[katandbob]

Dammit, I can't get away from this thread. I don't understand some of the hostility here.
SwissMiss, I said or implied nothing critical about Asian immigrants, or their work habits, I merely observed that some of them have difficulty adjusting to a society very different from the ones they have come from. It's a fact.
I recently downloaded for my wife the whole NZ national anthem, which I must shamefacedly confess I had never read fully before. One of her Asian classes had a whale of a time studying and analysing it for an entire lesson - they were fascinated.
Going right back to my original post: my understanding of our history is that for most of it, say well into the 1960s, NZ despite its agrarian base was seen by many migrants as a land of prosperity and opportunity, a place that would give them a chance to "get ahead." (And for British working class migrants, it was also an escape from the class system, a land where "Jack was as good as his master." The upper class, right from the start, had difficulty attracting and keeping domestic servants - Jack far preferred to go off and start his own farm or business. Perhaps the origin of the "G'day mate" ethos, but ancient history now.)
What I was wondering about was what appeared to be a bit of a gradual "sea change," especially in recent years - NZ being seen more as a refuge or haven from the stresses of the crowded modern world. Still a land of opportunity, but perhaps a different sort of opportunity?
Certainly some of the posts on this thread seem to confirm that, don't they?
And, does this "sea change" have implications for our future? (That's your future, not mine. I won't be around to see it.)
OK, Fire At Will.
No no, aim at Will, not me.

:D Don't take it to heart - isn't it funny how different folks read different tones from a post (and I don't take your comments personally BTW - I try not to whinge too much LOL)

since you like to read I thought I would post this link http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-ArnFart.html I found it when I was searching for information on emigrants stories. I found it very interesting to read the comments of the early settlers on the home they left (I recognised a lot of the area where I was from) and also their views on their new homes - in NZ.

keep your views coming, PS - I live on 8acres - but don't think its the Rural backwater I first thought I would live in (when you work you need to get there - so we compromised) we are 10km from Bluff and 18km from Invercargill. I have the Bluff Hwy just across the railway line, so I don't class that as rural backwater (I would love to live in a valley with tons of hills to ride in - just need that lottery win - then I can buy my 3000h farm!:laugh )

Kat (wishing I was cattle mustering instead of Invoice processing!):exit

[willsken]

JoHnH.

I think whats happening to this thread is the same that has happened to many threads on many forums - the misinterpretation (by some posters) of the written word.

I am forced to agree that I too have noticed what I thought to be an amount of hostility towards some of your postings, however we are all entitled to our opinions and I do believe that all opinions have value.

What does concern me however, is that this thread is veering away from your original questions concerning why people come to NZ.

Well, you seem to have answered you own questions by stating in your last post........... ' (NZ) seen more as a refuge or haven from the stresses of the crowded modern world. Still a land of opportunity, but perhaps a different sort of opportunity?'

That statement will mean different things to different people, but it seems pretty spot-on and a good enough reason to me.

Take care,


Julie

xx

Spot on for me to. :nice1

[Sam B]

I like this thread. I like it when we all bicker!

[katandbob]

JoHnH.

I think whats happening to this thread is the same that has happened to many threads on many forums - the misinterpretation (by some posters) of the written word.

I am forced to agree that I too have noticed what I thought to be an amount of hostility towards some of your postings, however we are all entitled to our opinions and I do believe that all opinions have value.

What does concern me however, is that this thread is veering away from your original questions concerning why people come to NZ.

Well, you seem to have answered you own questions by stating in your last post........... ' (NZ) seen more as a refuge or haven from the stresses of the crowded modern world. Still a land of opportunity, but perhaps a different sort of opportunity?'

That statement will mean different things to different people, but it seems pretty spot-on and a good enough reason to me.

Take care,


Julie

xx

Yer your right Julie,
Maybe they don't have anything better to do other than 'bickering'

sad really -:exit
off to go get my blindfold for the firing squad:laugh .

[hball]

I see John's posting from a different point of view!

IMHO he is pointing out that previous generations of European immigrants to NZ came to escape the class system/poverty of their home countries. They worked extremely hard in this isolated outpost and through their struggle we have inherited the NZ of today.

