[seattle]

Hi, I've been following the threads that relate to the strengths and weaknesses of education in NZ. We are currently looking at Christch (maybe Auk). We are from the west coast of the U.S. but have been living in Europe for the past year. Our daughters (ages 6, 10, 12) attend an international school that they do not find challenging (especially in math where they are being taught stuff that they learned 2 years ago)- so I can see that our situation may be similar to some of the folks who have relocated from the U.K. and have found the NZ state schools to be a few years behind. (which is fine if the kids are happy and they aren't stressed about going back and being behind their peers).

So at this point, we have concluded that a private school is the way to go for our kids. Are the private schools more academically rigorous/challenging than the public schools and comparable to U.K or U.S. schools? (we are looking at Rangi Ruru, St. Andrews...in CC). Is there anyone out there that has had the experience of relocating to NZ from the U.S. or U.K. and could comment on how the private academic standards compare? THANKS!

[tick tock]

Hi, we are former expats having lived in the USA and Asia, we have two boys and both have been going to international private schools.

Schooling was VERY important to us and we did loads of research..we have moved to ChCh.

The following may be of interest to you.

We found all the private schools where very full, some would not even give us a tour as they had long wait lists.

In ChCh state school are zoned so to get into your chossen state school you need to buy/rent a house in that zone.

After a long story, which I am sure will bore you, we oppted for the Boys High School, turning down a place at Christs collage, why? because we felt we could get the same education, they had a better chose of sports, had to learn to deal which children from all walks of life. yes there are advangtes going to such prest. schools but look at your child and the school.

For Ch CH I would look at the girls high and Burnside before you go down the private school route. I would advise you to get their names down at the private schools ASAP if thats the way you want to go

FYI we have met two neigbours who have girls and while both could afford to send their children to top private girls schools they oppted for CHCH girls high, one has just started uni to become a Dr the other in hoping to get a scholarship to go to an overseas uni.

[Sam B]

I don't know about private schools, but I am delighted with my childrens' new school in Cambridge. My oldest daughter is v bright, and has been drifting along without having to work at all for years in the UK, but she now seems really stimulated and excited by her NZ school. The combination of lots of physical activity and studious, hard working classrooms has really worked for her. Her spellings that she is sent home with are really difficult ( she is 10 - spellings like definitely and accommodation that many adults get wrong) because they tested her at the start of term and have differentiated for her. Her homework is also challenging and interesting (extra hard for brighter pupils again) with consequences if not done. I am really happy with the NZ state school. I spent a lot of time researching the best school in the area before I came, and I work for the Minestry of Education, so I know what I'm looking for - and I'm pleased. No need for private!

[KerryS]

SamB - Can I ask what sort of assessment they did when your daughter started at school? Was it PATS or asTTle, or something else completely?

[Sam B]

Well, to decide the level of spellings they just did a spelling test - 60 words of increasing difficulty (she was a bit peeved because there were 2 really long Maori placenames at the end which she got wrong!). They also got her to do some maths, creative writing and other stuff, but I don't think they did any formal recognised testing. But hey - I'm only going on Poppy's information and she can be fairly monosyllabic when quizzed about school related stuff!!

[seattle]

It is great to hear that some positive responses about the public schools. (especially since I've read a lot of negative posts). It is also great to hear that the public schools assess kids and provide differentiated learning (is this common in all NZ public schools?) We have found that a lot of the satisfaction with a particular school depends on persepective and expectations. At my kids' current international school, some families, who haven't been anywhere else, love the school. However, new American and UK families are extremely frustrated since the academics are so far behind compared to where they have come from- so a lot end up leaving after the first year. It is interesting that there can be such a diverging opinion of the same school. (I've heard this is common in international schools). That is why it seems like the private route would involve less risk for us.

Can I ask how much homework your 10 year old has per night. My 10 year old had an hour plus back in the U.S. but next to nothing at her international school since she finishes it at school. Not that the amount of homework is the most important thing- I just want my kids, who are eager to learn- to be challenged and happy.

