[nika]

Hello all,

I've been browsing around the forum for a while, looking for a thread with discussion on the topic, but in the end I decided to start a fresh one... So: we've been thinking with my wife of moving over to NZ from cold Finland :) in some years' time and a lot of what we've been reading on the forum looks really nice and positive! What attracts us especially is the certain similarity of the countries, considering nature, population and so on. I have some questions in mind, though.

What kind of atttitude do people have towards immigration and it's effects in general? Obviously there's been a lot of talk in EU countries of "closing borders" and preparing stricter control over who's let in the country, what should be tolerated etc.

In Finland for example, it's sad to see that any discussion of problems caused by immigration and - let's face it - particularily members of certain religious or ethnic groups is usually labelled either "racist", "xenophobic" (or any other -phobic that fits) and we're told that "multiculturalism enriches our society" or some bs like that. As to how exactly that is supposed to happen, there is fairly little concrete evidence, but certainly that must be true... What's worse, mostly the blame for any controversy is put on native Finns for being racist, or "uninformed" or what not, while crime rates (particularily rapes) are growing on par with immigration. What is the discussion around this topic like in NZ? A quick googling showed that at least your foreign minister (Winston Peters?) has presented some reasonably sensible sounding opinions, at least based on what I read quickly from the first article that came up.

In your opinion, should NZ expect to be facing similar problems in the future as those we're seeing today in France and the UK with massive (and sometimes illegal) immigration of uneducated and/or potentially unwilling-to-integrate people? Personally I feel that the growing numbers of islamic immigration and western governments' flawed policies that have led to all the problems they have today with islamic extremists and ethnic ghettos etc are perhaps the number one threat for the future of many European countries. I'd hate to see the same happen for Finland or NZ, as I believe the scope of these problems today is still considerably smaller. However, I'm afraid that at least according to the general political athmosphere in Finland, we'll be headed exactly the wrong direction.

[veronica]

I think that on the whole immigration is fairly controlled here although they do have a refugee catagory too. the attitude of the white nzer tends to be more tolerant than the maori as I think that although they maybe edgy about the numbers of asians that immigrate they also realise that the country is built on immigration and still needs the numbers.

It seems that the problems wtih immigration in the UK/Europe is it is a huge floating population that is not controlled in any way that I can see.

[tigerlily]

Interesting questions..
I see some irony, that you are concerned about immigrants overrunning NZ when, in fact, you shall be an immigrant there as well? Sorry, not intending to give offence- just noting what you and many others on this board have said as well.

If you look at history, human migration has been going on since the begining. Does it help economies? Does it increase violence? I'm not sure than any amount of study can give us an answer. Especially since scientists tend to find the answer that they want.

I'm coming from a very American perspective, which is that immigrants tend to do well and become part of a society, though it can take 3 generations for that to be really true. But America is a strange place- if you move here, it's just fine to call yourself an American. And your children who are then born in America- well, they are American first and perhaps Chinese or whatever, second. In New Zealand, it seems to be harder to make that integration. I saw a thread not long ago which talked about people calling themselves "Kiwi" or not. One thing that NZ has going for it- a bunch of kiwis have travelled the world and seen it, and that does help give them understanding as to what it feels like to be a stranger in a new land.

[ruthyroo]

I think there are two important aspects (probably more) when the kiwi considers immigration. The first is age: there is still an older generation here that thinks of NZ as England on the Pacific, and are very disturbed by the rapid (as they see it) change due to the recent influx of Asian people into NZ - they focus on the proliferation of asian language signs, people not speaking english etc. The second is exposure to the world beyond NZ - people who have left NZ and lived abroad for a while, often in Asia, Europe, are generally more open minded than those that don't. What Veronica said about Maori people perhaps being less tolerant towards Asian immigration is probably true - I would put that down to them being very inward focused on Aotearoa, seeing NZ as their place and everyone as incomers other than themselves. Also, Maori tend to be really home focused - they don't really go for the big OE the way that whote NZers do.

FWIW Mr Rr reports that in the classroom the pakeha kids make derogatory / racist comments to the maori / pacific islanders, the maori / pacific islanders respond aggressively, and they all get together to gang up on the asian kids. Maybe that's just teenagers!!!

[sidabrine]

Interesting post... I lived in Finland many years, then moved to Singapore for couple of years (now in NZ). I have to say that one of the reasons that helped me to make up my mind not to return to Finland after Singapore stint was how homogeneous (and overwhelmingly "white", yes, blond! :) ) the society appeared when I came back for a visit (too bad that I'm also blonde, btw :) ).

This is what wikipedia says about ethnic groups in Finland:
Finnish 97.6 % (Finnish-speakers 92 %, Swedish-speakers 5.6 %)
Russians 0.6 %
Roma 0.12%
Sami 0.11%
Finnish Tatars 0.02%
Other 1.55%

So if your biggest worry is that people around you may speak different languages and practice different religions, the only thing I can say is: STAY PUT! Stay where you are, because you won't find what you are looking for in NZ.

NZ (at least Auckland) is a diverse mix of cultures and you see people of all colours and ethnicities in the street. Auckland is the city with a largest Pacific population in the world (can't quote the source for this) and yep, people do mix a lot (I have a colleague who has Maori, Greek, Chinese, Tongan branches in her family and she's not an exception).

There are problems here, crime and racism, but I think only few NZers blame immigration for that. Immigration is seen as neccessary to keep the population numbers up and the economy going. In Finland, I remember, immigration was mostly presented as "a problem" in the media (and many people (employers too :O ) actually thought so!). In many ways NZ is a much more enlightened society when it comes to embracing foreign cultures.

Stay where you are Nika!!!

[KerryS]

A quick googling showed that at least your foreign minister (Winston Peters?) has presented some reasonably sensible sounding opinions, at least based on what I read quickly from the first article that came up.


Are you able to post the link to this - I'd be delighted to see something sensible that Peters has said!

[dharder]

We're not there yet, but I read the online version of the NZ Herald almost daily. Of course I know that that isn't representative of the country (just as the bbc.co.uk's 'have your say' isn't, I read that too). But in a number of recent 'Opinion' sections and articles about house prices, immigrants where actually blamed rather a lot for the high house prices. It seemed that a number of people felt they were priced out of the market by people for example from the UK who come with lots of £££s.

I'm not saying that they are representative, or even that there are many, but those voices were out there.

As far as the racial diversity goes, we are living in East London, and there are 12% white children at my sons' school. Moving to the area we are moving (the school has over 60% pakehas) will mean for them that for the first time in their lives, they will be part of the majority as far as skin colour is concerned.

So I guess it depends as well where you are coming from. We've never had any problems here, and I quite like the diversity :)

Daniela

[Nathan]

..."uninformed" or what not, while crime rates (particularily rapes) are growing on par with immigration.

I'd really like to see some background on this information. Do you have a link to a credible source that documents a direct link of immigratants to perpetration of violent sex crimes? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'd just like to be informed.