Now it would seem that northern hemisphere immigration is based not on the desire to work hard and create further community/individual wealth, but simply to escape from the 'rat race' and enjoy an easier and less stressful pace here. I could be wrong, but I think the point he is raising is where is NZ heading if we are not willing to continue the hard work of the past? Will we suffer economically and socially? Will we simply become a destination of beaches and scenery for a more affluent tourist? Or will the mantle of progress be taken up by those of other nationalities/ethnicities who are leaving their country of origin for the same reasons our forefathers did.

And if the latter is the case, will NZ move in a different direction and with a different face than that envisaged by most of us? I find his comments that we are the future quite sobering.

[Pip]

John H,

look on the bright side, you've created some interesting discussion points (albeit perhaps some of them unintentionally).

From my perspective, I've found it quite enlightening and have also realised that when I'm constantly being asked in job interviews "Why I came to NZ" and am giving the " better work/life balance response", - I realise that this could now potentially (note the word potentially!) be interpreted by the odd interviewer as 'looking for an easier/cushier job', which is absolutely not the case - as with others on this forum, we were looking to escape two hour commutes each way, thereby doing four hours a day just on travelling on top of a hectic pressurised london job!

Therefore, the learning that I am going to take from this, is that I need to make sure there is absolutely no room for doubt/ambiguety and the interviewer understands 100% that I want to be in a position where travelling is not wearing me down to the extent that its reducing my productivity/harming my health and preventing me as working as hard and effectively as I am able to, and that I am completely committed to giving my all to making that role a success!

I've always believed in this forum as being a great place to ask questions, let off steam occasionally (often because many of us have not had time to make friends in person, so this may be the only outlet we have!) and learn from other peoples experiences/suggestions and IMHO everyone is welcome! You're also not the first to unconciously set off a heated debate and I can confidently say, that you won't be the last!

[zardell]

From my perspective, I've found it quite enlightening and have also realised that when I'm constantly being asked in job interviews "Why I came to NZ" and am giving the " better work/life balance response", - I realise that this could now potentially (note the word potentially!) be interpreted by the odd interviewer as 'looking for an easier/cushier job', which is absolutely not the case - as with others on this forum, we were looking to escape two hour commutes each way, thereby doing four hours a day just on travelling on top of a hectic pressurised london job!

Therefore, the learning that I am going to take from this, is that I need to make sure there is absolutely no room for doubt/ambiguety and the interviewer understands 100% that I want to be in a position where travelling is not wearing me down to the extent that its reducing my productivity/harming my health and preventing me as working as hard and effectively as I am able to, and that I am completely committed to giving my all to making that role a success!





Yes hball, I can see your point, but I also see Pips point of view too.

It's a lot to do with an individuals definition of the terms ' work vs life balance' and 'hard work(er)'

Isn't it amazing that although we all speak the same language, an amazing amount of meaning is lost in translation.

Good luck with your interviews Pip.

Julie

xx

[Nathan]

It perplexes me that someone could presume that people who have worked to get ahead, either through dedication to their work, education, or both and/or more, and have crentials adequate to meet NZIS requirements would suddenly become a bunch of lazy bums upon arrival in NZ!! It is also a wonderment that 'getting out of the rat race' is somehow construed as a desire to sit on the front porch and watch the world go by. And lumping a whole group of people into such a catagory and putting then down sounds like..... ...sounds like I better have another cup of coffee.

[Sam B]

Yeah, I'm kind of with you there Nathan although probably not so strongly felt (we exchanged on the house yesterday and I'm MUCH calmer now). Most skilled migrants have worked hard, got qualifications, lots of experience and the emigration process itself is a test of dedication and determination, so just because I like to watch dolphins at the w/e doesn't mean I'm not going to contribute to society!

[Belmont Babes]

SamB I do love your postings. I completely agree with you re: immigration procedures. I have never worked so hard and with such dedication yet still with no guarantees of success. My family have absolutely every intention of living as a Kiwi and working damn hard, contributing in every way possible.

