[nippa&pippa]

This is one of emails from friends arrived today....

"Just a quick e-mail to bring you up to date with how things are here - We have sold our house & will be homeless if we can't find anywhere by the end of August! Fancy a couple of lodgers? (Only joking!!) We just don't know where to move to - but I guess we will sort ourselves out eventually, trouble is that the UK seems to be getting worse all the time with thousands pouring in by the day from the old Balkan States & anywhere else for that matter - no wonder so many Brits are getting out!"

Hmmmm, Got two friends already planning on emigrating to New Zealand too...
Have you got any of your friends or family want to move out of UK too or planning to emigrate to NZ?

[K&CS]

I have to be honest, no!! I don't know anyone who has any great desire to leave and I think a lot of people thought we were mad for doing so! I also think a lot of people think we will be back with our tails between our legs in a couple of years....

For me the move here was about moving to NZ rather than leaving UK, if you know what I mean. The move has worked out better than I could ever have expected, but I don't always find it particularly easy to relate to the 'UK going downhill' threads - probably more because I came from an area where luckily a lot of those problems didn't apply.

I'd love it though if some of my friends did want to move to NZ obviously!!

Kate x

[Sam B]

No, I don't know anyone else who is moving out and like Kate I didn't move because I hated the UK and I didn't have issues with immigration there. My friends in the UK keep sending me emails about how beautiful Cornwall looks in May, and about the lovely weather they've been having, I think they're trying to get me back for the barrage (have I spelt that right) of photos I sent them of us on various beautiful beaches and mountains when we arrived.

I wish they would all emigrate here though - then it would be perfect.

[nippa&pippa]

I think it is depend on whereabout in UK you used to live as heavy populations of immigrant go to areas where the their old country's communities is so strong in like midland, london, north west etc.

[zardell]

Have you got any of your friends or family want to move out of UK too or planning to emigrate to NZ?




Unfortunately not.

I don't suffer with homesickness, but I do suffer with MMMS - Missing My Mates Syndrome.

If they were out here too my life would be damn near perfect.

Julie

xx

[zardell]

I think it is depend on whereabout in UK you used to live as heavy populations of immigrant go to areas where the their old country's communities is so strong in like midland, london, north west etc.



Quite agree and in some ways, I can't say I blame 'em.

One thing I miss is being able to have a meaningless conversation with a person who could be a total stranger to me, but who's on my wave length.

Venus and Mars................

Julie

xx

[Milliemoo]

Unfortunately not.

I don't suffer with homesickness, but I do suffer with MMMS - Missing My Mates Syndrome.

If they were out here too my life would be damn near perfect.

Julie

xx

Oh me too!

Milliemoo

[willsken]

I think I am one of the lucky ones. A very good friend of mine has just had PR and will be out as soon as her house sells. She will even be in the same town as me. :D

[Lupin]

I have to be honest, no!! I don't know anyone who has any great desire to leave and I think a lot of people thought we were mad for doing so! I also think a lot of people think we will be back with our tails between our legs in a couple of years....

For me the move here was about moving to NZ rather than leaving UK, if you know what I mean. The move has worked out better than I could ever have expected, but I don't always find it particularly easy to relate to the 'UK going downhill' threads - probably more because I came from an area where luckily a lot of those problems didn't apply.

I'd love it though if some of my friends did want to move to NZ obviously!!

Agree!

Also, am I the only one who finds phrases like thousands pouring in every day just a little wince-inducing. Firstly, there are more Brits living overseas than there are immigrants in Britain. Secondly, we're immigrants. Pouring into NZ in our thousands :roll

[Jo Jo]

Agree!

Also, am I the only one who finds phrases like thousands pouring in every day just a little wince-inducing. Firstly, there are more Brits living overseas than there are immigrants in Britain. Secondly, we're immigrants. Pouring into NZ in our thousands :roll

Nope, you're not the only one! Completely agree with you.

[Sam B]

Definitely NOT the only one!

[Debbie P.]

Well, they're not really 'pouring in in their thousands' as far as I can see, but there ARE issues. Like the large numbers of unaccompanied Roma children who just keep arriving, and social services having to spend thousands of pounds looking after them.