[stu70]

Hello all,

I've been browsing around the forum for a while, looking for a thread with discussion on the topic, but in the end I decided to start a fresh one... So: we've been thinking with my wife of moving over to NZ from cold Finland :) in some years' time and a lot of what we've been reading on the forum looks really nice and positive! What attracts us especially is the certain similarity of the countries, considering nature, population and so on. I have some questions in mind, though.

What kind of atttitude do people have towards immigration and it's effects in general? Obviously there's been a lot of talk in EU countries of "closing borders" and preparing stricter control over who's let in the country, what should be tolerated etc.

In Finland for example, it's sad to see that any discussion of problems caused by immigration and - let's face it - particularily members of certain religious or ethnic groups is usually labelled either "racist", "xenophobic" (or any other -phobic that fits) and we're told that "multiculturalism enriches our society" or some bs like that. As to how exactly that is supposed to happen, there is fairly little concrete evidence, but certainly that must be true... What's worse, mostly the blame for any controversy is put on native Finns for being racist, or "uninformed" or what not, while crime rates (particularily rapes) are growing on par with immigration. What is the discussion around this topic like in NZ? A quick googling showed that at least your foreign minister (Winston Peters?) has presented some reasonably sensible sounding opinions, at least based on what I read quickly from the first article that came up.

In your opinion, should NZ expect to be facing similar problems in the future as those we're seeing today in France and the UK with massive (and sometimes illegal) immigration of uneducated and/or potentially unwilling-to-integrate people? Personally I feel that the growing numbers of islamic immigration and western governments' flawed policies that have led to all the problems they have today with islamic extremists and ethnic ghettos etc are perhaps the number one threat for the future of many European countries. I'd hate to see the same happen for Finland or NZ, as I believe the scope of these problems today is still considerably smaller. However, I'm afraid that at least according to the general political athmosphere in Finland, we'll be headed exactly the wrong direction.

I do not believe there are any real stats to backup some of the claims you make (e.g. immigration and rape). Remember immigration is mainly a tool to benefit a country's economy. Unless one is seeking an entry as a refugee (they are nowhere near the numbers of SMC by the way), you are primarily being allowed to enter a country like NZ or Canada to become a "worker bee" under SMC. For those who are not educated or well traveled, immigration will be source of "problem" as you have articulated in your note. On the other hand, for those who run businesses (entrepreneurs) and those who have a mandate to build and safeguard a country's social and economic infrastructure (e.g. politicians) immigration is the vehicle to achieve their short and long term objectives. So to recap, if you are "archie bunker" type, you will frown upon newcomers mainly because of lack of "enlightenment". The resentment stems from fear and fear kicks in due to lack of knowledge. The only cure is education, and exposure to the world outside one's own place of birth. You also have to remember that the most dynamic economies in the world are built on ideas brought in by all kinds of people. America is THE most successful economy today and they have people from every corner of this world. I am afraid Finland would not be spoken of in the same breath as the USA or Canada. And that for a good reason too. Cheers

[nika]

Hi again, and thanks for all of your answers! I can see that the topic might create some controversial feelings, and that is to be expected. I'm by no means trying to offend anyone. :uhoh

As to my biggest worry, well, as some of you might've picked up on the forum, I'm a Finn and my wife is Russian, so I don't think it is "people speaking different languages" and so on. I personally don't have anything against immigrants, (my wife is one currently, and as you pointed out, we're both thinking of becoming ones) but people who do come into a country and are in some cases supported generously by the state should, in my opinion, have a certain respect for the country and the local ways and customs. I think that in Europe there are many cases and countries with immigrant groups where this attitude is lacking, as we can read in the news. I assure you that in the Finnish media today immigration is not presented as a "problem", but rather as the solution to all our problems ranging from "enormous lack of work force" to enriching of our inbred gene pool. What they DON'T present are any immigration critisizing opinions, except those that are obviously racist and ignorant, so as to show how utterly idiotic it is to question the wisdom of the Ideal.

Perhaps part of the problem that Finland has with immigration is that there is not enough real immigration, people who are genuinely interested to come to work and live here. Some of the refugees (and especially the "refugees") committing crimes etc can paint a pretty bad picture that is unfortunately projected too easily on the rest of foreigners as well. And this is not to say that there aren't any real refugees who don't deserve our help, but there are bad eggs in the lot also. "We do not have your luck in friends", to quote one popular movie from NZ :) This is also a policy issue, people move where they want to move, and to me it appears that NZ is doing it's job of "inviting" educated, hard-working people much better than Finland. Very few Finns have anything against such immigrants, and I can tell you that I those who do are luckily in the very small minority.

As to crime statistics, I'm mostly quoting a report by the Finnish ministry of justice: http://www.om.fi/optula/uploads/nul786y.pdf
It is unfortunately in Finnish, so it might not of course satisfy anyone very well :) However, I believe that fear doesn't kick in due to lack of knowledge, but rather due to too much knowledge...

What tigerlily said about immigrants calling themselves Americans in the US, I agree completely. In Europe we're talking of 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation immigrants! America's success, like stu70 told is indeed largely based on immigration, and it has worked because it is a lot more entrepreneurial country by nature. However, concerning your comment about comparing Finland and the US for example, I am forced to point you to some statistics:
http://www.forbes.com/markets/2004/10/11/cx_compcountryland.html
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Competitiveness%20Report/index.htm

Of course I could continue the list with stats on education, equality and so on, but maybe another time :) And this despite with our "overwhelmingly white" population that lacks all the ideas brought in... (not to put them down anyhow) However, you do have to remember we're only 5 million, so maybe that's part of why we don't fit in the same breath with US and Canada.

Well, the point of this thread wasn't to start defending one's own country or be aggressive or anything of the sort, I was (and am) simply curious to hear your input and it's been very interesting. Will be pleased to continue the conversation, the idea for which I got originally from reading a news clip about proposals made in NZ about tightening immigration policies, by the way

[Sam B]

I have to say that moving to NZ and becoming an immigrant has really opened my eyes to how much it can affect you and make you feel like a fish out of water. Yet I have been welcome4d by everyone I met. Many immigrants to the UK are fleeing horrific traumas in their home country, or poverty etc, and they arrive in the UK and experience all the culture shock and probably very little of the welcome. In fact they must feel very unwelcome at times. Now I know how I feel being a stranger in a strange land, I cannot imagine how they must feel. I think I have a better understanding now of why many people may not seem keen to integrate, learn the language etc. There's so much to deal with and learn when you come to a new country, they must feel isolated and overwhelmed. Just my opinion - might not be popular?

[tigerlily]

Sam I think you are 100% correct.

[sidabrine]

Fair enough, Nika. As you say, NZ is doing a better job inviting skilled immigrants (with their point system and glossy brochures) than Finland. But it is not like NZ is full of those highly skilled professionals really. Having lived in Finland and in NZ, my perception is that people are in general much more educated in Finland (a cleaner is likely to have a university degree in cleaning!! And, of course, all the doctors and lawyers from other countries usually work in the post office :) ).

