[Tia Maria]

Before coming to NZ I remember reading on forums how you'd struggle if you led a consumeristic lifestyle.

To me this meant, buying designer clothes, holiday to Florida every year, buying the latest car, buying latest gadgets and doing your weekly shop in Marks & Spencer.

As none of this applied to me I wasn't too worried.

However, it is now the case of, rarely buying clothes at all, only cheap holidays in NZ, restricting use of the car, saving up to buy a ladder so we can clean out the gutters and finding the cheapest possible food in the local shops or not buying at all.

I know the first definition would be described as consumeristic but I'm not sure the second one is.

What is everyone else's defintion of a consumeristic lifestyle? Is it having SKY or flying abroad? Or is it buying the latest pair of trainers and having 2 cars?

And for those of you who have arrived in NZ, has your definition changed? Or do you think people struggle here just trying to live an 'average' lifestyle? :confused:

Cheers

Tia

[Moorf]

Good question!

For me, consumerism is purchasing items based on an associated status symbol or branding - something that you don't necessarily need but that would make you "happier" to own.

I think many who emigrate want to ensure a financially secure environment and most appear to realise that that means not having such extravagances or, even if you could afford them, that they aren't that important in the scheme of things.

Here in NZ a nice meal out is almost extravagant, in the UK we didn't think twice, it was a good excuse not to cook.

In the UK the car we had was important, here we have what is practical.

In the UK I could be choosey what clothes I wore, what sneakers I bought - here I find myself in Warehouse saying "that'll make do"....

But perhaps, as I personally don't equate consumerism and "stuff" or brands with happiness (hmm perhaps with the exception of SHOES!!) I don't feel I have been too affected by the lack of disposable income here.

Plus, a key commitment to moving here was to steer clear of debts, store cards and generally buying rubbish that we don't really need - it hasn't taken much doing although the low salaries do help keep your spending under control.

So, for me, I think consumerism is buying stuff based on a brand/emotion and not because you need it :yes I think that one emotion of not being able to be a "part" of the consumeristic society can be "deprivation" and once you feel that then your "make do" purchases start to feel miserable. I think many of us coming from the UK and US who are used to spending out on nice stuff could fall foul of that without adequate research.

Did that make sense?!!



Moorf

[kanatakiwi]

When I first came here I was shocked that kids all wanted Dickies jeans which cost over $100 a pair, and it was a north american label that could be purchased for under $30 in Canada. Similarly we noticed kids all wanted Champion, Nike, etc etc at exhorbitant prices, none of which are NZ brands. So I thought that kind of consumerism was daft and something we could easily refuse to support.

Personally I find I am less and less supportive of that kind of consumerism, not just because of the financial factor, but also because it makes no sense; why would kiwis need to wear north american brands to feel "cool"? My first criteria now is for eco-friendly items, locally made or grown, I dont mind paying a bit more for that. But you are right, if its going to be something from overseas, might as well be from China , which is where most of the Warehouse stuff comes from. I was shopping for a baby present today and realized that even the designer boutique stuff being sold is mostly all made in China, so why is it necessary to charge so much for it?

As to things like meals out, the costs here made it nearly impossible to enjoy, especially when what you get is not necessarily anything special. My hairdresser told me that locals are more likely to eat out at a place where you can BYO, this usually means lower prices, but I have yet to test this theory out.
Sorry this turned into a bit of a ramble, I guess what I am trying to say is "If living in NZ is forcing us to have a simpler lifestyle, consume less and share more, then that can only be a good thing!"
G

[zardell]

do you think people struggle here just trying to live an 'average' lifestyle? :confused: Tia



Flak jacket on - here we go............

Yes I do think that people can and do struggle just to be average, especially maybe young people with young families.

Generally speaking, unless you have bought your house outright or maybe only have a small mortgage the cost of renting a comfortable, dry, warm home is very costly when compared to income.

We have always budgeted our finances so that it only takes one of us to repay all the bills should the other be out of work at any time for whatever reason. Now, here in NZ unless you have a decent stash of cash behind you for a house purchase, I personally believe that you will struggle to be 'average' unless both of you work and for some people and for whatever reason, to have both partners out at work is not an acceptable scenario.

I flatly refuse to use the money from our UK house sale to finance our day to day NZ living costs - whats the point in being here (or anywhere else for that matter) if you can't manage on your NZ income and have to rely on your savings to get you through ? Just by selling your home, you have removed yourself from your country of origins property ladder, so the last thing you should have to do is utilise that money and source it as the tool to help you get through. It will soon disappear if you do that and the more you spend, the less there will be for your new house in NZ.

NZ wages can be dire and NZ housing costs are (in some areas) continuing to escalate at an alarming rate.........doesn't quite equate for Mr and Mrs Average does it ?

Personally, I have not come over 12,000 to live on the breadline - I'm too long in the tooth for that and I did the most of my financial struggling in the UK in years gone-by anyway.

Now having said all that - that's only my opinion - yours may well be different.....

Julie

xx

[zardell]

Did that make sense?!!
Moorf




Yep - made perfect sense to me, but having said that, I was never too much of a 'label' person in the UK.

Having a meal out though is still one of the things we do on a regular basis and I have to say, I would be loath to have to give that up.

Julie

xx

[Sam B]

Our biggest downfall is eating out and food in general. We don't like posh cars, don't go in for gadgets or expensive tvs etc, but I'm terrible for eating out on a whim, and I do it just as much here as I did in the UK.

However, there are other areas that I've improved on. I used to spend loads on my kids' clothes and I really can't see myself doing that here, because they just wear jeans/shorts and tops here because they spend their whole lives on play equipment and stuff and they've stopped wanting to wear dresses, skirts etc. In fact they've stopped caring what they wear at all, they just want it to be practical. I probably won't spend as much on my clothes either, because there never seems to be any reason to dress up. I brought over 2 really nice dresses, and I haven't worn them once yet. Even in quite smart restaurants, everyone looks v casual.

I wouldn't be able to buy any clothes or eat out at all if I didn't have an income from rental property in the Uk, as my wages here only cover the rent and other basics.

[stu70]

When I first came here I was shocked that kids all wanted Dickies jeans which cost over $100 a pair, and it was a north american label that could be purchased for under $30 in Canada. Similarly we noticed kids all wanted Champion, Nike, etc etc at exhorbitant prices, none of which are NZ brands. So I thought that kind of consumerism was daft and something we could easily refuse to support.