Also, my girls play a lot of sports and we have enjoyed that their current international school is not overly competitive like sports in the U.S. How are the sports at the schools in NZ- or maybe that is a topic for a new thread?
:-)

[Sam B]

First homework - She is expected to read every night (try stopping her), and has 20 spellings to learn for a test each week, and a times table to learn for a test each week. She is also expected to complete 2 pages of a homework book that has a mixture of English, science and maths exercises in it. She occasionally has to research things on the internet - e.g.one week she had to look up her carbon footprint and another research an endangered NZ species. Overall she has about 2-3 hours per week, not including the reading, which doesn't count anyway. Enough for a 10 year old I think. When she is not doing homework, she is often at her most creative, writing stories etc - too much homework or extra-curricular activity can be a bit stifling I think.

Sports - much, much more physical activity than in the UK. The school has 3 adventure playgrounds, 2 tennis courts, a swimming pool, tonnes of playing fields. Children have swimming lessons every day, can also swim at lunch time (and do). I think there are lots of team sports, but on the whole she is not interested, so does not do sport out of school time, but still lots of general P.E. lessons like rugby skills - which surprisingly she seems to enjoy.

I believe that bright, well-motivated children will do well anywhere and be all the better for being with a balanced social mix.

[mish&al]

Thank you for bringing this subject up!

The husband's cousin's girls attend Avonside Girls High school, I would be please to hear what primary schools are good for my girls.

My girls attend a public primary school in Sydney. (south west).

Thanks :cheers

[Junnifer USA]

We live in Chch and sent our son to a public school, then placed him in Cathedral Grammar (the feeder school for Christ College) He is now in Year 9 attending St Andrew's. He is a week boarder (by his choice). And, reports on a daily basis that he 'loves' it. The sports choices are huge. huge.
As far as academic quality...there are many personal stories used to compare one school to another, and to justify various parental choices.

We decided to research the stndardized test schools. Rangi, St. Andrew's and Christ's College lead the South Island (and therefore Christchurch too) Boy's High and Girl's High followed. And then a long list of other schools. I see mention of Burnside, which placed high among the public schools. This was last year's resluts.

For us it was a toss up between Christ College and St. Andrew's. The cost is about the same. Christ College is older, St Andrew's is Co-ed. We chose St Andrew's because they have a better shooting team, better technology labs. and a different boarding policy that appealed to us. However, I would not say it is 'better.'

Our son is quite academic, so test results were important. And, coming from the US, it has been a challenge to align with the math programs in NZ schools. Initially, he was more than 2 years ahead. Now, at the high school level, the direction that math takes is different...and he is in a good place.

To say that the public schools are just as good as private is probably not accurate. I think it is more accurate to say that top students at any of the schools are likely to preform very well, no matter which school. But there are significant differences. In dicipline, behaviour, bullying (a major NZ prolem, test scores and cultural offerings.) We have visited Christ's COllege, St Andrew's, Boy's High. And, they are not at all the same.

Our son is/will be in the folowing sports for this year: Yatching and Sailing Team, squash, rugby, tennis, clay shooting, hockey, swimming, chess.
And that was the list after I made him narrow it down! All the big schools have tons of sports. THis was from the St Andrew's List.

I can only tell you that my son, and his peers, all want to stay at school for the weekends...they just love the whole thing. Wow! What a great situation.

The Chch Press published last years test info.

Yours,
Jennifer

[seattle]

hi jennifer- thank you so much for your informative reply! It helps to have an opinion from someone who has experience/perspective from both types of schools. It is also nice to hear that a lot of people are happy with their choice of public schools. We have set up meetings with 3 private schools including Selwyn House which I understand is also a feeder school. Were you happy with Cathedral Grammar as well? thanks!!!!