I'm not saying that we don't have lots of highly educated people and lots of good people in NZ!!! But you won't find more security, innocence and squeeky cleanliness in NZ. I'm very surprised to hear about your reason for considering leaving Finland: immigration policy, of all reasons?!?! Are you sure?!?! If you'd like to find a place where both partners could find jobs according their qualifications facing no employer prejudice (your wife may appreciate that), if you'd like to learn surfing, if you'd like to be exposed to different cultures, if you'd like to travel to Antarctica,... NZ may be the place to go. But immigration policies?!?! Or anything to do with politics?!?! If you ask me, Finland is one of the few places where politicians have heard about integrity and still show some common sense in their decisions...

Just read <a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/">NZ Herald</a> once in a while and imagine that it is all real and has a real effect on your life (state of healthcare, children wellfare, burglaries, consumer debt, property prices, boyracers, druggies, rapist policemen...) Immigration policy? Ha!

And I have to completely disagre with stu70, as nika pointed out, considering 5million population, it is significant that Finland constantly ranks at the top of the "most competitive economies". Even though it is very homogeneous (an exception to the rule?)... The NZ minister of education has recently been to FI to get some ideas how to raise the level of education in NZ, btw.

[veronica]

I think one of the big problems with European immigration v NZ is that the European migration is uncontrolled, the migrants aren't invited to apply, they just arrive courtesy of the European union. In theory this means that you could get 200 carpenters or labourers and no nurses at a time when there is no building work but understaffed hospitals.

[nika]

Well, actually immigration policy (or anything to do with politics) isn't the reason we're considering the move, there are much more down to earth things like weather :) or simply gaining new experiences etc. Besides the situation is a whole lot different in Finland than in the larger countries like UK, France and Germany in terms of immigration and the problems I've been referring to. We simply don't have a whole lot of foreign-born people in the country at all. What I meant originally was that in Finland everything is fairly well today (if you don't mind the homogenous population, that is :) ) but in my opinion our immigration policy is flawed and will eventually lead to the same problems that our politicians claim we can "avoid by learning from others". How? By repeating all the mistakes already made elsewhere?

[sidabrine]

You hit the nail, Veronica! I guess Europe still tries to live up to its "humanist" values in their immigration policies, while OZ and and NZ takes a very pragmatic approach to immigration. But I'm not entirely sure that NZ+OZ approach is really ethical (what with 2nd health screening today (first work visa, now PR) to prove that I'm germ-free enough for the "pure" NZ society) Well, they got here first, so they can decide who can join the party, but this health screening and questions about parents health history almost smells of eugenics to me... :uhoh

[veronica]

sorry got to disagree there, the health screening is to protect the population here from both the very real risks of TB as well as aids, and various other nasties. As well as the practical cost exercise of whether you or yours will cost the state loads a money in the future., and in that then parents health is relevant. They have enough health problems to pay for in the population here already without knowingly importing more.

As to the ethics of it then thats up to you to decide to walk or not. I used to vet the kids friends when they were little, to me its a similar thing, you like to know whose coming into your house.

Apologies for hijacking your thread Nika. you can take it back now.

[Juniper]

I hadn't imagined that parent's health history would come up...sheesh, what are they going to do, exclude people on the chance they might develop diseases??

[Moorf]

You hit the nail, Veronica! I guess Europe still tries to live up to its "humanist" values in their immigration policies, while OZ and and NZ takes a very pragmatic approach to immigration. But I'm not entirely sure that NZ+OZ approach is really ethical (what with 2nd health screening today (first work visa, now PR) to prove that I'm germ-free enough for the "pure" NZ society) Well, they got here first, so they can decide who can join the party, but this health screening and questions about parents health history almost smells of eugenics to me... :uhoh

What on earth is wrong with a country wanting to protect it's residents from potentially harmful diseases brought in from abroad, and going some way to filter out those coming to the country who may be a burden to the health system in the future - risk management - if they started doing genetic testing THEN I'd be worried... can't see that happening really, can u? (unless Tania wots-er-face decides you have to be part Maori to get in :D ).

[sidabrine]

well, its all fine and I do understand why those health screenings are there and I agree to play according to the rules, because, obviously, I find something good in here and I want to stay. Good that I'm young and fit and healthy (the only place I could have caught TB since my last screening would be NZ itself! :roll ). What I was going to say is just that it would be difficult to introduce the same rules in European countries, the cradle of human rights, where people probably would fiercly protect their (and other human beings') liberties.

Juniper, I also wondered what effects an atrocious parents' medical history would have on their decision to allow you to immigrate or not... Even health insurance companies don't ask that, do they?!?

[nika]

You hit the nail, Veronica! I guess Europe still tries to live up to its "humanist" values in their immigration policies, while OZ and and NZ takes a very pragmatic approach to immigration. But I'm not entirely sure that NZ+OZ approach is really ethical (what with 2nd health screening today (first work visa, now PR) to prove that I'm germ-free enough for the "pure" NZ society) Well, they got here first, so they can decide who can join the party, but this health screening and questions about parents health history almost smells of eugenics to me... :uhoh

My point also. This is pretty much what I was trying to get at. Also, the interesting question about NZ is/was if people are content with the pragmatic policy, which I think is very sensible. According to this forum, you seem to be :)

[Super_BQ]

Nika, IMO I think Finland is in far better shape than NZ regardless if it has bad or good immigration policies.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/best.html

In almost every category Finland beats NZ hands down!

Could immigration be a factor of such good performance? Perhaps so. From my experience I know that NZ tends to lag behind N. America's immigration policies. (I lump both Canada & US because what ever policy the US implements, Canada follows the same). It's always a marvel to see what ever problem in NZ immigration, the solution they apply is the very same that has been already implemented in N. America several years. As i've posted in other threads, NZ tends to re-invent the wheel by trying to fix their own problems rather than adopting solutions that have worked in other developed nations. Also it's not likely NZ will ever have the same synergy relations (in both political and privately) with Australia as say Finland has with it's neighboring Scandinavian countries (or how Canada has with the US). It's just not in their culture.

The health / background screening for new immigrants in NZ? Again, a N. American requirement many years ago.

NZ doesn't have the resources to keep trying to solve trival problems when the solution already exists in another country. Stubborness? you tell me.

For those that havn't read:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3973886a10.html

This article surprises me because this would never be a problem in Canada. Would NZ be like Fiji where the indigenous people gain military power and overthrow the current gov't? It appears that unlike many other developed nations, the maoris (indigenous people) in NZ appear to have some influence in the operation of the country. No matter which way you look at it, there will always be some rivalry between the Maoris, the Asians, and the European decendants.

