[Jauhari]

Thanks nippa&pippa and willowshouse:)
you guys are right....it is a very subjective perception. We are two, me and my wife. It will ofcourse depend on many factors like you say. Thanks again, let's see how things work out...cheers

[Trigirl]

were you on an average wage in the uk? i mean statistically average - not just that you felt like you were a normal person on a normal wage. i think the uk average wage is about £23k.

$90k is well above average here. it equals $62,460 after tax. work on that to determine of you can live here - rather than "averages"

[Jauhari]

Hi there Trigirl,
That is the problem, my annual salary in the UK is c £42,000 and my wife's earning around £25,000 pa. This the reason why I fear whether I'd be able to adjust to the new income or not especially since my wife will not work initially. I am not a huge spender, nor is my wife, but one does get used to a lifestyle. I am a Psychiatrist and my wife is a merchandising manager. I don't see a career progression in the UK and that is why we are thinking of moving to NZ. Basically for a better career and interesting life. I am 30 and my wife's 29. I thought it'll be interesting to see a new culture (which is better for my work) and see another part of the world too while our age permits. My wife's a bit apprehensive, I really don't know... :confused:

[james the mechanic]

Hi Jauhari/all
I think what everyone needs to understand is that you move to nz for lifestyle, not money. $90k is a very good wage in nz, sure people earn more but the majority earn much less.
Above all, leave your consumer driven lifestye in the uk/usa.
Is that not what we are escaping from?
James

[willowshouse]

Hi Jauhari/all
I think what everyone needs to understand is that you move to nz for lifestyle, not money. $90k is a very good wage in nz, sure people earn more but the majority earn much less.
Above all, leave your consumer driven lifestye in the uk/usa.
Is that not what we are escaping from?
James

Hi James,

As has been discussed on another thread - the danger with thinking that you'll be fine is you "leave your consumer driven lifestyle behind" is that some people are clearly not OK and have great difficulties making their money stretch to what they consider to be essentials (like food and electricity money :D ). I would agree, people here do live on a lot less .. but there are people I know who scrape around for enough money for food and they don't seem to think that's odd... it's all relative to your own circumstances.

The best advice is - check it out and satisfy yourself that it's enough money for you!

Regards,
Dawn

[james the mechanic]

Hi Guys,
People are talking about maintaining their current lifestyle/living standard, that being the way in which one lives.
The values 'system' and attitudes in NZ make life simpler, thus it's acceptable to drive a used car, (nearly everyone does). If you maintain your current lifestyle, i.e. drive a new Merc, eat imported european food washed down with imported wine or beer while doing the same job you did at home. But now subjected to the NZ pay scale, its common sense that you will have more month than money.
Prosperity and quality are not necessarily related.
However Dawn's right; check it out and satisfy yourself that it's enough money for your desired lifestyle.
James

[Tia Maria]

Jauhari - In answer to your question yes a drop from a joint income of £67,000 to $90,000 will take some adjusting to, just as it would in the UK if you had to take a paycut of this kind and then had to fund a holiday of a lifetime to the other side of the world.

Obviously if you are bringing over some money to buy a house or have some savings with which to pay life insurance or invest for retirement etc, then it won't bite so hard.

Also if you know you will want to do trips home or over to Oz or Fiji etc, then it would be wise to have a holiday fund put aside from UK savings rather than trying to get it out of your NZ wage.

With good planning and trying to get an understanding of the changes you will have to make you can put yourself in the best position to enjoy all the opportunities that NZ has to offer. If you are a practical kind of person then ask yourself what it is NZ can offer you specifically and then ask yourself is it worth the money - be exact -£20,000/£50,000/£100,000?

I think once you've made that mental commitment that it is worth the money then coping with your new financial situation is easier as you look for solutions to help you stay in NZ rather than feeling worn down by your poorer lifestyle.

Some good threads to check out:

Disposable Income:

www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10750

Consumeristic Lifestyle:

www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11473

How Much Will I Earn After Paying The Mortgage? (which I think should be a sticky :D )

www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10910

Avalon's Money Thread:

www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9357

And as others have said check out the Money Matters section in general as there have been a few is '$xxx enough?' posts and you may find one that mirrors your situation.

Hope this helps! :nice1

Cheers

Tia

[Jauhari]

Thank you Tia, James and all who have pitched in with their excellent thoughts.
It was all very helpful. I think I will take the plunge and see what life has to offer. Cheers;)

[Trigirl]

Hi Guys,
People are talking about maintaining their current lifestyle/living standard, that being the way in which one lives.
The values 'system' and attitudes in NZ make life simpler, thus it's acceptable to drive a used car, (nearly everyone does). If you maintain your current lifestyle, i.e. drive a new Merc, eat imported european food washed down with imported wine or beer while doing the same job you did at home. But now subjected to the NZ pay scale, its common sense that you will have more month than money.
Prosperity and quality are not necessarily related.
However Dawn's right; check it out and satisfy yourself that it's enough money for your desired lifestyle.
James

I'm sorry but this could only be written by someone who has not yet lived in NZ. Several "trips" while earning pounds is really not enough to be making sweeping judgements like this one. Its exceptionally insulting to the many people who come over here and struggle to make ends meet despite not driving flash cars, eating out all the time (in many cases not eating out at all) or drinking/eating imported food and drink.

It might be worth you having a read though some of the other topics on this subject before making these types of comments.

[dharder]

People are talking about maintaining their current lifestyle/living standard, that being the way in which one lives.
The values 'system' and attitudes in NZ make life simpler, thus it's acceptable to drive a used car,

But that sounds as if the current lifestyle is extravagant, and surely it isn't in all cases?

Our current lifestyle is not extravagant by any stretch of the imagination, and to be honest, there aren't too many savings I can see that we could make. So simple life all very well, I still have to be able to feed and clothe my family.

And I can see even that rather 'simple' lifestyle being more difficult to afford over there than it is here, so I don't see this as mainly a question of my willingness (or lack thereof) to give up a life of luxuries to 'go back to the basics.'

I am very carefully calculating what we need, what is affordable for us, and what sort of wage I have to aim for if we are to make it over there.

There is a difference between having to trade the new Mercedes for a used car, or having to trade the used car for no car!

