[JoHnH]

G'day. I'm a Kiwi who stumbled across this forum and have become rather addicted to reading it. If I may ask a question:
I find interesting the constant comparisons with the UK in the areas of cost and choice of goods, level of wages, home heating, and so on.
I think of the 1930s poem "Home Thoughts" by Denis Glover.
"I do not dream of Sussex Downs
Or quaint old England's
Quaint old towns
I think of what may yet be seen
In Johnsonville and Geraldine."
Eighty years on, the answer seems to be "not a lot." I don't know either place, but I assume they are typically NZ - safe, peaceful, quiet, but nothing world-shattering.
Your (and my) ancestors planned a "better Britain in the South Seas." But NZ never had the industrial base to become a major nation. The first Labour Government's vision of a "cradle to grave Welfare State" is long gone, sunk on the rocks of economic reality.
In terms of per capita GDP we're now officially a fairly poor country, and likely to remain so. Despite the Internet and all that, a bit of a backwater, in fact?
I don't seem to see this reflected in your descriptions of your planning.
Who made a conscious decisions - OK, what'll we do with the rest of our lives (and our kid's lives)? I know, let's go and live in a pretty backwater, safe, semi-idyllic, well out of the mainstream?

[The Hodges]

Hi JohnH

Thanks for that thought. The whole idea of this forum is to give advise to people that are moving or who have moved so they know what to expect when they arrrive and to make sure they do not put themselves through all of the expense and heartache of leaving family and friends just to find out when they arrive that it is not for them. We try and be has honest and open as possible with our own experiences to make sure that other people know that it is not going to be like the UK and we have to except that things are the way they are. We dont expect it any other way. We have traded in the way we have lived our lives in the UK for the QUALITY of life in NZ. Thats why we are all here!

[marcia]

we made a decision to get out of the rat race!

My husband had been running his own compnay (very successfully!) for 12 years, we had a lovely home, nice holidays, friends and family, a busy social life, stockcar racing, but between the months of April to October when Kev was at his busiest, the kids could go a week without seeing him, he was up and off at the crack of dawn and not back till it was dark and the kids were sound asleep! (me too sometimes!)

Kevs dad passed away at only 59, very suddenly, a year off retiring, and it really made us stop and think, what are we chasing around like lunatics for and not spending time with the kids, there has to be more to life.

So for us living the quiet life was a choice we made, ok our kids may want to travel overseas in later years, but that is their choice, at least there will be family members in the uk, and friends in Holland who they can 'bum' a bed from!:D

We haven't come here to earn mega bucks, in fact Kevs wage is only what he used to pay one of the young lads who worked for him. We worked hard in the Uk and have no mortgage here, so as long as the money Kev brings in covers our day to day costs with no dipping into the savings, we will be happy.

I'm not trying to cause an argument here, but have you lived here in NZ all your life, its pretty fast and furious out there in the uk, try living there and you may see why so many of us are happy to live a quieter life over here!:nice1

[The Hodges]

Well said Marcia:clap

I relate to your post completley. My OH used to work in London and leave the house at 7.00pm and I would sometimes be collecting him from the station 9.00/10.00 pm and he would still need to have his dinner. He was also travelling on the underground on 7/7.

We have all come here for a reason but mainly for QUALITY of life and not QUANTITY.

Clare

[zardell]

:clap :clap :clap


Spot on Marcia - quality of life is where it's at.

Julie

xx

[JoHnH]

Marcia:
No argument, I've lived in NZ most of my life beause I like living in a semi-idyllic backwater. My question was, do prospective immigrants understand and accept sufficiently what they are probably coming to?
Our ancestors were lured here by fancy New Zealand Company prospectuses, and found themselves living in raupo huts in the bush.
I guess unheated draughty houses are the modern equivalent.

[Jo Jo]

Who made a conscious decisions - OK, what'll we do with the rest of our lives (and our kid's lives)? I know, let's go and live in a pretty backwater, safe, semi-idyllic, well out of the mainstream?

Me! I did!

If it's semi-idyllic, I'll be happy.

It's funny, my family keep asking me why I don't just move out of London if I'm not happy, but I can't imagine living anywhere in the UK apart from London. So my only choice is to go half-way round the world...

[urban78]

Hiya John,

My OH, who is a kiwi read your thread and asked me to post on it :D They have lived in NZ all their life, apart from 2.5yrs in London on their OE. My OH could not extend their stay in the UK due to visa issues and to be honest they were really dissapointed as we both had wanted to stay there longer. However upon returning to NZ -Auckland- (with me in tow :p ) OH says there's nowhere better than home and in hindsight is extremely happy we didn't stay in the UK in the end!