Some important distinctions about immigration:

1) Face Value?: We live in a word of fashion and looks. Almost everything is judged by the cover of a book - how else can we discriminate?. The same can be said to immigrants who are "visable minorities". No matter if they're highly skilled and educated, one can not think about the stereotypical views western people have over those that appear different in public. I'm sorry to say this Nika but you'll never be discriminated in NZ as a visable minority in a predominant white nation.

2) Generation or Segregation Gaps: As mentioned before, older generations appear to have a closer tie with the UK. A lot of the old english views that the UK use to have (?) still hold true here in NZ. For some reason, older generations in NZ did not have a favorable tie with N. America for many many decades. Where was NZ during the 1950s - 1970s? During that time, Americans enjoyed comfortable homes and their big Cadillac cruisers, colour tvs, etc. Without a doubt, Americans were really living life during those years and it amazes me how so many others developed nations couldn't simply embrace that idea and model it to their benefit. The question is could we blame them? (sure they consume vasts amount of power and oil) or call it jealousy? (because they have centrally heated homes) Perhaps a lack of patriotism? (the US gov't does look out for every American citizen in trouble overseas). As mentioned before, black, white, yellow, or green, you're an American

The historical footing is wrong in NZ in regards to immigration. Both Canada & US have had immigration from visable minorities from the beginning. Eg. While Canada was making deals with the native indians, they imported Chinese workers to build the railway. While the US was fighting the native indians, they also imported black slaves from Africa. Where does that leave them today? You see many asians in top gov't leadeships in Canada and likewise with African Americans in the US.

It's not likely NZ will have a similar experience. With the recent influx of visable minority immigrants, it would still take 2 or 3 generations to be where N. America is today ; where at ALL levels of gov't and in the jurdicials system, there are impartial decisions being made.

With education, people's views would change in nZ? Don't bet on it. Already the NZ primary and 2ndary education system is greatly flawed

http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10089

You could always change your name at the deed title office but you can never change generations of (discrimatory?) thought in a country so easily.

BQ

[sidabrine]

Ok, let me put it that way: NZ has its share of problems (some huge!) and immigration is probably not to blame for that, because it is done in a very controlled manner. New immigrants are usually squeeky clean (capable, educated, etc). From what I gather, the problems here are largely socioeconomic, people in the lowest bracket (no money, no jobs, no education, no skills, no REAL government support = home violence, child abuse, petty crime, etc) may have lived in NZ for many generations.

[veronica]

BQ I take it that you had your tongue in your cheek when your wrote your article.

otherwise your view of the race relations in the states (can't answer for canada as have no knowledge) and various other things is very different to mine. In my honest opinion the biggest problem with maoris here at the moment is that they have chosen to copy the "hood" mentality of the states. there are very few full blood maoris about too. Race isn't an issue for most people, culture can be. However much you would like to ignore it we are all from a tribal, primative base. Take away the tribe and people will search for something else to belong to, be it football, religion, icehockey or whatever. Unfortunately religion seems to be the most devisive of these choices.

Not all the people admitted into NZ are uni types with a super duper education, a lot are drivers and tradesmen who have learnt their trades the traditional way, on the job. Both Pete and I left school in our teens, 15 in Petes case and 16 in mine.

How is NZ education flawed, it may be different to what others are used to, each child is given the same chance to perform to their best ability, some chose not to use that chance, but they are turning out educated confident young people who do at least know where other places in the world are.

Oh and I also forgot to say that prior to the European Union NZers had one of the higher per capita incomes, us in the UK joining Europe crashed the economy here.

[veronica]

Sidabrine I do think that health insurance companies ask about family history too. not sure as its been a while since we took one out, but have an idea they asked about it.

[Juniper]

Nothing wrong with screening people before letting them in on national health care, and of course keeping an eye on the nastier contagious diseases, but I don't see how it's relevant to ask about family history.

The only reason I see for asking about family history is so they can screen out people that MAY in the future become a burden on the health system, or pass on bad genes I guess. Since the thing in question is PR, I can only assume that NZIS might deny PR based on family health history. Why else would they ask about it?

If that's true, I can only call that completely unfair, since the person has not yet developed a disease, and may never develop one. And the gene thing does sound a little paranoid, but who knows?

I'd be curious to find out if NZIS ever really does deny PR because of family history!

[wiki]

I'd be curious to find out if NZIS ever really does deny PR because of family history!

This could be the thing that stops my partner's application. There's a pretty crappy fatal gene (Huntington's) in the family that has already come out in her dad and uncle. There's a 40% chance it's been passed on but it doesn't tend to show symptoms until your 50s so realistically there's at least 20 years of good health before it may become an issue for us ... but whether that's enough for NZIS we just don't know.

[Juniper]

Wow...that...sucks. Both the disease and the discrimination.
:mad:

[Oregonkiwi]

The historical footing is wrong in NZ in regards to immigration. Both Canada & US have had immigration from visable minorities from the beginning. Eg. While Canada was making deals with the native indians, they imported Chinese workers to build the railway. While the US was fighting the native indians, they also imported black slaves from Africa. Where does that leave them today? You see many asians in top gov't leadeships in Canada and likewise with African Americans in the US.

Excuse me? NZ was wrong not to have slaves?:confused: And let's not forget that a lot of the Chinese railway workers for pretty much slaves, too. As a proportion of population, African Americans are very unrepresented in "top gov't leadership" - 10% of population and only one black US Senator (Barack Obama).
And there is so much else wrong in your post...:roll

[Jo Jo]

I have to say that moving to NZ and becoming an immigrant has really opened my eyes to how much it can affect you and make you feel like a fish out of water. Yet I have been welcome4d by everyone I met. Many immigrants to the UK are fleeing horrific traumas in their home country, or poverty etc, and they arrive in the UK and experience all the culture shock and probably very little of the welcome. In fact they must feel very unwelcome at times. Now I know how I feel being a stranger in a strange land, I cannot imagine how they must feel. I think I have a better understanding now of why many people may not seem keen to integrate, learn the language etc. There's so much to deal with and learn when you come to a new country, they must feel isolated and overwhelmed. Just my opinion - might not be popular?

V sensible observation. I think I'm going to join your fan club. And if you haven't got one, then I volunteer to set it up. :yes

[Moorf]

I'd be curious to find out if NZIS ever really does deny PR because of family history!

My family have a medical history file which consists of VOLUMES! Seriously, father cancer/heart disease/hypercholestrolemia (sp) etc!

And most people here might have parents who haven't yet succumbed to any possible genetic diseases, perhaps Alzheimers/Parkinsons, so it wouldnt show on your history anyway.

There are a few docs on here aren't there - perhaps they have a view?

[Andy-Dee]

Just wanted to say - spent Christmas and New Year in Vuokatti Finland this year and thought it was wonderful. Finnish people were fantastic and so child friendly, the area was great for recreational ski ing.

Loved the whole melting metal in the fire on New Years Eve - kept thinking UK Health & Safety jobs worthy's would have stamped the tradition out years before.

