[upnorthkyosa]

I've read that NZ has no gaurd rails on its roads. Is this true? Are there alot of deaths because of this?

My wife and I are considering traveling NZ in a campervan. The prospect of driving on a mountain road with a 200 meter drop on one side with NO GAURD RAIL is a little frightening.

[Trigirl]

where did you read that? there are guard rails on many roads in NZ.

[swank]

http://www.bluehum.net/gallery2/d/374-2/2004-09-12_03-06-57.jpg
http://www.bluehum.net/gallery2/d/377-2/2004-09-30_13-00-40.jpg

http://www.bluehum.net/gallery2/d/89-2/2004-09-30_13-00-59.jpg

http://www.bluehum.net/gallery2/d/90-2/2004-09-30_16-22-12.jpg

[Kim39]

They are there, but they are not in abundance, and on some roads they are just strengthened wooden boards. As a milk tanker driver who has been into area's where some folk wouldn't even think of going, as i'm climbing the mountain roads and realising there is a biggggggggg drop either side and no rails, and topping up at 44 tonnes it does get a bit scary.

Kim

[veronica]

theres none to speak of when you drive up to the ski resorts here either. thats the first adrenaline rush of a days skiing.

[sizzlingbadger]

Swank, where are the pics taken from ? Love to go over that bridge:D

Parts over the hill (Wellington to Wairarapa) have guard rails (well wooden boards), parts of it have posts swaying in the wind and wire fencing :uhoh with a big drop. Scary at first but you get used to it after a while.

Some roads are better than others though.

[Jenny & Mark]

From a Canadian perspective, I did find the lack of (or very, very minimal use of) guard rails quite a shock. Mind you, I only saw the North Island.

Mark.

[gil]

I think there's a distinct lack of guard rails in lots of places, certainly in France (the Dordogne and Pyrenees) and in Italy!

Haven't explored too much here, but there weren't guard rails around the Waitakere Ranges. There was however an abundance of bush, so you couldn't really see how scary it was!

Gil

[Moorf]

That bridge looks like the one on the West Coast near Shantytown where the railroad crosses straight through a roundabout (honest!) and then you have to negotiate this bridge, which trains also use! Was a bit hairy..... :yes

[jaycee]

I think there's a distinct lack of guard rails in lots of places, certainly in France (the Dordogne and Pyrenees) and in Italy!

Haven't explored too much here, but there weren't guard rails around the Waitakere Ranges. There was however an abundance of bush, so you couldn't really see how scary it was!

Quite - that's my journey into town. You do get used to it, I'm more bothered by the people who somehow manage to do 120kph round those bends (and who are always behind me trying to get past). I'd think twice about taking a lift from any of them!

Along the North York Moors Road (England) they have huge notices telling you how many people have been killed or injured. I've never seen any of those here, just a big poster saying "Ride carefully, Ride forever". I remember going to Italy years ago and they had a different kind of safety reminder - rusted out wrecks left down the sides of the mountains.

[Ana&Steve]

I think a few more NZ guardrails would make me happy:nice1
Along the North York Moors Road (England) they have huge notices telling you how many people have been killed or injured. I've never seen any of those here, just a big poster saying "Ride carefully, Ride forever". I remember going to Italy years ago and they had a different kind of safety reminder - rusted out wrecks left down the sides of the mountains.
There is a sign on the side of the road as you enter Napier from the Taupo road that states: Welcome to Napier. We have 4 cemeteries and NO hospitals. SLOW DOWN!:uhoh

Ana

[Super_BQ]

John,

You're not gonna find roads in NZ as safe as in N. America. But at least, if you're a competent driver you should have no problems.

Though i'm not a truck driver, my occupation makes me drive over 10,000kms every year in Canada/Alaska & NZ. I've been doing this for the past 10 years and can say by experience, NZ simply doesn't have the resources to build roads like in America. The US has the biggest consumption per capita of crude oil and without a doubt, they've got the roads to prove it.