I don't want to perceived as 'racist' (and no doubt will be), so maybe I'd better shut up! But - I'm sorry, but it DOES annoy me when people turn up and expect to exploit our welfare state. I DON'T mind people coming to find work or people who are being persecuted seeking refuge, honestly! However, I'm not expecting to go to NZ and live off their welfare state, and it annoys me deeply when others so obviously do that with the UK.

[richard]

Well, they're not really 'pouring in in their thousands' as far as I can see, but there ARE issues.

.....



This was on the BBC News website this week:-

'Sir Simon Milton, leader of Westminster City Council, said he had "anecdotal evidence to suggest that over 2,000 migrants are coming through Victoria coach station on a weekly basis".'

and

'The new figures suggest the London area is losing some 60,000 migrants to other parts of the country every month, they said '

[JoanneG]

Yep – my OH's sister, husband and two boys are already heading out in August, a family from the next village in September, my neighbour and friend – Carey – you might have spotted already, is with us in the will we/won't we stage plus numerous acquaintances!

Do we live in inner city urban nightmare – no rural Suffolk! And I hate to say it but our closest town has a growing immigrant population from both Europe and the Balkans – I also hate to point out that now there is a very real problem with pickpocketing that was unheard of 6 years ago when we moved here. On the upside we now have some more varied eateries – but generally that's where the men seem to 'hang out' – the women are nowhere in sight. (I also perhaps should mention there is a growing problem with drink, drugs and boy racers but no immigrants in sight there).

I struggle with the concept of becoming an immigrant especially as I am very aware of our (British) history and the racial issues in NZ but it is true that we are being invaded by the Balkan States. This in itself is not a problem. Most of the immigants I have come across in the UK are hard working people simply trying to do better for themselves and their families and looking for a better life – sound familiar? The problem is that our borders are open to them without any sort of 'EOI' process therefore the jobs they are sometimes taking – building and joinery – for example is putting our own skilled workmen out of work because the newcomers (I think I prefer this word !) will do the work for much less. Many of them are also being illegally paid much less than the legal minimum wage and they are happy because for them this is very good pay. On one hand the competition is good but our (skilled) workmen deserve a good days pay for their families too.

What is interesting is that people coming to the UK are often looking to do better financially – but many of us headed to New Zealand are looking for better quality of life rather than financial rewards.

[NooDleS]

Food for thought...

My current workplace has a huge workforce turnaround with about 500 people working in the printing and packaging areas combined. We recently exported some of the production work to Latvia and fired 80 skilled employees. The Latvians manufacture and pack for 69p an hour. 1 Year on and they've cottoned on. We now have 60 Latvians working just outside my office and a good 50-60 Polish workers. Fair play a lot of them have an incredibly good work ethic, however, 80 skilled workers were fired and replaced with cheap agency labour. I witness around 10 new foreign workers every fortnight.

It's as much our own 'fault' for trying to take the 'mikey' out of cheap labour. The people we have here WANT to work and work hard is what they do. These people have the same mindset as the rest of us on these forums. They want a better standard of life.

Local community centres are running polish/english lessons.

Town population: 37,000.

I might babel a bit, I take over a half an hour period to post so I forget what i'm saying. I'm quite busy here at work.

[Debbie P.]

What is interesting is that people coming to the UK are often looking to do better financially – but many of us headed to New Zealand are looking for better quality of life rather than financial rewards.

Totally agree with your post.

Yes, it's interesting, isn't it? A shame that so many people in the world have to focus on achieving financial security, whereas we can afford to think about other life goals.

I wish the UK's immigration policy was a bit more than NZ's - it may seem tight, but at least you know where you are with it.

[thezorbster]

We have friends/neighbours across the road from us who are also about to make the journey. Unfortunately they're headed for NI.:wah

[Lupin]

I struggle with the concept of becoming an immigrant especially as I am very aware of our (British) history and the racial issues in NZ but it is true that we are being invaded by the Balkan States. This in itself is not a problem. Most of the immigants I have come across in the UK are hard working people simply trying to do better for themselves and their families and looking for a better life – sound familiar? The problem is that our borders are open to them without any sort of 'EOI' process therefore the jobs they are sometimes taking – building and joinery – for example is putting our own skilled workmen out of work because the newcomers (I think I prefer this word !) will do the work for much less. Many of them are also being illegally paid much less than the legal minimum wage and they are happy because for them this is very good pay. On one hand the competition is good but our (skilled) workmen deserve a good days pay for their families too.

