[billb]

Well, ok that's not strictly true ;) but bear with me!

Now, we know WHY we would like to leave the UK and WHY we would like to live in NZ. We feel we know about most of the good things regarding living in NZ - but we want to hear from all those who have upped sticks to move there and have now decided, for whatever reason, to return home.

We are especially interested in the views from people of a similar age to us (me 53 (on Anzac Day!), Pam will be 55 in December) as we feel that this age group could have similar circumstances to ourselves - i.e. no children would be coming out with us. We would have the option of keeping a property in the UK (just in case!) or selling that to enhance our lifestyle in NZ. If we kept one of our UK properties, I would need to get a mortgage (no idea how big) but wouldn't make the mistake of going in over our heads.

I have done some calculations regarding likely income against possible outgoings and general cost of living (albeit minus the mortgage costs) and feel confident that this wouldn't be a reason for us to return to the UK.

We want it warts and all! Even the most innocuous and obscure of reasons are welcome, it could be something that we never even thought could be a reason for coming back home.

We are aware of the apparent lack of suitable (central) heating and, in some cases, a similar lack of insulation. We know about the metalled (spelling ?) roads, relatively high interest rates, lack of availability of some foodstuffs etc; but let's have YOUR reasons for deciding that the the Land of the Long White Cloud wasn't / isn't for you. :no

We don't mean to be intrusive :o and we have read the threads about people returning to their homeland (or where they were living before they went to NZ.) But there must be many and varied reasons for those who have made the decision and some of these reasons we may never have even contemplated.

It could be a very expensive mistake to make although, at the end of the day, we know that the decision will be ours and ours alone, but at least we couldn't say, "We didn't think of that!"

Thanks for taking the time with this (and other questions we have posted on this forum) and sorry for the long ramble, but we really do appreciate your input! :nice1

Bill.

[pinkpiggy]

(me 53 (on Anzac Day!), Pam will be 55 in December) OH's birthday is also Anzac Day although he'll only be 38 and mine is in December. :D

Can't give reasons for returning to UK from NZ but when I was younger my parents and me and my 2 brothers lived in Holland. My dad was a lot older than my mum - he was in his mid 50's at the time. We returned home to the UK because he had an accident at work and was unable to work. This made life very difficult and at about the same time, my grandma had a nervous breakdown, this combined with my dad's inability to work, was the reason for our return to the UK. Obviously, I can't elaborate on the financial implications as I was only 11 at the time. ;)

I hope there will be others who can give you other reasons for their return to the UK and more particularly from NZ.

[billb]

Thanks Paula.
That's a sad situation that you've described - and one which could happen to anybody. Being 12,000 miles away would also make it that little bit more difficult to *react* quickly to something like that.

Bill.

[Tentun]

Hi there

I don't have any direct advice based on your circumstances and we are only in our twenties and thirties but I just wanted to add something that I feel is very important.

My husband, myself and our little boy currently live in the UK (having immigrated to the UK in 2000 from South Africa). Both of our parents still live in South Africa as do the rest of our extended families (Aunts, Uncles, Cousins etc). My mum and I speak on the phone all the time about how difficult it is being far away from each other and it's definitely something that made us consider returning to South Africa at one point (although we eventuallly decided not to and are now looking at going to NZ for entirely different reasons - long story, won't go into it now).

Just wanted to say that if you have family still here in the UK don't underestimate the strain of leaving family behind. Both my husband and I worry about our parents (who are now in their fifties), we hate the fact they are not a part of their grandchilds life and my parents especially hate the fact that they are long-distance grandparents who only get to see us once or maybe twice a year. We wonder what will happen as our parents approach old age and what we would do should one parent die leaving the other parent on their own thousands of miles away from us. We also worry what will happen when our parents go onto pension and can no longer afford the expensive flights out to see us and the grandchildren. We are a single income family struggling to survive with a child and various other committments and we can no longer travel to see them as regularly as we could so we see each other less and less.

We are happy in our lives and have learnt to cope without the help and support of our family and relatives but it can sometimes be very lonely on our own at Christmas time, Easter time, birthdays, occassions etc.