Wide roads with huge safety margins on the shoulder. In Canada the most common guard rail I saw were those large concrete ones you see to divided 2/way traffic on the 4 lane freeways. Those familiar with driving in Canada, where temperatures well below -20 C during the winter months will understand what it's like driving on black ice. (and the ability to stay far behind the vehicle in front). Luckily NZ doesn't have the same climate - more crashes as drivers crash along the bends. Everytime I see a concrete guard that show signs of a car crash, it reminds me there's 1 less driver that didn't have to face death.

I've had this argument in the past by many local NZ residents. They are quick to only point all the bad things why the US is such a pig in consuming so much oil. But most don't make the link to the cost of life?

In order to build safer roads, you need to consume more oil and gas. In order to increase your chances of living in a car crash with a small car, you simply drive a bigger car (which burns more petro). Would society be more productive if the roads were safer resulting in less deaths? Certainly. But some would disagree and view it from a different angle.

Every year in NZ during Christmas holidays, there's always talk about the road toll deaths. I know growing up in BC (Canada), you did hear the odd death over Xmas holidays but never to the point that it was a media concern. In fact as we speak, the most dangerous highway (north of Vancouver) is getting a complete new reconstruction in host for the 2010 Winter Olympic games. It's a like a 4 lane highway being constructed from the turn off to Hamner Springs (driving north State Hwy 1 from Christchurch) to Kaikoura (all rocky coastline).

Here's a question. Which results in less road deaths?

1) Better drivers with more skill in driving and passing (overtaking) or

2) Safer highways?

My uncle gave me the point that state highways with more twists and turns are better to drive than the straight dead flat roads. He claims that they are more fun and keeps you alert.

Though he may bet that a straight road means being bored and more likely to fall asleep, roads that are twisty and up and down require more thought and skill to navigate. The more you have to do, the more likely you could mis-judge a bend. BTW, it's not speed that is the biggest killer (often portrayed in billboard signs in NZ) but rather, it's being fatigue and tired behind the wheel that causes the most accidents.

Perhaps NZ needs to build more 'rest areas' and large long stopping points in areas where the highway is very twisty and hilly?

[neilw71]

Our sister company sells them here (http://www.csppacific.co.nz/) - so please can you all continue your campaigns for more barriers to your local councils and Transit :) :) :)

Neil

[sarahw]

Parts over the hill (Wellington to Wairarapa) have guard rails (well wooden boards), parts of it have posts swaying in the wind and wire fencing :uhoh with a big drop. Scary at first but you get used to it after a while.

Yep that'll be the Rimutakas, and believe me, that's one heck of a lot better these days than it was 4 years ago!! Although someone fell 50 metres in a BMW (and lived to tell the tale) off the road last week... guessing there were no guard rails on that part!

[sarahw]

My uncle gave me the point that state highways with more twists and turns are better to drive than the straight dead flat roads. He claims that they are more fun and keeps you alert.

:) :) In that case Greek drivers must be the most alert drivers in the world???!!! ;) I don't think they've heard of guard rails either - or even flimsy posts at the edge of the road - just sheer drops & crazy drivers!!

[nippa&pippa]

My uncle gave me the point that state highways with more twists and turns are better to drive than the straight dead flat roads. He claims that they are more fun and keeps you alert.



Have you driven along Queen Charlotte's Drive???

More of neck-breaking drive with stiff neck by the time the drive finished, lovely views as we drove along that road but my OH miss out the view as he was very concentrate on road, few corners with guard rails and few corners without guard rail.....:eek:

[migratory birds]

If you plan your route to drive countrerclockwise around the Islands, you should be okay!

[dbonnett]

John,

You're not gonna find roads in NZ as safe as in N. America. But at least, if you're a competent driver you should have no problems.

[...] NZ simply doesn't have the resources to build roads like in America. The US has the biggest consumption per capita of crude oil and without a doubt, they've got the roads to prove it....