[Junnifer USA]

Hello,
Yes, Cathedral Grammar was very good. And Selwyn House has a reputation of being inthe same league...and St Margarets, and Rangi.
I do have a piece of advice though.
If your child(ren) are approaching year 8, the last year of primary school, consider a primary school that has an upper school/high school attached. As an American, used to much more competition and more options, the exam/entry process is a bit of a learning curve, and stressful, since there are few options if you don't get the school you want. My son entered Cathedral grammar in the 4th term of year 7. Five terms later he was finished.... If there had been space, it would have been much better to enter into year 7 at St. ANdrews/St. Margarets for girls, and then skip the year 8 test/interview/wait and see process. If you are in the lower schools, you walk into the high schools pretty much automatically. It was all one more hassle, one more stress, and one more school change than we needed when wwe were in our first 18 months here. And, nobody gives you a full picture, or good advice....everyone just advocates the choice they made...? I think Amrericans are much more critical and open about discussing their child's school. Here, you often hear a giant cheerleading chorus...for whatever choice the crowd made.

When you visit any of these top schools, St Andrews (STAC),Christ's, Rangi, St Margarets, you will find a number of Americans (representing more than our proportion immigrating to NZ). And upon talking with them, you hear them repeat their dissatisfaction with local schools.

US schools encourage competition, narrowing the focus on studies, and individual achievement. NZ schools encourage a wider bredth of topical exposure, less competition until year 10-12, focus on a better balanced life, and a great deal more social skills.

Plus, since all the race for awards/clubs/honors...does not effect your university entry process....the ability to develop interests/sports skills offers more opportunity.

If you are demanding about a quality education, coming to NZ is a learning experience for parents. The system and goals are very different.

Jen

[seattle]

Hi Jen- thanks sooo much for your information- your advice does apply to one of our girls. (year 7 next year) Do you have any idea what the acceptance rate is from the feeder schools (such as Selwyn?). I think most of the schools are full until next year (at least for our children's grades) so we would have to do another school for a half year (while applying to the bigger schools). We'll find out more in a few weeks when we visit the schools. Also- I didn't notice any testing requirements to get into these schools? We have been living in Europe for the past year and have experienced the same thing about Americans being apt to be more critical about the school, curriculum, etc. Thanks again!

[Junnifer USA]

Hello Again,

Yes, some of the schools have tests and interviews. The other thing they do is talk to the various headmasters...Christ's College sits with Cathedral Grammar's Boys headmaster and reviews each childs academic and sports performance.

Its a very fuzzy system...and I have never read anything published about their entry rates. However, each school can tell you where their year 8 students went: Cathedral Grammar year 8 boys: 2 to St. Andrews, 2 to Boys High, Rest to Christ College.
My son interviewed, and tested. He got into all three. The Boys High 'Lottery' is a bit of a fraud (but that is a seperate issue). St. Margaret/Selwyn...they will b able to tell you exactly where last years class went.

You should visit...it makes all the difference. And, we had our son visit with us on a seperate, second tour of the school. Unlike some public schools you get a very keen sense of individual tone and character. FOr the first time we took his input very seriously. We felt he had reached an age of some judgement. Fortunately his preference met with our preference.

My son is coming home on Friday...he is already begging to stay at school next weekend! Gosh...this is such an unbelievable change from years of complaints about boring classes, difficult peers, discipline problems in the class room...blah blah blah... He has more good friends to choose from than ever before...not an unpleasant complaint... Wow!

yours,
Jen

[seattle]

Hi again- unfortunately we aren't bringing our daughters for our trip in a few weeks (we are flying from Europe so the flight will be 24 plus hours through L.A.- brutal!)- and we're meeting with relo firm. We still haven't decided 100% if we are moving to CC or going back to U.S. - our visit w/these CC schools will have a huge impact on our decision (my kids attended one of the best public schools in WA). We are very much attracted to some of the positive things that you have mentioned that differ in the NZ schools. We have also found a few of these positive things in their current school in Europe but they are just too darn bored right now (and one of my daughters espcially is starting to dislike school)

You mentioned that "all the race for awards/clubs/honors...does not effect your university entry process"- why is this?

thanks again for your input! L

[richard]

FWIW there was an article in the ChCh Press today about schools and their NCEA exam results. The full school tables and article is here:-

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/3992859a6009.html

[Junnifer USA]

The article is very helpful in test results. The statement contained about the bacheloriate program students contributing to a mmisinterpretation in noteworthy. None-the-less this serves as a guideline. I also know the Kaiapoi and Rangiora public schools (which lots of the Brits swear by) and I would say the relatively low scores do reflect my overall impression of them.