Don't want to paint a picture of doom and gloom but all I'm saying is make sure that if you have family in the UK and you are close to them that you have enough money to visit them often or for them to visit you often. Otherwise, make sure you are prepared for the long-distance thing!

Good luck with what you decide.
Kerry

[lockstock]

Hi Bill

We've just submitted our EOI and we, too, are nearing the cut-off point. If we get accepted we're going on the 'you only live once' principle. The kids haven't quite flown the coop (according to our bank account) but they clearly have their own lives to live now. One is even threatening to join us - now that will cramp our style but it means we will also be more likely to recoup some of the 'loans' of the past few years. We know there'll be things we miss but look at what's on offer. A whole new way of life. We've no doubt there'll be times when we wonder what the hell have done - but balanced against what the hell are we still doing here...no contest.
Have you had the go ahead yet?

[billb]

Excellent post Kerry, many thanks.

....We are happy in our lives and have learnt to cope without the help and support of our family and relatives but it can sometimes be very lonely on our own at Christmas time, Easter time, birthdays, occassions etc....

Yes, I think those would be the most difficult times:wah

As regards family / parents etc; my mum and dad split up many years ago and dad died a long time back. I was never happy at home and left when I was 20 and got married (ex- marriage.) Never had any contact with with mum and only very occasionally with dad afterwards. Have a brother and sister still in the UK and of course my sister in Auckland and only her and I are very close now. So for me, at least, family is not an issue.

However, that's not the case with Pam (OH). She is, and always has been, very close to her family. Her father passed away about 7 years ago but her mum is still going strong at 87! She also still has a sister here that lives opposite her mum and another 2 sisters, one in Wales and one in Danbury (Essex), along with the family *extensions*! So the loss of regular contact, for Pam at least, would be much more of a concern.

I think for those with strong family ties, it could present a problem - not unsurmountable, but a very difficult one to overcome.

Bill.

[zardell]

We have recently been told by our family back in the UK that my Father-in-Law (who is nearing 80) is terminally ill.

Now, deciding when or indeed whether or not to return is obviously a very personal thing to my hubby and not one I am prepared to discuss on open forum, however I am only using this as an example of the hard decisions that have to be made when you live over 12,000 miles from your family.

If you are financially viable (and I'm thinking of you considering taking out an NZ mortgage) and you can financially afford to leave your life in NZ on hold for a while in order to go back to the commitments still in the UK then it makes decision a lot easier.

At the end of the day, a person can happily live anywhere if they have no financial worries..........

Just my thoughts at this time, that's all.

Julie

xx

[Angelonthemove]

Hi hope this helps

We are of similiar age 46/50 and no children in NZ. Probably now of a financial breakthrough after initial set up (costly) around $2000 excess a month after all bills and food. We have yet to get PR and because of this still in rented. We too have left our house behind and rented it out.

So are we happy? - we are not unhappy but neither of us feel this is long term. Why we do not know.

OH has always wanted to live here. He is previously from OZ then 20 years working around Europe. We spent the last 3 years in Cyprus (left because we could not make a living), 3 trips here previously. We have spend 2 years planing this and dreaming of a new lifestyle, building a house with land around us.

So why do neither of us see this as long term?

My reason is I am too far away from my 19 daughter in the UK. But I lived third of the distance in Cyprus but that did not seem to matter as much. Its not the distance it the price of airfares from here. Plus the time difference sometimes makes phoning difficult. Plus f you go all that way you need more than 10 days to get over the trip. Then there is extra cost involved.

We do not have the parent problem either way one of us is far away from our parents in UK & OZ. Neither of us are family people but we do call parents once a week.

I do not feel at home or relaxed here, where as in Cyprus I felt I had arrived home and loved every minute of it.

The weather has not been as good as expected. To me if feel just like the UK but without the politics and criminals. More sunshine all would say even on winter days.

Both in jobs for the money not because we like them, hate every Monday morning, live for Friday (sadly no change from UK). Change your job you say, took me 3 months to get the last one as I am forever being told over experienced, or under. Trust me I am still looking everyday for a new one.

Immigration has been a painful process and had we know we would have done it before we came, but we would not have had the points without jobs.

Positives:
The supermarkets are more than enought for anyone and it makes you cook properly with fresh ingredients.