...I've had this argument in the past by many local NZ residents. They are quick to only point all the bad things why the US is such a pig in consuming so much oil. But most don't make the link to the cost of life?


Sorry Super_BQ, but I have to rebut your argument. The US is NOT safer than NZ with regards to driving. In fact, our fatality rates are significantly higher.

To exhume an old posting of mine (from another thread about how "bad" the roads are in NZ):The rate of traffic deaths was something I had pondered as well (don't want no 'horror crashes'!), so I decided to compare NZ's annual toll with Colorado (also about 4 million people, same geographic area and also has mountainous roads with snow, etc).

The results were interesting: for 2004: NZ has 446 dead, CO had 665 (almost 50% higher :eek: )- I won't go into other years, but NZ has shown a significant rate of decline in deaths over the last 10+ years, while the US toll has dropped, but at a much smaller pace.

I haven't driven in NZ (yet), but my suspicion is that the lower traffic speeds and smaller vehicles help to keep the number of fatalities below what it could be; in Colorado it is a common thing to see huge passenger vehicles (3000+ kilos) pass you at better than 128 km/hr.!:exit
In short, when you compare a state with 956 miles of Interstate highway to a country with 106 miles of expressway, the death rate is not lower, instead it is markedly higher.

To tie back to the initial thread, I was quite taken aback when we moved to Colorado and I would drive over a mountain pass on a 2 lane road with no guardrails, even though the drop off the side was often 200+ feet! I have also seen the remnants of cars & trucks that have gone over the side and been abandoned - one looked like it had been through a crusher :no It definitely got me to pay attention on that road.

[Super_BQ]

Have you driven along Queen Charlotte's Drive???

We talking the highway on Queen Charlotte Island? My previous post regards to major highways where there's high traffic.

http://travel.bc.ca/regions/northern-british-columbia/

Which specific route otherwise? The Yellowhead Hwy 16 is in a very good highway and well maintained. But in terms of roads in rural areas, well all bets are off because anything can happen.

The results were interesting: for 2004: NZ has 446 dead, CO had 665 (almost 50% higher )- I won't go into other years, but NZ has shown a significant rate of decline in deaths over the last 10+ years, while the US toll has dropped, but at a much smaller pace.

Colorado is nothing like NZ. How can you compare the amount of snow Colorado gets during NZ's winter months (how many snow plow trucks do you see in State Hwy 1 in NZ?) What percentage of those accidents are caused on the highway vs. in city accidents? I would suggest looking at the # of deaths that occur during the winter time in Colorado. I do know that accident deaths in NZ are well publicised during the SUMMER month of December. The relation is that during Xmas time, people in NZ tend to travel more and thus, high risk of being in a car accident. (one would think the opposite would hold as summer weather presents not snow or black ice).

Do Americans do more driving than New Zealanders living in NZ in a given year?

In short, when you compare a state with 956 miles of Interstate highway to a country with 106 miles of expressway, the death rate is not lower, instead it is markedly higher.

Again you can't look on absolute death rates. I've travelled from Invercargill to the very north of NZ (to the light house) and I don't recall any part of State Hwy 1 driving over a mountain like the one you described. But I do know that I can see the majority of the road is constructed along the contours of the geographical plane. Even travelling at full 100kms/hr speed on say a straight passing lane, the road itself isn't built high above the fence levels. Hills where the road follows over can easily of been blasted through. Of course as mentioned before, it's all due to costs.

How many single lane bridges exist in Colorado on it's main Interstate Highway?

I'm not trying to promote similar highway construction practices in NZ. But to say that roads built here is safer than in America (where they have far more resources to allocated to highways) is silly. But when you build the highway on a higher base level, it eliminates a lot of future problems. Main reason due to 'frost heaves' ; caused by cracks in the black top, water flows in during the fall season, then by winter that water turns to ice which creates all your pot holes and ripples along the highway in spring time. But then this has no regard to scary mountain passes where people can drive off the road.