Daniela

[Angelonthemove]

Salary 1 $4,210.00 ($70k salary gross)
Salary 2 $6,500.00 ($120k salary gross)
minus DD -$1,500.00
Mortgage -$4,300.00 100% $485k

SPENDING -$3,500.00 excessive wine drinkers :laugh
cash left $1,410.00

if I have not spent it, we have not saved anything yet so far.Paid for my daughter to come over and still paying it back.

thought this would give you more of an idea my excel monthly sheet. We spend $600 on gas and electric and they did a boo boo so we are paying the extra back over the years so its a little high on the average. DD included broadband, car parking, Spending is my food shopping and work lunches, DIY, petrol etc. we eat out sometimes lunches over the weekend and odd meal out at night, take away pizza fridays.

If you are a family of four then this is irrelevant to you.

We came here as we love it but also to make up the our pension money we lost in Cyprus hence the hefty salaries of job we would prefer not to be doing at our age:D

If you have no mortgage then deduct the monthly amount and see what you have left. We have lived on one salary with similiar rent outgoing whilst I was out of work for 3 months.

[Caspar]

Those figures are outragous mmost people we know here dont even earn that $70k never min $120k. :no People shoud'nt be scared to read this and think they need it.

[willsken]

I don't know if I'm reading this wrongly but I don't see what James said wrong. He seems to be saying that if you hope to live an extravagant life style doing the same job in NZ you will struggle. As a teacher I find what he says true. I don't have nearly as much disposable income over here as I did in the UK. I don't just go out and spend without thinking any more, I can't afford to. I can however afford a perfectly comfortable life without lacking the basics. (Meaning my basics, which to some would still seem extravagant)

[Trigirl]

i read james post as a response to dawns - ie people who are struggling to pay their bills and feed their children should try giving up their flash cars.

i may have read it wrongly but thats how it comes across to me. i've gone back and read it again and thats still how it comes across.

there are plenty of people on here who have actually struggled financially. especially those who don't have masses of £s to bring across with them. while i find angelonthemove's figures quite astonishing one thing is for sure - a $485k mortgage is not at all extravagant for welly and $4300 a month will eat up a big chunk of most peoples salary.

[willsken]

i read james post as a response to dawns - ie people who are struggling to pay their bills and feed their children should try giving up their flash cars.

i may have read it wrongly but thats how it comes across to me. i've gone back and read it again and thats still how it comes across.

there are plenty of people on here who have actually struggled financially. especially those who don't have masses of £s to bring across with them. while i find angelonthemove's figures quite astonishing one thing is for sure - a $485k mortgage is not at all extravagant for welly and $4300 a month will eat up a big chunk of most peoples salary.

Blimey and I moan about the size of my mortgage!! :no

Trigirl isn't it strange how the written word often confuses things! I re read as well and I'm still not sure! I know many people over here struggle to pay for the real basics in life and you're right that giving up the flash things in life isn't an option as they don't have them to start with.

Hopefully James will be on later to clarify. :D

[dharder]

i read james post as a response to dawns - ie people who are struggling to pay their bills and feed their children should try giving up their flash cars.

That's how I read it too, and I had to think of this guy quoted in the paper a few weeks ago who seemed think that if people only stopped their extravagant spendy lifestyles, I think he mentioned drinking coffee, then they'd be fine and could afford to buy houses even in Auckland (in the Herald not too long ago).

Daniela

[Angelonthemove]

the reason I put our monthly cost is to show that with normal gas elec rate, insurance, food that it what it comes out to. I do not expect anyone to have the salaries we have. We are in a sad position of having lost all our savings in Cyprus, and half our house from the Uk in the process. We are starting all over gain here and in our late 40s.

So if you come here with no mortgage then the cost are similiar unless you do not drink wine as much as we do. Food wise we cook from scratch and do not buy pre process food.

The mortage and house cost gives others a true picture for those who have metioned they would need 100% as in a similiar positions as us.

I have been a single Mum in the Uk on social payment, boy that is hard. Had a weekend with no cash and no food to feed us. So I know what it is like to be on the breadline.

There a lot of people stuggling on this board over here and its hard for them. I know where they are coming from. Giving up extras is not a possilbity its finding money for essential. I do not think NZ has all the answers for everyone. We just do not want to go back to the UK rat race.

Just really trying topoint out that the cost of living here is comparable to the rest of the world. Hope that clarifies it better.

[james the mechanic]

Hi guys,
Trigirl! I've clearly hit a nerve, sorry it wasn't my intention.
Willsken you're spot on, same job, NZ pay, same lifestyle,=less disposable cash.
What I'm trying to convey is that NZ is not some kind of utopia where you will live the millionaire life style, unless you did so in your previous country.
Swissmissdesigner asks; Can I keep the same living standaed or even improve it? I guess the answer depends on your prospective, if you mean a champagne lifestyle probably not. If you mean a humble outdoors lifestyle in a clean, safe, friendly and stunningly beautiful environment, absolutely.
As nippa&pippa says; Some people couldn't cope with low wages as some of them are not prepared to change their lifestyles from they were in the UK/USA and mis them.
Jauhari says; One does get used to a lifestyle.
I do not doubt for a minute that some people are struggling immensely and yes Dharder I understand that giving up coffee is probably not a practcal solution. However I can't help wondering whether some people's problems aren't componded by a lack of plastic offering 0%.
Of course living the 'high life' in NZ is not impossible however my point is, if you do not achieve it in your current country, I doubt you will in NZ.
I think looking at average wage, average house price or average mortgage/rent are often very misleading. Think if you were earning the average wage in your current country, could you afford to buy an average house in that country?
I will reterate; check it out and satisfy yourself that it's enough money for your desired lifestyle. There are so many variables, that what works for one can't possible work for all.
James

[Angelonthemove]

There are many people who read these post from all backgrounds and situations. So the more advise the better.

[tourist]

need 100k for a decent standard of living

[Lupin]

I'm finding your style of posting (off the cuff, unsubstantiated claims) increasingly annoying Tourist. Could you offer a little more insight into why you think you need $100K for a decent standard of living in NZ, given the average income and that many of us consider ourselves enjoying a very decent standard of living on far less?

[incredible hulse]

Thanks for sharing Angela. I don't think your figures sound ridiculous either - we went through 8k this month having to pay for a dentist visit and also renew the house insurance and pay the quarterly rates. We certainly don't live a champagne lifestyle anymore and actually cut our food shopping bill down this month to around 750 (from the usual 1000-1250 mark) by eating mince for about a week ;) and our eat out costs were 160 dollars. The fact is with power and food costs being the price they are here it is not a cheap place to live even like a hermit. No matter how beautiful the country is living even the 'low' life isn't cheap and the facts shouldn't be dismissed.