When the sun it out its beautiful here and everyone has a view to die for from their house. You can drive a little while and feel like you have escaped the city.

Shopping in town is a delight with fewer people in the shops.

They speak the same language, although sometimes you do not get the accent.

Restaurants it's hard to find a bad meal and the prices are generally lower.

You still get great cultural activites and events here.

So in the end we are living day to day and will decide when we feel the time is right to stay or move on. But for now we enjoy what there is here and plan as if we are staying. We are still going to buy/build a house. I feel this may help my not feeling at home, tohers on the forum have agreed.

I woud never regret coming here and trying it out. No one is the same and you cannot tell from reading the forum if its right for you. Its whether you have the 'live for today attitude' to go for it and see if it fits your expectations.

I wish you all the best in your decision.

[zardell]

I woud never regret coming here and trying it out. No one is the same and you cannot tell from reading the forum if its right for you. Its whether you have the 'live for today attitude' to go for it and see if it fits your expectations.

I wish you all the best in your decision.


Well said....

Julie

xx

[billb]

Hi lockstock, thanks for the input.

We've no doubt there'll be times when we wonder what the hell have done - but balanced against what the hell are we still doing here...no contest.
Have you had the go ahead yet?

Well, that's is how I view it too.
"Have you had the go ahead"? From NZIS? Or family? ;) We would come over on a WV and I would hope to find a job whilst there.

Bill.

[billb]

We have recently been told by our family back in the UK that my Father-in-Law (who is nearing 80) is terminally ill.

Now, deciding when or indeed whether or not to return is obviously a very personal thing to my hubby and not one I am prepared to discuss on open forum, however I am only using this as an example of the hard decisions that have to be made when you live over 12,000 miles from your family.

If you are financially viable (and I'm thinking of you considering taking out an NZ mortgage) and you can financially afford to leave your life in NZ on hold for a while in order to go back to the commitments still in the UK then it makes decision a lot easier.

At the end of the day, a person can happily live anywhere if they have no financial worries..........

Just my thoughts at this time, that's all.

Julie

xx

That is very sad news Julie and it must be a very difficult time for you and your family, especially your hubby. Our thoughts are with you.
The distance, geographically, is a big problem at a time like this but I suppose we all have to meet it head on and do what's best for all those involved.

We would certainly try to build in to our finances the possibility of return trips to the UK once a year. Yes, we would have a mortgage, but one that we could sucessfully manage. We would hope that we could keep Pam's property here and rent that out - at the worst, if it didn't work out in NZ, at least we would have somewhere to come back to, without having to worry too much about the house prices increasing. If we sold up everything, it would give us a fantastic lifestyle in NZ, but if we decided it wasn't for us after a few years, we wouldn't be able to get anything near as good as we've got now and we'd end up in a worse position than we were before we left.

I only (slightly) disagree with your final comment - "....a person can happily live anywhere if they have no financial worries.........."
I don't think that having no financial worries means that you can happily live anywhere - but it does is enable you happily move away ;)

Bill.

[billb]

Hi angel, many thanks for the post.

Hi hope this helps......

.......So are we happy? - we are not unhappy but neither of us feel this is long term. Why we do not know......

....So why do neither of us see this as long term?

My reason is I am too far away from my 19 daughter in the UK.... Well, I don't have that issue, but Pam has two sons here plus her mum and sisters, so it would be more of a pull for her.

...Both in jobs for the money not because we like them,... Well, I think there are probably more people who think that about their jobs than not, although there are obviously those who stay in their job because they love it!

...They speak the same language, although sometimes you do not get the accent...The language thing is, I think, very important. It must be 100 times worse if you're unhappy in a country and you have difficulty understanding the language too

...We are still going to buy/build a house. I feel this may help my not feeling at home, tohers on the forum have agreed....I also think this will help you a lot, good luck with it!

...and you cannot tell from reading the forum if its right for you...Absolutely. But as we already know the good things about living in NZ, we wanted the bad, the downsides, the problems, the quirks etc; warts and all so to speak!

I wish you all the best in your decision.

Well, I'm sure (hope!) there's more to come from others about this! It's given us a few more things to think about - thank you all so far.

Bill.

