[slugger]

Well now that everybody else is outing themselves I guess I should too.

My OH and I are originally from Ireland; we have decided to leave our adopted home of 5 years (Chicago) and move to NZ. I'm currently completing a graduate degree in an engineering discipline. OH teaches violin full time.

Like everybody else we have many concerns about moving, particularly financial. But being rich is over rated, or so I have been told! Having been away from family and friends for over five years we probably won't suffer from homesickness.

My dilema is that I've been offered an assistant professor position at one of the best universities in the US, with a (US$) six figure salary. Moving to NZ will mean accepting a much lower salary, perhaps around NZ$65k, should I get a lectureship (there aren't too many on offer in such a small country). On the flip side, I've heard there isn't the same 'publish or perish' mentality in NZ academia, there is no tenure process(?) and that there is more emphasis on teaching (less on research). And new lecturers actually get vacations, which is an alien concept in the US.

We don't have much saved but universities tend to pay for everything (visas, medicals, moving, flights) when they hire overseas applicants.

I have a coupla questions....

Unfortunately if we move to NZ my OH will have to work. Does anybody know about violin instructors, i.e. what kind of hourly rate they can command. In the US it is about $60 an hour. Guessing it's alot less in NZ.

Does anybody have any experience working in academia in the UK or US which they can compare to NZ? My current research advisor (who is famous in our field) told me I was making a mistake, that I was going to go to NZ to retire before my academic career even got started. As you can tell he's a bit US-centric.

Thanks a lot. This site is a really great source of information.

:exit

[Diva]

My dilemma is that I've been offered an assistant professor position at one of the best universities in the US, with a (US$) six figure salary. Moving to NZ will mean accepting a much lower salary, perhaps around NZ$65k, should I get a lectureship (there aren't too many on offer in such a small country). On the flip side, I've heard there isn't the same 'publish or perish' mentality in NZ academia, there is no tenure process(?) and that there is more emphasis on teaching (less on research). And new lecturers actually get vacations, which is an alien concept in the US.

You haven't said why you want to leave America and come out here. It seems a bit odd that you have been offered a very good job and are willing to turn it down so that your OH can busk outside Auckland Railway Station!

Seriously though, I'd say your advisor was right. You might want to consider establishing your career and credentials in the US first before 'retiring' to NZ.

I come from an 'academic' background (of sorts) and when I announced that I was going to live in NZ my co-workers were unanimous that I was committing career suicide and that I would be bored to death in a matter of months...but what do they know?

Unless there is a pressing need to leave the USA I'd think it might be a good idea to try the assistant professorship first. If you don't like it, well, New Zealand will still be here.

[suzer]

Just a quick welcome from another Chicagoan who has spent plenty of time in Ireland (many visits as well as lived there for 4 months).

Suzer

[slugger]

Mmmn, reasons for leaving the US.

Well there are the *cultural* reasons. It still amazes me how different the US is to Ireland. We've had a hard time fitting in here (US). People are often confrontational and aggressive (obviously not everyone) which surpised me.

My main concerns relate to the US attitude to working. I am only familiar with academia where it is considered normal to work six days a week, about 60 hours a week, with two weeks vacation per year. A lot of people don't seem to take the vacation time they are allowed for fear of being branded lazy. I never experienced this in Ireland, although I've heard it's beginning to move in that direction.

Personally I'd rather make less and get more time off to spend with my OH.

There are also practical reasons for leaving. My OH's employment authorization runs out when I graduate and cannot be renewed until I get a green card. This will take 3-5 years; what will my OH do during that period; not even allowed to do volunteer work! Probably go crazy with boredom! Particulary if I'm putting in 60-70 hour weeks.

On the other hand, if we go to NZ my OH will at least have the option to work.

In terms of my career suicide (!), I have to say I'm not too worried. I prefer teaching to research so moving to NZ will probably be a bonus in that respect. I'm not super ambitious; I enjoy what I do but it doesn't control my life. Friends who recently started as assistant profs (in the US) are basically slaves to the job. They are working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day until they get tenure, which as you may know takes up to 7 years. Most of their time is spent on non-teaching and non-research activities (writing funding proposals). It has already been communicated to me (by the Uni which made me an offer) that this is what is expected of assistant profs!

Having said all that, I don't want to bad mouth the US; anti-americanism is one one my pet hates. It's a wonderful country. It's just not for us.

[KerryS]

My dilema is that I've been offered an assistant professor position at one of the best universities in the US, with a (US$) six figure salary. Moving to NZ will mean accepting a much lower salary, perhaps around NZ$65k, should I get a lectureship (there aren't too many on offer in such a small country). On the flip side, I've heard there isn't the same 'publish or perish' mentality in NZ academia, there is no tenure process(?) and that there is more emphasis on teaching (less on research). And new lecturers actually get vacations, which is an alien concept in the US.

Does anybody have any experience working in academia in the UK or US which they can compare to NZ? My current research advisor (who is famous in our field) told me I was making a mistake, that I was going to go to NZ to retire before my academic career even got started. As you can tell he's a bit US-centric.