We liked it so much we are planning another visit before we emigrate.

[Super_BQ]

oregonkiwi,

Excuse me? NZ was wrong not to have slaves?

My argument being that NZ has a long ways in reducing discrimination and racism compared to N. America.

And let's not forget that a lot of the Chinese railway workers for pretty much slaves, too.

In Canada, sure they were paid only half as much as the fellow western worker (but their boat fare from China was paid for). Countless died and discriminated. But let's talk about where we are now. The Canadian gov't has paid recognition and compensation to those early immigrants - something we don't see here in NZ.

As a proportion of population, African Americans are very unrepresented in "top gov't leadership" - 10% of population and only one black US Senator (Barack Obama).

And compare that to NZ? What % of visable minorities exist in NZ at all levels of gov't? The problem isn't because they don't want to take these occupations but rather, you need to create an environment for such candidates.

And there is so much else wrong in your post...

Let the facts speak for themself. How about a recent post by Christchurch's local newspaper "The Press"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3976475a6427.html

My friend, this hit front page news. Surely there's has to be other ethical & concise coverage than this for front page?

http://news.massey.ac.nz/2006/Massey_News/issue-16/stories/06-16-06.html

IMO there's so much wrong here in NZ relating to racism and discrimination and is all being pointed to immigration as the source of the problem.

BQ

[stu70]

IMO there's so much wrong here in NZ relating to racism and discrimination and is all being pointed to immigration as the source of the problem.

BQ

Very interesting note. I follow the economy out of interest and to the best of my knowledge NZ seeks immigrants to keep the wheels of coomerce moving. NZ has very high OCR (highest in OECD?) so export market can't be that hot. They do not have population like China or India to make them rock (local demand and strong consumer market). Their wages are well below international standards (reading the forum)and the cost of living is very high. Soooo with all this in mind, what would they do if immigrants did not sell their belongings and move to NZ with all the dough to invest in local market? Perhaps NZ govt should enlighten the "locals" about the real effects of immigration.:)

[veronica]

super BQ I've heard of the theory of alternative realitiies but seems this is the first case I've come across in real life. We seem to be living in different NZs.

[Caniwi]

I must agree with Oregonkiwi, and disagree with BQ - and of course, is only my opinion.

Racism is so prevelant in the US, especially towards blacks, and now those with muslim heritage - understandably, maybe, justifiably, I think not.

As for Chinese in Canada, they were not compensated properly ...... $20,000? that's a buy-off - this "compensation" doesn't justify the $500 headtax in the 20's (I think that covers the "free" boat passage, no?), the pain, suffering, and DEATH. The "government" had to take a verbal beating for so long before even recognising that "they" were wrong to bring these immigrant Chinese, essentially into slavery, because the "british immigrants" didn't want to get their hands dirty. Most of those of which it affected to never even got to see the results.

We must remember, as New Zealanders, Canadians, and Americans - those of us who consider these countries to be "ours", might acknowledge that they became our "countries" due to our fore-fathers immigrating, and for the most-part, at the emotional, and physical, cost if those native to these countires - the Maori, the First Nations, and the Native Americans. And the "compensation" to those native to this country (Canada) is a "reserve", land set aside (begrudgingly), by the government as compensation for the atrocities that happened decades ago. What compensation is that, in which the people NATIVE to the country are relegated to live under a main atery bridge, next to a sewer treatment station????

If not for immigration, none of us would be, who we believe ourselves to be..
As immigrants and "natives", we must learn to adapt, accept and be the civillized people we claim to be......immigration makes the world go round, we must now learn from past mistakes, and embrace the positives about it, rather than disect the negatives.

And really, if you don't like it......don't do it.....simple, I think.

[urban78]

Since the thing in question is PR, I can only assume that NZIS might deny PR based on family health history. Why else would they ask about it?
I'd be curious to find out if NZIS ever really does deny PR because of family history!

Hi Juniper,

I can only speak in my experience, hopefully it's the case for most people. There is unfortunately a history of breast cancer in my family (immediate), which I duly put in my application....and this was never questioned, they prefered asking for info on minor surgery I had 5 years before :roll

I applied under partnership category, maybe that's why it was never asked but I'd also be curious to get some answers on that question too.

Jen

[suebeenz]

I've noticed that in the papers (articles, letters to the editor) and on the radio, there seems to be growing sentiment that loose NZ immigration policies are to blame for the strong upswing in housing prices. Is that the same reason that the rest of the world uses too? It'll be interesting to see what will happen if upping the interest rates doesn't cool the market down as hoped - both in the government's policies, and citizens' view towards immigrants.

ps: i know that most of us will probably feel like immigration policies are certainly not 'loose', but from my experience, they do seem more relaxed than in other countries

[Super_BQ]

i know that most of us will probably feel like immigration policies are certainly not 'loose', but from my experience, they do seem more relaxed than in other countries

I've been saying this for several years. When the problem of immigration arises in NZ the gov't is quick at pointing fingers. What I find interesting is the recent changes in NZ's immigration policies were no different than in US/Can immigration policies done several years ago. But oh no, NZ is a small country of 4 million and we prefer to do things 'our way'. Sorry for the scacasm.

The only thing rising interest rates will do to NZ is make it more difficult for local NZ residents to afford their 1st home. We live in a globalised economy and quite frankly, the seller of the house goes to the highest bidder! How can local residents compete with the millionaire incomes of wealthy immigrants? Ok let's take a long term approach. In culture, asians and east indians are not afraid to work longer hours in their job or buisness. Some won't settle for 37.5hrs / week as full time and take on 2 jobs just so they can pay off the house sooner. Are locals willing to compete on that same level?

BQ

[wilson182]

How can local residents compete with the millionaire incomes of wealthy immigrants?

WHAT!!!!


Ok let's take a long term approach. In culture, asians and east indians are not afraid to work longer hours in their job or buisness. Some won't settle for 37.5hrs / week as full time and take on 2 jobs just so they can pay off the house sooner. Are locals willing to compete on that same level?

BQ

Who works 37.5hrs? To my knowledge the minimum working week is 40hrs.

[Trigirl]

Some won't settle for 37.5hrs / week as full time and take on 2 jobs just so they can pay off the house sooner.
some will always prefer extra money to spnding time with their families. not being willing to do that is not (IMO) a bad thing.

[Super_BQ]

As for Chinese in Canada, they were not compensated properly ...... $20,000? that's a buy-off - this "compensation" doesn't justify the $500 headtax in the 20's

What form of compensation did the chinese people in NZ get from Helen Clark? My grandfather was one of 2 surviving head tax payers in NZ and all he ask was, "I just wany my $ back". Instead, the Labour gov't set aside a chinese trust fund where the $ just sits and does nothing to address the problem of how the chinese were discriminated in NZ. Eitherway, at least the chinese decendants in Canada did get some form of compensation (likewise with the Japanese). There were funds alocated out to programs such as offering courses in learning cantonese to building fancy chinese gardens around NZ ; none that addresses the root problem of the poll tax.