[JoHnH]

"Most skilled migrants have worked hard, got qualifications, lots of experience and the emigration process itself is a test of dedication and determination, so just because I like to watch dolphins at the w/e doesn't mean I'm not going to contribute to society!"
Yeah, OK, I think I've got to concede there, hadn't quite seen it from that point of view. What you're saying, seems to me, is that NZ's stringent, perhaps overly stringent, entry policy ensures that mainly the "best and brightest" make it here. And also perhaps, in view of the deliberate pursuit of that "work/life balance," the sanest. That's a refreshing thought!
Of course, down here, much is made of the Gallipoli legend as part of our foundation mythology. But I remember reading somewhere that a remarkably high proportion of the original ANZACs, both Aussie and Kiwi, were in fact first generation immigrants, born mostly in the UK. Like Simpson of "the man with a donkey" fame, I believe.
So despite the occasional "whinge," NZ's future is really in the best of hands?

[hball]

I don't think it was ever the intention of this thread to imply that anyone here was lazy - at least I hope not!

Perhaps the following may give a little background to my own thoughts... I work (and have done for many years) in residential construction in Auckland. By far and away the majority of my clients now are of Indian or Asian (mainly Chinese) ethnicity and they have a completely different attititude to their new life in NZ then, lets say, mine. They have no interest in the beaches or scenery other than for financial gain, they buy quality houses to rent to other immigrants while living in low-socio areas themselves. Even young newly weds expect to live in the family home while taking out mortgages for the above, to benefit of the whole family.

The prime requirement for a Chinese migrant is for a home that will accommodate three generations. That way the middle generation can work all hours God made while the grandparents are the care givers to the youngest generation. The childen are encouraged to do well at school, to study at home, and in a lot of cases work after school in the family business.

More and more businesses in Auckland are having signage printed in both European and Chinese script - some even are only in Chinese. If you have visited the Auckland Home Show in the last few years you will have noticed that more and more exibitors are Asian, and their products are very stylish and drastically cheaper than the traditional product. The company I work for is seriously looking at moving some of our buying in this direction simply to be able to compete at market level.

And, while at first it was unusual, a major construction site in Manukau now employs only Asian scaffolders, builders, plastes, tilers etc, and it is surreal to be on site and hear only Cantonese spoken by workers wearing smog masks!!

I shop at a Chinese supermarket simply because they are open all hours, have excellent quality product and it is cheap! The fact that I have absolutely no idea of what some of the items on the shelves are for is irrelevent!! My son has had a new state-of-the-art kitchen fitted with granite benchtops for 8K from a Chinese supplier. The painters we used were Asian - good, cheaper than their NZ counterpart and they could do the job when we wanted. The list goes on.

While this all may seem of no interest to this thread, Asian immigration here is greater than that from the UK, and projected (here in Auckland) to produce a higher number of residents that other more traditional ethnic groups in the next census and will at least double in size with projections on ongoing increases.

And while this may seem of no consequence to those outside Auckland, one quarter of all residents in NZ live in Auckland, and that these citizens will vote. (And probably for Helen who amonst other things wants closer ties to Asia and less affiliation with Mother England!)

Sorry for long (political) post. And I hope that it is taken in context, as a viewpoint on a different groups expectation of NZ and not as an anti-Asian bleat.

[swissmissdesigner]

Hball: this is a very interesting post and I really enjoy it..
Seem to me asians life style don't change , no matter where they move.
By the way: I also love to shopping in the Chinai town!

[MB]

Hi, everyone! We have not posted for a while, but I wanted to say a few words on this thread before we post a more general update.

I think that:

If someone is coming to NZ for a more laid back lifestyle, they might well need to be very active to make that lifestyle happen. I point that out because it is a bit counter-intuitive: one might feel it natural to have to work actively at, e.g., 'getting ahead', but that gaining a laid back lifestyle would probably just be stumbled upon or picked up easily. Not necessarily.

