days ago about that, IS UK is putting pressure on children to be out of nappy earlier, to write early, to read early, to start school early and to look after themselves with clothes etc early or is NZ children are bit lazy? What do you think? (just interesting what others think on this)

YES, I think the UK is putting too much pressure on children at an early age! Not comparing with NZ, but comparing with countries like Netherlands, Sweden etc.

However, there needs to be a balance betwen not pushing young children too hard but also learning to respect them as human beings. I'm not sure how that balance is achieved, but I'm always struck by how, in countries like Italy and Greece, you often see young children out late with their parents, having dinner - and how well behaved they usually are.

Don't get me wrong - not dissing parents for having baby-sitters etc, but what we seem to be doing is telling children that they have to grow up and be responsible etc but at the same time, we deliberately exclude them from adult activities, which may make them feel that they're not valued. Whereas, when I grew up, I may have had babysitters, but it didn't seem so strange to me, because I wasn't being pushed to grow up too fast at the same time.

Ok, I know I'm rambling here! I'm just thinking in particular about my 9 year old nephew - although I have no problems with how my sister is bringing him and my niece up (and she teaches his age group, so has a clear idea about where he should be educationally), he is a nightmare to baby sit, and I can't imagine taking him out late to a restaurant! Underneath all the bluster, he comes across as quite unhappy, and I'm not sure exactly why, but I fear that he feels the pressure of having a clever older sister and a mother who (perhaps) knows a little too much about educational theories?

[Paul]

YES, I think the UK is putting too much pressure on children at an early age! Not comparing with NZ, but comparing with countries like Netherlands, Sweden etc.

However, there needs to be a balance betwen not pushing young children too hard but also learning to respect them as human beings. I'm not sure how that balance is achieved, but I'm always struck by how, in countries like Italy and Greece, you often see young children out late with their parents, having dinner - and how well behaved they usually are.

Don't get me wrong - not dissing parents for having baby-sitters etc, but what we seem to be doing is telling children that they have to grow up and be responsible etc but at the same time, we deliberately exclude them from adult activities, which may make them feel that they're not valued. Whereas, when I grew up, I may have had babysitters, but it didn't seem so strange to me, because I wasn't being pushed to grow up too fast at the same time.

Ok, I know I'm rambling here! I'm just thinking in particular about my 9 year old nephew - although I have no problems with how my sister is bringing him and my niece up (and she teaches his age group, so has a clear idea about where he should be educationally), he is a nightmare to baby sit, and I can't imagine taking him out late to a restaurant! Underneath all the bluster, he comes across as quite unhappy, and I'm not sure exactly why, but I fear that he feels the pressure of having a clever older sister and a mother who (perhaps) knows a little too much about educational theories?

I also think there is a lot of pressure for littlun's to grow up too fast as the world we live in now is very much faster paced in general so not surprising I guess. We (the Western world) live in a society where everything is expected here and now and that must pass over onto our children who we also expect to be able to do everything now and not in their own time.

Personally I think a lot of the traditional values such as respect and morals need to be reaffirmed within children by parents at a young age, and simple things such as moderating childrens viewing habits, sensible and regular bedtimes, eating "proper" food and spending quality family time would go a long way to making this place a lot more pleasant place to live. Or we could all take the "easy" option and pretend that really we listen to what our children want when really all we are doing is letting them do what ever is easiest for us

We can but dream!

[nippa&pippa]

One things i am so glad about moving to New Zealand is that my children have freedom without peer pressure and without school staffs going over the top worry about their safety at school...ok NZ have high number of children with injuries but our children will never learn their own limit without freedom to climb etc.
My son in UK never had lots of cut, bruise etc and every time my son had 'accident' involved something like very tiny bump on his head, the preschool staff would panic and see me afterward to let me know and asked to sign the form that i am aware of 'injury'. There was no climbing frame, kids not allowed to run around just in case they 'bump' into other children etc, very restriction what they can do at preschool, nursery etc just in case parents sued.
Now in NZ, he was covered in god how many bruise, cuts etc but we are happy as he had real childhood, no 'nanny state' type in NZ. His kindy didn't bother telling me verbally that he had accidents, i just had to look in accident book if i want to know what happened, but my son usually tell what happened because once he had huge plastic on his elbow and he was very 'proud' to tell me all about it!! (just simple fell off the go-kart over the bump on the track at kindy:yes ) and other times, he fell off climbing frame, slide! He used to complained that older kids played too rough on him, but now he learn to how play rough with them, that he have pass on to his 12months sister :uhoh