[Jonathon1977]

I don't quite know how I feel about this one:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3973886a10.html

I can't articulate my feelings yet in words but I do know in time the words will come and I will update this thread with them.

Regards,

Jonathon

[Avalon]

"No, we aren't playing the race card, because we are not talking about Asian immigration.

Thats alright then :roll

[Moorf]

:laugh Woz came rushing in to the lounge about half an hour ago brandishing "The Press" and spitting feathers! Can't wait for this thread to develop!

Imagine writing that story in reverse and a white politician said "let's brown-down NZ society, there are too many brown people...." :no

[StevieD]

Ah Helen, you know that would never happen don't you?!!

[stu70]

We have similar issues (not exactly)that arise here too with the first nations folks. With that starts the whole discussion of who came first? Not sure how the historical wrongs of any sort can be ever fixed. How do you fix stolen culture/way of life that aboriginals had before Europeans arrived? Financial settlements are far from the cure. How do you compensate for marginalized communities around the Globe? How do you justify British "loot" of Asia where they went in for trade but did a lot more than trading?Just returning the loot (arts,jewels)won't cut it, would it now? And don't forget the slavery.

There was a time when "Europeans/whites" really ruled the world. Things are changing at a rather fast pace. I would not be surprised if "browns/asians" ruled it for the next few centuries starting now. What is inevitable is that "browning" of the world will happen, like it or not. Interesting times ahead.

[Nathan]

Selecting people based on their race, religion, nationality, sex, etc... seem a lot like bigotry to me.... in this case racism....
Being selective about age and health and job skills and crimnal record in understandable and, IMHO (OK, not so H!!), makes good sense. ...but picking someone because they have more pigment in their skin??!!

[Moorf]

*sound of keys being bashed in background as Woz fires out Letter to Editor*

The problem I have with it... *rummages around for rose-tinted-specs*... is that I thought we'd kinda gone past seeing people as a colour and see them based on their input, value to NZ society as a whole and ability to settle successfully...

As for "who was there first" - can you imagine if that was the case in the UK? We'd have land claims from the Scandanavians, Germans, French, Romans...

And as for Maori being the first here? I don't believe that's entirely true.. didn't they eat their way through the previous population of New Zealand or do I need to swat up a little more? :uhoh

[xanctus]

As far as I know in my entire life, asian usually called yellow...not brown :P:P:P

Anyway, joke aside...this article is really interesting.
Who cares who is coming, as long as we all can get along and contribute to NZ.

[stu70]

Who cares who is coming, as long as we all can get along and contribute to NZ.
:nice1

[Diny]

Now I really am keeping my thoughts on this one to myself or I'll end up with negative rep points !!!!

Diny

[Avalon]

Now I really am keeping my thoughts on this one to myself or I'll end up with negative rep points !!!!

Diny

You cant get negative points anymore - so feel free to vent away:D

(though we still do have to keep it clean or we get moderated;) )

[Ana&Steve]

Diny, there is no more negative rep....;)
Wow, this is such a huge explosive subject. I feel frustrated a lot here at home because of "reverse" racism. I've always been taught to ignore color/nationality, and it is difficult to stay the course when the media is always stirring up trouble. I think a leader needs to represent all people in the nation they are working for. I think Mrs Turia is very wrong for taking the stance she has; if she holds the position she does, she needs to care about the welfare of ALL Kiwis, and if it's important to her to have another Maori seat, being openly racist isn't going to warm the voters to her way of thinking.
I hope there isn't too much blowback from this, it's the kind of situation that sparks riots in the States.:uhoh
Ana

[Avalon]

I feel frustrated a lot here at home because of "reverse" racism.

Is it "reverse" racism or just plain racism though ???

Racism is racism. We need to stop thinking that Whites making such comments about non-whites are racist while non-whites making such comments about whites are somehow not so bad. Its all wrong.

The minute you make a decision or judgement based on the colour of someones skin - you cross a line - no matter which "colour" it favours. I know thats probably not the accepted version - but thats the way I look at it.

[Diny]

You cant get negative points anymore - so feel free to vent away:D

(though we still do have to keep it clean or we get moderated;) )

Yeah I know but you can bet one way or the other I'll ruffle some feathers.

Laying myself open to a fair bit of flak here, but I think this country IS in danger of being taken over by the whites and the Maori are getting less and less of a 'say' in things.

Now how about that for a bit of reverse racism with a huge dollop of hypocracy on top.

I agree that once the colour of a persons skin is brought into the discussion it can soon turn into an ugly arguement - and it's wrong. But the way I look at this situation is that it's more to do with culture than colour of skin.

Just my thoughts - live and let live - now there's a good idea.

Diny

[Ana&Steve]

Is it "reverse" racism or just plain racism though ???

Ya, I didn't know what else to call it w/o using too many words to emphasize my point:o
Ana

[stu70]

Just my thoughts - live and let live - now there's a good idea.