[swissmissdesigner]

"No matter how beautiful the country is living even the 'low' life isn't cheap and the facts shouldn't be dismissed."

So true..

[constablechuck]

My wife and I live on about 60,000 NZD (actually 45,000 NZD after taxes) in Christchurch. We paid cash for our 2 cars so no car payments. In a normal month, meaning no unexpected expenses we actually have a few hundred left over to put in our savings, some months where we got hit with large dentist and car repair bills we had to dip into our savings.

900 per month Rent for a modestly furnished 2 bedroom flat.

125 per month Electricity.

170 per month Telephone, Sky TV and Broadband Internet.

70 per month insurance for 2 cars (1 full coverage and 1 is 3rd party only)

40 per month for mobile phone minutes.

500 per month on groceries.

200 per month on petrol.

1200 per month spending money (which includes eating out, take aways, dry cleaners and other incidentals).

About 400 per year for car license for 2 cars.

About 2000 per year for clothes and other misc items.

For now were happy to rent, however with our current income we could not afford to buy a home, it appears that buying a home costs about twice as much as renting.

[Tia Maria]

Thanks for posting those Constablechuck. :nice1

As an example of how family situation and the area you live in can greatly change your circumstances a 3 bed villa we looked at as a rental would have cost us $800 per week, in other words:

$3200 per month for renting 3 bed villa in Devonport, North Shore, Auckland

So where as $60,000 would be adequate for Constablechuck, for us rent alone would wipe out any chances of saving or buying any 'extras'. And that is before you account for all the other costs of having children.

Cheers

Tia

[Island Moose]

Wow, I should have avoided this thread, now I'm really worried about what I'm getting myself into. I thought $60-$65K was good money in NZ, I mean "buy-a-house" money?! After all, it's just me...I don't think I spend more than $500-$700 CDN on myself over and above rent/month. Are the previous observations based on the cost of living for families?

(Thoroughly spooked)

[Tia Maria]

Island Moose - the posts are from a variety of different people in a variety of different situations, so the best thing is to do a personal budget.

A couple of obvious things which will affect your house buying abilities apart from income are: 1) The area you are moving to and 2) If you are bringing any savings over.

Start from there ........

Cheers

Tia

[nickydwuk]

Like many of you I have been worrying that we will be unable to afford to live on my wages alone ($46,000). In a previous thread many members gave me examples of their expenditure and I used this as a basis for a rough budget. I did a sample shopping list on woolworths.co.nz using one weeks receipts from the UK (to get an idea of what I would be buying) to get an idea of my food costs and tried to factor into my budget costs for savings, holidays, entertainment etc... It helps that neither OH or myself go out much neither do my 2 boys. Doing this budget left me approx $200 whilst renting but once having bought property I was left with more as we will not need a mortgage.

Please do your research and do a budget. There is a lot of information on this forum to help with budgeting. But I think it will always be diffucult to know how much it will cost until you actually live in NZ. But at least you have a rough idea.:)

[Rabbit]

I thought I would start a controversy relating to the cost of living here.

Often, people who attend interviews are told the story of 1NZ$ = 1UK pound.

I have read further opinions of about 2$ to every pound.

Yet, the official exchange rate is $2.65 to the pound today.

Personally, I find the cost of living about the same as the UK. In some cases more expensive and less – swings and round-abouts so about the same.

Wine is more expensive (though perhaps better quality), so is a copy of scientific American, or the new scientist. Cinemas, doctors and dentists appear more expensive and council taxes is not that much different if you live in a good area? Interest rates are higher; employment pension provision is non-existent or very poor.

Houses are cheaper, but they are of poor build quality – e.g. not double glazed and have poor heating schemes – so therefore relatively expensive.

Petrol is relatively cheap, but because of the hills one is likely to use twice as much more and the taxes on this are expected to increase.

The costs of holidays and travel internally and externally are very high compared to Europe so the annual holiday to find some diversity or keep back in touch with home can be excessive.

Given the above, and given the official rate today is about $2.65, I would say this about right.

The cost of living in NZ is about the same as the UK, if one factors in the lack of employment benefits in terms of Cars and Pensions and the higher tax regime.

The ability to liquidate capital from a UK property remains the most potential benefit (for some) and this can be soon spent.

So next time some says to me it is about 1$ to 1 Pound, I will say no it is not, and that the official exchange rate is what the rate really is. So in NZ it is a lower standard of living most definitely in pure financial terms if you consider things like tax and pensions provision.

You have to make pensions provision out of very poor low earnings and most people cant afford to do that in NZ.

[able]

Cinemas
dentists
council taxes


Could you say how much these cost you, so we can compare please?


because of the hills one is likely to use twice as much more

What do you drive, and what's your fuel consumption?


The costs of holidays and travel internally


What do you pay to do what?


higher tax regime


How so?

Thanks :nice1

[Rabbit]

I am making a relative comparison, you are asking for absolute costs. Just remember, if you go to the doctor, and he wants to do tests you will pay for them e.g. an xray and an ultrasound $290, $40 for the doctors appointment. Council rates are about $3500 PA on a $600k house in a good area. If you want to get out and about, you will need a 4x4 these are heavy on juice and there are lots of hills. My motor insurance here is $580 + road tax, about the same I paid in the UK. 600$ for a flight to Queenstown and a top hotel costs $600-900 a night e.g. Sofitel, though yes you can do it cheaper.

Yes, you can drive a 10 year old banger, and live in a garden shed, and spend your holidays camping but you can also do that in the UK on the west coast of scotland.

Factor in pensions provision, costs of health services, flights etc it is about the same or more than the UK depending on your lifestyle.

Yes, the wharehouse is cheap, but so is Matalan back in the UK.

In a recent OECD survey, disposable income in NZ is about the same as Poland.

[Lupin]

I agree with some of what you're saying Rabbit but this I do not:

Yes, you can drive a 10 year old banger, and live in a garden shed, and spend your holidays camping but you can also do that in the UK on the west coast of scotland.

I don't live in a garden shed, neither have I spent $600K on a home; it's not one or the other.

Camping in the UK and camping in NZ are just totally incomparable experiences. Have you camped much in either :p

[Trigirl]

i can help with a few of these. cinema costs about $14-$15 here. compared to about £7 in the uk.

rates are about $2k here (3 bed house in welly). about £1k in the uk. our house here is approx 50% bigger than the one we had in the uk and is in a relatively central welly suburb. in the uk we lived in rural bedfordshire.

fuel is about $1.50 a litre. hard to compare usage as we now have a small automatic compared to the diesel landrover we had in the uk.