[zardell]

I only (slightly) disagree with your final comment - "....a person can happily live anywhere if they have no financial worries.........."
I don't think that having no financial worries means that you can happily live anywhere - but it does is enable you happily move away ;)

Bill.




Yes Bill, you're right and maybe I should have explained my reasoning by typing what I was thinking.

What I really meant to say was that if a person who has emigrated has few financial worries, then the financial burdens associated with the unexpected turns and events in their lives will be cushioned, thereby giving more manoeuvrability to their choices and decisions.

No, money doesn't make you happy, but it makes being so far away from ones homeland and family a bit easier to manage.

Julie

xx

[billb]

What I really meant to say was that if a person who has emigrated has few financial worries, then the financial burdens associated with the unexpected turns and events in their lives will be cushioned, thereby giving more manoeuvrability to their choices and decisions.

No, money doesn't make you happy, but it makes being so far away from ones homeland and family a bit easier to manage.

Julie

xx

Aint that the truth?!
Lol, I knew full well what you meant Julie, hence the ;)
In fact, to a certain extent, you're absolutely right - it would enable one to *get away* from whatever was bugging or troubling them for a time, instead of being stuck somewhere without having the wherewithal to do anything about it, making one even more unhappy.

Bill.

[ruthyroo]

Reasons to stay...

Fantastic scenery, empty country, big mountains, blue lakes, golden beaches, intriguing bush and all the things you can do in them - camping, tramping, kayaking, cycling, hunting, etc etc.
Fresh fruit and veg, locally produced. Excellent meat and fish. Vineyards, and access to them. Excellent wine. (i'm scared to go back to French Vin de Pays after 3 years drinking so much good vino here!)
Easy to be comfortably poor here - no one has very much, so living on little can come easily (just don't compare your life with anyone back home!).
Generally friendly people, generous and chilled out.
Peace and quiet.
Hippy vibe, life is for living and enjoying in the moment. The beach, The bach and the BBQ. No worries.

Reasons not to stay...

Cold damp, draughty houses. Expensive heating.
Noisy cars / exhausts / dreadful driving / petrolhead culture.
Anti-intellectual anything, dreadful newspapers / radio talkback / media. Actively anti-establishment yet totally conservative. Racist, small minded island mentality. Tall poppy syndrome.
No history. No romance. Dreadful architecture and dire cities.
Too far from friends and family for us.
Processed food, 'beef flavoured' sausages (what is that about?), lack of choice. Rubbish takeways / chinese / indian / thai.
Not clean or green. With the exception of Fiordland / Westland the countryside is either farming, commercial forestry or overrun with exotic pest species. Way behind the times as far as sustainable living goes - the low population density is the only thing that saves NZ being a bit of a tip.
Low motivation to do anything / change anything. She'll be right mate attitude in driving, working, education / schools (many people would also see this as a positive though).
Too far away from anywhere.

That's just our thought. I don't think we're here forever, family and friends and the diversity / food / wine / weather / history and culture of Europe are calling us home. But there are lots of things we will really really miss about NZ. It's got under my skin - more than I thought it would.

[zardell]

[quote=ruthyroo;124852]

Cold damp, draughty houses. Expensive heating.

Processed food, 'beef flavoured' sausages (what is that about?), lack of choice. Rubbish takeways / chinese / indian / thai.

Low motivation to do anything / change anything. quote]




Please read as written *with tongue very much in cheek*


So there you go Bill....

Come on - come and join us in our sheds (sorry, houses) and share some of our flavourless sausages.

You'll have very low motivation for changing anything either, cos the NZ wine is just tooooo yummy.

It's just as well that the Take Away Chinese/Indian/Thai places are terrible 'cos they don't deliver anyway and you wont want to get 'done' for drinking and driving now, will you !!!

:laugh :laugh :laugh

And would we want anything to change......well if it changed it wouldn't be the NZ that we all know and love would it......?

:D

Julie

xx

[ruthyroo]

Well said Julie - NZ has to be taken on its merits (and there are plenty of them), or not at all! I have a horrible feeling I am going to miss NZ a lot more than I think I will...

[billb]

Hi ruthyroo :)

Reasons to stay...

Yup, pretty much our thoughts (even though we were only there for 3 weeks lol!)