When you take your university exams, you are not filling out endless applications for placements as in the US....a history of every award or club you have recieved a gold star from. Those life enriching events that make you well rounded are seperate from University exams. In my opinion, while it has taken some adjustment for us as parents, and our role in encouraging our son's education, this system is very well rounded. My son is free to explore new interests, and participate in a sport where he is a second tier palyer...not number one, without concern over missing out on an award...that would end up on his college application.
For example, our son is a very good swimmer. In the US I would have kept him in that direction...looking towards college applications. Now he wants to learn how to play squash and be on the sailing club. They aren't going to win him awards towards college...but he has a wider field of interest and experience now. Has learned a ton from the sailing program. ANd loves squash.
When you move here you will see that this is a very small country where the ability to socialize and make friends is important...already I meet friends and friends of friends in other NZ cities.. They say that everyone in NZ is only twice removed (not six steps away). The emphasis on social ease, skills, and all around development is important. And, I think the kiwi spirit of 'fixing anything with 8 guage wire' is reflected in the emphasis of having a broad early education. Specialization starts around year 10/11 and then University. In the US, you may already be tracked in a direction (especially in math) before year 8.

Go Rangi Girls! great test scores again!

Yours
Jen

[seattle]

Hi Jen- I hear you...one of the major reasons we aren't rushing back to the U.S. My oldest daughter was on a traveling soccer team and she had to give up a lot of her other interests/sports to play on the team. (plus they have tryouts every year for the team which is stressful) Either the kids end up being forced to narrow their choices or else they end up being overscheduled and burnt out at a young age trying to do "everything" - (or too much of one thing). Not to mention- good luck being eligible to play on the high school sports team if your kid hasn't been playing it since age 5! - its that competitive! Also, a lot of school time in the U.S. is spent preparing the kids for the state tests that are given in certain grades (and determine how much federal funding the particular school will get based on scores, improvement, etc.) - which is frustrating for the teachers and the students. Anyway, we are looking to move to NZ by choice (not job driven at this point)- I know it isn't the perfect place, but overall it sounds like you are very satisfied from an educational standpoint- good to hear.

Also the above post with link above re: NCEA scores is helpful- is there a similar list for Auckland schools? I couldn't find anywhere?
L

[Junnifer USA]

Yes, what you mentioned about sports and school is exactly what we were experiencing. And since when did playing soccor your entire childhood become the end all? We were in the swimmin rut, the tennis rut. What is you love two sports with overlapping seasons. Inthe US you choose one and stick with it...so you can make the team the next year...and the next year. i wasn't expecting my son ( any of our three sons. We have only the youngest one here) to earn his living off of the sport. I wanted healthy fun for life. Unfortunately, in our area, if you weren't focused you would be nixed out for highschool teams. And, forget about University. No wonder kids re growing up with weight problems. This certainly contributes. My kid is into one sport or another Tues-Friday, and then Saturday too. On Sunday, he goes to the gym or the Rugby field with his 'mates'.

ANd, we were also in the same test score rut. It started in grade 3! When our districts split, the principle actually lied to us to get our son into his school, because he tests so well. Good God. WHen the administrator clued me in, mid way into the term, we were out of there.

My kids had over an hour of homework in total starting in year 2. It made activity in the dark, dreary winter impossible. And, I was exhausted trying to help little ones who just wanted some play time...and much to fidgity and cranky for that!

I am sure Auckland must have something similiar published. But, if you have job options, come try Chch. We were planning to be on the North Island. A strange event caused us to come to the S. Island, which we had not visited before. Chch is a unique place. Big enough to be a city, small enough that you are not anonomous, and have the advantages of a big town. Wait till you see what a snap the traffic is here. (Auckland is the second most sprawled city after LA) NZ is great. CHch is fantastic. And, I love our little town on the rim of the city.

