[John Z]

The safest place to be when I hold a gun is the target - and thats with 6 years of training by the best efforts of Britains military finest. :no

And yes I was issued with a permit for a sub machine gun whilst in the RAF - how scary is that??

Only suitable for the Medical Core really!!!!! :exit

Well, I think it's safe enough for me to invite you for a drink when we both get to NZ! :cheers

Cheers, John.

[Ana&Steve]

The safest place to be when I hold a gun is the target - and thats with 6 years of training by the best efforts of Britains military finest. :no

:p

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

I once used a paint gun. The fence never fully recovered.

Should I be locked up?

Don't answer that.

[willowshouse]

So my whole rambling point is, Americans are largely driven by not being denied anything, but many don't take the time to earn their responsibilities. Also, if we aren't exposed to outside opinions, we never get a chance to question whether we truly believe, as opposed to believing because it's all we've been told.


:nice1 Spot On Ana .. it's not only in America .. there are far too many people in UK whose opinions are simply those of the newspapers. It is far easier to believe what we read than to question it.

Loved the description of the wedding .. we visited 29 Palms on the way here (Bypassed Palm Springs) and met some lovely people - stunning scenery too!

Dawn

[movefromus]

Jo Jo
[QUOTE=Jo Jo;133032]
there is strict screening of army officers and ammunition is stored in sealed boxes and inspected regularly. The rate of households with firearms is actually comparable to that of Canada.
QUOTE]

Check out this BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
"The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training and a mandatory period of service in the Rekrutenschule (the "recruits-school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men still remain part of the militia either in a home guard or reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual keeps his army-issued personal weapon (the Sig 550 5.56x45 mm assault rifle for enlisted personnel, and/or the SIG-Sauer P220 9 mm semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified quantity of government-issued ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unlawful use takes place. The emergency ammunition is the only ammunition that requires accounting for during inspections.[1]"

[Jo Jo]

You're right - what I should have said is the percentage of households with non-military firearms is comparable to that of Canada, i.e. 27%.

http://www.unicri.it/wwk/publications/books/series/understanding/19_GUN_OWNERSHIP.pdf

[Lupin]

But the culture of gun use and ownership in Switzerland is just so different from the US, it's a really weak argument to compare the two. It's clear, even from the quote above that the gun culture is different, in fact the whole culture is so very different that the comparison is quite obsolete.

[Jo Jo]

Exactly. In fact, you have to wonder why anyone who is pro-gun ownership would compare the two since comparing them shows that Americans can't be trusted with guns whereas the Swiss can!

:)

[kelpy]

Exactly. In fact, you have to wonder why anyone who is pro-gun ownership would compare the two since comparing them shows that Americans can't be trusted with guns whereas the Swiss can!

:)

I think it's obvious why pro-gun people would use it as an argument. You've answered your own question.

[movefromus]

Countries with very strict gun control are not less safe, are not run by criminals, have fewer criminals and statistically less crime.

Daniela

That statement is just not true.

Assaults per capita

#6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
#7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people
#8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people
#10 Australia:

Burglaries per capita

#1 Australia: 21.7454 per 1,000 people
#6 New Zealand: 16.2763 per 1,000 people
#7 United Kingdom: 13.8321 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada: 8.94425 per 1,000 people
#13 Switzerland: 8.06303 per 1,000 people
#17 United States: 7.09996 per 1,000 people

Car Thefts per capita
#1 Australia: 6.92354 per 1,000 people
#3 United Kingdom: 5.6054 per 1,000 people
#4 New Zealand: 5.45031 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada: 4.88547 per 1,000 people
#9 United States: 3.8795 per 1,000 people


Rape per capita
#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people

Suicides per capita.
15 24years
#1 New Zealand: 26.7 per 100,000 people
#7 United States: 13.7 per 100,000 people
25-34 years old
#2 New Zealand: 25.1 per 100,000 people
#10 United States: 15.3 per 100,000 people
35-44 years old
#12 United States: 15.3 per 100,000 people
#14 New Zealand: 14.8 per 100,000 people

homicide rate
per 100,000
#14 United States: 9.1
#31 New Zealand: 1.3574

Total crimes per capita.
#2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
#20 Switzerland: 36.1864 per 1,000 people

[dharder]

That statement is just not true.

But how much of the crimes in those statistics involve guns? I mean, an increased number of burglaries in one country, or a higher number of domestic abuse in another don't seem to have anything to do with violent crimes that involve guns.