If you admit that most immigrants you "have come across in the UK are hard working people simply trying to do better for themselves and their families and looking for a better life ", why then do you refer to the UK as being "invaded" by the Balkan states? Highly emotive language indeed.

Here is a hard fact: The NHS would literally grind to a halt if it were not for immigration.

Also, we need to be careful not to confuse immigrants with asylum seekers and either with illegal immigrants. Immigrant is not a dirty word, we don't need to use words like "newcomer"; I am an immigrant.

I think there is little doubt that the current immigration policy in the UK is not working, but we can't blame the immigrants for this. If NZ suddenly had virtually open borders most people on this forum would just head over and many more besides.

[hball]

Whilst I accept and understand the comment that most European migration to the UK is for financial reasons while most UK migration to NZ is for a better quality of life, it must be remembered that here in NZ the majority of our immigration is from countries other than UK - and they too have the concept of financial security/gain and so are prepared to work hard and, if necessary, for less wages than their Kiwi counterpart.

NZ is a young, vibrant and growing country, and to be fair we desperately need such people. Ultimately they are the ones who by their enterprise will provide the lifestyle hoped for by others. Case in point, the number of wineries here operated and owned by immigrants from the Balkans.

[Happyfeet]

No, not one person I know is keen to move to NZ. As much as I love it here, that would just make everything totally complete for me if my friends moved over here.

Have been here five years and we cant even get anyone to visit us! Thats another story and something that really winds me up. So chances of emigrating, me thinks, are very low!

[Sam B]

OH well said Lupin!

[lockstock]

I think what may be happening here is that most of us are putting ourselves through enormous stress and financial outlay via the whole NZ immigration process. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing but look at the lengths NZ have gone through to make sure that whoever they let in has a reasonable standard of English for a start. That's before we get into qualifications and areas of need etc, good health and proof of a job offer (or as near as) before we even get on the plane.

The UK is a magnet for EU eastern Europeans because of the growing UK culture of being able to earn more on benefits than being prepared to do an honest day's work. The UK has brought it on itself and good luck to those who are prepared to make the journey to do the work the Brits are too darned idle to do. And they are not joining families already here in established communities.

Finding myself working with Romanian social workers (the county had vacancies which couldn't be filled by UK people) and a very efficient Czech republic vet, I'm grateful they're here. But parking up in a motorway services alongside several dubiously roadworthy Polish/Romanian cars parked up Alamo fashion with families living in them, washing clothes in the services toilet facilities and begging from motorists makes me wonder what the hell is happening.

Yes we'll be immigrants in NZ but we're not refugees from years of tyrannical political regimes which brought countries to their knees. Hang on a minute, I might need to rethink that one.

[willsken]

Immigration is a wonderful thing for any country, I just think the UK has got it wrong in the way they allow such uncontrolled numbers in. As has been pointed out in other posts, they are desperately needed in many professions but that isn’t so for all professions. There have been many a skilled man put out of work because immigrants are coming into the UK and are willing to work for less. Good for them, they aren’t doing anything wrong and can’t be blamed for wanting a better life for their families. It is however, a huge fault with the policy in the UK and it needs to be addressed.

I also think that it depends on where in the UK you live. I came from a village that had few immigrants and I saw no negative effects. It was different in the town where the school I worked in was. There were a great number coming to live from non English speaking countries and the school struggled to educate them. There wasn’t enough money to give them special education and they were failing. I think that there has to be a good enough infrastructure in place to cope and this just isn’t the case in many towns.

Whatever our personal experiences are, they’re going to form our opinions. I just think the UK could take a leaf out of NZ’s book on this one! :yes

[nippa&pippa]

Do everyone agree that UK have gone downhill in last 20 years?
Just Something kiwi friend have said after went to UK in 70's for 5 years, then return in late 90's for good but return back to NZ after less a year because of UK gone downhill.

[willsken]

Do everyone agree that UK have gone downhill in last 20 years?
Just Something kiwi friend have said after went to UK in 70's for 5 years, then return in late 90's for good but return back to NZ after less a year because of UK gone downhill.