And why this is so is where I'd like to address JoHnH's original questions directly. JoHn, from my perspective -- I've said it here before -- incoming NZ migrants who have a strong internal, creative, mental life might be at least one of the explanatory 'missing links' for which you seem to be searching.
That is, folks of that sort tend, at significant times at least, to value stepping aside from clatter; from too-rich tapestries; from chatter; and from busy-for-busy's-sake-ness.
Combined with this, these folks will tend to be very accepting of what might be slightly patronizingly called 'making do' (e.g., acceptance of chilly NZ houses!:) )

Why? Because families and individuals like this put far more value on, to name just a few examples:
- the sheer fun of making headway and making mistakes
- making day-to-day observations and doing mental 'journal-keeping' or 'impression-recording'
- the challenges, serendipity and charms of meeting new people
- just plain plying their own crafts or skills in a new and agreeable environment
- etc.

The last of the named examples is v.important: some folks with this robust internal life I'm on about might, for whatever reason, just want to engage their life in a quieter or simpler external place. I have a little evidence, but more than that I just feel that this pattern occurs a lot.
Now, NZ really does have relatively few people, and the combined charm of being able more often to make connections between Kiwis (put bluntly, lots of people here sem to know each other, or are friends of friends, wherever you go) while also not feeling so overwhelmed by sheer numbers, can be very attractive to some people. It makes the scale of NZ feel fairly manageable.

What does all this have to with actively making the laid-back lifestyle? Well, chiefly because folks of the sort I'm describing will pretty happily embrace many of the roughs of NZ life along with the smooths. At the very least they will see, e.g., coaxing a wood stove into heating more than one room as an adventure or a challenge, but more likely they simply can see past the drudge of it because their eyes are on experiences and satisfactions that are just beyond (but inclusive of) such daily stuff that others might find irksome. Moreover, it's quite likely that in many cases that focus is on just making ends meet, or on carving out that 4-day-week-or-freelance lifestyle. But that's fine with them, because as long as they have some food, a box of wine, a nice outdoors and phone/Internet service, their internal life fills so many of the other gaps.

Finally, let me be clear that this is no ivory tower, dreamy stuff. Such folks might be therapists, writers, teachers, doctors, plumbers, whatever. It's more a way of living life, of what the 1980s used to love to call someone's way of interfacing with the world, that I'm on about.

:nice1

[zardell]

Welcome back Matt.

Your posts have been missed - well, they have by me.

Looking forward to your update.

Julie

xx

[MB]

Welcome back Matt.

Your posts have been missed - well, they have by me.

Looking forward to your update.

Julie

xx

Cheers, Julie! Bless you. I do feel very shabby about not having updated the blog, especially.
We have been pretty busy. Been a little bit of a challenging time (slightly strange, even, LOL - I'll post about what we have been up to) but we are enjoying things. Hope you're doing well.
Cheers again,
Matt.

[Hannah]

Just my 2 cents worth to this extremely long thread...I think it does us all good to stop, once in a while, and consider how lucky we are to have the choice of emigrating from one pretty good country to another. I'm not aware of any on this forum who are emigrating to New Zealand to avoid war (here I mean war in your own country, not 'war on terror'), or to avoid persecution due to your beliefs, religion, race or whatever. Most, if not all of us, sit for a year or more pondering over whether we will have a 'better quality of life' in another area, whether we'll survive on a bit less salary, whether the education system is more relaxed, whether people are more or less laid back, etc. Many of us, myself included, lived (or are living) relatively comfortable and privileged lives (in relation to many in other parts of the world) which is what gives us the ability to see emigration as an option rather than a necessity. How lucky we are.
One of our local Chinese dairy owners opens his shop at 6.30am and works in it solidly, every day, until 8.30pm with his wife helping much of the time. I met his wife at the beach a few months back - she had lived in our road for a year and had been to the beach just three times due to 'so much work' . Every time I see that guy and his wife they have a smile on their face. At the same time I hear people moan locally about the Chinese buying up all the dairies, and yet they are happy to use them when they need some bread at 8pm! This dairy owner told me he left China because he and his family were very poor and he wanted his children to have a better chance than he did. He says New Zealand is good to his family, and for his family. What a wonderful man - I have the utmost respect for the total commitment he has given in leaving his country to work 14 hours a day to his children can have a 'better chance than he did'. I wonder too if going back to China is even a possibility for this family? Is that a choice they even have?
Not a day in my life goes by when I remind myself how lucky I am to have the choices I do. Only when you lose those choices do you realise how precious they are. It's not about where you live, or why you live there, it's about having the choice. And when you have choice its great to be able to exercise that choice. If it doesn't work out in NZ, you can go back, you can even come back to NZ again or try somewhere else. Your reasons for doing so are your own - there are no 'right' or 'wrong' reasons for choosing NZ, and the reasons it does or does not work out for people are their reasons, again they are as personal as the people we each are.
Sadly for many the luxury of choice is not there.
hannah