Btw: we have Vonage. It has a US tel number, if you are in the US, a call costs the same as tinging Atlanta. If you have questions you can call on that. Anything else you need pre-visit?

Jen and Bill

[Sam B]

This really fascinates me - the system in the US. At the moment we are working our way throug "The Sopranos" and I have noticed (I don't know whether it's accurate of course - it's only a TV programme after all) how much pressure there is on Meadow Soprano in her final years at school to get solos in the choir and stuff just so she can get in to a good college. It looks really tough and must stop school from being much fun. What happens if you have a bright but introverted child, who doesn't do sport or singing or anything, but is v clever - do they just have to go to a rubbish college? Just curious really...

[Junnifer USA]

Ammerican Culture...such a refined thing!!

Yes, it is a problem. Kids have grades, Scholatic Aptitude Tests (Taken in year 11 mostly, and operated via a Princeton operation at a National Level) and then extracurricular achievements (awards, honors...)

In the case you described, the kid has an edge on grades and SAT scores. Better find something he is good at...chess, writing, math team, music....something. For a top school, it takes more than grades and SATs. For kids aiming high, this is a long competition for awards, honors, positions...for that University application.

Or, buy the placement...like on the Sapranos! Make a big donation to the school. George Bush went to Harvard...how'd ya think he got in!

btw: Today's NY TImes discusses the Harvard Endowment, largest of all US Schools, 3rd largest in the US. The Bill Gates Endowment/Trust is the largest. nytimes.com

[Sam B]

That facinates me, it must put so much pressure on young people, and take all the fun out of what are, essentially, hobbies - extra-curricular activities that should be part of your relaxation time. Do most American's just accept it is so? I really value time for my kids to just chill out, and even be bored, because that is when they usually discover their imaginations. As a parent you must have to spend your whole time co-ordinating your child's sporting and other events calendar to ensure they are doing enough? Does the system make it hard for young people from deprived backgrounds and poorer schools to get to top unis?

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, I just find this very interesting.

[Sam B]

Grrr, just noticed I put an apostrophe in Americans when I shouldn't have. I hate misplaced apostrophes!!

[seattle]

:nice1 actually- i don't think we americans just "accept" it- most just don't know any better...We knew we were overscheduled and busy when we were in the U.S. but it wasn't until we moved to Europe for an expat assignment that we gained a different perspective. Our kids are still busy and involved in a lot but not nearly as much or the same level of competition as they were at home. There are differing "professional" opinions and studies that have been done on the overscheduled, overachieving environment in the U.S. A recent article in Time magazine concluded that its not as bad as some people have claimed- different reasons-for example- kids are kept busy thus keep out of trouble etc. The article claimed its the parents who get the raw deal because they are the ones that are at the mercy of their kids busy schedules, driving everywhere, coordinating schedules, etc. But you do see kids that are forced to narrow their choices at an early age- and you also see families that can never sit down for dinner together during the week since they are super busy w/their activities. Also we experienced the "divide and conquer" syndrome where my husband would be going one way on :nice1 :nice1 weekends to one of my daughter's tournament and I would be going somewhere else for my other daughter's games. (then poor kid #3 is just dragged around to their siblings games/practices). We have lots of friends in America who are perfectly happy w/all of these activities and love staying busy. Its a type of "culture"- a lot of weekend socializing with other parents at their children's games, swim meets, etc. I've personally had enough of this craziness and I think my kids have realized they have too- especially when they recieve emails from their friends in the U.S. saying they have 2 soccer games, swim clinic and lacrosse practice all in the same day!

And Jen is absolutely right about the "resume" needed to get into a top university (and don't forget to add the charity work as well...) But that being said, there are a lot of options for great programs in universities that aren't the ivy league or other top tier schools. (that aren't considered "rubbish" colleges) And the high schools have counselors on staff who's job is to navigate students through the application process (which I've heard is still incredibly stressful for the kids- tons of essays/applications, interviews, test prep courses, etc.). A lot of universities are thinking of doing away with the S.A.T. test for admissions though- says its not fair to lower income/lower affluent applicants who can't afford SAT prep course, etc... Anyway, the whole thing can be overwhelming.