BQ

[dbonnett]

Apologies to all whose eyes are glazing over at the stats:laugh Skip to another thread now.. (This is all in good humor for the obtuse)

Colorado is nothing like NZ.
So who started the comparisons of NZ to North America? If Colorado isn't a good data point, then where is? If you wanna talk turkey, bring your data. As I said before, CO and NZ are about the same population and same area - heck the CIA World Factbook describes (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nz.html#Geo) NZ as "about the size of Colorado."

How can you compare the amount of snow Colorado gets during NZ's winter months (how many snow plow trucks do you see in State Hwy 1 in NZ?) What percentage of those accidents are caused on the highway vs. in city accidents? I would suggest looking at the # of deaths that occur during the winter time in Colorado. I do know that accident deaths in NZ are well publicised during the SUMMER month of December. The relation is that during Xmas time, people in NZ tend to travel more and thus, high risk of being in a car accident. (one would think the opposite would hold as summer weather presents not snow or black ice).
Well.. CO crashes from 2005 (courtesy of US DOT National Center for Statistics and Analysis). These numbers are for crashes, not fatalities, but the numbers will correlate:
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Total
97 65 121 95 158 175 173 142 127 80 128 124 1485
You will notice that the higher crashes rates are during the summer here, just like NZ, so snow does not appear to be a major factor.
Do Americans do more driving than New Zealanders living in NZ in a given year?
Good question; we do have a tendency to drive much longer distances (I often do near 100 miles/day) Another factor is the traffic from other states, especially since lots of people can and do drive into CO from outside - something hard to do with NZ.

Again you can't look on absolute death rates. I've travelled from Invercargill to the very north of NZ (to the light house) and I don't recall any part of State Hwy 1 driving over a mountain like the one you described. But I do know that I can see the majority of the road is constructed along the contours of the geographical plane. Even travelling at full 100kms/hr speed on say a straight passing lane, the road itself isn't built high above the fence levels. Hills where the road follows over can easily of been blasted through. Of course as mentioned before, it's all due to costs.
If we aren't talking absolute death rates, what are we talking about then?

To quote from the Colorado State Patrol Annual Report for 2004:Coloradoans tend to view other drivers’ behaviors as the main threat to their safety when on the road, as compared to poor road design or maintenance
Without digging for the numbers (go ahead, dare me :p ) most of the accidents here happen on 4+ lane highways on low grades during normal weather, not in the mountains. The 65/75 mph speed limits only add to the carnage.

How many single lane bridges exist in Colorado on it's main Interstate Highway?
Thank god, none - since you would be run over by the (informal) CO state animal (a soccer mom in a Sport Ute on her cell phone) while trying to cross. We do have one lane roads and lots of unsealed routes, but the fatality rates there are much lower due to the reduced speeds (as told to me by a police officer friend)

I'm not trying to promote similar highway construction practices in NZ. But to say that roads built here is safer than in America (where they have far more resources to allocated to highways) is silly. But when you build the highway on a higher base level, it eliminates a lot of future problems. Main reason due to 'frost heaves' ; caused by cracks in the black top, water flows in during the fall season, then by winter that water turns to ice which creates all your pot holes and ripples along the highway in spring time. But then this has no regard to scary mountain passes where people can drive off the road.
BQ
Once again, big wide highways on the flat don't equate to safe roads, only to opportunities for people to outdrive their abilities.

Your turn..;)

[nippa&pippa]

Queen charlotte drive, is a road from Havelock to picton, Malborough, without had to go round via blenheim. Accord to book 'Narrow winding scenic drive road'

[Super_BQ]

So who started the comparisons of NZ to North America? If Colorado isn't a good data point, then where is? If you wanna talk turkey, bring your data. As I said before, CO and NZ are about the same population and same area - heck the CIA World Factbook describes NZ as "about the size of Colorado."