I think it has but it's not the only place. I think if you ask that question of people in many countries including NZ they would say it had. Is it just they way we perceive things or has the world just become a more dangerous place to live in?

[Jo Jo]

Do everyone agree that UK have gone downhill in last 20 years?
Just Something kiwi friend have said after went to UK in 70's for 5 years, then return in late 90's for good but return back to NZ after less a year because of UK gone downhill.

No, I don't agree that the UK has gone downhill in the last 20 years, and I find it very strange that someone could think the UK was better in the 1970s than it is now.

The 1970s weren't great years: sexism was rife - the Sex Discrimination At was not passed until 1975. Before that, it was lawful to refuse someone employment on the grounds of their gender. Married women also had fewer rights than they do today, simply because they were married - did you know that in the early 70s if a married woman wanted to open a bank account, she had to get her husband's permission?

Racism was also rife - there was a surge of racism in the early 70s. Britain had passed two Race Relations Acts in 1965 and 1968, but it ws not until the Race Relations Act of 1976, which is still in place today, that discrimination on grounds of race was outlawed in housing, education, employment, vocational training, residential and commercial tenancies, and in the way that goods and services are provided. It also widened the grounds of unlawful racial discrimination to include nationality. So racism was not only rife, it was also effectively lawful in many areas until the mid 70s.

Add to that the high rates of unemployment in the 70s (anyone remember the 3 day week? The Winter of Discontent?) and I'd say that anyone looking back and saying the UK was better in the 70s than it is now must be wearing a huge pair of rose-tinted specs.

[lockstock]

Quote from article in today's (Saturday) Daily Mail:

The Migrants Sneaking Out of Britain

'For years, thousands have hidden in the backs of lorries and even risked death in their determination to cross the Channel and reach Britain. But the tide of illegal immigrants appears to be turning, with border officials reporting and increase in the numbers being caught - this time sneaking out of the UK'

Maybe they know something we don't know!

[Jo Jo]

The concerns voiced here about the current levels of immigration from eastern European countries to the UK are nothing new. At times of high migration, there has always been lots of public hostility towards migrants to the UK, fuelled by right-wing groups and newspapers who complain that these migrants are taking away jobs and houses from British people.

The same concerns were voiced in the late 19th century, when almost a million Jews from Eastern Europe migrated to the UK, and when thousands of Irish came across (between May and August 1841, 57,000 Irish people came to GB).

These concerns were raised again about the thousands of Caribbeans who came to the UK in 1916 to help with the war effort.

And again after the second world war when thousands of Irish and Caribbeans came to the UK after being actively recruited to come here by the British government.

And again, and again, and again. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

What I find ironic, and I have said this somewhere before, is that several people on these boards have given the current level of immigration to the UK as one of the reasons they want to emigrate!

[Lupin]

I simply couldn't agree more Jo Jo. Two excellent, intelligent posts :)

[lockstock]

Oh dear - I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the Daily Mail. If it helps, We only buy it on Saturdays for the TV and sport - it also fits the cat litter tray perfectly! As the daughter of an iimmigrant from post-war Germany, I have personal experience of the history of UK immigrationand its effects. The current population drift from the EU and beyond is having an enormous impact on the UK and many other countries. Stating this as one of the reasons to emigrate to NZ is hardly right -wing fuelled hostility! People are queueing up in their droves to leave the UK and not just for NZ.

[Jo Jo]

lockstock, my last post wasn't written in response to your post mentioning the Daily Mail. It just appeared after your post because it took me so long to write it.

[Jo Jo]

And the UK is introducing a points-based system for immigration next year. See this page on the Home Office website (http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/newsarchive/newpointsbasedsystem) for details.

[Trigirl]

only for people coming to the uk from outside the eu though. which is fine but then the system for controlling immigration from outside the eu is pretty much fine anyway - its not that bit that needs fixing! all the new points system will do is streamline a system that is working ok anyway.

now if they could apply the same points system to eu immigration that could make a big difference.

[incredible hulse]

The concerns voiced here about the current levels of immigration from eastern European countries to the UK are nothing new. At times of high migration, there has always been lots of public hostility towards migrants to the UK, fuelled by right-wing groups and newspapers who complain that these migrants are taking away jobs and houses from British people.