Personally I find I am less and less supportive of that kind of consumerism, not just because of the financial factor, but also because it makes no sense; why would kiwis need to wear north american brands to feel "cool"? My first criteria now is for eco-friendly items, locally made or grown, I dont mind paying a bit more for that. But you are right, if its going to be something from overseas, might as well be from China , which is where most of the Warehouse stuff comes from. I was shopping for a baby present today and realized that even the designer boutique stuff being sold is mostly all made in China, so why is it necessary to charge so much for it?

As to things like meals out, the costs here made it nearly impossible to enjoy, especially when what you get is not necessarily anything special. My hairdresser told me that locals are more likely to eat out at a place where you can BYO, this usually means lower prices, but I have yet to test this theory out.
Sorry this turned into a bit of a ramble, I guess what I am trying to say is "If living in NZ is forcing us to have a simpler lifestyle, consume less and share more, then that can only be a good thing!"
G

I agree with all the posts here and especially with the position that what you "need" need not be confused with what you would like to have but it won't kill you if you did not go out and get it.

I do not indulge in excesses even though they are readily available and can be had for a very reasonable cash layout here in Canada. What bothers me though is the fact that many of the folks in NZ have to be frugal not by choice but by the realities of lower wages and higher living expenses. That really takes away the option from you to choose doesn't it? And that is my only concern.

[zardell]

What bothers me though is the fact that many of the folks in NZ have to be frugal not by choice but by the realities of lower wages and higher living expenses. That really takes away the option from you to choose doesn't it? And that is my only concern.



Spot on Stu and I believe that others should take your concerns on board.

Financial viability is the key.

Julie

xx

[kanatakiwi]

I also agree with everyone's comments, especially Stu's comment about NZ forcing some people to be frugal not by choice but by economic necessity. I do think that is the reality for many people in NZ, especially younger folks who did not get into the property market when it was more affordable.

Having scaled down on the housing, vehicle, income, social activities, and even food choices, in order to live here in auckland, I think I am more frugal by necessity, but I am also trying to take a philosophical view by accepting that we are doing all right, and there are benefits to living here that (on most days) make it worthwhile.
G

[SarahEDH]

As many others here have said, NZ consumerism for me means that I think about each purchase and have to expend effort in deciding whether it's worth it. Not knowing the brands or the stores has made me spend so much more time evaluating than I ever did back home and often I choose not to buy. Higher cost plus questionable quality of goods (sorry to sound critical) usually adds up to a "no" decision. When I decide against buying, for a value-related reason, sometimes I do feel frustrated or annoyed that it takes more work to find items that are worth the money. It's the convenience of shopping in the U.S. that I miss, rather than high-priced or status goods. Never lived that lifestyle anyway. But being able to buy reasonably-priced, quality items is something I took for granted; never realised how much.

Interesting note from my work environment -- one of my Kiwi coworkers seemed to take offense that I would purchase new kitchen things to use temporarily in Wellington (with the plan to give them away when I leave rather than pack or ship them). These weren't expensive items, just an electric kettle, a few glasses, a wooden cutting board. I just felt better having new things that I knew were clean and they didn't cost much (to me) at Farmer's or the Warehouse. My coworker said "we wouldn't spend good money that way -- we'd go to secondhand shops if we were going to give the stuff away". Oh well. Everybody's different . . .

[jubjub]

I guess I would describe consumerism as the purchase of things you want, and not actually need, like the new plasma 42" to replace your now old looking 32" widescreen (which has nothing wrong with it, and has a few years life left)....

We get the odd windfall of $ now and then, from one source or another, and this is what gets spent on the more luxury items, like a new mobile or update of the pc, but generally it still gets spent on something practical that will get used every day.

In the UK we would have bought the stuff anyway, and put it on the latest 0% interest credit card...

[nickydwuk]

I spent the last three years as a student while my husband supported the family. During that time we realised that the kids did not 'need' the latest xbox game and they soon adapted to having one pair of trainers - the cheapest in the shop. We bought and still do buy a lot of our stuff through mail order catalogues and then only if we need it. Now I have been working for 7 months it has been good to be able to repay our overdraft and treat the kids once in a while. However they have learnt that if they want something they have to save their pocket money for it.

We hope that our relatively frugal lifestyle will make it easier for us to adapt to life in NZ. We hope to be able to buy property without a mortgage which should make life a little easier. Most people eventually learn to live within their means it is just a struggle at first.

[incredible hulse]

Flak jacket on - here we go............

Yes I do think that people can and do struggle just to be average, especially maybe young people with young families.

Generally speaking, unless you have bought your house outright or maybe only have a small mortgage the cost of renting a comfortable, dry, warm home is very costly when compared to income.

We have always budgeted our finances so that it only takes one of us to repay all the bills should the other be out of work at any time for whatever reason. Now, here in NZ unless you have a decent stash of cash behind you for a house purchase, I personally believe that you will struggle to be 'average' unless both of you work and for some people and for whatever reason, to have both partners out at work is not an acceptable scenario.

I flatly refuse to use the money from our UK house sale to finance our day to day NZ living costs - whats the point in being here (or anywhere else for that matter) if you can't manage on your NZ income and have to rely on your savings to get you through ? Just by selling your home, you have removed yourself from your country of origins property ladder, so the last thing you should have to do is utilise that money and source it as the tool to help you get through. It will soon disappear if you do that and the more you spend, the less there will be for your new house in NZ.

NZ wages can be dire and NZ housing costs are (in some areas) continuing to escalate at an alarming rate.........doesn't quite equate for Mr and Mrs Average does it ?

Personally, I have not come over 12,000 to live on the breadline - I'm too long in the tooth for that and I did the most of my financial struggling in the UK in years gone-by anyway.

Now having said all that - that's only my opinion - yours may well be different.....

Julie

xx

Just about sums it up perfectly for me Julie. I think the "average" lifestyle for kiwis/in NZ is lower mainly due to necessity rather than choice - the fact being this is an expensive place to live basically even before thinking about luxuries. I know we got lucky in a lot of ways as we had the benefit of a good exchange rate behind us, but if I had been born here I would certainly be off on a 10 year OE to bring back the readies to buy a family home

[willsken]

As many others here have said, NZ consumerism for me means that I think about each purchase and have to expend effort in deciding whether it's worth it. Not knowing the brands or the stores has made me spend so much more time evaluating than I ever did back home and often I choose not to buy. Higher cost plus questionable quality of goods (sorry to sound critical) usually adds up to a "no" decision. When I decide against buying, for a value-related reason, sometimes I do feel frustrated or annoyed that it takes more work to find items that are worth the money. It's the convenience of shopping in the U.S. that I miss, rather than high-priced or status goods. Never lived that lifestyle anyway. But being able to buy reasonably-priced, quality items is something I took for granted; never realised how much.


