[jess]

"The New Zealand Government has proposed a major shift in immigration policy to target skilled migrants in countries like India and China in a bid to address key labour shortages in areas like IT.

The proposed move is part of a major overhaul of immigration policy designed to ensure New Zealand competes with other OECD countries for skilled migrants."
Full story here (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200702230856/nz_govt_wants_to_target_it_workers_in_india_and_ch ina).

[stu70]

I had mentioned in one of my previous notes about the impact of growing economic clout of Asian economies and the ramifications on countries that depend on immigrants to fund their future pension plans as well as economic success (NZ,Canada, etc). It appears NZ is taking proactive steps to recruit SMC folks by going to the source instead of just waiting and watching.

I would suggest a more "wholesome" approach though; why not actively encourage and support people who live in these countries and would be willing to have more babies? I am not suggesting stop the immigration. But it is foolish not to look at a multi-pronged approach to this HR issue. Let couples have some financial incentives (longer mat leaves, guarantee of a job upon return to workforce, child tax credits, baby bonus for couples etc.)and help them grow the future "foot soldiers" all made right in their own countries..

[Scibby]

Since my degree is not in I.T. but I am in the field it looks like my best window of oportunity to get an I.T. job offer is less then 18 months when I expect the market would be flooded with Chinese and Indian candidates. Time to stop lurking the boards and move forward.:roll

[Avalon]

Dont suppose they would consider putting the IT wages up instead and actually managing to retain some staff ???? Or is that too sensible :laugh

[zardell]

Dont suppose they would consider putting the IT wages up instead and actually managing to retain some staff ???? Or is that too sensible :laugh



:nice1


And any other skilled persons wage, come to that.


Julie

xx

[Mr TW]

Since my degree is not in I.T. but I am in the field it looks like my best window of oportunity to get an I.T. job offer is less then 18 months when I expect the market would be flooded with Chinese and Indian candidates. Time to stop lurking the boards and move forward.:roll

I know exactly how you feel Scibby. This, in my opinion is not good news.

However I have to say that I have applied for quite a few jobs with two employers I am keen to work for and I've been turned down cos I'm not in the country. It seems NZIS and employers need to get their heads together. They have a shortage, but obviously aren't THAT desperate to fill it!

[The Hodges]

And any other skilled persons wage, come to that.

That gets my votes. :clap

[barryp]

It will be interesting to see if Government efforts to recruit from places where English is not the first language are successful. There is a clear and persistent shortage of IT labour here - that isn't just hype. But there is also a widespread reluctance to hire people who aren't fluent in English, or who are fluent but heavily accented. I'm not willing to label that as simple racism quite yet, though perhaps that's all it is. It's a touchy subject, widely but quietly discussed.

Prior policies were overtly discriminatory against Chinese and Indian software professionals on the grounds that those two labour markets were not comparable. Utter rubbish, and the policy was finally updated to reflect reality a little better. Pursuing talent in those two countries is the logical next step.

[stu70]

The problem whether racism exists or not is a rather moot one. Highly sought after IT skills are really quite mobile today. In North America an average IT wage lies anywhere between 80k-200k(I know a wide range but so are the IT skills). If NZ does not offer similar wages, they might get the folks alright but these people just won't stick around very long.

[jen]

From the Dominion Post (wellington newspaper) this morning:

The number of vacancies for information technology workers and contractors is set to grow steadily this year, according to a survey of recruiters conducted by the Information Technology Contract and Recruitment Association. All expected more jobs to be filled by applicants from overseas this year, with most saying foreign candidates will fill at least 20% of jobs. ITCRA president Richard Manthel says the market is "very buoyant" and there is no sign of this changing. "Some specialist roles in the IT sector have been vacant for nine months with no relief in sight."

Also interesting is today's headline "Maori call for migrant cutback". I don't know the background to this, but as far as I can make out from the story, some leaders of the Maori party seem to be accusing the government of recruiting immigrants as a means of diluting the voting power of the expanding maori/pacific/asian population?!

Jen

[Trigirl]

If NZ does not offer similar wages, they might get the folks alright but these people just won't stick around very long.

I think that’s a slightly simplistic view. NZ wages are lower than other countries but most people moving here already know that and believe that the country offers them other things that compensate for that wage gap. Some people will always think money is the most important thing in the world. But for many coming to NZ the potential improvement in quality of life is equally important.

If you are in a wage bracket where you are unable to support yourself or your family then that’s a different matter. Quality of life is severely compromised by not being able to make ends meet and the stress that brings. But for most skilled IT workers – even with NZ’s lower wages that’s simply not the case.