[Rabbit]

i can help with a few of these. cinema costs about $14-$15 here. compared to about £7 in the uk.

rates are about $2k here (3 bed house in welly). about £1k in the uk. our house here is approx 50% bigger than the one we had in the uk and is in a relatively central welly suburb. in the uk we lived in rural bedfordshire.

fuel is about $1.50 a litre. hard to compare usage as we now have a small automatic compared to the diesel landrover we had in the uk.

Our Cinema charges this evening - $18 per seat.

Petrol today was $1.59 a litre

[Rabbit]

I have just noticed the fact that pricing in NZ can be a percentage of a cent. Looks like it pays to shop around.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4067536a11.html

[stu70]

Wow, I should have avoided this thread, now I'm really worried about what I'm getting myself into. I thought $60-$65K was good money in NZ, I mean "buy-a-house" money?! After all, it's just me...I don't think I spend more than $500-$700 CDN on myself over and above rent/month. Are the previous observations based on the cost of living for families?

(Thoroughly spooked)
One thing to remember, Canada and more so the USA are relatively cheaper places than Europe to live, buy property and salaries are also higher here (comparatively speaking). So when you are going to NZ, one thing that might bother you is the cost of housing. You can get a very cool rental in North American cities for a reasonable price (as a ratio of earnings to rental)but look at rentals in NZ! Also the real estate is very expensive so you might have a hard time buying a home on a salary like you mentioned without paying down a big chunk of money. Also the interest rates are like we used to have in the 80s. So be careful as you plan. Good luck

[Island Moose]

One thing to remember, Canada and more so the USA are relatively cheaper places than Europe to live, buy property and salaries are also higher here (comparatively speaking). So when you are going to NZ, one thing that might bother you is the cost of housing. You can get a very cool rental in North American cities for a reasonable price (as a ratio of earnings to rental)but look at rentals in NZ! Also the real estate is very expensive so you might have a hard time buying a home on a salary like you mentioned without paying down a big chunk of money. Also the interest rates are like we used to have in the 80s. So be careful as you plan. Good luck

The median price of a single family home where I live now is $580,000 CDN, or about $740,000 NZD. I prowl the Auckland real estate websites and see quite a few houses in the $350-$450 range...but most are more as you say.

I don't expect things to be cheap, I knew going in that NZ had some economic difficulties, I think as long as the the people are as warm as they seem, and the hills are as green as they look on TV (sorry...I know...)...then I'll be content. I did the ravenous quest for money in my 20's, bought and sold a lot of "stuff" and none of it was worthwhile.

[Oregonkiwi]

600$ for a flight to Queenstown and a top hotel costs $600-900 a night e.g. Sofitel, though yes you can do it cheaper.

you can do it MUCH cheaper; I spent about 3 minutes on the internet and found a return flight on Air NZ from Wellington to Queenstown next week for $338, and most likely could find it cheaper if I looked around more; and there appear to be plenty of nice hotels in Queenstown in the $150 - $200 range: http://www.hotelclub.net/hotel.reservations/Queenstown.htm
Picking the absolutely most expensive hotel to make your point doesn't really help the people who want to know what things really cost.

[swissmissdesigner]

You can get great deals in this web site:
http://flightbookings.airnewzealand.co.nz/vgrabview/

[Rabbit]

you can do it MUCH cheaper; I spent about 3 minutes on the internet and found a return flight on Air NZ from Wellington to Queenstown next week for $338, and most likely could find it cheaper if I looked around more; and there appear to be plenty of nice hotels in Queenstown in the $150 - $200 range: http://www.hotelclub.net/hotel.reservations/Queenstown.htm
Picking the absolutely most expensive hotel to make your point doesn't really help the people who want to know what things really cost.


I did say you could do it cheaper. The charges I paid were by booking a holiday on the NZ website. The other point to understand is relativity. E.g if you wish to maintain the same level of lifestyle e.g. live in a modern 5 bedroom house, in a good area, drive a new car, and the maintain the same lifestyle and continue to provide for your old age it will cost about the same.

The Sofitel was not that luxurious and overrated by the way.

A glass of house wine in a restuarant/bar in queenstown costs about $9 and a flat white $4.25

If you decide to fly on a Friday or Saturday, not in the middle of autum you will pay allot more.

There is a Youth Hostel/Backpackers by the way and it is just opposite the Sofitel

We have been to Queenstown a couple of times and each time we paid around $600 each for a return flight on the day and time we wanted to go.

[Trigirl]

Our Cinema charges this evening - $18 per seat.

Petrol today was $1.59 a litre

Fair enough - if you go to the embassy (the most expensive cinema in town) at the weekend then its $18. but its $15 even there during the week, its $14 at the weekends at reading cinemas just down the road, $13.50 at paramount.

so my quote of $14-$15 for how much it costs to go to the cinema stands as a comparison to normal uk prices (if you want to quote the most expensive london cinema as a comparison then i'm happy to use $18 instead)

BP is charging $1.59 - all the others $1.52 (sorry if you didn't realise and shopped at BP) - so you are right that it pays to shop around - this is the more up to date version of the story you linked to
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10442375

as oregonkiwi says - picking the most expensive of each item to make a point doesn't exactly help.

[incredible hulse]

As an aside when was the last time anyone paid full price for petrol ? Don't think we have for a good 3 months with all these supermarket vouchers ! Just off to use my last 20c off a litre one since the last price war in Kapiti

[katandbob]

http://www.stats.govt.nz/census/default.htm

this is the official site for the census done all over NZ last year - we couldn't be part of it as it was just before we arrived.

maybe it will be of help

I',m not commenting on our budget as its been done before

Kat

[Rabbit]

as oregonkiwi says - picking the most expensive of each item to make a point doesn't exactly help.


Trigirl, I am not picking the most expensive item, my statements relate purely to my own expenditure experience as do yours.

We all have different lifestyles and have different standards of living.

All I can say is that is when I maintain the same standard of living as I had before then it costs relatively the same, sometimes more.

If you go to Queenstown on a bank holiday weekend for example, you will pay through the nose as there is only one airline. In other countries you will also pay more but there is more competition - simple economics.

By the way the Sofitel does not even have a swimming pool and the price does not include breakfast.

Of course, people can change their lifestyles and spend less, but you can also do that elsewhere.