I can't offer any advice about your husband's situation, I know nothing about music teaching I'm afraid. But, I have experience in both the UK and US as an academic, and a year in Australia before I came to NZ. I was offered my job here by a professor I met at a conference in Australia where I presented and he liked me, so it was all a bit flukey...

But, I'm going to agree with your current research advisor. Coming to NZ as an academic was a mistake for me. I have now left academe as I just wasn't focused and didn't get the push from the Uni that I needed to succeed. I spent a year at Stanford and it was the best year in my career - I was so intent on my study that I felt as though I was really achieving something. Once in Australia, and then in NZ, I floundered and lost my way. Maybe lack of guidance from my Prof, lack of motivation on my behalf, lack of interest in the area I was working in (not my main research area), I could go on...

I enjoyed it for a year - the lack of worry about tenure, the lack of pressure to publish, it was all very easy. But, I wasn't achieving anything, and I knew that if I wanted to be taken seriously elsewhere in my field I would have a hard job convincing someone that I was a committed academic. An ass pro position is like gold dust here. I was 4 years post doc and struggling to get my own lectureship, I took a job as a research fellow - and the money is atrocious.

But, I was in love with NZ (and a Kiwi boy by then, but that's something else entirely!), and I wanted to stay here. My quality of life was fantastic and I was enjoying myself.
So, I dropped out of academia and started to work in IT. A huge leap and big learning curve, but 3 years on I'm now established in what I do and am still loving NZ (and the Kiwi)...

So, I would say consider it very carefully - if you want to make your life in academe, I would think about delaying for a few years. Take the ass pro and make a name for yourself. Come to NZ when you want to slow down a little... It was too early for me and I became disillusioned. Although, saying that, of all my friends, only 1 has remained in academe in the UK as they were also disillusioned - the lack of security around jobs, the constant re-application for a role, the pressure to publish constantly has meant that many of them have been tempted out into industry instead. Who's to say that it was NZ academia to blame and not just me at the end of the day?

Sorry, that was incredibly waffley and rather long, but I hope it helps you a little.

[Diva]

Again, as is so often the case, it's hard to read the tea-leaves without knowing a lot more about the specific situation.

If you are in your early 20's I'd say you should grit your teeth, grind out the next 7 years and then come over as a 'real' prof and enjoy the 'retirement'.

The harsh truth about being an academic is that, for better or worse, the American universities are the Gold Standard. You can move anywhere in the world from an American college but I'm not sure how much leverage a position in NZ will give you. But as KerryS said, you might want to think about a non-academic career in NZ, the money will almost certainly be a lot better.....

[Bruckner]

Just wanted to say welcome to the forum Slugger.

Emily

[Howie]

I'm familiar with the academic stresses in North America and yes the academic life is quite different here. I'm studying for a post-graduate degree in engineering and although my professors are busy, they have lives outside of the university too. I'm not interested in staying in academia, but I feel like I'm getting a pretty good education. The only negatives I've heard is that some have found the undergraduate students not as keen here which can be frustrating as a lecturer. The other problem is that there are so many engineering jobs right now that all of the undergrads are getting good jobs straight after school and not many are staying around to do post graduate degrees, so finding good grad students can also be difficult. There are a few that do Masters degrees, but the universities graduate very few PhD's (well, in Civil Engineering anyways).
Have you looked into the job situation in NZ? Are there openings in your field? There aren't too many universities here, so the opportunities are lot more limited than in the US.
Good luck with your decision. If you're not interested in the fast track to fame and fortune and really just want to focus on lecturing anyways, I think you would quite enjoy working at a NZ uni.

[slugger]

Hi Howie
Thanks for the reply. I think you hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph; fame and fortune aren't really my goals. I like to teach, and don't mind research too much. There is a certain stigma attached to having this attitude in the US; perhaps it's just where I am currently at....

There are a few openings coming up in my area. Actually, I applied for three recently. If I get an offer I'll go to NZ, if not I'll keep plodding away here and try again in future...no worries.

I was hoping NZ academic jobs are similar to those in Ireland. I have friends working as lecturers in Ireland; it seems way more laid back than the US.

It sounds like you are happy enough with the education system, which gives me hope. As for undergrads, well I guess when the education is free you take it for granted.

Do you mind if I ask a couple of questions?

Is it tricky to land a non-academic job in NZ with a PhD or do they prefer work experience?

If I were to stay here (US) and look for a non-academic job it'd probably be in engineering consulting. Do consultancy firms in NZ employ PhDs straight out of college?

Anyhoo, good luck in your studies, I'm glad to see you haven't been seduced by the dark side that is academia!

[slugger]

Another quickie for anyone who may be in the engineering field.

What's a ballpark starting salary for a 'PhD degreed' engineer (non-IT) in the Auckland area?

I realize thats a very vague question. Just trying to compare it to a starting lecturer's salary (~65k).

Cheers!

[Howie]

I work in engineering consulting in Auckland. Masters degrees are valued, PhD's probably not unless the research work gave you some really good experience. What type of eng job would you be looking for? The discipline can really affect the salary. Starting out you're probably looking at less than a lecturer, but the max salary (after years of experience) could be higher.
]
PM me if you[d like more info about consulting industry in NZ.