[robberger]

what a shame - up until that post i was really enjoying how such a difficult topic was being discussed with disagreements but no real abuse/ranting etc

robberger you just went seriously down in my estimation. not for your views but for your inability to discuss them in a civil manner.

Okay, I've gone back and read my comments to which Trigirl made this response.

I have to agree with Trigirl to this extent: while I believe I was on point, the attitude portrayed in presenting the point was sarcastic and therefore not right. Please accept my apologies.

My point still stands--and will prove out over time. Watch.

By the way, my name is Rob Berger--just call me Rob.

[robberger]

no its merely your opinion. i understand that people like to state their dearly held opinions as fact but that doesn't actually make them facts.

And as I understand it, when one disagrees with a fact, one can always call it an opinion.

[Oregonkiwi]

Seriously, Rob, don't you have better things to do than this? (Like maybe spending some weekend time with your children?)
People who are comfortable with their choices don't usually feel the need to spend quite so much time justifying themselves to strangers.

[robberger]

Just got back from the playground :D

Good point, OregonKiwi...good point.

Seriously...I am actually nearly through here, having pretty much laid everything out as best I can. People have no excuse, and my conscience is clear.

Tomorrow, finish packing...next day to drop boxes off at the warehouse, and next day, assuming airline tickets and passports are at the hotel, we fly out.

Basically we're just hanging...

[SarahEDH]

hi Oregonkiwi,

I saw your question to me a few pages back and didn't want to ignore it. I promise the forum that this is my last post on the topic, although PMs are welcome -- I don't want to wear everybody out. I do have a rock-solid immovable orientation on this topic, as you can tell. I have one child, a daughter who's almost 23, and I raised her without hitting. She's done well, no truancy or delinquency, no drug abuse or shoplifting. She graduated from USC last year, works in her dream job as computer game designer in LA, and she's very big into the animal rescue movement. Good kid, compassionate and loving, but I'm biased. I realize one child must be easier to manage than two or more -- that's a valid point to consider. But I can only speak to what I know. I always felt that hitting would have been a betrayal and breach of her trust in me and deeply disrespectful to her as a person. That was the emotional response for me; I just couldn't do it and never wanted to. On the intellectual side, sure I was exhausted from endlessly explaining our requests and admonitions -- but that was the choice we made instead of hitting to get her to do something. My daughter as a toddler was (and is today) articulate, loves to discuss and analyze. Even at two years old she had the capacity to understand and accept basic logic. I can't help thinking that the time her dad and I spent talking with her, not just "to" her, had the result of reducing frustration for everybody. If we told her why we wanted her to do something, and if was reasonable (as it should have been -- kids shouldn't be jerked around either), 98% of the time she just did it. Being spoken to with respect and being heard when it was her turn to talk. In a nutshell that was Childraising 101 for us. I don't even know why it turned out that way. I was 20 and my husband 22 when she was born, and two more clueless, unprepared parents the world has never seen. My daughter must have had a guardian deity of some kind, a bodhisattva watching over her ;)

[veronica]

No it sounds like she was an easygoing child with a reasonable IQ and undivided attention from her parents.

My foster daughters little 'un is like that (most of the time) and he has had a lot of attention being the baby amongst a group of articulate intelligent teenagers. Hes the easiest one I have dealt with but also the most placid. The nature of the child comes into it so much.

[Jo Jo]

Or the product of good parenting. :yes

[Jo Jo]

Khalil Gibran and Hitler have NOTHING on Solomon:



Oh my God. I really, really can't believe you quoted Hitler.

I am astounded. I have never, ever seen anyone quote Hitler in any argument, ever.

Blimey.

[robberger]

:D

[Tia Maria]

Lets see if Godwin's Law is correct in this case!

Cheers

Tia

[robberger]

Godwin's Law? Thanks Tia, I just learned something new.

Politically Correct never has really agreed with me...too much like sensorship and I like freedom!

People who refuse to learn from history...Nazi...Communist...or otherwise, are doomed to repeat it.

[stu70]

Godwin's Law? Thanks Tia, I just learned something new.

Politically Correct never has really agreed with me...too much like sensorship and I like freedom!

People who refuse to learn from history...Nazi...Communist...or otherwise, are doomed to repeat it.

Adding to your list would be my favourites : Mr Bush and his team of rummy, cheney,rice,rove,etc. And for sure they did not learn from Vietnam did they? As for communism, I would argue that the notion failed but did not cause as much damage as clowns in the white house

[robberger]

Hi Stu: if we were talking broadly about learning from history...of course, feel free to add anyone you want to the list.

I was trying to keep it (more or less) on topic with philosphers/ideologues who believe they have more claim to (other people's) children than the children's parents.

--Rob