If not for immigration, none of us would be, who we believe ourselves to be..
As immigrants and "natives", we must learn to adapt, accept and be the civillized people we claim to be......immigration makes the world go round, we must now learn from past mistakes, and embrace the positives about it, rather than disect the negatives.

Embrace the positives? Funny, this isn't something we see happening here in NZ. (and many of the same mistakes here have happened overseas several years ago). We have the media that is easy to point fingers at any of the negatives that immigrants are caught doing (from bribing their driver's license to finding a dead body in a suitcase in Auckland harbour). But it doesn't just stop at the asian immigrants. The indigenous people of the coutry too are always being pointed out.

It would be hard to say the 1st Nations People in Canada are getting the short end of the stick. I knew many native friends back and in Canada and while they had free university education (sometimes they were paid to go to schooling), given brand new trucks and sports cars, the local asians and westerners had to climb their ranks on a different ladder. As growing up in Canada did we (local asians & caucasions) never really put up with a fuss. Don't believe the maoris are the same (living near sewage treatment centres). A recent trip to Rotorua had my eyes open how all the new shopping complex was built on land owned by the local maoris. It's the same here in Christchurch - all of Tower Junction (Bunnings, etc.) is owned by the maoris.

Perhaps from a different perspective. Did any of the 1st Nations in Canada ever complained about the rising immigration from asia? Likewise did the maoris ever complain about how so many asians immigrated into NZ? (though recently they did complain about the possibility that Helen Clark will open the door on immigration ; thus dilution in the same way as holding Warehouse shares and the company decides to float more new shares (reducing % of ownership in a company).

BQ

[Super_BQ]

wilson182

37.5 hrs / week is considered full time in NZ. 40hrs/wk in Canada. Eitherway as Trigirl mentioned, it's a balance between spending time with family and work.

Unfortunately, on another thread I discussed - UNICEF talks about 1 of the criterias in evaluating NZ 'of how much time is spent on raising children'. As prices of housing continues in NZ, the more difficult it becomes to make this balance. Also most career minded people won't settle for housing near sewage treatment centres.

http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10089

BQ

[stu70]

BQ, I have to agree with you. First nations in Canada are treated far better even than their counterparts in America (USA).We are known as one of the most liberal and open minded countries in the world today. There are pockets of bad apples but then who does not have them? As for a "pattern" of racism and mistreatment of visible minorities on a wide-spread basis here, you are not going to find it. We are quite proud of our achievements in this area.

[veronica]

excuse my ignorance but surely the payout in Canada to the chinese was not because of discrimination but because of building the railways and the suffering etc. they were virtually slaves. Did this happen in NZ.

[Caniwi]

IMO there's so much wrong here in NZ relating to racism and discrimination and is all being pointed to immigration as the source of the problem.

BQ


I must ask, are you an immigrant....? If so, if things are so bad in NZ, why did you immigrate there?

If not, isn't pointing your finger at others, (government, immigration, whatever) a facet of being racist and discriminatory, thereby becoming part of the very problem you are upset with?

[stu70]

If not, isn't pointing your finger at others, (government, immigration, whatever) a facet of being racist and discriminatory, thereby becoming part of the very problem you are upset with?

I beg to totally differ. How can it be racist to simply express one's opinion about a "system"? Racism as defined or understood my myself and perhaps many others does not make this as a racist act. Just my $0.02 . Cheers

[Super_BQ]

Hi Veronica

excuse my ignorance but surely the payout in Canada to the chinese was not because of discrimination but because of building the railways and the suffering etc. they were virtually slaves. Did this happen in NZ.

The head (poll) tax was introduced after the completion of the railway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_tax_(Canada)

Interesting point "In the early 1900s, the value of $500 was enough to purchase two homes in Montreal..." OMG!! Kinda makes you think $20k is a joke.

BQ

[Caniwi]

It would be hard to say the 1st Nations People in Canada are getting the short end of the stick. I knew many native friends back and in Canada and while they had free university education (sometimes they were paid to go to schooling), given brand new trucks and sports cars,

BQ

This stems from the commonwealth government trying to cover their butts, of years back, after taking children from their families and placing them in missionary schools against their wills, not allowing them to speak their own languages, or indulge in their own culture. They are not given trucks and sports cars, they are given a grant when they turn 18 to use as they wish - maybe not the most effective use - but most buying new trucks and cars

[Super_BQ]

Hi Caniwi

I must ask, are you an immigrant....? If so, if things are so bad in NZ, why did you immigrate there?

For most things you just have to experience it for yourself. Though my father was born and raised in NZ, he moved to Canada in the late 1960s. When I finished university, there was a whole side of my dad's family that I did not know in NZ. So you could say it was family that brought me here. :yes

...after taking children from their families and placing them in missionary schools against their wills, not allowing them to speak their own languages, or indulge in their own culture...

A practice we still see being done today in both countries. Social workers have that power and if it's known that 1 race is known for abusing their baby, how can be it known that they would be better off by segregating them?

Can't blame 18 year olds for wanting new wheels? it's all part of growing up and a stage in life. Your friends working at McD, KFC, Wal-mart, to buy their latest accessories for their car, and they've earned it. End of the day they can keep up with the jones ; far worse than depriving (say the 1st nations) or isolating them from society just because they've been labelled as a different class?

As in a recent South Park episode where Satan holds a party and his Ferarri (Acura) cake. Everyone wants to be invited! Who wants segregatons? :clap

BQ

[eternalkiwi]

NZ has always been a country of immigrants, so our culture is to accept other cultures to become part of our country. NZs efforts in minimising discrimination, would be above the international average and arguably more effective than other countries.
Should cases of genuine discrimination occur, (given the cultural non-acceptance of discrimination, this has been abused) NZ possess extensive anti-discrimination laws that are complemented by a range of support services and agencies.

Recognition of the contribution and unfair treatment of early migrants is something that has been acknowledged by the NZ Government, even in cases where they were not the guilty party. While retrospective actions can never undo what was done, unlike many other countries NZ has in fact recognised historical events. BQ also commented in recent posts some of the ways the NZ Government has provided recompense for previous ‘wrongs’.
The proportion of minorities within New Zealand’s Government continually grows and if anything they minorities have a disproportionately large level of exposure to express thies issues and ideas. Therefore NZ’s political environment is considerably more accessible to minority groups compared to other countries (including North America); this is furthered by the proportional representation system of Government that exists for Central and increasing for Local Government elections.
Whist BQ possibly will disagree, a single news articles does not equate to being a majority view of a significant issue. Cheating is an issue in all countries and different cultures have different definitions of what is cheating and what is not. If anything The Press article highlights differences between ethnic cultures, so people can be more understanding and knowledgeable of other cultures.

Likewise the issue of employment discrimination faced by immigrants is an issue in any country, including North America and from my experience the issues of racism within NZ are not of the same level as many other countries.