The same concerns were voiced in the late 19th century, when almost a million Jews from Eastern Europe migrated to the UK, and when thousands of Irish came across (between May and August 1841, 57,000 Irish people came to GB).

These concerns were raised again about the thousands of Caribbeans who came to the UK in 1916 to help with the war effort.

And again after the second world war when thousands of Irish and Caribbeans came to the UK after being actively recruited to come here by the British government.

And again, and again, and again. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

What I find ironic, and I have said this somewhere before, is that several people on these boards have given the current level of immigration to the UK as one of the reasons they want to emigrate!
Whilst I tend to agree and have no problem with my immigrant status there is a world of difference between East Europeans entering the UK and UK->NZ migration. Most are migrants "invited" by the NZ govt in that they can bring skills or money to build NZ (similar to the carribeans in the 50+60's) and are not entitled to claim benefits from day 1 (still doesn't stop the snide remarks from Kiwi's occasionally though ;) ).
One of the major reasons people that I meet state the attraction of NZ is that it is quiet and not overcrowded like the UK; seeing as the UK has a declining birth rate I can only assume this is a different way of phrasing that too much immigration to the UK is causing them to leave.
I personally think the UK is a great country and haven't fled to NZ to escape anything. It's got it's problems (some of them definetly down to lax benefits system and too liberal control of borders) but in the whole it's a great place to live - just ask the millions who come in every year

[lockstock]

I realise that JoJo. It was all getting a bit heavy and I didn't want to fan any flames!

[Jo Jo]

only for people coming to the uk from outside the eu though. which is fine but then the system for controlling immigration from outside the eu is pretty much fine anyway - its not that bit that needs fixing! all the new points system will do is streamline a system that is working ok anyway.

now if they could apply the same points system to eu immigration that could make a big difference.

Do you think we should apply the points system to people from France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc.? Or only to people from new member states?

[Jo Jo]

Whilst I tend to agree and have no problem with my immigrant status there is a world of difference between East Europeans entering the UK and UK->NZ migration. Most are migrants "invited" by the NZ govt in that they can bring skills or money to build NZ (similar to the carribeans in the 50+60's) and are not entitled to claim benefits from day 1 (still doesn't stop the snide remarks from Kiwi's occasionally though ;) ).


I don't think there is a world of difference, actually.

People from the A8 countries ( Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia) can only come to the UK if they have work or are self-sufficient. If they come here to work, they have to register on the Workers' Registration Scheme, and they are not entitled to apply for residency until they have been continuously employed for a period of 12 months.

The only benefits they are entitled to until they have residency are Child Benefit and in-work benefits such as tax credits. (And migrants to NZ are eligible to similar benefits.)

If they have a low income, they may also be entitled to Housing Benefit and Council Tax benefit, both of which are means-tested, I think.

People from Bulgaria and Romania who want to come to the UK to work either have to apply for an Accession worker card (if they work in one of only 11 sectors of employment) OR they have to have an offer of work and their employer has to apply for a work permit and then they have to apply for an Accession worker card.

So, in effect that means people from these countries can only come to the UK if they have an offer of work or if they are self-sufficient (if they are not coming here to work they are only allowed to unrestricted leave to remain for 3 months). Again, not that different to the conditions for migrating to NZ. They can't just turn up here without work and claim benefits.

Of course, I am just talking about legal immigrants here. As Lupin pointed out earlier, there is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants, and asylum seekers.

Edited to say: incredible hulse - this post isn't directed to you personally. I just quoted your post because I thought it contained some points I wanted to address that have also been raised (directly and indirectly) on this thread and elsewhere.

[Cardy]

Whew points eh? i wonder if they will let us back in?:uhoh
Oh well never mind suppose we,ll just have to stay in NZ.
Never liked being a pom much anyway.:roll
No seriously though its about time they got tough i hope they mean it this time and its not just bull:no

[Sam B]

JoJo - Thanks for putting so clearly what I am always trying to say but just end up waffling.

[Tia Maria]

For all you family history buffs out there it would be interesting to hear how your family first arrived in the UK.

Although most of my main family are from London, I only have to go back 3 generations to find relatives from Prussia and Ireland. I think both times their immigration wasn't very welcomed!

Not very exotic destinations I know, but quite common I would have thought?

Cheers

Tia

[incredible hulse]

I don't think there is a world of difference, actually.