This is the way I feel about things. The cost of buying good quality seems really high. I went out to buy a jumper today and the only ones I found I liked were so expensive. I came home empty handed. I just couldn't bring myself to spent so much on something I could get for 1/4 the cost in the UK. :(

[katandbob]

This is the way I feel about things. The cost of buying good quality seems really high. I went out to buy a jumper today and the only ones I found I liked were so expensive. I came home empty handed. I just couldn't bring myself to spent so much on something I could get for 1/4 the cost in the UK. :(

LOL - I have done the same thing - I decided I didn't really need the jumper - and I am now even waiting for the sales at The Warehouse LOL

I got some bargains last saturday - tshirts/shorts reduced from $24+ to £2.97 each:raebanana So I am now set with 2 pairs of board shorts and 5 t-shirts for next summer:nice1 (well it helps having a 5bedroomed house and 3 people living in it as I have plenty of wardrobe space LOL)

I need a new table - the chairs are falling apart on the ones we have - but I am saving till I have the money - Not a thing I would have done in the UK

But I think its more to do with the NZ low wages/high cost of certain items, rather than getting less consumerised - More like "I have learn't my lesson from Previous 'Buy now Think about the bills later' living in the UK" - I vowed I wouldn't do it here - and so far I have stuck to it!

Kat

[Tia Maria]

Moorf wrote:

For me, consumerism is purchasing items based on an associated status symbol or branding - something that you don't necessarily need but that would make you "happier" to own.

I think this sums it up for me too and I think only a small percentage of people who come to NZ are that way inclined, which still leaves a large amount who struggle despite not being consumeristic.

I think its become one of those quick responses "Oh you'll be OK if you're not into designer labels etc", which just doesn't adequately descibe the changes you will have to make.

Kanatakiwi wrote:

"If living in NZ is forcing us to have a simpler lifestyle, consume less and share more, then that can only be a good thing!"

I think this is a good point, I feel a bit like my Gran when I walk around turning off the lights and not letting left-overs go to waste but on the whole they are positive changes.

Zardell wrote:

I flatly refuse to use the money from our UK house sale to finance our day to day NZ living costs - whats the point in being here (or anywhere else for that matter) if you can't manage on your NZ income and have to rely on your savings to get you through ? Just by selling your home, you have removed yourself from your country of origins property ladder, so the last thing you should have to do is utilise that money and source it as the tool to help you get through.

:clap :clap :clap

Stu 70 wrote:

What bothers me though is the fact that many of the folks in NZ have to be frugal not by choice but by the realities of lower wages and higher living expenses. That really takes away the option from you to choose doesn't it? And that is my only concern.

One of the things that really gets me is before we saved for the kids future and for retirement etc but we haven't managed to save for anything since being in NZ.

SarahEDH wrote:

When I decide against buying, for a value-related reason, sometimes I do feel frustrated or annoyed that it takes more work to find items that are worth the money. It's the convenience of shopping in the U.S. that I miss, rather than high-priced or status goods.

It does seem that sometimes you have to spend more time shopping here to be less consumeristic!

nickydwuk wrote:

During that time we realised that the kids did not 'need' the latest xbox game and they soon adapted to having one pair of trainers - the cheapest in the shop. We bought and still do buy a lot of our stuff through mail order catalogues and then only if we need it. Now I have been working for 7 months it has been good to be able to repay our overdraft and treat the kids once in a while. However they have learnt that if they want something they have to save their pocket money for it.

It will help but the latest xbox game and 2 pairs of trainers isn't even on our radar here. The kind of extras I've had to decide about recently:

Swimming Lessons: $95
Local Junior Soccer: $95
Complete soccer kit: $100
Ladder (to clear out gutters): $125
Curtains to make up for no double glazing: $250 - Ready made but too short, $750 if made to measure
Birthday present for Nephew - £20 Amazon voucher ($54)
In fact 4 UK Birthdays and 4 NZ birthdays in last 4 weeks

I've probably listed about $1000 worth of extras that have come up in the last month. And next month I already know I've got 2 passport renewals to pay for.

I know there are ways to cut all these costs but the point I'm trying to make is some people think they will be cutting out IPods and flash clothes but instead it might be that your son can't do the after school activities that everyone else does. Or you can't afford to keep your house warm.

Put simply NZ has a lot going for it but it is very expensive and I think the people that succeed here either have, lots of money or 2 incomes - no kids or a complete love of NZ that means the sacrificies are worth it. IMHO it has nothing to do with giving up designer labels.

Cheers

Tia

[zardell]

the point I'm trying to make is some people think they will be cutting out IPods and flash clothes but instead it might be that your son can't do the after school activities that everyone else does. Or you can't afford to keep your house warm.

Put simply NZ has a lot going for it but it is very expensive and I think the people that succeed here either have, lots of money or 2 incomes - no kids or a complete love of NZ that means the sacrificies are worth it. IMHO it has nothing to do with giving up designer labels.

Cheers

Tia




Absolutely spot on Tia - well said.

I really hope that all the forumites waiting to make the big move to NZ really take this thread on board.

It's not necessarily being a 'materialistic' person that's the problem - for some people just making enough to survive is the issue.

A lot of comment has been made about how some forumites have changed their spending habits and now that they are out of debt they don't/won't use credit cards etc. Well, that can only be a good thing, but if you think that by selling your home, paying off any debts and starting again in NZ will solve all your problems it won't - not if you can't earn enough to pay the bills. Maybe not having enough disposable income was the reason you had to use the credit card in the first place?? Surely if the cash was available to use it would have been the better option.

If you are a 'Buy Now - Pay Later' person, NZ could be a fantastic learning curve for you, because being able to budget is another key to survival in a low income/high cost of living society.

Emigrating to another country is not necessarily always the answer. It's not like coming on a long holiday and thinking 'We'll be alright cos we get nearly $3 to the £1'........you will be earning $'s and therefor you will only have $'s to spend, unless of course you dip into those hard earned savings !!!!!

Rambling now, so I'll shut up..........

Julie

xx

[DSC]

Thank you to all of you for your very frank and enlightning posts. Food for thought as they say.