I’m not saying that higher wages wouldn’t bring more people - they no doubt would to a certain extent. But not everyone here is going to leave just because they can get a payrise by moving back overseas.

[stu70]

I think that’s a slightly simplistic view. NZ wages are lower than other countries but most people moving here already know that and believe that the country offers them other things that compensate for that wage gap. Some people will always think money is the most important thing in the world. But for many coming to NZ the potential improvement in quality of life is equally important.

If you are in a wage bracket where you are unable to support yourself or your family then that’s a different matter. Quality of life is severely compromised by not being able to make ends meet and the stress that brings. But for most skilled IT workers – even with NZ’s lower wages that’s simply not the case.

I’m not saying that higher wages wouldn’t bring more people - they no doubt would to a certain extent. But not everyone here is going to leave just because they can get a payrise by moving back overseas.

I agree. Well put

[Avalon]

I think that’s a slightly simplistic view. .

Possibly not. Its not just people leaving for overseas to get better pay that is an issue. According to an article in teh Dom Post Earlier this year (no link to it im afraid) - IT employees speciafially are considered to be "Long Service Employees" once they have been in place for a year.

Retention of staff is a huge issue: whether its morale, money or something else - employees are moving on rapidly. We have been here just over 2 years and hubby is on his 3rd job already! And its not just migrants doing it. Most of the people he knows doing similar jobs are also moving around from company to company as its the only way they can stay motivated and get payrises.

From a company point of view - its costing thousands every time a they lose an employee and have to get a new one. Thats in lost time, recruitment fees, re-training fees.

All because they wont value the staff they have:no

[incredible hulse]

Possibly not. Its not just people leaving for overseas to get better pay that is an issue. According to an article in teh Dom Post Earlier this year (no link to it im afraid) - IT employees speciafially are considered to be "Long Service Employees" once they have been in place for a year.

Retention of staff is a huge issue: whether its morale, money or something else - employees are moving on rapidly. We have been here just over 2 years and hubby is on his 3rd job already! And its not just migrants doing it. Most of the people he knows doing similar jobs are also moving around from company to company as its the only way they can stay motivated and get payrises.

From a company point of view - its costing thousands every time a they lose an employee and have to get a new one. Thats in lost time, recruitment fees, re-training fees.

All because they wont value the staff they have:no

Couldn't agree more Avalon; I am just coming up to a year here and have been at 2 places and would go to a third if there was any suitable jobs out there. Unfortunately the IT market I am in is very small and what there is is paying peanuts compared to the world market. I'm agree that lifestyle is very important but think sometimes this is ramped up a bit when talking about NZ to be honest - the kiwi working week is one of the longest in OECD countries yet their wages are some of the lowest. I personally would prefer to work hard for my 37 hour week and get paid more for it than work the 42 I currently am and feel bored, un-challenged technically and have to work a year to provide me with the living standard I can get from 5 months work in London.

[Trigirl]

i certainly agree that IT turnover is a huge issue. and a rise in wages might help a bit.

some other thoughts though. educated kiwis will go and do their OE - my guess is that they'll go and do it anyway even if wages were higher. if i was brought up in this tiny little corner of the planet, was in my early twenties, and had the skills that would let me explore a bit more of it - maybe work in london with europe on my doorstep - i'd jump at the chance. money is an issue but not the only one.

for migrants coming in, there is often pressure to get a job very quickly. this can end up with people taking jobs below their level or even at their level but with poor salaries. OH was offered one of these - his first job offer when we got here. a job he could do standing on his head for not very much money (contract rates). funnily enough once they realised he was going to look around and not jump at the first job offer they upped their rates by over 30%. some people will try and take advantage of new arrivals. hence there can be a fairly quick turnover from first to second role as people settle in and realise what they are worth and what is out there.

(by the way that was just a comment on our personal experience and not intended to be a comment on either avalon's husbands or incredible hulse's position - before anyone gets cross with me!)

[Avalon]

hence there can be a fairly quick turnover from first to second role as people settle in and realise what they are worth and what is out there.

(by the way that was just a comment on our personal experience and not intended to be a comment on either avalon's husbands or incredible hulse's position - before anyone gets cross with me!)

Not gonna get cross :laugh At the end of the day - often all you can do is speak from your own experience - the longer you stay here - the wider that gets :yes

Just want to clarify - high turnover isnt of just Migrant staff - its ALL staff.

Born and bred Kiwis arent staying in post any longer than my OH is - in fact they seem to be swapping jobs as often as not (which makes for interesting coffee breaks it seems!)