[zardell]

What a wonderful post Hannah with a message that we should all remember - how privileged are we to have choices.

Well said.

Julie

xx

[Sam B]

Hannah, I really agree. 2 months before we left Cornwall, I went on a home visit to a family who had 5 children under 5 and were living in the most awful rental accommodation which consisted of a living room, a kitchen and 2 bedrooms with a small backyard. Their son had a speech and language difficulty but this was the least of their problems, they were heavily in debt, their kids all fought all day long mostly because of the issues with space and the mother had severe post-natal depression.

They deperately needed a bigger house, but because they were in private rented accommodation (as opposed to council) they had no chance of getting a bigger house through the council, and they couldn't afford to move to a bigger rental house as rental property in Cornwall is often v expensive.

They were a lovely family, and when I said I wouldn't be able to see the anymore they were so excited for me to hear that I was moving to NZ. I felt so sad for them, their choices were nil - they couldn't even move down the road, but I could just up sticks and move to the other side of the world, thanks to my good education and my qualifications etc. Life really isn't fair.

[nick w]

hi interesting posts - we live in norfolk uk and thinking of moving to NZ within 2 years. You'd think rural norfolk - peaceful and plum wine, but it's not like that at all.......our little town has doubled in size in 10 years, everywhere you have to queue, there are fights at night, gangs roam the streets, people don't make eye contact anymore, vandals and litter are everywhere, card skimming is rife, you work 12 hours a day and are so shattered at the end of it, that you crash out in the evenings and can't be bothered to do anything. Weekends come and spend all your time doing all the things you haven't done all week and its invariably raining and if you decide to go out anywhere then it'll take hours to get there, it'll be crowded and expensive......the idle backwater lifestyle is what all what all Brits dream of!

[Nick88]

We came here for the ability to set up a business that we would not even be able to dream of doing in the UK. I pay myself the same money I earned 15 years ago, cos we plough everything back into the business. In compensation I work from home and I see my kids far more than my father saw me. I look at a beautiful view all day (not just my wife, but the scenery), and I can please myself when it comes to time off.

NZ is far from perfect. You just need to decide if the pluses are more important to you than the minuses.

The only advice I would give is try to not arrive penniless, a financial cushion is a very useful thing to have here. Plus stay flexible for the first year at least, you cannot predict where you will live etc from the UK. Don't be too quick to lock yourself into a job and a property.

[Belmont Babes]

Thanks for that advice nick88.

[MB]

an individuals definition of the terms ' work vs life balance' and 'hard work(er)'

Just a few words on our own particular situation, for what it's worth:

It was important to us that at least one of us be with our little boy as much as possible in his early years, even if we 'lost' money because of it. (Quite apart from any other reason for this, one of the alternatives to this policy -- private daycare -- would have called for a big jump in our own typical family income to become viable).

When we came to NZ we more or less swapped roles, with me being the main stay-at-home parent for over two years now.

I think that it has worked okay. Our goal re. our son was a big focus for us, so, even though I often think that I could (and fiscally should) have tried harder to squeeze in much more part-time work, we are now just days away from his fifth birthday and we have done what we intended. I'm really pleased about that.