[Trigirl]

as i've said many times before each person/family is individual. you need to do your own budget with realistic expectations of after tax earnings, rent/mortgage, food, and everything else you are likely to spend. budget the necessities first and see if you will survive. then budget the other things that will make a big difference to your level of happiness.

we spent a lot of time going through this exercise before coming out here. if you dont then you take a big risk. lots of people get a big shock when they arrive here.

[jubjub]

Watched "Sunday" tonight a segment called drowning in debt and apparently the average kiwi spends $1.15 per $1 of income. They featured two families with kids, both had an income of $100k, one mum worked part time but most of her money went on childcare and the other stayed at home. Neither family were doing well and had scary debts, one sold the house prior to any potential reposession proceedings to find somewhere cheaper, he was on north shore, the other guy was going to go to rented so they had more disposable income, they had a mortgage of $300k.

Hopefully the clip with be available on http://tvnzondemand.co.nz/content/ondemand_index/ondemand_skin for you all to have a look if you missed it.

I am keeping fingers crossed that the budget next week will be a good one, even if they raise each tax earning threshold a little bit, it will help a lot of folks (inc us!)

[zardell]

I think it's about time that NZIS updated their website and took a more realistic view on the income vs expenditure pages - grossly outdated information IMHO.

It's been said before, but I think it needs to be said again - NZ streets are NOT paved with gold and not all of us are called Dick Whittington!

Before coming here, do your sums and then do 'em again - it's not enough to budget on just 'getting by', remember to budget for the unexpected too...the unexpected can and does happen.

Julie

xx

[ruthyroo]

I think its become one of those quick responses "Oh you'll be OK if you're not into designer labels etc", which just doesn't adequately descibe the changes you will have to make.

One of the things that really gets me is before we saved for the kids future and for retirement etc but we haven't managed to save for anything since being in NZ.

I know there are ways to cut all these costs but the point I'm trying to make is some people think they will be cutting out IPods and flash clothes but instead it might be that your son can't do the after school activities that everyone else does. Or you can't afford to keep your house warm.

Put simply NZ has a lot going for it but it is very expensive and I think the people that succeed here either have, lots of money or 2 incomes - no kids or a complete love of NZ that means the sacrificies are worth it. IMHO it has nothing to do with giving up designer labels.

Cheers

Tia

Absolutely spot on Tia. The whole idea that consumerist lifestyle = flash cars and labels and Xboxes, "I can easily give that up" perception is way wrong. I know a lot of kiwi families living on more or less average incomes and they struggle to do what we in the UK might see as the absolute basics - buy decent food, insulate and heat their houses, pay for petrol and other bills. If you are coming to NZ and planning to live as a family on the 'average NZ income' then missing out on flash cars, foreign travel and eating out is going to be the least of your worries - you are also going to have to compromising on heating your house, letting your kids do activities, holidays anywhere other than in a tent, furnishing you home etc etc. And as Tia says you will not be able to save / invest for the future.

It's a bummer. We've been the typical DINKY's for some time (double income no kids yet) and it's been great financially, probably better in NZ than the UK. But we made a committment to live on one salary for the last 1.5 years and gosh it's a struggle even just for the two of us. We very rarely go out, or eat out, don't buy clothes / CDs / books, shop in the op shop, only drink wine at weekends. And even budgeting like mad we can't cover the car service / WOF, contact lenses or medical bills from that single salary - we dip into savings for these. And no way could we save a cent for the future on one salary.

But that's how new zealanders live.

[willowshouse]

But that's how new zealanders live.




Mmmm .. we went to the last school disco where they have a BBQ and at the end of the night the leftovers were offered to the parents still left. We took a few bits (out of politeness really) but I talked to one Mum a few days later and found out tht what they took home was their breakfast and lunch for the next day!

It really does bring it home how wasteful we were in the UK (trying hard not to be in NZ).

Excellent thread!

[Lupin]

Tia Maria wrote: I know there are ways to cut all these costs but the point I'm trying to make is some people think they will be cutting out IPods and flash clothes but instead it might be that your son can't do the after school activities that everyone else does. Or you can't afford to keep your house warm.

Put simply NZ has a lot going for it but it is very expensive and I think the people that succeed here either have, lots of money or 2 incomes - no kids or a complete love of NZ that means the sacrificies are worth it. IMHO it has nothing to do with giving up designer labels.

That is so, so right.

We are on titchy income but I put myself in the latter category; NZ is worth the sacrifices but we watch our account daily on-line and this week we have four days until payday and $51.30 in the account. Our electric bill is over due. We quite literally struggle to make the income eek out over the fortnight and when it doesn't we've eaten from the very back of the cupboard, sent the kids to school/kindie with the most pathetic lunchboxes and just coped. For us it really is worth it, but we KNEW it would be like this and we KNOW it's not for long for us (I'll be earning reasonable wage in five years).

If I had thought we'd live a comporable lifestyle minus the unconsidered purchases in NZ, I'd be very, very worried. Unless you are coming over with a chunk of capital and will have an income 3x that of your UK salary or it will be over the $100K mark for a family of four of less, you may find yourselves living a very different lifestyle here.

To live in NZ on a small wage you've got to love what NZ has to offer, but bear in mind for very few people does that include a consumerist lifestyle.

We spent Mother's Day walking to the most beautiful falls and picnicing in wonderful Hawkes Bay sunshine and on the way home we stopped to gather wood because we can't afford to buy any more, but the kids see gathering wood as fun, they don't know that we are so skint we gather wood just to keep warm.

[nickydwuk]

If I had thought we'd live a comporable lifestyle minus the unconsidered purchases in NZ, I'd be very, very worried. Unless you are coming over with a chunk of capital and will have an income 3x that of your UK salary or it will be over the $100K mark for a family of four of less, you may find yourselves living a very different lifestyle here.



Previous posts have said that an income of $40-$50k was just the bare minimum and considering the average wage for NZ is quoted as approx $37k does this mean that if we come over and earn $46k with no mortgage we will be almost on the pverty line. Reading this thread it appears that unless you earn over $100k or have 2 incomes it will be virtually impossible to cope financially regardless of lifestyle changes.

We know that NZ is not the place to make yourself rich but we were hoping to be able to pay the bills and put food on the table. It seems that we won't be able to do that very well.:no

[Moorf]

I think it's about time that NZIS updated their website and took a more realistic view on the income vs expenditure pages - grossly outdated information IMHO.