I guess that seems to be the real issue - its not just about what we see as migrants - its what the home workforce is finding too. We are actually less likely to leave NZ than they are - because we fought so hard to get here.

[Trigirl]

I guess that seems to be the real issue - its not just about what we see as migrants - its what the home workforce is finding too. We are actually less likely to leave NZ than they are - because we fought so hard to get here.

totally agreed.

one thing that is interesting in IT (in the UK as well as here) is the impact of the high use of contractors. contracting isn't so prevalent in other jobs - as an accountant i can do it a bit but the contract IT market is enormous, pays very well (even here!) and tends to attract people away from permanent jobs while the market is strong as it is now - making life very difficult for employers and adding to high staff turnover problems.

[incredible hulse]

OH was offered one of these - his first job offer when we got here. a job he could do standing on his head for not very much money (contract rates). funnily enough once they realised he was going to look around and not jump at the first job offer they upped their rates by over 30%. Good point Mandy - my one big recommendation to anyone coming in is watch the IT agents over here (apologies to anyone in advance who is one ;) )but they are real sharks over here. I've contracted for many years in UK and OZ without issues and the agents in my experience with try and take between 8-14%, and are usually open on commission, etc. I have found that the agents I've dealt with here have not been so open. My current contract was offered to me at 20 dollars less an hour than I finally accepted and I thought I had got a good deal bumping the rate up- since found that he is still taking 20 bucks an hour off me/close on to 20% ! I can't believe his opening offer was for nearly 40% commission (thats for a monthly pay cycle as well)- My advise would be to ask them straight up what their margin is and if they don't tell you they're probably not worth dealing with.

[Darkrider]

I work for an IT company in the UK who has in the past employed staff in India. If you think IT staff in the UK and Europe do not stay with an employer long, well these people take the biscuit! As far as they are concerned it is totally all about money and as soon as they have been allocated a desk they are looking for their next position.

[KerryS]

totally agreed.

one thing that is interesting in IT (in the UK as well as here) is the impact of the high use of contractors. contracting isn't so prevalent in other jobs - as an accountant i can do it a bit but the contract IT market is enormous, pays very well (even here!) and tends to attract people away from permanent jobs while the market is strong as it is now - making life very difficult for employers and adding to high staff turnover problems.


I left permanent to go contracting, simply because the rates made it more attractive. I was working at an excellent company, but they just couldn't retain me at a salary I could get when working as a contractor.
It's a shame, because money is not one of my primary career drivers and I'd much rather be working for an ethical company who value their staff and the skills they are able to provide.
I've been in my current contract 9 months and am about to move on again. I've seen half the perm staff here change in that time, and they did offer me a perm post, but again were unable to give a realistic offer to tempt me away from the contracting market...

[Trigirl]

I left permanent to go contracting, simply because the rates made it more attractiveIt's a shame, because money is not one of my primary career drivers

those two statements dont really add up to me i'm afraid. nowhere in the world pays permie staff contractor rates.

[Avalon]

Hubby has just signed a temproray contract till the company get get it's HR dept to find a pen and sign the Perm. Contract.

REALLY nice hourly rate:D We are beginning to wonder if they will do the contract on a long term basis :D

[veronica]

can someone in the IT industry help me out here and give an idea of the hourly rate to expect for some of the different types of IT jobs, upper and lower figures, and whats the multi media situation there. have friends interested and they are having a problem getting an idea of the amounts involved. If you don't want to put figures in the open forum but don't mind sharing then PM me, thanks

[KerryS]

those two statements dont really add up to me i'm afraid. nowhere in the world pays permie staff contractor rates.


I suppose what I wrote did sound contracdictory - I was writing in a rush yesterday. What I was trying to say was the fact that I can earn 3 times as much by contracting is obviously going to be a lure away from a permanent post. And when you're offered 12 month contracts (and longer in some instances) it is ridiculous to turn them down in loyalty to a company, no matter how wonderful they may have been!
Stating that money is not one of my primary career driver is exactly that - I didn't start working in IT because of the money, and it's not the reason I remain in it. I am motivated and driven by other factors at a much higher level than simply the financial ones, which come low on the list when deciding whether to take a position when I am offered one. However, obviously remuneration does need to be taken into account, and I would rather be poor and happy than rich and unhappy.

The fact that companies can't even begin to match the rates offered to contractors is problematic. How can they retain decent staff when recruiters are constantly bombarding them with amazing offers elsewhere? What do companies have to do to retain people - pay them a decent rate in the first place...