One difference in NZ is that we have a strong culture of equality and transparency, which arguably results in a higher expectation level for equal treatment and a high level of openness that provides a higher profile for what happens in NZ. As BQ has highlighted in a number of his posts there are some people who see transparency as a negative thing.

Having more information available can potentially over emphasise and increase the visibility of issues and this has been recognised as affecting NZ’s rankings in international comparisons and research. Though this can make issues seem bigger than what they are in reality, I personally prefer this situation compared to the situation where information is kept from people or false information is circulated in the media, which definitely does occur more regularly in other countries.

As for working hours in NZ, not only does NZ have a lower than average annual income we work above average hours per week. I personally have worked up to 90 hours per week in Accounting roles I have previously held. BQ’s assertion that “locals” would not compete on this level is either a sign of ignorance or racism.

Yes NZ is a real country, like any country we have our strengths and our weaknesses, but we also have the opportunity to work towards maximising our strengths and minimising our weaknesses.

Shawn

[veronica]

its important to keep in mind another scenerio too. One of the lads here at the backpackers worked in a bar with several others, all of them did the same job but one lad there, an islander, was convinced that the boss was giving him the worst jobs and kept on and on about it. His outlook was that it was because he was an islander that he was being 'picked on'. According to the lad here the islander was very lazy, did all his jobs with the minimum effort and cut corners and was generally an unpleasant person to be around. The issue wasn't racist but in his mind it was and he made sure that everybody around him knew his feelings. The others found it difficult as they weren't up to telling a 6'+, 16 stoner that it was just because he was a pain in the butt., something I totally understand.
So sometimes I do wonder about SOME of the issues that are shouted as racist because a person is black, chinese or other ethnic origin, could it just be that they are not a nice person and don't get on with their fellows and in their mind its racism on others part rather than their fault.
(I also appreciate that their are bullies in all cultures and some will always resent others) Also keep in mind that newspapers are about selling newspapers and making money, and the more sensational they can make the news the more they sell. After all the fact the neighbour A (european descent) gets on really well with neighbours B (maori) and C (chinese) hardly makes avid reading does it.

[Super_BQ]

PLEASE!!! I'M NOT TRYING TO START A WAR!!! - just some good debates with my point of view. NONE TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY!!!!! Please read with a light heart...

One difference in NZ is that we have a strong culture of equality and transparency, which arguably results in a higher expectation level for equal treatment and a high level of openness that provides a higher profile for what happens in NZ.

Hrm. I think the Maori people will disagree. Though passed through law that discrimination is discouraged, people are still getting away with it. On Waitangi Day, I see gov't ministers getting the pie in their face - but the question on that day is if the Prime Minister will show up or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitangi_Day#Controversy_and_protest

Therefore NZ’s political environment is considerably more accessible to minority groups compared to other countries (including North America);

More accessable? How about a law like in Canada that requires 10% of their staff of visable minorities in any large corporation or organization with more than 100 employees? In fact this was a major push in Canada back in the early 1990s. My highschool friend told me that even though his father was a top profile police officer, he told me I had a far better chance becoming a police officer than he did. At the time the RCMP were not accepting applications from caucasions.

Cheating is an issue in all countries and different cultures have different definitions of what is cheating and what is not. If anything The Press article highlights differences between ethnic cultures, so people can be more understanding and knowledgeable of other cultures.

Of course. But does that have to be front page news? or people in NZ enjoy reading about this stuff - the tabloids? "Well hey, maybe if we can pick on a few minorities then it will mean better ratings and better sales".

Likewise the issue of employment discrimination faced by immigrants is an issue in any country, including North America and from my experience the issues of racism within NZ are not of the same level as many other countries.

I voice my opinion because i'm tired of hearing others (minorities) complaining. As pointed out in some academic studies done in NZ, i'm not surprised these people are complaining. But let's not talk about specifics. How about something real like Canada's "Charter of Rights and Freedoms"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

Though similar ot the US's 1st Amendment, every citizen has it and can use it as a defence in court of law. In fact it is the law over other laws. If an east indian police officer wears a turban but the law says all police must be in uniformed wearing the hat, under that charter, he has the right to wear the turban in course of his job. (the right of religion and belief).

NZ's version:

http://www.hrc.co.nz/report/chapters/chapter03/equality01.html

and

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/maorilnd.html

The problem lies in the structure of the country’s legal system. One of the greatest impediments to the protection of human rights and indigenous peoples’ rights is the fact that the Aotearoa/New Zealand Parliament retains absolute sovereignty. Aotearoa/New Zealand is one of the only countries in the world where legislation cannot be overturned for inconsistency with human rights. This inherited colonial legal principle means that Parliament can, and does, override both domestic and international human rights and indigenous peoples’ rights, to Maori detriment.

Though this article plays emphasis on the Maori people, there is a difference where law is by the people's right vs. law that parliament has the ultimate say hence, "...override both domestic and international human rights and indigenous peoples’ rights..."

BQ

[eternalkiwi]

Laws that set minimum percentages rarely have rarely been successful in achieving their aims, which is possibly part of the reason why NZ does not follow this concept. Government departments and many large corporates have policies that promote opportunities (for employment, promotion and professional development) for people from minority groups, so while there is no legal wooden stick to force people to make otherwise ill-logical decisions, many organisations have chosen to encourage diversity in a manner that can create win win situations. Could more be done in this area, almost without question, but at least a platform is available to build from.

I do agree the choice of front page stories could at times be better placed further within the paper (if at all) with other stories placed more prominently. It is at least possible to access a wide range of (relatively) accurate news in the media. People that are different often make the news, whether they be successful business people, immigrants, or people from difficult backgrounds.

Arguably people who are non-mainstream bring a higher profile for the paper and intrigue people to buy and hence keep the advertisers happy.
As advertisers are effectively the 'masters' of most forms of media, whatever keeps them happy and the publishers profitable will be produced for the public.

In addition to legislative law, NZ also has a large body of common (court based) law that also determines what is legal and what is not.
Because of this matrix approach there is potentially additional issues to determine when considering legal precedence.
If the Government has not performed their duties legally, the Judicial Review process can strike out these decisions. Not surprisingly to successfully win through this process you do need a very strong case to prove the Government wrong, (or be near election or after a change of Government).

No system is perfect and I definitely can fault the current path the Government is leading, though on balance (IMO) NZ still provides a good basis and environment to live, work and grow and if people are proactive and not apathetic, we do have opportunities to minimise the weaknesses and help build NZ to be an even better place.

Shawn

[Caniwi]

No system is perfect and I definitely can fault the current path the Government is leading, though on balance (IMO) NZ still provides a good basis and environment to live, work and grow and if people are proactive and not apathetic, we do have opportunities to minimise the weaknesses and help build NZ to be an even better place.