A key point I am trying to make is, if the cost of many items are higher that you buy - based on your lifestyle, the income is less and the income tax more (e.g. no personal allowances), and pensions provision seriously less, then you will have less disposable income and not be able to maintain the same lifestyle.

Yes, you can change your lifestyle, become more frugal, buy a smaller house without double glazing or central heating, only travel off-peak, buy a second hand car etc, go for walks, do things that do not cost money etc...but you cannot escape the fact that you will still need to make provision for your old age because of poor pensions provision here, so that is a hidden cost that further reduces your disposable income.

Yes, you can get a flat white in Wellington for $3 or cheap veggies at the farmers market.

So less income and less pension provision, less tax relief results in a lower standard of living from a financial perspective.

Though for some, a shorter commute, more space, less people, nice scenery and a better quality of life.

It is all relative.

[stu70]

Trigirl, I am not picking the most expensive item, my statements relate purely to my own expenditure experience as do yours.

We all have different lifestyles and have different standards of living.

All I can say is that is when I maintain the same standard of living as I had before then it costs relatively the same, sometimes more.

If you go to Queenstown on a bank holiday weekend for example, you will pay through the nose as there is only one airline. In other countries you will also pay more but there is more competition - simple economics.

By the way the Sofitel does not even have a swimming pool and the price does not include breakfast.

Of course, people can change their lifestyles and spend less, but you can also do that elsewhere.

A key point I am trying to make is, if the cost of many items are higher that you buy - based on your lifestyle, the income is less and the income tax more (e.g. no personal allowances), and pensions provision seriously less, then you will have less disposable income and not be able to maintain the same lifestyle.

Yes, you can change your lifestyle, become more frugal, buy a smaller house without double glazing or central heating, only travel off-peak, buy a second hand car etc, go for walks, do things that do not cost money etc...but you cannot escape the fact that you will still need to make provision for your old age because of poor pensions provision here, so that is a hidden cost that further reduces your disposable income.

Yes, you can get a flat white in Wellington for $3 or cheap veggies at the farmers market.

So less income and less pension provision, less tax relief results in a lower standard of living from a financial perspective.

Though for some, a shorter commute, more space, less people, nice scenery and a better quality of life.

It is all relative.
well put:nice1

[swissmissdesigner]

This car is faboulus !
www.youtube.com/profile?user=mafiah

[Ana&Steve]

This car is faboulus !
www.youtube.com/profile?user=mafiah
That was interesting! I hope it tests out ok and gets marketed.


As to posting experiences and advise on here, I do glean so much info from this forum, and I appreciate the varied views on here, as it helps us imagine where we will fit into NZ. However, I have occasionally mistaken someone's skewed opinion for hard fact. Fortunately I've googled things to get a better idea, and visited NZ twice, but not everyone has resources or time to prove everything that they read here, and misinformation could be harmful. This forum is often the only outlet of info about the practical applications of life in NZ for those who have yet to make the journey.
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, and I can't say I've never been guilty of it.
If you are feeling low about something and what it off your chest, a post in the Lounge will get a better response and sympathetic ears.
Ana

[able]

I hear what you say about opinion and hard fact Ana&Steve. Rabbit has mentioned higher taxes a couple of times so I had a look at tax calculators.

Income Taxes
NZ http://www.ird.govt.nz/calculators/keyword/individualincometax/calculator-tax-rate.html

UK http://www.listentotaxman.com/

Since the average migrant will be earning a bit more than average in the UK (higher skills) I used an income of £30,000. That's $NZ79,800 at today's rate.

UK tax payable is £7,979 (26.6% of gross pay goes in income taxes)
NZ tax payable is $22,392 (28.1% of gross pay goes in income taxes)

Then there's purchasing tax.

UK VAT runs at 17.5%.
NZ GST is 12.5%.

What about house taxes

UK Stamp duty on an average £200,000 home is £3000.
If people are skilled and want to live in an above average £300,000 home, stamp duty would be £9,000.

NZ Stamp Duty is zero.

Council Taxes

I live in a smallish three bedroom house and pay over £2,000 a year in council taxes. My understanding is that I'd probably pay less than £1,000 on a similar house in NZ.

Fuel Duty

NZ petrol costs $1.52 per litre. I filled up at ASDA in the UK yesterday for $2.55 (95.9p) per litre. So obviously fuel taxes are lower in NZ too.

The Whole Picture

Taxation in NZ is not higher than in the UK. The opposite is probably true.

[incredible hulse]

Able - You are correct on a lot of things there but some things to point out that maybe relevant:
- Unfortunately most employers in NZ don't take your UK wage and multiply it by the exchange rate
- You quote NZ council tax in £'s - you're not earning them so think in $'s; they won't be 1k in $'s unfortunately
- You pay for schooling and doctors in NZ directly - a tax after income tax?
- You pay tax on all your savings
- Pension payments are not tax exempt and employer contributions are mainly non-existent or at best pitiful
- Maybe wrong but I believe GST (inc full rate) is more widespread including books, children's clothes, carseats, domestic fuel and power

[wiki]

- You pay for schooling and doctors in NZ directly - a tax after income tax?

The "free health in the UK" seems to be getting chipped away more and more:

STORM OVER GPs’ PLAN TO CHARGE EVENING PATIENTS
By James Watson,
Patients who want to see a GP in the evening should face a £20 charge, according to a group of doctors.
The charge would apply only to routine appointments made in advance and not to out-of-hours emergencies, which would still be handled by local primary care trusts.
But the idea has provoked anger from patients’ groups, which have branded it a “scandal”.
The motion, put forward by a group of family doctors from around the country, states: “Resources for routine care outside core hours should be partially or wholly provided by a fee charged to the patient.”
The proposal will be debated at the British Medical Association’s local medical committee conference on June 14 to 15.
The idea comes amid widespread criticism for GPs over their high salaries. About a third of their pay now comes from bonuses for meeting targets on objectives such as reducing disease.
Last month it was revealed that GPs’ salaries rose almost 25% to £100,170 under the first full year of the new GP contract.
Dr Andrew Green, a GP from Hedon, Yorkshire, told the Daily Mail people who wanted appointments in the evening could afford to pay for them.
He said: “They are going to be people in employment, almost by definition, and to ask them to bear the extra costs seems reasonable.
“I do not think a fee of £15 to £20 would be exorbitant. This should not be paid for from general taxation.”