Crime statistics (well, like all statistics, really) are always difficult to collate and compare, but a quick look at the violent crimes that I could potentially be a victim of to tell me I'm statistically safer in the UK than in the US.

I'd rather have a higher chance of being burgled than shot :)

Daniela

[Nathan]

OK, I just wrote a long reply, but I deleted it.

I don't think most of the stuff going on in US that's mentioned here has anything to do with conservatism or liberalism. Think about it. What does it mean to be conservative? What does it mean to be liberal?

And now I resign from this thread.

[movefromus]

But how much of the crimes in those statistics involve guns? I mean, an increased number of burglaries in one country, or a higher number of domestic abuse in another don't seem to have anything to do with violent crimes that involve guns.

Daniela

I don't know how much those statistics have to do with guns. I've heard numerous instances of people defending themselves with guns. The statistics I posted weren't a statement about guns though, they were in response to the post that said that countries with stricter gun laws had less crime (not just gun related).
Carly

[Tia Maria]

movefromus - where did you get your statistics from?

The suicide one looks interesting, I hadn't realised the rate was so high for NZ. :(

Cheers

Tia

[Lupin]

NZ suicide stats are very grim and here in Hawkes Bay we're in suicide capital of NZ. Doesn't mean you're any the more likley to commit suicide just by virtue of being here though, just shows there's a massive underclass of desperate, hopeless (as in without hope, not useless) people :(

As for crime stats, the only ones I'm interested in when it comes to debating gun ownership are civilian deaths by civilian guns. I'm fairly sure they'll reveal the truth about personal safety in a "right to bear arms" society.

[stu70]

That statement is just not true.

Assaults per capita

#6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
#7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people
#8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people
#10 Australia:

Burglaries per capita

#1 Australia: 21.7454 per 1,000 people
#6 New Zealand: 16.2763 per 1,000 people
#7 United Kingdom: 13.8321 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada: 8.94425 per 1,000 people
#13 Switzerland: 8.06303 per 1,000 people
#17 United States: 7.09996 per 1,000 people

Car Thefts per capita
#1 Australia: 6.92354 per 1,000 people
#3 United Kingdom: 5.6054 per 1,000 people
#4 New Zealand: 5.45031 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada: 4.88547 per 1,000 people
#9 United States: 3.8795 per 1,000 people


Rape per capita
#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people

Suicides per capita.
15 24years
#1 New Zealand: 26.7 per 100,000 people
#7 United States: 13.7 per 100,000 people
25-34 years old
#2 New Zealand: 25.1 per 100,000 people
#10 United States: 15.3 per 100,000 people
35-44 years old
#12 United States: 15.3 per 100,000 people
#14 New Zealand: 14.8 per 100,000 people

homicide rate
per 100,000
#14 United States: 9.1
#31 New Zealand: 1.3574

Total crimes per capita.
#2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
#20 Switzerland: 36.1864 per 1,000 people

Okay please refer to the stats on crimes (http://www.toronto.ca/quality_of_life/safety.htm) in North American Cities. All cities in the USA come out on top in every category of crime. So the point is, their guns do not make them any safer;au contraire the guns make their nation a top scorer in all kinds of crimes.

[aberdian]

Having been involved in a number of these debates over the years, I think I can sum it all up pretty succinctly.

Americans want to own guns and their governnment lets them.
Most of the rest of the world don't want to own guns and their governments don't let them anyway (or at least make it hard).

Statistics can be twisted from both sides.
Gun control is bad and increases crime (US)
Gun control is good and cuts crime (rest of the world)

The two sides will never come together or see each others views as there's nothing rational about the argument, it's all visceral and cultural.

Personally, I'm on the side of gun control, having been held up at gunpoint in the US (Greenspoint, now aka Gunspoint in Houston) and never even having been burgled in the UK despite living in some of the worst areas of London for many years but YMMV, and judging by the replies on here, it certainly does :)

My last words on it.

Ian

[willsken]

NZ suicide stats are very grim and here in Hawkes Bay we're in suicide capital of NZ. Doesn't mean you're any the more likley to commit suicide just by virtue of being here though, just shows there's a massive underclass of desperate, hopeless (as in without hope, not useless) people :(



It's a sad fact but very true. I was talking about this with a fellow teacher the other day as one of my pupils is chronically depressed and is at times suicidal. They seemed to think poverty and distance from a large city is a big part of it. A feeling of being trapped and not having the ability to get away and do the things they dream of (they compared it to the UK and said most youngsters were an hour or so from the excitement of city life). It also seems to something that spreads and once one commits suicide then others follow suit (friends etc) I really don't know any of this for a fact and it is the opinion of someone else but it seemed to make sense when they were talking about it.:no

[Sam B]

I love this debate, and I especially love the way everyone keeps saying it's the last word! Movefromus, you have at least managed to remain v civil despite endless provocation. It has opened my eyes to a completely alien culture. I will probably never even visit the US for a holiday now.