I agree, perhaps a few emails from those already here would alert them to this ;)

In Chch this weekend there was an exhibition for immigrants which included talks on Kiwi values, lifestyle differences, budgeting etc - just 30 turned up, I agree with the write up in the Press, not very well marketed, I tend to keep my eye on local immigration issues but I didn't find out about it until days before.... :roll - still, a good idea if done well...

Having read the above comments on incomes and lifestyles, have many reading it gone away thinking of downsizing their ideas of where to live and size of house/mortgage to ensure they have more disposable, or have some of you decided not to come or changed your plans fearful that you couldn't maintain those ideals?

[Lupin]

Quote Nickydwuk: Previous posts have said that an income of $40-$50k was just the bare minimum and considering the average wage for NZ is quoted as approx $37k does this mean that if we come over and earn $46k with no mortgage we will be almost on the pverty line. Reading this thread it appears that unless you earn over $100k or have 2 incomes it will be virtually impossible to cope financially regardless of lifestyle changes.

We know that NZ is not the place to make yourself rich but we were hoping to be able to pay the bills and put food on the table. It seems that we won't be able to do that very well.

I think you're misunderstanding people's posts if that's the impression you've got. I started a thread called "Living on the Breadline" where I confess to having a pretty average Kiwi income and a massive mortgage to service, however I don't consider myself on the poverty line.

If you come here and earn $46K with no mortgage to service, you'll be better off than the average Kiwi; however the average Kiwi lives a more frugal existence than the average Brit so you may need to adjust what you see as essential.

Where I said we sometimes run our of money before pay day, this is with fuel in the tank and food in the cupboards....we just don't have anything to actually spend, so not poverty line imo.

You can do it and if your reasons for coming to NZ are right, you'll feel like you're in paradise :D

[nickydwuk]

Thanks for putting me right.:) I really want to make the move but OH wants to make sure we can manage financially. We live a relatively frugal lifestyle but have adapted to our income. We can now treat ourselves and the kids occasionally. I have emphasised to them all that we may not be able to do this when we first emmigrate - especially for the first 12-18months. But then I start to read threads like this and think that maybe we won't even be able to 'manage' for the first 6 months. You have reassured me a little. I suppose the only way to find out is to make the move but that is such a risk. :eek:

[Trigirl]

nicky - have you done a budget? i mean a full one that splits out how much you think you might earn plus how much you are going to spend on:

Mortgage
Food
Other supermarket stuff
House Maintenance
Clothing and shoes
Car WOF/maintenance
Bus
House insurance
Contents insurance
Car insurance
Travel insurance
Health insurance
Internet
Phone
Mobile
Sky
Petrol
Rates
Electricity / Heating
Medical bills
Holidays
School fees/donations
Sports clubs/gym membership
etc etc etc

if you have then you can come over with a certain amount of confidence. if you haven't then you are taking a risk.

[zardell]

nicky - have you done a budget? i mean a full one that splits out how much you think you might earn plus how much you are going to spend on:

if you have then you can come over with a certain amount of confidence. if you haven't then you are taking a risk.



Totally agree.

And for anyone else reading this thread do your sums before you make a costly mistake.



Julie

xx

[Carey]

So how does the average Kiwi manage after retirement? If very few are saving when they are earning, what happens when they are not?

[jubjub]

Carey, Many people I know suffer with a large mortgage to get a house under their belt as a retirement fund, often more than one house too, for rental investment.

[nickydwuk]

nicky - have you done a budget? i mean a full one that splits out how much you think you might earn plus how much you are going to spend on:



I have been trying to - but it is difficult until we know what we need, how much etc... I can work out my income and some of the basics but I can't budget for energy costs, bus fares (as I don't know exactly how far I will be travelling), insurance, phone, internet, rates. These are all unknowns. Some general pointers on approximate costs would help. We are looking at a 2-3 bed house in Dunedin area, there will be me, OH and 2 teenage boys - oh, and 4 dogs. We will need 1 car. Any help on rough costs based on this would be great.

[Moorf]

Have PM'd you...

[liamnrach]

I am now really concerned....

I am on a farily decent wage here in the UK and my OH also works. We are (fairly) comfortable here (mortgage is a bit crippling!) and have some disposable income at the end of each month that allows us to go out for meals/cinema etc on a fairly frequent basis. However, we do not buy designer gear or have a posh car or top of the range TV etc

Looking at the posts it raises some concerns as to whether we will actually be able to afford to live a half decent life! Esp if my OH cannot initially secure a job for herself. My concerns grow when I think about the time that we start a family....:no

Dont get me wrong, we are not looking to live the high-life, but we our primary reason to move to NZ in the first place is to have a better standard and quality of life than we would have in the UK.

We are looking at moving to the Hamiltion area and will have around £60k as a deposit for a house (we plan to rent first, though). I am now worried that this will be nowhere near enough:uhoh

It is our dream to live in NZ, but if it is going to be so much of a struggle perhaps I should re-evaluate our desire?

I am glad to have read this post though, because there is of course a danger of looking at the entire process and end result with the 'ole rose tinted glasses! I would be interested to hear if anyone can allay my fears and give us a bit of a boost?

Thankyou.....

Liam

[wiki]

I have been trying to - but it is difficult until we know what we need, how much etc... I can work out my income and some of the basics but I can't budget for energy costs, bus fares (as I don't know exactly how far I will be travelling), insurance, phone, internet, rates. These are all unknowns. Some general pointers on approximate costs would help. We are looking at a 2-3 bed house in Dunedin area, there will be me, OH and 2 teenage boys - oh, and 4 dogs. We will need 1 car. Any help on rough costs based on this would be great.

Dunedin is a lot less expensive housing wise than Chch, Wellington or Auckland, so that's a good start.

http://buses.orc.govt.nz/BusTT/PDF/{A1D0D2A6-63E6-47AA-AE0D-B9E883EB29A0}.pdf

http://buses.orc.govt.nz/BusTT/PDF/{A5D32DCE-E683-49D8-9EB6-195A7CF3EBF3}.pdf

The top site is the bus fares in Dunedin and the bottom is the bus map with the fare stages - you almost certainly won't be further out than bus stage 3 so that's $1.80 a single trip if you get a concession which is a lot cheaper than you'd pay for parking in town.

You only have to pay rates once you've bought a home - if you're renting the landlord pays the rates (which I wish they'd adopt in the UK) ... so when you look around for houses to buy they will tell you the rates (based on value of land+buildings on it).