(I work for a news agency - this story won't hit the papers until tomorrow UK time)

[Rabbit]

The "free health in the UK" seems to be getting chipped away more and more:

STORM OVER GPs’ PLAN TO CHARGE EVENING PATIENTS
By James Watson,
Patients who want to see a GP in the evening should face a £20 charge, according to a group of doctors.
The charge would apply only to routine appointments made in advance and not to out-of-hours emergencies, which would still be handled by local primary care trusts.
But the idea has provoked anger from patients’ groups, which have branded it a “scandal”.
The motion, put forward by a group of family doctors from around the country, states: “Resources for routine care outside core hours should be partially or wholly provided by a fee charged to the patient.”
The proposal will be debated at the British Medical Association’s local medical committee conference on June 14 to 15.
The idea comes amid widespread criticism for GPs over their high salaries. About a third of their pay now comes from bonuses for meeting targets on objectives such as reducing disease.
Last month it was revealed that GPs’ salaries rose almost 25% to £100,170 under the first full year of the new GP contract.
Dr Andrew Green, a GP from Hedon, Yorkshire, told the Daily Mail people who wanted appointments in the evening could afford to pay for them.
He said: “They are going to be people in employment, almost by definition, and to ask them to bear the extra costs seems reasonable.
“I do not think a fee of £15 to £20 would be exorbitant. This should not be paid for from general taxation.”

(I work for a news agency - this story won't hit the papers until tomorrow UK time)


Yes, but remember in NZ you pay $40 for a normal doctors visit and also for tests - this can be several $100 dollars, this is not so in the UK.

Personally, I find the NZ system better, it stops it getting clogged up with minor medical complaints.

[Rabbit]

I hear what you say about opinion and hard fact Ana&Steve. Rabbit has mentioned higher taxes a couple of times so I had a look at tax calculators.

Income Taxes
NZ http://www.ird.govt.nz/calculators/keyword/individualincometax/calculator-tax-rate.html

UK http://www.listentotaxman.com/

Since the average migrant will be earning a bit more than average in the UK (higher skills) I used an income of £30,000. That's $NZ79,800 at today's rate.

UK tax payable is £7,979 (26.6% of gross pay goes in income taxes)
NZ tax payable is $22,392 (28.1% of gross pay goes in income taxes)

Then there's purchasing tax.

UK VAT runs at 17.5%.
NZ GST is 12.5%.

What about house taxes

UK Stamp duty on an average £200,000 home is £3000.
If people are skilled and want to live in an above average £300,000 home, stamp duty would be £9,000.

NZ Stamp Duty is zero.

Council Taxes

I live in a smallish three bedroom house and pay over £2,000 a year in council taxes. My understanding is that I'd probably pay less than £1,000 on a similar house in NZ.

Fuel Duty

NZ petrol costs $1.52 per litre. I filled up at ASDA in the UK yesterday for $2.55 (95.9p) per litre. So obviously fuel taxes are lower in NZ too.

The Whole Picture

Taxation in NZ is not higher than in the UK. The opposite is probably true.

Actually, the tax burdens are similar:

http://www.cis.org.au/IssueAnalysis/IA87/ia87.pdf

especially, when you use an average.

What did they used to say: damned lies and statistics.

For a higher rate UK taxpayer, I would suggest it is not so simple, especially, when you consider allowances for pensions provision, ISAs etc.

Also, remember your starting salary will be much less than in the UK.

So, yes the tax take will be the same, but your disposable income will be less, and even more so if you are in a higher rate tax bracket e.g. above the average.


Employer pensions are a pitance here, and tax free allowances are negilable.

The older you become, making provision for later years becomes more important.

[able]

Able - You are correct on a lot of things there but some things to point out that maybe relevant:
- Unfortunately most employers in NZ don't take your UK wage and multiply it by the exchange rate

Thanks for your comment Incredible Hulse. I'm not trying to say people will be better off financially in NZ. Most people aren't going to NZ to get rich. What I'm trying to show is that taxes in NZ aren't higher than the UK as had been claimed. If we take your example of "most employers in NZ don't take your UK wage and multiply it by the exchange rate" you're right. New Zealand employers will pay less than this on average.

Let's say your UK salary of £30,000 ends up as being NZ$60,000.

In the UK 26.6% of gross pay goes in income taxes

In NZ 24.4% of gross pay will go in income taxes

You're right that there are no tax free ISA's in NZ but would you rather ISAs came to New Zealand but the cost would be the introduction of stamp duty and a £9,000 tax bill every time you move house?

Pensions in the UK are tax exempt on input. In NZ they're tax exempt on output. There's no difference between the two financially.

I still think there's no case to say taxation in NZ is higher than the UK as had been claimed.

[Rabbit]

Thanks for your comment Incredible Hulse. I'm not trying to say people will be better off financially in NZ. Most people aren't going to NZ to get rich. What I'm trying to show is that taxes in NZ aren't higher than the UK as had been claimed. If we take your example of "most employers in NZ don't take your UK wage and multiply it by the exchange rate" you're right. New Zealand employers will pay less than this on average.

Let's say your UK salary of £30,000 ends up as being NZ$60,000.

In the UK 26.6% of gross pay goes in income taxes

In NZ 24.4% of gross pay will go in income taxes

You're right that there are no tax free ISA's in NZ but would you rather ISAs came to New Zealand but the cost would be the introduction of stamp duty and a £9,000 tax bill every time you move house?

Pensions in the UK are tax exempt on input. In NZ they're tax exempt on output. There's no difference between the two financially.

I still think there's no case to say taxation in NZ is higher than the UK as had been claimed.

You can now earn £4,895 (up from £4,795) in the UK before paying income tax.

The allowance rises to £7,090 (£6,830) for the 65 to 74-year-old age band and £7,220 (£6,950) for 75s and over.

These age-related allowances start to disappear when total income hits £19,500.

The 10% tax band is stretched from the first £2,020 to £2,090 while the 40% top tax rate starts at £32,400 - up from £31,400.

It is possible to put 215k into a pension tax free with compound capital growth on the tax portion of the contribution.

Perhaps you should factor these things into the equation?

So...let's try just one scenario....

Mr immigrant aged 43 moves to NZ with his two little children. The income is less and very limited pension provision in NZ and he cannot afford to make decent pension provision. However, the sceneray is great and the family can just get by and go camping with long walks on the beach. The Salary is less, but he thinks the tax take is about the same, and at the end of the day it is quality of life that matters.