Veronica there is a website which publicises the rates for IT staff in Australia and NZ here:
http://www.hays.com.au/salary/pdfs06...Technology.pdf

[Trigirl]

Wow - fair enough – if someone offered to triple my salary by contracting I’d think about it too!

I would rather be poor and happy than rich and unhappy my thoughts exactly, although perhaps reasonably well off and happy v very well off and unhappy would be a better description. i think its fair to say very few people in IT are actually having to choose to be "poor" in order to stay in their permanent roles!

OH was offered about 50% more to contract than for a permanent role. He chose the permanent role because it was more interesting/challenging and was something he actually wanted to do. He could have done the contract work standing on his head but he’d have been bored. And I chose my role on the basis it was something that looked interesting – not for the salary it offered. We didn’t come here to be unhappy at work or chase the $s – we’ve both done far too much of that in London. On the other hand – partly because we are both working and there’s only us to support, that’s a choice we can make reasonably easily.

[Trigirl]

oh by the way i clcked on your link and couldn't get it to work? i think this might be the link through to the one you meant though? http://www.hays.com.au/salary/

i'd not seen these before - the accountancy/professional practices ones look really interesting - thank you!

[Avalon]

can someone in the IT industry help me out here and give an idea of the hourly rate to expect for some of the different types of IT jobs, upper and lower figures, and whats the multi media situation there. have friends interested and they are having a problem getting an idea of the amounts involved. If you don't want to put figures in the open forum but don't mind sharing then PM me, thanks

Im not sure it will help - but hubby just got $120 an hour. Now - while we all choke on our flat whites :D - hes basically got it cos its a 4 week contract, its a specialist field (Security), and they desperately need him yesterday. (though hed LOVE to do this contract at that rate for a whole 12 months - and id love him too as well :D )

Hes been told that rates for thsi kind of work range at the moment from 80-140 an hour, but probably only god would get 140 right now.

Another "rule of thumb" he was given is that if you want to look at employed rates at say $90k a year - you should ask for contract rates of $90/hr.

Anyone else heard that?

[barryp]

That's been rule-of-thumb for years all over the world - if you're a solo practitioner, figure your hourly rate times one thousand equals an equivalent salary. You have at least 2000 hours per year you might bill, but almost no one solo is 100% billable, and in any event one of the perks of contracting is being able to take extended holidays or childcare leaves without guilt.

From what I see in Wgtn contractor's marketplace, that rule still holds. Long-term, low-stress contractors in IT usually come in with a hefty agency markup (almost never under 20%) and get at least 1000 hour parity.

The tradeoff in my group is that the three of us who are perm do all the high-visibility, amazingly fun work - and the contractors do most of the boring work, as well as face involuntary release every March/April as budgets grow tight.

Not sure what this has to do with immigration policy, but it's certainly relevant to many of us!

[incredible hulse]

Another "rule of thumb" he was given is that if you want to look at employed rates at say $90k a year - you should ask for contract rates of $90/hr.

Anyone else heard that?
I found UK rates corresponded roughly to that - contracting for around 500 a day led to permy offers of around 65k. In NZ my experience so far has not quite been the same - I have had permy offers coming in about 1.4 multiple but put this down to the fact that there is no "package" as such in NZ permy contracts that I have seen

[Annierobrigado]

"The New Zealand Government has proposed a major shift in immigration policy to target skilled migrants in countries like India and China in a bid to address key labour shortages in areas like IT.


The proposed move is part of a major overhaul of immigration policy designed to ensure New Zealand competes with other OECD countries for skilled migrants."
Full story here (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200702230856/nz_govt_wants_to_target_it_workers_in_india_and_ch ina).


i wonder why they keep looking to india and china (because they think the overpopulation means there's a wealth of professionals there) for professionals and then give the rest of asia a hard time going through the migration process, registering, and even looking for jobs (we need to have the "kiwi experience" before we can get jobs in our field of expertise) in nz. far as i know the deferred wtr - 6months policy is still in effect, which gives the migrant only 6 months to look for permanent job before the work visa can be upgraded to pr. and it's the catch-22 phrase again at work - many kiwi employers prefer employees with previous kiwi experience but how can we get experience if no one is hiring!

i wish they didn't have to recruit actively in selected countries at the expense of other countries with more reliable, more competent, more proficient in english skilled migrants. it's like that case of the girl who's madly in love with her best guy friend only to be taken for granted her whole life because the guy continues to and insists on looking far and wide for his dream girl, not knowing that girl is just right under his nose.

:roll
annie