Reasons not to stay...

1/Cold damp, draughty houses. Expensive heating.
2/Noisy cars / exhausts / dreadful driving / petrolhead culture.
3/Anti-intellectual anything, dreadful newspapers / radio talkback / media.
4/Actively anti-establishment yet totally conservative. Racist, small minded island mentality. Tall poppy syndrome.
5/No history. No romance. Dreadful architecture and dire cities.
6/Too far from friends and family for us.
7/Processed food, 'beef flavoured' sausages (what is that about?), lack of choice. Rubbish takeways / chinese / indian / thai.
8/Not clean or green. With the exception of Fiordland / Westland the countryside is either farming, commercial forestry or overrun with exotic pest species. Way behind the times as far as sustainable living goes - the low population density is the only thing that saves NZ being a bit of a tip.
9/Low motivation to do anything / change anything. She'll be right mate attitude in driving, working, education / schools (many people would also see this as a positive though).
10/Too far away from anywhere.

1/ Have read a lot about this and have budgeted for central heating and insulation!
4/ Aware of the racial issues in NZ, especially against Asians (Chinese)
6/ A biggy for most people I would imagine.
7/ "Beef flavoured sausages" ??? indeed, lol! We have some great take aways here and also some dire ones!
8/ That's :( :(
9/ I wonder why.
10/ Could be an ideal reason to stay (for some :laugh )

That's just our thought. I don't think we're here forever, family and friends and the diversity / food / wine / weather / history and culture of Europe are calling us home. But there are lots of things we will really really miss about NZ. It's got under my skin - more than I thought it would.

Great post ruthyroo, but I must say I'm very surprised by your final comment. I'm sure I remember seeing your posts when we originally joined the forum (2003) and I think I remember you were really looking forward to it (might have that totally wrong, the grey matter isn't what it was!)
Sorry that it hasn't worked out for you - when do you plan on returning?

Bill.

[billb]

Please read as written *with tongue very much in cheek*

So there you go Bill....

Come on - come and join us in our sheds (sorry, houses) and share some of our flavourless sausages.

You'll have very low motivation for changing anything either, cos the NZ wine is just tooooo yummy.

It's just as well that the Take Away Chinese/Indian/Thai places are terrible 'cos they don't deliver anyway and you wont want to get 'done' for drinking and driving now, will you !!!

:laugh

And would we want anything to change......well if it changed it wouldn't be the NZ that we all know and love would it......?

:D

Julie

xx

Great, and I'd already replied to ruthyroo!:o

Well, it doesn't look like like it's dulled your humour :laugh

Like I said, I know why I want to live in NZ but I'd like to hear from those (especially from folks our age with no kids in tow) why it wasn't for them - it could be something that we'd never even dreamed of being a reason.

This forum is great but could be better on providing a more balanced view. Having said that, I suppose it's only to be expected that the general tone on the forum is going to be positive, and I'm sure if I went back over to the *other* forum (spit!) I'll see many more threads (along with the vile language) about the downsides!
However, I was surprised to see a thread on this forum about the downside of NZ locked (mind you, it had become somewhat personal between a few posters on it!)

Bill.

[veronica]

haven't returned from NZ, still here, same age bracket as you guys though. but did many years ago return from OZ. to UK. Not because of the country but because of people and family back home. Life is pretty much what you make of it and the only way to find stuff out is to try it.
Yes there are things that grate about NZ but there is lots of good. there are things that grate about the UK too and good there. its all about what you want out of life. think you just have to go for the suck it and see attitude.

[zardell]

Like I said, I know why I want to live in NZ but I'd like to hear from those (especially from folks our age with no kids in tow) why it wasn't for them - it could be something that we'd never even dreamed of being a reason.
Bill.


Yes and to be honest, I can't remember anyone of our age that has gone back - maybe I'm wrong.

Well, we'll be staying in NZ for a while I'm sure of that - shall I put the kettle on for you Bill ??

Julie

xx

[billb]

Hi Veronica:)

...think you just have to go for the suck it and see attitude.

Yes, you're probably right, but I just like to cover as many bases as possible! ;) :laugh

Bill.

[billb]

Yes and to be honest, I can't remember anyone of our age that has gone back - maybe I'm wrong.