Or have a look here as it tells you rates - but just be aware that if your next door neighbour has a smaller section or fewer bedrooms they'll be paying less rates. Dunedin City Council would also be able to tell you the rates on a property - but that's only going to be useful once you see one to buy. However, they might be able to give you a rough guide to the size of house and land you want so that you can factor it in ahead of arriving.

[Ana&Steve]

Abit OT, but I was wondering if you pay rates all at once, or can you make payments along w/ your mortgage every month? I may be thinking too US on this, as our rates (property taxes) are $4000US every year, and we have no choice but to pay them monthly. Maybe NZ rates are less?
Ana

[wiki]

Abit OT, but I was wondering if you pay rates all at once, or can you make payments along w/ your mortgage every month? I may be thinking too US on this, as our rates (property taxes) are $4000US every year, and we have no choice but to pay them monthly. Maybe NZ rates are less?
Ana

Just on skype with my sister and she says you can pay Dunedin city council rates by Direct Debit either weekly, fortnightly, monthly or quarterly - or you can pay as a lump sum in one go. As for the rates it really does depend on each council and how much land you have, how many bedrooms etc...

[Trigirl]

NZ rates are less. ours are about $2000NZ per year.

nicky - try looking at some of the internet co websites for costs - we use telstraclear - or there's whoosh, orcon etc (even telecom if you don't mind the slowest broadband in the world)

i'd try searching some other threads for heating costs etc.

remember these don't have to be exact costs - its trying to give you an idea - but overbudget for each item rather than underbudget (we did that and still found we'd underbudgeted in total!)

liam - if better quality of life means more disposable income you are coming to the wrong place. do you know yet how much you are going to be earning. in your situation i would definitely budget one salary only - after all if you are planning on starting a family thats where you are heading anyway.

[nickydwuk]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I have now started a more detailed budget and things look like being ok. OH is very wary and really needs reassurance that once we move to the other side of the world we can cope without needing to be bailed out by family or the bank. We hope those days are over:laugh

I have really appreciated those who have pm'd me - I think I went into panic mode. Have had a couple of glasses of wine (OH is at work) and now I feel better - oops... drinking alone the first step to being an alcoholic hic:cheers

[zardell]

Listed below are our monthly utility bills for April.

We are a couple - no kids.

Bear in mind that we live in a reasonably well insulated 3 bed house (only use 2 of the bedrooms - one of those as an office) and only have one heat pump in the lounge - no heating in any other part of the house other than one oil filled rad that is used in the office.

Water is heated by electricity.

We have only just started to put the heat pump on for a short while in the mornings and evenings and this is not yet reflected in the electric bill.

We have Sky TV, including the sports channel.

Telecom is our broadband provider (Unlimited usage) and we also have an 'Anytime' plan with them for our phone calls. The 'Anytime' plan basically means that we can make free local calls anytime (up to 1 hour long) and all other calls are at discounted rate. We use their 0161 facility for overseas calls (Google it !!)

Rates are in with the rent.

Water rates yet to be charged for, but have been told to expect a bill of about $60 for the year - can't see that myself - think it will be more. We'll have to see.

Electricity (including heating the water)............................$164.51
Sky TV (No pay-to-view charges for films etc)...................$92.03
Telecom (Incl broadband and all calls)...............................$136.93

Don't start converting those charges back to your own currency - you will be earning and spending NZ$'s

On top of that there is the rent to pay, plus insurance, petrol and other car expenses,food (I usually spend about $180 a week on a supermarket shop - all fresh food and cooked from scratch)

This is just to give you an idea of day to day living general living costs. Note that no mention has been made to our retirement plans, savings or any other personal costings as I believe that by their very nature, they are individual needs and cannot be exampled here.

No-one can tell you how much your bills are going to be - every persons needs differ, but I thought that the above may help somebody.

Good luck with your calculations.........

Julie

xx

[katandbob]

So how does the average Kiwi manage after retirement? If very few are saving when they are earning, what happens when they are not?

Theres an engineer at Robs place - hes 75!

now he may just be working because he loves the job:laugh

But I suspect its because hes still fit and able to - so hes doing it for the money.

....

they are going on about the Kiwisaver at work - ie superannuation, but what irked me in all the info they handed over was that they Couldn't guarantee what amount of money you would have at he end of it.:confused:

most at work would rather pay off their mortgage quicker - only the ones that would be retiring in a few years thought it would be worth setting up - JUST for the $1000 that the Govt would kick in Tax free!

Kat:uhoh

[katandbob]

I have been trying to - but it is difficult until we know what we need, how much etc... I can work out my income and some of the basics but I can't budget for energy costs, bus fares (as I don't know exactly how far I will be travelling), insurance, phone, internet, rates. These are all unknowns. Some general pointers on approximate costs would help. We are looking at a 2-3 bed house in Dunedin area, there will be me, OH and 2 teenage boys - oh, and 4 dogs. We will need 1 car. Any help on rough costs based on this would be great.

Just a little word of advise.... make sure that you are very carefull in where and what you rent - we spent a few days in Dunedin as it was one of the areas we had job offers

Some houses are damp as they hardly get any sun, so consequently your heating bills would be higher, also it was frosty when we were there - and some of the Driveways were so steep it made my stomach lurch:laugh So take this in mind (All the reasonable priced rentals were in cold places) You paid premium $$ for a good Sunny well maintained rental.

As to the Bills, I think that our bills are no dearer than what we paid in the UK - ie Rates are $1000+ but are due to go up by 9%or more:no , in the UK our rates were GBP 1,700.
Our Telephone bill has changed as I have now got the Overseas plan, so its a flat $45 plus line rental a month...
Food - oh gosh - it depends on what and where I buy, but I try to get specials and cook from scratch.
I hope to find time to do the vegi garden for next yr! but the weekend goes too fast - so much for seeing NZ We spend all weekend doing chores at present - Hopfully this will change in time!

Good Luck,

Kat

[katandbob]

I went into panic mode. Have had a couple of glasses of wine (OH is at work) and now I feel better - oops... drinking alone the first step to being an alcoholic hic:cheers
:laugh

Been there done that - just remember everyones idea of breadline is different - Plus different areas have different costs etc.

All areas will have expensive housing/rates (even in Invercargill;) ) so this will factor into your budgets - I could have bought on the Nth side of Ingill and I would have been paying twice as much for less land.