People from the A8 countries ( Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia) can only come to the UK if they have work or are self-sufficient. If they come here to work, they have to register on the Workers' Registration Scheme, and they are not entitled to apply for residency until they have been continuously employed for a period of 12 months.

The only benefits they are entitled to until they have residency are Child Benefit and in-work benefits such as tax credits. (And migrants to NZ are eligible to similar benefits.)

If they have a low income, they may also be entitled to Housing Benefit and Council Tax benefit, both of which are means-tested, I think.

People from Bulgaria and Romania who want to come to the UK to work either have to apply for an Accession worker card (if they work in one of only 11 sectors of employment) OR they have to have an offer of work and their employer has to apply for a work permit and then they have to apply for an Accession worker card.

So, in effect that means people from these countries can only come to the UK if they have an offer of work or if they are self-sufficient (if they are not coming here to work they are only allowed to unrestricted leave to remain for 3 months). Again, not that different to the conditions for migrating to NZ. They can't just turn up here without work and claim benefits.

Of course, I am just talking about legal immigrants here. As Lupin pointed out earlier, there is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants, and asylum seekers.

Edited to say: incredible hulse - this post isn't directed to you personally. I just quoted your post because I thought it contained some points I wanted to address that have also been raised (directly and indirectly) on this thread and elsewhere.Hi Jo-Jo, no problem there. You are correct in stating that Bulgaria and Romania are working under different rules, however as far as I remember there are some huge differences between EU rules and UK->NZ. The first being that NZ rules are for skilled migrants; this is not the case with EU migrants, and this was exploited by job agencies based overseas taking people on and filling temporary work with workers. As employed by agencies the rules were got around and quite often the work was underpaid and subsidised by working tax credits and housing benefits. The other major difference is that "self-employed" workers were allowed in. This made a mockery of the having to have a job to go to as you could find work on enytering, and in fact there are no known figures on the amount of people entering under this system and then finding work when here - it was conservatively estimated at approx 600k workers in 2 years. Again I suspect cash in hand work was prevalent reducing take home pay (I personally have heard plenty of stories on this in the building trade). The final big difference I can see is the lack of any health screening; the NHS is one of the main benefits in the UK as opposed to other european countries and without any medical tests being performed prior to entry there's obviously a huge loophole there.

[Trigirl]

Do you think we should apply the points system to people from France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc.? Or only to people from new member states?

all of it. i said eu immigration and thats what i meant.

[Jo Jo]

I see. I've just never come across anyone who considered immigration from the original EU states a problem, hence my question.

[dharder]

I see. I've just never come across anyone who considered immigration from the original EU states a problem, hence my question.

Neither have I, and I am an immigrant from an original EU country. It may just be a number thing, if there were 600,000 Swedes coming into the UK, opening Swedish food shops on the high street (or does IKEA count?), maybe people would worry about that immigration as much? Then again, the idea that someone from, say, Germany or Sweden would emigrate to the UK for the benefits or the healthcare is quite funny.

I ususally find debates about immigration really are about race. Oh, people say here to me or in Germany to my partner, but we don't mean YOU when we say we think there are enough immigrants ...(we are both white educated middle class who speak English and German respectively fluently)

When I talk to people in general here, and they start talking about 'us' and 'them' (them being immigrants), they include me in the 'us'. So I think Jo Jo has a very valid point asking about differences between the original versus the new EU member states.

Daniela

[Trigirl]

i don't specifically consider french or german immigration to be a problem. but then i don't specifically consider immigration from the new eu countries to be a problem either.

what i do consider to be a problem is the uk not having control over its borders. i consider not being able to refuse entry to someone simply because they come from france germany or poland instead of new zealand, canada or china to be a problem. to me it makes no sense.

the uk needs immigrants. it has a lot of jobs to fill and as lupin pointed out earlier in this thread the NHS at least (and not just the NHS!) would fall apart without them. i just don't see why immigrants from EU countries should automatically be considered better than those from non-EU countries. i'd much prefer that everyone was given the same chance to live and work in the UK under a fair system that allowed the UK to change its immigration policies to meet changing needs in the country.

by the way the only comment i've made on this thread was specifically about the new points system. it was the immigration system itself i was interested in - and only in that i believe there should be a level playing field for all countries and not just "white european" ones. so if you wish to accuse me of racism (thanks daniela) perhaps you should take the time to discover what i meant first instead of jumping to conclusions.