Really?!!

Well, we'll be staying in NZ for a while I'm sure of that - shall I put the kettle on for you Bill ??

Julie

xx

Lol :laugh :laugh
I think it might just have burned out a tad by the time we arrive!!
But when we do get ther, I'll have a tea with two please and Pam will have a coffee thanks!:laugh

Bill.

[ruthyroo]

hey bill, cheers for taking the time to read my stream of consciousness! We haven't actually decided to leave yet, but I *think* we won't make old bones here.

You talk about the unexpected reasons for not wanting to stay... Well what really surprised me was discovering just how much of a townie / city person I am and how much I miss the architecture, history, romance, culture etc of Europe - thousands and thousands of years of people thinking and building and fighting and eating and drinking and writing and painting and knocking it all down and starting again. But then maybe I am guilty of reverse-rose-tinting from here! And I have no doubt if we had kids then NZ might just seem closer to paradise than it does for a couple of DINKY*s.

*Double Income No Kids Yet

[lockstock]

We may try that if our PR doesn't fall into place. We've decided we're going regardless. I thought you had to have a firm job offer for a WV but I may be wrong. We may try the Visitors Visa route. What seemed like such a simple idea has become so very complicated but I'm sure it will all turn out well in the end. Good luck with your decision.

[lockstock]

oops - jumped a couple of pages there! It's good to hear other people's views. According to my OH there's a darn good cricket team there so what more could anyone want?:roll

[billb]

hey bill, cheers for taking the time to read my stream of consciousness! We haven't actually decided to leave yet, but I *think* we won't make old bones here...

...what really surprised me was discovering just how much of a townie / city person I am and how much I miss the architecture, history, romance, culture etc of Europe - thousands and thousands of years of people thinking and building and fighting and eating and drinking and writing and painting and knocking it all down and starting again... Sounds like some of the building sites I work on!...But then maybe I am guilty of reverse-rose-tinting from here! And I have no doubt if we had kids then NZ might just seem closer to paradise than it does for a couple of DINKY*s.

*Double Income No Kids Yet

Always grateful to read *anything* about NZ, "stream of conciousness" or otherwise!

Bill.

[billb]

...I thought you had to have a firm job offer for a WV but I may be wrong. We may try the Visitors Visa route. What seemed like such a simple idea has become so very complicated but I'm sure it will all turn out well in the end. Good luck with your decision.

Yes, that's what I thought too, although I'm sure there are conflicting views on this! And yes, it *does* seem complicated (but then again, I'm the original numpty!) all the different visas - and as sure as eggs are eggs (BTW, happy Easter everyone!) I'll end up choosing the wrong one :uhoh

...According to my OH there's a darn good cricket team there so what more could anyone want?

Now that *is* good news! I still turn out for Epping Town after 26 years and I'd certainly miss my cricket if I couldn't find a team to play for. There must be some ex-pat teams over there.

Bill.

[jaycee]

Bill, I wrote in my reply to your thread in 'Introductions' that I thought coming over when you're a bit older means you have more to leave behind. The things I was thinking of were a larger family (grandchildren for example) and more 'stuff'. Chances are you will have climbed further up the career and property ladders and become used to the benefits those bring, compared with people in their twenties. I don't just mean material things, but the feeling that you know the lie of the land, if that makes any sense? Some of that gets taken away when you emigrate; once in a different culture, you're back to being a beginner. Or maybe that's just me and my hang-ups ;)

On the other hand, (and I realise this sounds corny) it's also likely that, by now, you know yourself and what's important to you in life. And if not, emigrating will probably teach you something :)

[billb]

Bill, I wrote in my reply to your thread in 'Introductions' that I thought coming over when you're a bit older means you have more to leave behind. The things I was thinking of were a larger family (grandchildren for example) and more 'stuff'.

Well, that's probably true for *most* people, although not for me. My family were never close and there were issues that I prefer not to put on a public forum. Suffice to say that I couldn't wait to leave home and get married. Well, that lasted 25 years, but came to an end in '99 (my choice.) My children weren't babies (daughter was 22 at the time and my son was 18) when I left, but ever since, they want nothing to do with me. That is their right and their choice. I still continue (and will continue) to send cards on their birthdays and at Christmas time. My two stepsons are early 30's and late 20's and although one has twin daughters and a son, he has parted from their mother.