At least we have pleanty of choice on the wine front:nice1

Kat

[zardell]

As to the Bills, I think that our bills are no dearer than what we paid in the UK - ie Rates are $1000+ but are due to go up by 9%or more:no , in the UK our rates were GBP 1,700.

Our Telephone bill has changed as I have now got the Overseas plan, so its a flat $45 plus line rental a month...




How much is your telephone line rental Kat - in fact, how much is your telephone bill (pm me if you want) cos I need to find a cheaper option for us. Mind you, we've made more overseas calls recently due to OH's family bereavement etc.

Don't quite get what you mean about the rates/bills here...do you mean that yours are the same cost if you convert from $'s to £'s or that comparatively, the bills take up the same percentage of your NZ income as they used to of your UK income?

Sorry Kat - I'm having a thicko day.......not unusual for me......:roll

:nice1 Oh yeah - the wine might have summat to do with my thick days eh??

Julie

xx

[katandbob]

How much is your telephone line rental Kat - in fact, how much is your telephone bill (pm me if you want) cos I need to find a cheaper option for us. Mind you, we've made more overseas calls recently due to OH's family bereavement etc.

Don't quite get what you mean about the rates/bills here...do you mean that yours are the same cost if you convert from $'s to £'s or that comparatively, the bills take up the same percentage of your NZ income as they used to of your UK income?

Sorry Kat - I'm having a thicko day.......not unusual for me......:rol

:nice Oh yeah - the wine might have summat to do with my thick days eh??

Julie

xx

Rates - comparative to what we have coming in - we pay quarterly - next one due June - $235 (actually its less than the UK - but its due a big rise so I recon it will be around the same as we payed in the UK soon)

oh and we have to pay $80 to Environment Southland too:no They didnt tell me that when I bought the house though - and it was a shock when it popped up - Thank goodness its just that a year!

Water Quarterly - $43 (we have tank that is connected to mains for dry spells)

Telecom http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0703/S00049.htm read this - my April bill was a whopping $130.74 - but this included the $45 for the next month plus the bill - as you had to give 30 days notice - SO IF YOU DONT WANT TO PAY DOUBLE - CHECK this when you ring customer services, and if this is so - say you wish the service to change over after the 30days notice:confused: if you get what I mean)

Electric - not in yet:uhoh

Wood - Free (Still burning the stuff on the farm:nice1 )

Food - did that b4 and it changes every week


This month is a bit tight due to the car going wrong (this is the first time I have had to watch my bank balance though)

My car this mth - $60 for checking why it wasnt running properly
Robs Truck - $550 - 2 new rear tyres
- $1600 - new Diesel pump ingector thingy (I got them to invoice to work to give me a few weeks grace - as I have the 2 above going out this week

Ring me tonight if you want Julie if you want to know more about the Phone plan

Kat

[Moorf]

On the whole people do seem to get by here and I found this thread getting on a little bit of a downer, enough's been said already about wants/needs/breadline/average lifestyles... you really can't understand that until you're here imho...

A basic knowledge of what your after-tax income is (plenty of threads in money section on how to work this out), coupled with knowing the rental levels in the town you're looking at (easy to do online but not easy to judge areas - cheap rentals are usually cheap for a reason) plus the great info people have given re their actual budgets and bills should give you a really good picture of what to expect. No-one can tell you anything else except the basic facts unless they know you and your lifestyle.

Remember, no-one's included all the incidentals such as beers/wine/kids entertainment/school+associated fees, pet food, vets/immunisation fees, petrol, public transport, childcare, car servicing, dental and doctor appts, hairdressers/barbers, opticians, prescriptions, ....... etc etc...

I pm'd my bills etc to Nicky last night as didn't want them all on here but a few people have now asked so here are a few less financially personal bits and bobs...

Rates: $1400 / yr (recently amended) includes water/environment etc etc (just over 5000sqm land/250sqm house - rural but with all town amenities i.e. mains water) My parents were pleasantly shocked - they pay just short of £3000 a year in council tax on their Sussex property (around $7000 NZ/yr)!!!

Solid Fuel & Electricity: $3000 a year (our electricity bills in summer can be $90 - $120) and the coldest month could reach $400-$500 if we have lots of extra heaters on etc etc.

Broadband: $70 / mth

Phone (we use Skype and MSN to UK/abroad): Bill usually around $40 - 60 / month

Sky: Basic package $40/mth
Car insurance: woz's $300/yr mine $400/yr up slightly cos of car accident (both 2nd hand 10 yr old car/4x4 estate)
House insurance: $400 / yr
WOF's: $35 twice a year (plus any costs to get car thru, if any!)
Car Rego: $200 / yr per car (kinda like UK car tax)
Shopping: $200-$250 / week for just two adults excluding wine/beer

Those everyday items above come to (and I can't be bothered to get calc out so it's in me noodle!!) AROUND $1400 a month.

Of course, so many variables mean that others will be very different. Hope that helps a little... the more scenarios you can get from people the better picture you can build...

[incredible hulse]

To add to the mix:
Rates - currently 1500 dollars (about to go up 9% I believe). This is for just over 5500 sqm section and we have septic tank and tank water. Refuge collection is not offered and costs about another 150 dollars for fortnightly service. Saw a place in Lower Hutt the other day (RV 1.5 mill,rates 7K !!)
House Insurance - ouch. Just been down the council and got the house plans which showed we had rather more decking than we had declared (221 sqm in addition to 89 sqm garage and 273 sqm house) increases to about 800 dollars
Contents insurance - 102k cover = 350 dollars
Car insurance - 550 and 350 dollars for mine
Gas - oven, water and 1/2 house Central heating ballpark 1200 per annum
Electric - ballpark 2k per annum
Food and wine - about 1200 per month (2 kids)
Kindy fees - 300 per annum
Train - 2600 per annum

[Tia Maria]

I wonder if its worth starting a budget thread where everyone who's posted various monthly and annual costs could cut and paste their costs again?

I think its really useful information and it will make it easier for everone to find and add to.

Cheers

Tia

[andy141]

Those everyday items above come to (and I can't be bothered to get calc out so it's in me noodle!!) AROUND $1400 a month.

Of course, so many variables mean that others will be very different. Hope that helps a little...

$1400 a month (excluding mortgage) doesn't sound too bad to someone living in the UK but to the 'average' Kiwi is one shedload of money.