Shawn

:raebanana
That's right, no one (person, group, religion or otherwise) is perfect, we ALL have our faults. Complaining about it, (from either side) is counter-productive. We have to, as a society, take the opportunites to be part of the solution, not problem. Even if just one person takes that proactive step, we are one step closer to living in a better place. Peace

[veronica]

can anyone tell me the point of an employer giving someone of lesser qualifications or apptitude a job just because of their ethnic background, over someone more suitable who is white. This is the situation that sometimes the law decrees when they stipulate that a set percentage of the workforce is of a different colour or ethnic background. I do feel the more the law and papers go on about the different races of man the more it brings those differences to the forefront. Personally I don't give two hoots what colour or religious bias anyone has as long as I find them good people.

[Super_BQ]

can anyone tell me the point of an employer giving someone of lesser qualifications or apptitude a job just because of their ethnic background, over someone more suitable who is white.

The simple reason is because in many other countries, you can sue on the basis of discrimination. Especially in situations where the gov't plays a role in serving the public. When an ethnic police officer aprehends a suspect, there is no way that person can sue on the basis of racial discrimination. The same principle applies during jury selection. Why is it in the US that if the defendant is African American then a certain # of the people in the jury must also be African American?

For any job position, no person should be hired unless they meet the qualification. But realistically for any job position, it's more like the employer will see 100s of applications where everyone one is qualified. Though many will say a university degree is overated as once they land that 1st job, it's usualy the company that ends up re-training that person - take more courses, company culture, etc. Very common to see a person that does a BCom in Marketing doing an manufacturing processing job or a person with a science degree doing sales marketing for their company.

BQ

[veronica]

sorry thats not always the situation, In the Uk there has been times when theres only a handful of applicants for a job and all of them caucasean, what do you do then readvertise stating that you need a black or other ethnic origin person. that is discrimination.

And when out on the street you can't be in a situation where theres a white cop and s/he can't arrest someone just because he is the wrong blooming colour, just in case s/he gets sued. One of my daughters friends is a police officer in London and on pulling up two black lads running down the street away from an incident the kids tried the old ' you're only picking on me cos I'm black' sentence so she pointed out who else was she meant to apprehend, there were only black people in the street. she and her partner were the only whites.

[Oregonkiwi]

Why is it in the US that if the defendant is African American then a certain # of the people in the jury must also be African American?


Once again, you are stating a vaguely held belief as a fact. What you have said is simply not true.
For example,
http://www.bostonist.com/archives/2005/09/16/battle_over_racial_makeup_of_local_juries.php
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510462003
http://www.courttv.com/archive/national/diallo/020100_ctv.html

[Super_BQ]

Vaguely? As race in the jury selection is as important for the defence as it is for the plaintiff, if the issue wasn't so important then you wouldn't see any of these articles online. Anotherwords who you have in the jury does matter and that's a FACT.

Sure there are exceptions... it would be a mockery if every convicted African American was sent to jail by an all white jury in every single case.

veronica,

You're right that it's quite often unavoidable. But you would find the black kids will have a tough time winning on the base of racial differences if the whole police dept. does have other black law enforcement workers. - thus removes some of the bias that the police dept. was on a witch hunt for black trouble makers.

[nickydwuk]

ps: i know that most of us will probably feel like immigration policies are certainly not 'loose', but from my experience, they do seem more relaxed than in other countries

I have lived in UK all my life and can say from experience that NZ immigration is not 'loose' compared to the UK. One of the contributing factors to our possible move to NZ is the number of uncontrolled immigrants and unskilled immigrants flooding into the UK. My kids are competing for jobs with really low wages against other EU 'workers' who are willing to work for a pittance. Their meagre income is usually subsidised by crime - the number of Eastern European beggers on the streets is unbelievable. There is no restriction on people coming into a small island like England and putting pressure on the infrastructure such as hospitals and schools. This is what attracts me to NZ - the immigration process may be complex and strict but at least the people they allow in (hopefully me later) can seriously contribute to the economy and will not prove a strain on the government.

[stu70]

I have lived in UK all my life and can say from experience that NZ immigration is not 'loose' compared to the UK. One of the contributing factors to our possible move to NZ is the number of uncontrolled immigrants and unskilled immigrants flooding into the UK. My kids are competing for jobs with really low wages against other EU 'workers' who are willing to work for a pittance. Their meagre income is usually subsidised by crime - the number of Eastern European beggers on the streets is unbelievable. There is no restriction on people coming into a small island like England and putting pressure on the infrastructure such as hospitals and schools. This is what attracts me to NZ - the immigration process may be complex and strict but at least the people they allow in (hopefully me later) can seriously contribute to the economy and will not prove a strain on the government.

Sorry to say this but the globalization of world economies will not let you live in NZ in total isolation from this "inflow". NZ might be remote but they do need to trade with the world to survive and they are going to need trade agreements with China, etc which means cheap goods flooding into NZ thus affecting those that depend on unskilled jobs. You might not have 80 million people in NZ but to some extent you will be seeing the same impact on all western economies. The only answer to make yourself immune is to get skills and thus turning the economy from a manufacturing one to a service based (value added). If the population remains reluctant to acquiring new skills and help build a knowledge based economy, its going to feel the biggest negative impact in these times

[Sam B]

I think it's a bit much to say that most Eastern European immigrants subsidise their income with crime! There was a large and growing Polish community in Cornwall when I left, and I found them to be hard working and law abiding. Most people who come to Britain come with the intention of working very hard. Crikey - i know there are problems associated with immigration, but be careful not to make racist stereotypes. There are good and bad people in every culture.

Love the new avatar Stu70! Are you trying to say you're just a fluffy little puppy, or have you got a new dog??

[veronica]

the new immigrants are not all polish, our foster daughters partner is Polish and yes he is hard working too. But I was taken aback when my daughter complained of being pestered by beggers as she came out of a fast food restaurant at Reading. Previous to this last couple of years I had never heard of children begging in the streets in england.
On the crime front certainly not all the immigrants are committing them, but the major vice rings in london are now controlled by people from eastern Europe

[nickydwuk]

the new immigrants are not all polish, our foster daughters partner is Polish and yes he is hard working too. But I was taken aback when my daughter complained of being pestered by beggers as she came out of a fast food restaurant at Reading. Previous to this last couple of years I had never heard of children begging in the streets in england.
On the crime front certainly not all the immigrants are committing them, but the major vice rings in london are now controlled by people from eastern Europe

I have no objection to immigrants moving to any country for what is perceived a better quality of life (I intend to be one soon)- I work with a large number of Filipino nurses who were recruited to bridge the nurse shortages and they are wonderfull people who work hard. What I am uncomfortable with is the number of uncontrolled immigrants who come to this country thinking that the pavements are paved with gold and finding it not. As many are unskilled some turn to crime and begging. The main issue with immigration within the UK is the governments policy of allowing anyone from the numerous EU countries into the country without improving the services needed such as healthcare, education and housing.