Diny


Who could ever argue with that. I concur 110%

[jubjub]

What they fail to mention is that the Maori roll is by choice, and not all Maori choose to go on it... http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425825/49059, there are a large number of maori not registered on that roll which means less seats than they would have if it were just a population head count allocation for seats.

I think they are, in part, trying to blame their lack of seats on someone else, and not themselves as a party. If the Maori party were inspriing confidence in those they are designed to represent then the roll numbers would be higher...

Just another thought to toss into the discussion!

[willsken]

What they fail to mention is that the Maori roll is by choice, and not all Maori choose to go on it... http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425825/49059, there are a large number of maori not registered on that roll which means less seats than they would have if it were just a population head count allocation for seats.

I think they are, in part, trying to blame their lack of seats on someone else, and not themselves as a party. If the Maori party were inspriing confidence in those they are designed to represent then the roll numbers would be higher...

Just another thought to toss into the discussion!

On the face of things this does seem to be a good point. :yes

[wiki]

Tariana Turia sees things with a very narrow frame. She's not thinking about Maori representation in general, only about her own party's chances. (thanks to NZ having a mixed member proportional voting system).

There's is nothing to stop Maori from standing as MPs in non-Maori seats. Their representative options aren't limited by only having seven "Maori Roll" seats.

A lot of Maori choose not to register on the Maori roll - particularly in the South Island. Because there are fewer Maori living in the South Island, there is only one Moari electorate: Te Tai Tonga. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather have an MP who represents me in a smaller region than that.

NZ has decided it needs a greater population to sustain it both now and in the future. Encouraging an increased birth rate isn't going to solve any problems now, and before that would make any difference there would have to be another major push in improving education and aspiration in Maori. The only option to solving skilled employment shortages in the short term is controled immigration.

Tariana Turia doesn't want any increase of non-Maori in NZ. It's not about skin colour - it's about anyone who cannot claim whanau descent. She'd be just as against African, Indian or Asian descent. Pacifika doesn't help her cause either.

What she should be concentrating on more is putting quality candidates of Maori descent in all electorates and ensuring they stand for policy which benefits the whole of NZ and not just a minority, no matter what their lineage.

[Croft]

Is it "reverse" racism or just plain racism though ???

Racism is racism. We need to stop thinking that Whites making such comments about non-whites are racist while non-whites making such comments about whites are somehow not so bad. Its all wrong.

The minute you make a decision or judgement based on the colour of someones skin - you cross a line - no matter which "colour" it favours. I know thats probably not the accepted version - but thats the way I look at it.

I agree completely with that Avalon.

My concern is the spin that may have been put on these comments by The Dominion Post. Have they been taken out of context?. I am always a little dubious of some of these stories; here in the UK where papers like the Daily Mail and the Sun/Mirror can escalate an issue out of all proportion - when you read the statements made by the people themselves you find they meant something else entirely.

Edited for spelling mistake.

[wiki]

My concern is the spin that may have been put on these comments by The Dominion Post. . Have they been taken out of context?. I am always a little dubious of some of these stories; here in the UK where papers like the Daily Mail and the Sun/Mirror can escalate an issue out of all proportion - when you read the statements made by the people themselves you find they meant something else entirely.


I'd better declare an interest here since I worked as a print journo in NZ and now in the UK.

NZ papers don't spin the way UK papers do - they don't have the same need to.

UK national papers are in competition with each other for the same readers so they tend to take sides on issues, particularly politics.

In NZ there is very little overlap between papers as most of them are regional and have a monopoly. Even when the Dom Post was two seperate papers they were owned by the same company (INL and then Fairfax) so didn't compete in the UK sense.

The original story with Turia's comments came from NZPA which is the national news agency. They supply every paper, radio station and TV channel in the country so all reports from them have to be balanced.

Turia did say those comments, and it's not the first time she's said them either.

[veronica]

thats it everybody, forget skin cancer and go out there and get a good deep tan.

The trouble with politics (especially on a local level like nz) is that often people forget that they are there for the purpose of representing others and see it as a power trip of their own. And Yep the maoris were immigrants there too, the first recorded people were the Moa Hunters and its likely they were of an earlier wave of immigrants from the pacific island too.

Wish that they would all get the idea that they are New Zealanders first rather than a race apart. Apparently that used to be much more the case 20/30 years ago.

[Croft]

I'd better declare an interest here since I worked as a print journo in NZ and now in the UK.

NZ papers don't spin the way UK papers do - they don't have the same need to.

UK national papers are in competition with each other for the same readers so they tend to take sides on issues, particularly politics.

In NZ there is very little overlap between papers as most of them are regional and have a monopoly. Even when the Dom Post was two seperate papers they were owned by the same company (INL and then Fairfax) so didn't compete in the UK sense.

The original story with Turia's comments came from NZPA which is the national news agency. They supply every paper, radio station and TV channel in the country so all reports from them have to be balanced.