Chances are you will have climbed further up the career and property ladders and become used to the benefits those bring, compared with people in their twenties. I don't just mean material things, but the feeling that you know the lie of the land, if that makes any sense? Some of that gets taken away when you emigrate; once in a different culture, you're back to being a beginner. Or maybe that's just me and my hang-ups ;)

This is only the 2nd property I've bought as, when I was previously married, we'd always been in rented accommodation - either housing trust or housing association. So didn't get my first mortgage until 2001! As regards career, I'm happy doing what I do, managing construction sites (mainly commercial fit-out and refurb) after spending 24 years as a carpenter. Not sure that I'd feel like a beginner again in a new country - when we were there in 2003 it felt like I'd known the place all my life, crazy!!!

On the other hand, (and I realise this sounds corny) it's also likely that, by now, you know yourself and what's important to you in life. And if not, emigrating will probably teach you something :)

No, not corny at all, but I'm not sure I *know* myself, just that I *think* I know what's important to me.
I reckon that if we come over on the 3 month tour and I managed to land a job, I will prepare myself to accept that it will be far more of a wrench for Pam than for me (my sister is in Auckland after all) and that if Pam wanted to come back, I'd support that decision 100% - I'd rather have Pam with me, wherever that might be. She's been the best thing to happen to me for a long time! (Now *that* might be corny to some, but that's how I feel.)

Bill.

[mclarity]

Hi there
IMy husband, myself and our little boy currently live in the UK (having immigrated to the UK in 2000 from South Africa). Both of our parents still live in South Africa as do the rest of our extended families (Aunts, Uncles, Cousins etc). My mum and I speak on the phone all the time about how difficult it is being far away from each other and it's definitely something that made us consider returning to South Africa at one point (although we eventuallly decided not to and are now looking at going to NZ for entirely different reasons - long story, won't go into it now).
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Don't want to paint a picture of doom and gloom but all I'm saying is make sure that if you have family in the UK and you are close to them that you have enough money to visit them often or for them to visit you often. Otherwise, make sure you are prepared for the long-distance thing!


This all sounds very familiar. We also emigrated from South Africa to Europe (albeit the Netherlands) some eight years ago. We made the big decision to try New Zealand as we were not very happy in NL generally. We received PR, I got a good job and so we went and lived in NZ for eight months last year. We have now returned to the Netherlands. A return step we never thought we would make(!) Like you, we also thought of returning to SA recently and I was even offered a very good job back in Johannesburg. Based on the level of violent crime and all its effects on ones safety and lifestyle we did not go for it.

As South Africans used to living in Europe and considering a move to New Zealand I would consider the following:

If you are going to live in NZ with a full mortgage, no big savings pot and a combined annual salary under NZD 80,000 then semi-regular trips back to SA will be very difficult to achieve. The travel costs are double than from Europe and you generally earn less. The cost of living is also quite high.

In Europe, we became quite used to being able to keep the SA connection going by visiting family and friends every second or third year. Ok, still not as often as we would like but far more than what seemed possible in NZ. Even if we didn’t visit SA, just knowing that we could, if need be, was a great psychological advantage. Standing on that beautiful Wellington waterfront was great but there is a feeling of isolation there that is difficult to describe. We also realised that when we were living in Europe we took Europe's centrality and travel prospects very much for granted.

NZ is a very beautiful place and we were very sad to leave. My day to day life in NZ was easier and more pleasant generally. Nothing is cut and dry. Of course I do not know your personal circumstances and your reason for thinking about NZ. I am sure that if you already have some family and friends in NZ then the above points would weigh less. Or if you have a pot of savings to take and you can be financially very strong then the above points are also mute. Or if you have no desire to keep a physical SA connection for whatever reason (or weigh it’s importance less) and want to move to New Zealand for New Zealand’s sake then yes, that is very different.

I guess we needed the move to reassess our position in Europe. I miss the NZ environment and the friends we made but it is good to know that from here friends abroad (UK, Aus. and the States) and South Africa itself remain accessible and that travel remains a real enticing possibility.

Regards.