[dharder]

so if you wish to accuse me of racism (thanks daniela) perhaps you should take the time to discover what i meant first instead of jumping to conclusions.

I don't think I've done that (accuse you personally of being racist), and apologise if that is how it came across, certainly wasn't my intention.

I was thinking more generally of debates about immigration, and the comments made about immigrants from different countries, which often seem to correlate to skin colour or religion. Not specifically your comments, Trigirl, maybe I should have made that clearer.

Daniela

[willsken]

i don't specifically consider french or german immigration to be a problem. but then i don't specifically consider immigration from the new eu countries to be a problem either.

what i do consider to be a problem is the uk not having control over its borders. i consider not being able to refuse entry to someone simply because they come from france germany or poland instead of new zealand, canada or china to be a problem. to me it makes no sense.

the uk needs immigrants. it has a lot of jobs to fill and as lupin pointed out earlier in this thread the NHS at least (and not just the NHS!) would fall apart without them. i just don't see why immigrants from EU countries should automatically be considered better than those from non-EU countries. i'd much prefer that everyone was given the same chance to live and work in the UK under a fair system that allowed the UK to change its immigration policies to meet changing needs in the country.

by the way the only comment i've made on this thread was specifically about the new points system. it was the immigration system itself i was interested in - and only in that i believe there should be a level playing field for all countries and not just "white european" ones. so if you wish to accuse me of racism (thanks daniela) perhaps you should take the time to discover what i meant first instead of jumping to conclusions.

Trigirl has summed up how I feel about the whole process in the UK. I certainly don't see this as a race issue from my point of view and know that people I have spoken to on this issue don't either. There is no control on numbers and I think this is causing problems in some areas in the UK.

[Sam B]

I do agree with Daniela that most people I have met who have anti-immigration feelings in the UK specifically mean some cultures and not others. They don't usually include cultures that are similar to their own.

[willsken]

Yes, I would agree if someone were anti-immigration. I'm not though, I would just like to see more control, no matter where people come from originally.

[liamnrach]

The introduction of a points system for entry to the UK is a fantastic idea, and is one that should have been introduced years ago. I echo some of the thoughts here by saying that it should be extended to include people from all EU countries too. By doing so, the UK (as a country) can not then be accused of favouring one nation over another and would hopefully eliminate the accusation of being racist from the point of view of immigration. Perhaps this would then stem the flow of people coming to the UK who seek only to take advantage of our benefits system? I think it is true to say that immigration is somewhat of a 'regional' issue. There has been a proliferation of immigrants along the south coast (Dover, Folkestone, Ramsgate, Margate), which is slowly working its way further along (Hastings, and now Eastbourne). Many people who live in areas not affected by the influx of immigrants, may not see this as such an important subject.

However, with border control in Europe being what it is; little control with free movement between countries, this will always make it easier for those people who attempt to come to the UK under false pretences (illegal immigrants). It seems to be fairly easy for illegal immigrants to find their way into the UK from France (based on reading news reports etc), but perhaps it would be more difficult if EU border controls were re-established? That is to say that they might be stopped at the first border check-point they arrive at. By the way, I am not advocating a return to the dark days of the cold-war border check points (I have experienced this myself - and it was not pleasant)!! But some form of border control would assist the matter me thinks:yes

Suffice to say that some illegal immigrants flee to the UK in fear of their lives. I suspect that this can be very difficult to prove (or disprove) by the UK authorities. Genuine assylum seekers should be given leave to stay, as long as it can be proven that they would be harmed if they returned.

In summary, this is a subject that invokes great emotion as it strikes at the very heart of ones Nationality. The UK is now a multi-cultural society, more so than any other country I think. In general terms this may make certain people feel less British and accordingly may influence their opinions on who should be allowed into the country.

My opinion is that anyone who will give something to this country in terms of skill-sets, or by doing jobs that UK people just do not want to do, then they should be allowed in. After all, I will be asking the NZ people to accept me when I arrive in NZ: Some of whom will, some of whom wont.......C'est la vie.....:D

Liam

[willsken]

Many people who live in areas not affected by the influx of immigrants, may not see this as such an important subject.