From now, though, we intend that our overall balance and routine will change. When he is at school most of the day I hopefully will be at work in a job, and my wife will still work. We do not, and did not, have a lot of money, and our move to NZ over the past few years plus our rather mono-minded policy re. our lad, has seen us suffer a bit financially. In years when, given our ages, we should have been contributing solidly to retirement funds, etc., we started afresh in NZ and cut our income. Also, while we have been basically kinda responsible, we have found it very hard to discipline ourselves absolutely to 'pasta and tinned tomatoes' every night, so our expenditure has not reduced as aggressively (given our income) as perhaps it should.

Anyway, I guess one thing to discuss as part of the move to NZ is whether there are any practices, goals or principles for your family that -- if you let them slide because of other considerations* -- you would feel very demoralized about. Really talk about this up front, and say what's on your mind. Things can be challenging when you're setting up in NZ, so big misunderstandings and disillusionments that you might have been able to prevent with some communication early on, can be very hard to take.

Be honest if something is really valuable to you, and be honest early. :nice1

(*= I know this begs lots of questions, and that things sometimes just aren't at all easy in practice, but my main point here is about at least identifying principles or ideals up front, to see what can be done).

[Nick88]

MB, it is a real shame you are leaving, I would have liked to have met, I agree with just about everything of yours I have read on these forums.

We left SE England because my wife was getting broody, and I knew that our chances of affording a 3 bed house on my income alone was impossible. We came here with some money behind us and continued to work and save (yes, pasta and tom sauce was on the menu alot!) so that when our kids did arrive we could afford to throttle back and spend their early years with them. We did not earn big money, but we found ways to live cheaply and save money that was invested well. Our household income is WELL below the national average.

Constantly living frugally can be a real drag sometimes, but here are compensations, mostly in the time I spend with my children and a lack of stress. For some people these are not enough, you just need to decide before you leave if they are.

[Joanne100]

what an amazing thread ! Im now late for work!
yep i work, hard too!! i didnt work in the UK i wouldnt have let my kids walk themselves home from school for one.
I wouldnt let anyone down the UK and i will always want England to win the football, but do i still want to be there, NO WAY:exit
Joanne

[MB]

MB, it is a real shame you are leaving, I would have liked to have met, I agree with just about everything of yours I have read on these forums.

Nick, you kindly made a comment like that a few days ago on another thread, and I'm very grateful... and pleased that my waffle sometimes makes at least a bit of sense!:laugh I really enjoy your posts, too: they tend to be a lot more concise than do mine!

Maybe we can all meet for a beer or coffee one day. That'd sure be nice.

I was interested to read about your family and your strategies. I'm reassured, in a sense, to read about your income being below the national average. So is ours. Funnily enough I was just chatting with a pal in the kitchen, and I was hinting that a combo of things -- our planned move back to the US; our policy re. our son and how near he is to his 5th birthday; some minor health grumbles; washed-out feeling, etc. -- have made me nowhere near as vigilant as I should be recently when it comes to contributing financially. I feel tired a lot. For now I want to negotiate the next few weeks or months, then hopefully I/we can start afresh. As to spending, there have been many months when I have looked at our online statement and felt ill at how much we get through, mostly on 'normal' spends such as food, petrol, phone pre-pay, a few beers, etc. Thousands, sometimes, and we sure don't buy many clothes or halfway big-ticket items. But hopefully we will learn as we go, and improve where that needs to happen.:nice1

[Nick88]

Stop it , Matt, people will start talking! I would like to meet for a beer sometime if we get the chance, I do live quite a way away, though.

As Joanne said there is no way I would want to go back to the UK, we still have relatives there and they seem to struggle much more than us, without the consolation of the lovely environment we are surrounded by.

I have to make a bit of an admission now. We are intending to leave NZ too in the next 5 years. We are going to build up the business so that the book value gives a good representation of the work we have put in and then we will sell up and leave. I have very badly itchy feet and having spent nearly 10 years in NZ is about as long as I have been able to manage anywhere. There really is no logical reason other than that. We live in a lovely place, on a wonderful block of land, in a nice house. I just can't help myself.

[MB]

Stop it , Matt, people will start talking!

:laugh :laugh :laugh I know. A simple "Cheers, Nick" would have met the case.