Mr Immigrant reaches 65, little pension provision, but he did do well back in the motherland and he now has a fund back home of say 200k.

Mr Immigrant draws his pension based on an UK annuity - say 8k pa.

In NZ he will be taxed on the first dollar of income whilst back in the motherland he would have a tax free allowance and hardly pay any tax at all.

I can think of a number of other scenarios.

Unfortunately, we are all not average, and there are potentially winners who break even and some loosers.

As I keep saying, it is all relative, especially to your own situation.

IMHO

Rabbit

[incredible hulse]

Thanks for your comment Incredible Hulse. I'm not trying to say people will be better off financially in NZ. Most people aren't going to NZ to get rich. What I'm trying to show is that taxes in NZ aren't higher than the UK as had been claimed. If we take your example of "most employers in NZ don't take your UK wage and multiply it by the exchange rate" you're right. New Zealand employers will pay less than this on average.

Let's say your UK salary of £30,000 ends up as being NZ$60,000.

In the UK 26.6% of gross pay goes in income taxes

In NZ 24.4% of gross pay will go in income taxes

You're right that there are no tax free ISA's in NZ but would you rather ISAs came to New Zealand but the cost would be the introduction of stamp duty and a £9,000 tax bill every time you move house?

Pensions in the UK are tax exempt on input. In NZ they're tax exempt on output. There's no difference between the two financially.

I still think there's no case to say taxation in NZ is higher than the UK as had been claimed.
Abel - I'm not disputing that direct taxation rates are lower in the UK. Personally think they are pretty similar for average earners between the 2 countries - wether that equates to more money in your pocket depends on your personal circumstances. Lower earners are probably better off in the UK (taxation wise) due to the tax free allowance and lower tax rates initially.
My point on tax on savings was not talking about ISA's - it was to do with the fact that even people who do not have a wage still pay tax on savings; the link to stamp duties being introduced because of ISAs is a bit far fetched I feel also.
The pension argument is valid as the lack of investment from employers into staff pensions, allied with high fund charges, no immediate tax relief and taxation on yearly fund profits is causing a huge black hole for many in terms of retirement funds, currently covered by property investment by kiwis. This I think will more likely lead to the introduction of stamp duty (to try and rain in the house inflation making housing unobtainable to first time buyers in a worse way than even the UK) than tax incentives on savings

[mclarity]

I thought $60-$65K was good money in NZ, I mean "buy-a-house" money?!

Whilst living in NZ last year we thought about buying a house and our financial reality was as follows:

Based on the probable purchase price of a similar house to that which we were renting (neat, 3 bedrooms, small garden, garage, Lower Hutt Wellington)

Purchase price: $350,000
Deposit at around 15% $50,000 –
Required mortgage $300,000

Monthly mortgage cost $2100,00
(Interest rate 7,5%, 30 year mortgage)

This meant that our monthly housing cost (excluding rates & taxes) would have been just over 50% of my net income. My salary was $75000,00 per annum which meant just over $4000,00 net per month. No 13th cheque, no employer pension contribution, minimal employer medical aid contribution.

[Happyfeet]

Just to let you know this is actually what the taxation situation is here in NZ:


$0 to $38,000 - 19.5% tax
$38,001 to $60,000 - 33% tax
$60,001 to $65,238 - 39% tax

[barryp]

Pensions in the UK are tax exempt on input. In NZ they're tax exempt on output. There's no difference between the two financially.

I'm still trying to figure this out. Intuitively, tax exempt on input seems far better for two reasons:
(1) Pure time-value-of-money benefit. Your pension will grow more because you're putting in more upfront, thereby letting compounding help you more. The percentage growth would not differ, of course.
(2) Bracket benefit. Most people are in lower tax brackets when they draw down their pensions than when they pay into them.

I'm thinking about setting up a defined-contribution plan similar to the one I had in the US, but am really having a hard time with the tax shenanigans involved and IMO unconscionably high fees/charges. No wonder so many people prefer to invest in real estate.

[eternalkiwi]

The limit in employer supported superannuation/pension schemes is arguably a result of Government tax policy which penalises companies that do this,
(Fringe Benefit Tax).

The new PIE regime, due to be introduced in October 07, will help reduce some of the issues related to the tax treatment of many pension schemes. This will be achieved by allowing savers to claim tax credits for the tax paid by fund managers on their investments.

The new government promoted, but not government guaranteed, pension scheme (Kiwisaver) will have low management fees. These have been estimated to vary between 0.8 - 1.5% per year.

Kiwisaver also has limited tax relief for employers who contribute, though no immediate tax relief for employees. The trade off for employees is that they will be eligible to keep an additional Government contribution if they keep their money in the scheme until they reach the Government Superannuation age (currently 65 though this may be extended).

Shawn

[MarkS]

Pensions in the UK are tax exempt on input. In NZ they're tax exempt on output. There's no difference between the two financially.

Unfortunately not quite true. That would be the case if all other things remained equals (so Barry, your point 1 above isn't right - multiplying numbers in any order still gives the same result), but in NZ you have to pay tax on the growth of the fund, whereas it's tax free in the UK. That has a pretty disasterous effect on the value of the fund after a few decades.

Barry's point on bracket benefit is quite right though, and means that UK pensions are not particularly good deals for lower rate taxpayers.

I agree with able's point overall though, taxation in NZ is not much different from taxation in the UK at all. Of course, that's all a bit irrelevant - the comparison that actually matters is your after-tax income versus your cost of living.

My own personal experience here is that the reduction in takehome pay is pretty evenly matched by the reduction in the cost of living. It's also the case that we should be able to pay the mortgage off here far, far earlier than we would in the UK - that will save us a stupendous amount of money over the next 20 years. But that's just me - everyone's situation is of course different.

As for KiwiSaver, I don't believe for a moment that you'll actually see management fees of anything like 0.8% for an equity based investment. Precious few pension schemes in the UK get below 1.2% or so, and that's a far bigger market with bigger economies of scale.

Personally, I doubt I'll join KiwiSaver. The tax benefits are just too small to compensate you for your money being locked up for so long. I very much doubt the management fees will be particularly attractive. And once it's locked up, it's subject to the whim of the government - just look at how pension legislation has been messed around with over the last 20 years in the UK.

[Rabbit]

The challenge remains, NZ is not competitive on this front e.g. AUS, UK.

$1000 dollars a year tax relief in NZ, $150,000 in Aus, versus $600,000 in the UK.

Kiwisaver is a good start, together with the other initiatives to shift the investment base away from property towards a more balanced portfolio.