My opinion is that anyone who will give something to this country in terms of skill-sets, or by doing jobs that UK people just do not want to do, then they should be allowed in.
Liam

Exactly, on both counts.

[veronica]

have read this with interest but would like to point out that our foster daughter is a nurse and has worked hard to be one., studying first at uni then specializing.. now she has 8 or so years experience under her belt she is in danger of losing her job to people from overseas who will work for less. and is considering making a move to the private sector. twice since december she has had to reapply for her own job.
IF the govt funded the NHS properly and paid a decent wage to their front line staff then more people would have trained to be nurses and Drs. then we wouldn't have a shortage.

[liamnrach]

have read this with interest but would like to point out that our foster daughter is a nurse and has worked hard to be one., studying first at uni then specializing.. now she has 8 or so years experience under her belt she is in danger of losing her job to people from overseas who will work for less. and is considering making a move to the private sector. twice since december she has had to reapply for her own job.
IF the govt funded the NHS properly and paid a decent wage to their front line staff then more people would have trained to be nurses and Drs. then we wouldn't have a shortage.


You are right of course. The Govt should do alot more to fund the NHS in a more appropriate way so that we can keep hold of our experienced Nurses and Dr's. Especially when most hospitals employ agency staff (at an increased cost) to increase manning to minimum levels. This does seem somewhat counter productive and rather wasteful. I did hear that there is now a surplus of Jnr Doctor's? Alledgedly they have been given the training (at great expense to themselves and the Govt) only to be told that there are now no places for them at Hospitals due to Govt cut-backs? Is this true? No wonder the NHS staff are so demoralised after being treated in such a way.

I have to say that the willingness of the foreign workforce to work for less money is not just a problem associated with the NHS. Being a profit-driven market, companies will do anything in order to reduce costs; wages being one of the obvious starting places.

Anyway, I have babbled on long enough, perhaps this should be a new thread?!:D

[nippa&pippa]

Ok, what about communication problems we have in UK causing by increasing number of immigrants that don't have English language? Like us coming into NZ, we had to prove that we can speak and write english before they allow us enter into NZ, why UK can't? I know there is english courses for immigrant people in UK (if they got enough funds to deal with the increasing number of immigrants) but how many people are prepare to attend?

[Magsnags]

There does seem to be more people leaving where I live (Kent). One neighbour went to Oz last March, my best friend went to NZ in Feb. Another friend who lives in north kent is looking into Oz and I bumped into a lady I haven't seen to speak to for several weeks and she is looking at going to America and flies out for a reccee (and holiday) in July. We are hoping to come out to NZ asap too.
The only thing we all have in common is a young family.
I know the lady who want's to go to America, is worried about secondry education - her son will be starting secondry in September and her little girl starts school next year and the local primary school to her is awful :(

[incredible hulse]

I did hear that there is now a surplus of Jnr Doctor's? Alledgedly they have been given the training (at great expense to themselves and the Govt) only to be told that there are now no places for them at Hospitals due to Govt cut-backs? Is this true? No wonder the NHS staff are so demoralised after being treated in such a way.


My brother in law has qualified as a junior surgeon (after about 8 years training I think) and been looking for a job for 18 months. He's recently got a temporary longtime assignment after going for an interview with 360+ people going for the same role.

[Sam B]

I left the UK mainly because my job in the NHS was highly at risk. I am a speech and language therapist. I want to emphasise that this is not because of immigrant workers but because the NHS is in crisis and SLTs are not exactly valued. Anyway I heard recently that 80% of new graduates in this area are unemployed and many are retraining as teachers as soon as they finish their courses. It is much better here, working for the minestry of Education, I feel valued and there are tonnes of SLT jobs.

[Sam B]

Tia Maria has just let me know I have been spelling Ministry wrong - deep shame!! I work for them so I should know how to spell them! So, please read ministry in my last post... Sorry!

[Sam B]

Look, I've been thinking about it, and I've realised that I've been blinded by my love of Jamie Oliver's homemade minestrone soup you see. Minestry ... minestrone soup ...see what I mean.

[NooDleS]

Look, I've been thinking about it, and I've realised that I've been blinded by my love of Jamie Oliver's homemade minestrone soup you see. Minestry ... minestrone soup ...see what I mean.

Good save! :clap