But does that mean people have the same driving habits in both counties? Certainly there are a lot of differences besides the size of the land mass and population. The discussion is to give advice to those from the US (or N. America) wanting to drive on NZ roads.

You will notice that the higher crashes rates are during the summer here, just like NZ, so snow does not appear to be a major factor.

So going by your data, would you assume highway roads in NZ are as safe as in America for the given level of congestion, etc?

Good question; we do have a tendency to drive much longer distances (I often do near 100 miles/day) Another factor is the traffic from other states, especially since lots of people can and do drive into CO from outside - something hard to do with NZ.

I think if drivers in NZ clocked the same # of miles as Americans do, you'd see a different tune. I can't find any online data specific to NZ in this area.

To quote from the Colorado State Patrol Annual Report for 2004:
Coloradoans tend to view other drivers’ behaviors as the main threat to their safety when on the road, as compared to poor road design or maintenance

In NZ, the Police view speed is the primary cause of fatalities on NZ roads:

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/road/

More meaning data for NZ fatalities here:

http://www.investigatemagazine.com/july00speed.htm

Interesting to read: (which explains the lack of meaningful data)

One of the reasons that road toll statistics supplied by the old Ministry of Transport, and latterly the LTSA, have been misleading is because the LTSA does not measure "deaths per vehicle kilometre travelled", which is the only true measure of whether the road toll is really going up or down.

In BC (Canada) has a similar arguement:

http://www.sense.bc.ca/research.htm

Without digging for the numbers (go ahead, dare me ) most of the accidents here happen on 4+ lane highways on low grades during normal weather, not in the mountains. The 65/75 mph speed limits only add to the carnage.

I won't disagree. However, more meaningful data is required, as listed in the previous quote. Absolute # of fatalities are fine but are far from the whole picture.

Once again, big wide highways on the flat don't equate to safe roads, only to opportunities for people to outdrive their abilities.

If wider roads and 4 lane highways don't equate to being safer, then why is all the fuss to building them in the 1st place? Higher traffic congestion not only leads to issues in safety but also other economic factors like lower productivity, road rage, and burning excess fuel.

Again, can we assume NZ residents have the same driving habits as in N. America?

In terms of people outdriving their ability in NZ. In my experience (and not necessarily the same for others), I more than often find other vehicles driving too close to me from behind. Whether driving on the highway or city, there's always someone that is within 1 car length behind my rear bumper. If NZ had weather similiar to Canada, i'm sure the road death statistic would sing a different tune overall.

:nice1

[Debbie P.]

Queen charlotte drive, is a road from Havelock to picton, Malborough, without had to go round via blenheim. Accord to book 'Narrow winding scenic drive road'

I remember that road :eek: My lower back was killing me from constantly turning the wheel (must learn a better technique) and so much for the scenic views! Nice for my passenger though.

[wanderingoregonian]

Ah the Queen Charlotte Drive... On my reccie I rented a car from Picton to drive to Nelson. The first driving on the left for me in 5 years, and it was a stick shift. But there was no traffic and lovely weather, plus I was on the inside edge, and I had a lovely time. Granted, I grew up in the Costal range in rural Oregon, so windy roads were very much part of my daily life.

On a separate note, I asked some locals about the guardrails/sticks on the Rimaka road between Wellington and the Wairarap (a road I've driven probably 6 times this month!). They said that the stick/wire version is done on outside curves to try to slow you down --but not flip you-- if you slide off the road. If you are going slow enough, they thought they were to help 'catch' your car. The metal guardrails were mostly on inside turns. I have no idea if the flimsy looking ones that look more like barbwire would do much to slow you down, but if the logic holds I would much rather fly off and slide down a hill in my car then roll down it topsy turvey.

i could also see that at high speed, and with higher centre of gravity cars, such as suv's, smacking a metal guard rail might flip a car. But I and my friends have no data... this is just want a few locals told me.