This thread has been extremely interesting but, as alluded to by Moorf, seems to be running out of steam. What would be interesting would be a posting showing the true average cost of living. To maintain privacy if you all nominate a trusted forumite you could PM your living costs to him/her. They could then be averaged and posted for all to see.

As a passing shot, has no-one heard of the phrase "Cut your cloth to suit your purse"?:exit

Incidentally, talking of cutting cloth, do any of the girlies (or boys come to that!!) who have contributed to this thread made any of their own clothes to help out with the family budget? Maybe a new thread ought to be started for the swopping of patterns and designs :D

Andy

[nickydwuk]

:laugh


At least we have pleanty of choice on the wine front:nice1

Kat

That and the fact that Cadbury's chocolate is available is all we really need :laugh

[Pip]

[QUOTE=zardell;131024]Listed below are our monthly utility bills for April.

Thanks Julie - this is really useful. We're moved from our holiday home, where all utilities were included, into our own place, so am anxiously waiting to see how much the monthly bills are going to be. On the plus side, the mortgage is $200 cheaper than the holiday home rental, so am hoping it might all balance out... nervously chewing fingernails!

[Ana&Steve]

Incidentally, talking of cutting cloth, do any of the girlies (or boys come to that!!) who have contributed to this thread made any of their own clothes to help out with the family budget? Maybe a new thread ought to be started for the swopping of patterns and designs :D

AndyI can make some pretty awesome period Norse (Viking) outfits for men and women....anyone interested? We could start a new trend!:nice1
Ana

[katandbob]

Incidentally, talking of cutting cloth, do any of the girlies (or boys come to that!!) who have contributed to this thread made any of their own clothes to help out with the family budget? Maybe a new thread ought to be started for the swopping of patterns and designs :D

Andy

:laugh :laugh DO curtains and quilts count?
And Yes the next project is an outfit for the 'Mother of the Bride"

AND I have to outshine the MOTHER OF THE GROOM (not that should be difficult as shes the same age as my mum LOL:laugh )

[katandbob]

That and the fact that Cadbury's chocolate is available is all we really need :laugh

:confused: I think you should do a search on Cadburys chocolate;)

I prefer Whitakers

Kat

[zardell]

[quote=zardell;131024]Listed below are our monthly utility bills for April.

Thanks Julie - this is really useful.





Hey Pip - you're welcome.

Just ask. If I can be of help, I will.

Julie

xx

[Tia Maria]

Katandbob wrote:

:confused: I think you should do a search on Cadburys chocolate;)

:laugh I was thinking the exact same thing but I didn't want to drive her to drink again! :p

Cheers

Tia

[zardell]

On the whole people do seem to get by here and I found this thread getting on a little bit of a downer, enough's been said already about wants/needs/breadline/average lifestyles... you really can't understand that until you're here imho...




Yep, maybe Moorf's right and this thread was getting on a bit of a downer, but having said that, I believe that if we here in NZ, having some experience of 'living the life' can make any would be immigrant take off their 'excited at the thought of a new life' spectacles and put on their 'lets do lots of financial research' spectacles then that can only be a good thing.

IMHO (for what that's worth !!) I truly believe that there may be a few people reading this and other forums that are so miffed off with their present situations that they have this image of 'making a new life in another country' and that can make them blinkered to the financial realities of NZ low incomes vs. cost of living scenario.

If you can afford to live here, NZ is one of the most stunningly beautiful and amazing countries I have ever lived in or visited, so much so that (to coin a Kiwi-ism) it's awesome!

Julie

xx

[stu70]

Yep, maybe Moorf's right and this thread was getting on a bit of a downer, but having said that, I believe that if we here in NZ, having some experience of 'living the life' can make any would be immigrant take off their 'excited at the thought of a new life' spectacles and put on their 'lets do lots of financial research' spectacles then that can only be a good thing.

IMHO (for what that's worth !!) I truly believe that there may be a few people reading this and other forums that are so miffed off with their present situations that they have this image of 'making a new life in another country' and that can make them blinkered to the financial realities of NZ low incomes vs. cost of living scenario.

If you can afford to live here, NZ is one of the most stunningly beautiful and amazing countries I have ever lived in or visited, so much so that (to coin a Kiwi-ism) it's awesome!

Julie

xx
Your note deserves a :clap . Well put. If you guys can make some folks run a quick reality check then this thread has served its purpose. I do not take it as a downer; it only advises the readers to do their homework and lots of research. Nothing wrong with that. Thanks Julie for putting it so nicely. Regards

[hcykana]

OH and I were looking at broadband and mobile pricing tonight. Mobile I can cut down on quite a bit. I was disappointed to find that it doesn't seem that there's any "family" plans in NZ, where several people in a household can split minutes over 2 or more mobile lines.

However, broadband is something that we NEED, and we need a LOT of bandwidth. OH will be able to keep his job here in the States, but he needs to do a lot of transferring of very large files. The bandwidth caps and sketchy-sounding network reliability are really freaking us out. I was really hoping that caps would be a thing of the past by early 2008, but it seems that I might have been wishing in vain.

The rest I can take or leave. We buy most things (clothing, furniture) from thrift/secondhand shops or ebay already, and I expect to do more of the same in NZ. We're the same with cars. We'd be fairly happy with a nice used Suburu or Toyota. We do eat out a fair bit, so I suppose one of us will have to learn how to cook more than frozen pizza.

I am growing more concerned by the day that we're not going to be able to afford to stay in NZ once we finally get there. I have the potential to make decent money, and OH will come out ahead even with the US dollar being in the toilet. Still, between rent, food, and what's bound to be a horrific internet bill, I think even the mild consumerism we participate in here will be wiped out by necessity.

[nickydwuk]

Thanks to all the help & advice from you all. I have now worked out a rough budget -some things are just wild guesses. It looks as if for the first few months whilst we are renting we will have a surplus of $300 -wow!!!! this is after we have allocated a reasonable amount for savings. Once we buy our own property without mortgage we will have a surplus of $1000. This is on my wage only - OH may decide to get a part time job once he gets fed up with early retirement and housework, shopping, taxi service to me and the kids etc... In which case we would be even better off. Although it is not a lot to cover the unexpected there are things I have allowed for that could be reduced so all in all we can survive - maybe not to the standard we have in the UK (we are both working full time so have more disposable income but also a mortgage) but we hope that the change in lifestyle in NZ will encourage us to do things that do not cost and become less materialistic. :)

[ruthyroo]

Sounds good Nicky - not having a mortgage / rent to pay will make a massive difference. Enjoy!