The tax take may be similar, but the issue remains with how that tax take is redistributed. Social systems depend on the redistribution of wealth; low earners are often dependent on it in terms of tax credits.

For professional people who work hard, in Australia and the UK they have a choice, in terms of how much of their earned income is contributed to tax and redistribution, that is not the case in NZ.

The current reward system favours property investors and currency speculators unfavourably and that needs to change - not only for the affluent who support other asset classes but also the poor who cannot afford to get on the property ladder or provide for their old age.

Other forms of saving are punitively punished.

In terms of new immigrants, this happens after their four year exemption, or when they retire.

The stick needs to be pointed at property investors and the carrot needs to be given to workers and savers, it is slowly getting there, but there is still a way to go for NZ to compete.

I read somewhere that 20% of NZ property owners have a second property, so the attempt to secure investment in other asset classes is well overdue.

Sofar we have the challenge of the nanny state, low incomes, dependency on tax credits, and no way out of increasing provision for old age, which the more affluent will eventually pay for (a very small percentage of the population).

No wonder 600 familes per week head off to Aus and many younger people head of globally in attempt to secure a nest egg for the future.

Meanwhile the 100% pure campaign continues to draw in immigrants who bring in offshore capital and keep the ship afloat.

Rabbit.

IMHO - Sorry for appearing radical, but some big economic and social changes are still required to support an NZ future.

Rabbit

[constablechuck]

Yes, if people in NZ would invest in more liquid investments like stocks instead of property then there would be less demand for property bringing the house prices down, while at the same time infusing cash into the economy to generate more businesses and jobs.

I think the outcome would create better paying jobs, lower housing costs and a better standard of living for the average kiwi.

[able]

Unfortunately not quite true. That would be the case if all other things remained equals (so Barry, your point 1 above isn't right - multiplying numbers in any order still gives the same result), but in NZ you have to pay tax on the growth of the fund, whereas it's tax free in the UK. That has a pretty disasterous effect on the value of the fund after a few decades.

Yes, you're right. I was comparing a situation in which all other things were equal - then the two are identical.

What tax is paid on pension fund growth in New Zealand?

It isn't strictly tax free in the UK any more because there's a 10 percent tax on dividends in pension funds.

[barryp]

Mark, my point was that the time value of money effect creates a delta between pretax and posttax contributions. Most people who have money to invest in shares do so regularly, as part of an ordinary budget. The gross periodic contributions are therefore fixed or close to it. The result is that a given fund amount is hit sooner in a pre-tax context than in a post-tax context, therefore that same amount can compound over a longer period of time before drawdown starting on the same date.

For a fixed sum of money deposited at a given fixed time, there would be no difference between the tax options. But that's not how most people invest.

I object to Kiwisaver on the grounds that it's useless for median income folks, to whom 4% of gross salary is not necessarily free for investment. And it's already showing unintended negative consequences ("Pay rise? We're matching your kiwisaver starting next year, bub, there's your pay rise.")

At least people who participate and then leave NZ can get their money out after a year.

[MarkS]

It isn't strictly tax free in the UK any more because there's a 10 percent tax on dividends in pension funds.

Well, even more strictly, there's a 10% tax credit that can no longer be reclaimed! :)

The result is that a given fund amount is hit sooner in a pre-tax context than in a post-tax context, therefore that same amount can compound over a longer period of time before drawdown starting on the same date.

I don't think I understand your point? If the choice is purely between paying a given percentage in tax on the way in, or the same given percentage in tax on the way out, then there's no difference. Paying tax on the way out does indeed mean that a given fund amount is hit sooner, but then you just have more tax to pay!

Finally:


Other forms of saving are punitively punished.


Absolute rubbish. If you want to look for example of punitive taxation, look at how you can be charged up to 85% of the value of your UK pension fund if you transfer to a non-approved scheme. That's punitive.

I completely agree that the tax system in NZ has some ridiculous distortions, that there's not much tax relief on offer on KiwiSaver compared to other countries, and that there's plenty that NZ could learn from the outside world. But (and I'm assuming you're mainly referring to the new FIF rules) to describe a tax of a maximum of 1.7% on a portfolio that could easily have returned 15% per year over the last few years as punitive really is over-sensationalizing!

[eternalkiwi]

Currently growth in investment funds is usually taxed like any other business income, at 33%. The new PIE regime will enable some relief by reducing the tax to the new corporate rate for most people and also allowing people to benefit from receiving regular tax credits from their investment funds.

In addition to having to keep your money locked up in Kiwisaver until you are eligible for Government Superannuation (rather than 50-55 that most other superannuation schemes require), if for any reason you decide that Kiwisaver is not the right fund for you, such as changes government have made to the scheme or you wish to leave NZ, you will loose the government tax credits and kickstart contributions. Anything left over this amount will be returned to you by Inland Revenue.

The Kiwisaver management fees will be set at the lowest wholesale rates currently available for the largest employer super schemes in NZ, therefore the 0.8 - 1.5% is what the Government are stating will be the fee range.

Default Kiwisaver Schemes will have a majority of the funds invested in fixed interest and other similar products, to ensure they will generate a stable low risk return with a minimal management fee.

Shawn

[Rabbit]

So, comming back to the original question :- can we live on these wages..

1) What is your definition of 'live' is it maintain a materialistic or non-materialistic lifestyle or just exist.....

2) Is it a comparision of transplanting your current lifestyle into a new culture and environment only to reap additional benefits?

3) Is it about a life change, e.g. sacrificing one thing for something else that may make your sole more happy?

So, what is important to one person may mean totally something else to another?

I think what we can all agree on is that there is a motivation for comming to NZ, what ever that is. Also, for some, if not all, this means a compromise, one opportunity versus another.

Better to do that with open eyes and managed expectations, rather than rose coloured spectacles.

In life, like most things, there are no silver bullets.

Ultimately, a question of personal choice to be somewhere and accept it for what it really is - and we are lucky to have that opportunity.

So, is the question, can you afford to just exist, live your current lifestyle, or find a better one than the one you have now.

It is tough, but sometimes there is only one way to find out - try it.

[nippa&pippa]

So, comming back to the original question :- can we live on these wages..

It is tough, but sometimes there is only one way to find out - try it.

:yes Been there and done it at less than $42K with four of us. We did and still managed it. To be honest, my OH and I prefer our life in NZ with low wages (still then, would be like to have more pay) rather than in UK with better pay.