[willowshouse]

I love this debate, and I especially love the way everyone keeps saying it's the last word! Movefromus, you have at least managed to remain v civil despite endless provocation. It has opened my eyes to a completely alien culture. I will probably never even visit the US for a holiday now.

Don't be put off visiting the US .. it has some of the most amazing sights in the world, not to mention some VERY friendly people .. it's a bit like Fawlty Towers ("just don't mention the war" :laugh ) but a truly great experience.

We visited Boston, Niagara, New York, Los Angeles, the Californian Desert, Arizona and the Grand Canyon on the way to NZ - it was fabulous! Have previously been to San Francisco and Las Vegas .. both also fabulous :D

I can honestly say that gun talk never came into it and as visitors we were made very welcome. :yes

Dawn

[wanderingoregonian]

yes, please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.. There are so many incredible things to experience in America - Boston's neighborhoods, the Pacific coast hiway, the volcanoes of the pacific northwest (and its forests, beaches, waterfalls, scenic roads... yeah I love where I'm from), the amazing vibe of various cities and the kindness in rural parts. I am sure there is a part that would suit you (just don't knock on my parents neighbors doors in the next few weeks - they are the ones with guns and attitudes, huge improvement over the meth lab years though:) I am who I am because of growing up in America - and have many fond memories. THere are still wonderful things to be had there, it just wasn't the place for us to start the next phase of our lives - which is something I do greive at times....just look at the number of americans on this forum you share similar views with (such as me and my opinions on ABA:) there are many more of us back home too, even if we feel like we are the minority at times...

[Sam B]

Oh ok then - you've sold it! I'll put it back on my places to visit list! And I know there are lots of Americans who aren't gun-toting weirdos in massive cars but what about how there are some areas where EVERYBODY is a Christian and they all go to those big churches and get shouted at? I'll leave that off my itinerary! (maybe I've been watching too much Louis Theroux' weird weekends and Borat?) I'm really not sure where to put that last apostrophe, but got bored with puzzling over it btw.

[movefromus]

Tia - those stats were from www.nationmaster.com.

[Ana&Steve]

Oh ok then - you've sold it! I'll put it back on my places to visit list! And I know there are lots of Americans who aren't gun-toting weirdos in massive cars but what about how there are some areas where EVERYBODY is a Christian and they all go to those big churches and get shouted at? I'll leave that off my itinerary! (maybe I've been watching too much Louis Theroux' weird weekends and Borat?) I'm really not sure where to put that last apostrophe, but got bored with puzzling over it btw.Yea, just post before you take your trip, so we can all tell you where not to go! Also, try not to go to any trailer parks; besides violence and drugs, you'd have to contend with tornadoes and alien abductions!:D {sorry total stereotype, couldn't resist!}
Ana

[DrPhred]

Don't be put off visiting the US .. it has some of the most amazing sights in the world, not to mention some VERY friendly people .. it's a bit like Fawlty Towers ("just don't mention the war" :laugh ) but a truly great experience.

Dawn

That's the best line about us in the USA I've read. Maybe I'm just a fan of the show, but that does seem to sum it up. Well done!

[Andy-Dee]

I really like the US for holidays - had some fab times in some fab places with fab people.

I like Denny's and Disney and The Melting Pot and San Diego. We got engaged at Yosemite on a road trip - he didn't have a ring so I had an engagment pine cone for a while - very happy days.

I don't like guns or any weapons full stop - but I can't say I ever felt at risk in all the times I've been there, or wherever I've been including New York (Central Park) downtown Miami, San Fran, LA, Las Vegas, Pheonix, Fresno, Philli, Pitsburgh, Charleston etc etc.

I've just always taken the usual precautions of not being alone, concealing any expensive items and keeping a watchful eye out.

I'm not so keen on living there though - but for a number of other reasons other than guns.

[Ana&Steve]

Unfortunately, here's a not uncommon gun ownership danger...
http://www.wnbc.com/news/13410177/detail.html

follows what I said about people getting jumpy and paranoid.:(
Ana

[willowshouse]

We got engaged at Yosemite on a road trip - he didn't have a ring so I had an engagment pine cone for a while - very happy days.


Aaaah .. a lovely 'soft' thought to start the day - I'm off to hug something/one :D