Turia did say those comments, and it's not the first time she's said them either.


Many thanks for that wiki - I get fed up with many of the agendas which are very obviously being pushed in much of the UK media these days.

[Debbie P.]

One fascinating thing is how that attitude makes white people feel. I read the article and was spitting with indignation! But then it occurred to me that now I know how African, Caribbean and Asian imigrants in 1960s and 1970s UK must have felt (and probably do still feel in some cases). Also... am I right in suspecting that as a white British person in NZ, I may find it a little easier to find work than someone from an Asian background? Not saying that this is the case, just wondering, as I've picked up the occasional comment from people on this forum from Asian countries mentioning difficulties in getting professional work at the right level.

Agree with Avalon though, racism is still racism, no matter what the colour being discriminated against.

[Jonathon1977]

And it unfolds a bit more:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3974996a10.html

Regards,

Jonathon

[stu70]

"Many Canadians moved to this country after marrying a New Zealander. Or they come here because it's an interesting place, they see it doesn't have horrible winters, and they stay."

hmmmm, I don't think all Canadians choose to go to NZ just to escape winters here in Canada. I love snow, more the merrier. A lifestyle choice? perhaps yes. Change in the scenery? yes. An adventure? yeah that too. But not just to run away from the winters. We can always go and live in Florida. Florida is a Canadian province in the winter anyway.

[xanctus]

Also... am I right in suspecting that as a white British person in NZ, I may find it a little easier to find work than someone from an Asian background? Not saying that this is the case, just wondering, as I've picked up the occasional comment from people on this forum from Asian countries mentioning difficulties in getting professional work at the right level.

At some degree POSSIBLE/MORE LIKELY Debbie...but again, this is not just occurs on asian backgrounds. But more likely, people whom english is not the 1st language. For example, people from eastern euros (I have many friends from eastern euros still having hard time to find a job)
So when a company or agency start making a conversation, and first thing they heard these people with accent...maybe (again, I am just talking in general, not specifically accusing someone or something) that is the barrier of getting a job at the professional level. Even tho, lots of companies here in NZ is being politically correct when they rejects those applicants by saying..."no NZ experience".

[Avalon]

Dr Clydesdale said investment from immigrants had put the housing market out of reach of many Maori.

"Maori are disproportionately represented among those without housing, and low income groups."

Again - typical (utter) misrepresentation.

The housing market is being put out of reach of ALL new Zealanders - NOT just Maori.

While I think what Diny said about the effect of Culture is something worth looking at (but then it is highly protected here), it is NOT the fault of immigration that Maoris are in the lower socio-economic areas. How on earth does me coming here affect a Maori's ability to learn, study and become skilled? Whathever is causing this problem (which is very real and very serious) blaming it on migration is ridiculous. And it doesnt help.

OK, rant over

Hxxx

[nippa&pippa]

*sound of keys being bashed in background as Woz fires out Letter to Editor*



Will we see this letter to editor????? If had published in paper, show us!

[veronica]

Avalon once again you have put my thoughts into words, totally agree. its more to do with the 'hood' attitude than any lack of opportunity.

with employing people with limited or very accented english in a business environment, as an employer I would avoid it too. Last year we employed a french lad whose english was really good but there were often occasions when he had to hand the phone to me to take over as he couldn't grasp what the caller was saying or they couldn't understand him. that isn't good business sense as it often meant that he couldn't do part of the job, and it is a business. I will stress too that his english face to face was very good and he wan't too strongly accented. In the back packers too we have people who come through and although they are speaking english we have trouble understanding them purely because of the accent. Colour shouldn't come into it but english skills including accent should and do. After all would you employ someone that couldn't understand all the instructions they were given, or worse thought they understood and did a job differently because they hadn't interpreted it right.

[Croft]

Avalon once again you have put my thoughts into words, totally agree. its more to do with the 'hood' attitude than any lack of opportunity.

with employing people with limited or very accented english in a business environment, as an employer I would avoid it too. Last year we employed a french lad whose english was really good but there were often occasions when he had to hand the phone to me to take over as he couldn't grasp what the caller was saying or they couldn't understand him. that isn't good business sense as it often meant that he couldn't do part of the job, and it is a business. I will stress too that his english face to face was very good and he wan't too strongly accented. In the back packers too we have people who come through and although they are speaking english we have trouble understanding them purely because of the accent. Colour shouldn't come into it but english skills including accent should and do. After all would you employ someone that couldn't understand all the instructions they were given, or worse thought they understood and did a job differently because they hadn't interpreted it right.

I understand where you're coming from veronica. We deal a lot with helpdesk in India and sometimes I find it very difficult to deal with them over the phone as I'm unable to understand their English - not all but many. I have colleagues on my project who are of Indian descent but having been brought up in the UK they have perfect English accents and they're great! We've also found that they have a very different way of working which requires us to alter some of our practices to get the best results from them.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't about skin colour, but about making yourself understood when dealing with other people.