Again- thanks Jen for your posts- this is my first experience writing on a blog and I'm amazed at the weath of information and the willingness of people like you to take the time to answer questions from someone like us (or maybe that's just common for kiwis!) L

[seattle]

oops, you can tell I'm a "beginner" because I clearly don't know how to use the Smiley face icons- somehow they've ended up in some weird places in my post- sorry!

[nippa&pippa]

OMG....bit too much pressure on kids in america????:exit

[seattle]

yep but a lot of U.S. kids don't know any better...its just a way of life. The parents who are questioning it are the ones (like me) who didn't grow up in the U.S. this way...and are wondering how it got so out of control...

[Junnifer USA]

I questioned it, and so did some of my friends. I was fed up running around in the car all afternoon and evening and then all weekend too. But when it comes to application time...not to mention scholarships!!!! there isn't much you can do about it. And, you have to compete with parents of much greater economic means. They can hire a nanny to drive and pick up, pay for private lessons, a tutor, then they get a college entrance 'consultant' who helps with the minefield of knowing what the schools are looking for in the various essays....

I actually started to get a bum knee because I was locked into on sitting position in the car, with leg angled for the excellerator peddle for so many hours of the week!

One interesting article I read said that this generation...the eldest of which are now in college and beyond...are so used to being the center of all planning, scheduling and priorities, that they are having difficulty adjusting to adulthood where you do things out of self-motivation, passion, civic duty...or rather...without the 'backing,' effort, and whirl of someone organizing and then praising them for every little award and achievement. What an adjustment it must be after school years where really nobody cares if you get another soccor certificate, another karate belt, or get to be president of the local civic club... Good for you, but your boss couldn't give a fig newton...and it doesn't get you a raise!

Of course this doesn't apply to every kid. But to many, the race towards a college application for a brand name school has consumed much of their childhood, and really all the teen years.

How about the Moms (and Dads)? What a drag. I love soccor...but i have to tell you, it became a drag. Little league was miserable. Tennis was snity. And, while I met some cool parents, they weren't my real friends. Most of the conversation was about another organized event, another coach... I red a lot of books through these periods! At least the swimming facility was warm and steamy in the winter time!

Ever sit through a weekend of chess tournaments. It is like watching paint dry! (My kid went to the US Nationals in Atlanta... he loves it...this year he is learning to play squash instead!)

Burnt Out Mom... finding a real life in NZ,
Jen

[wilson182]

This is a fastincating thread. Thanks for the insight into American life guys.:nice1

[seattle]

Hi Jen- another question- I've been hearing great things about St. Andrews but have also head it isn't as "academic" as some of the other private schools. Does your son plan to go to a University in the U.S. and if so, do you have any concerns about him coming from this school (although it does sound like he is very gifted so he probably will have no problems?) I know the question of "academics" is relative... and everyone seems to have a different opinion of each school (and I've also been hearing that the Auckland schools are "more academic"- but I appreciate your take on living in such a sprawling area- like a little Los Angeles...

thx, L

[Sam B]

I could never be a mum in America. I'm too selfish. I like doing things with my kids each w/e but it's got to be things that I like too - like going to the beach, climbing mountains etc. I could never be selfless enough to spend hours watching them do endless sports just so they could get credits for college. I can't imagine my life being like that - it's actually winding me up just thinking about it!!

I know so many successful adults who have not been to top private schools, and may not have had a particularly academic schooling - bright, well balanced people will generally do well whatever schooling they have, and childhood should be a happy time, without all the pressures and stress of adulthood, I believe.

This is not to say I think private school is a bad idea, but I think your children will do well wherever they go, because you care about them and want the best for them.

[seattle]

Yep- great advice! I'm hoping a private school will be able to provide a challenging learning environment. Right now, at my kids current school in Europe, they are bored and are starting to dislike school which is not a good thing! I don't want to risk that again...