Of course there are things we both continue to compare from the UK (mainly price of food and variety of products). I'm also glad I made the move, there's been a change in lifestyle that has suited me for the best: I walk to work (in London I was crammed in the tube), able to go to the beach (weather permitting!), bought a car, have found a job here that suits me perfectly (even though I make slightly less money than in the UK but the benefits of it far outweigh that). The only thing I miss from London is public transport ;)

Hope this gives you a little bit of an idea where we come from :)

Jen

G'day. I'm a Kiwi who stumbled across this forum and have become rather addicted to reading it. If I may ask a question:
I find interesting the constant comparisons with the UK in the areas of cost and choice of goods, level of wages, home heating, and so on.
I think of the 1930s poem "Home Thoughts" by Denis Glover.
"I do not dream of Sussex Downs
Or quaint old England's
Quaint old towns
I think of what may yet be seen
In Johnsonville and Geraldine."
Eighty years on, the answer seems to be "not a lot." I don't know either place, but I assume they are typically NZ - safe, peaceful, quiet, but nothing world-shattering.
Your (and my) ancestors planned a "better Britain in the South Seas." But NZ never had the industrial base to become a major nation. The first Labour Government's vision of a "cradle to grave Welfare State" is long gone, sunk on the rocks of economic reality.
In terms of per capita GDP we're now officially a fairly poor country, and likely to remain so. Despite the Internet and all that, a bit of a backwater, in fact?
I don't seem to see this reflected in your descriptions of your planning.
Who made a conscious decisions - OK, what'll we do with the rest of our lives (and our kid's lives)? I know, let's go and live in a pretty backwater, safe, semi-idyllic, well out of the mainstream?

[zardell]

My question was, do prospective immigrants understand and accept sufficiently what they are probably coming to?






In some instances, probably not. No matter how much research one does, talking the talk is nothing like walking the walk.


I remember reading somewhere, something about 'Come to New Zealand and Live the Dream', so I suppose some people are still being 'lured' here by the thought of their interpretation of 'the Dream'.

To me, this forum is about making would-be immigrants more aware of our everyday lives here (all different lives, all different people/circumstances) in order to help them make a more educated decision.

Unfortunately, if for some, that means turning their 'Dream' into more realistic terms and they don't like what they read, then so be it - as long as we are truthful and say it as we see it then that's OK. One man's meat etc........

Having said that, how can anyone with a modicum of common sense make a life changing decision by what they read on a forum ??

Julie

xx

[thepiesleys]

Having said that, how can anyone with a modicum of common sense make a life changing decision by what they read on a forum ??

Bang on.

Interesting post from johnH - being a kiwi with an obvious grasp of his sensibilities. I wish I had read that before I came out. I like it here, I love the climate and the outdoor oppourtunities available to me and my family. But as someone once posted on here - same crap - different country. And as johnh put it I am living in the modern equivalent of that raupo hut in the bush. It's a chalet that has more draughts than a draughty thing.

Prospective emigrees - take note of this thread as it's all interesting stuff, oh and one last observation for me - a slow pace of life out here for me means that there is not as much to do.

Dan

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

All the above is worthwhile, interesting and useful commentary. Surely, though, it's inevitable that anyone moving from A to B, whether it be from Birmingham to Bradford or Hamstead to Hamilton is going to compare the two places. A healthy real world view of those differences is the information that is vital to others looking to make a similar move, particularly if it is over great distances. That is the point of this forum.

Also it should be noted that the British way is to enjoy a bit of a whinge and a moan about those differences, in a light hearted manner (it keeps us sane). You'll notice that those who do point out the differences are still happy to live with them, also that they are generally around things of little real significance to the ability to enjoy a happy and fulfilling lifestyle. If anyone is going to have a hard time dealing with, say, the inability to source Walkers crisps then they're probably not going to be happy here. Better to know that before you uproot and make a mistake.

My house here is cold. Do I wish it wasn't? of course. Does it make me think British homes are better constructed and suited to their environemt? yes. Does it make me consider leaving NZ and returning home? Not on your nelly.

Your points are well noted JohnH and well presented but I wonder if, possibly, you've missed the point that the enormous value the experiences of those posting here has for those in the various stages of their move here.

[Sam B]

"Pretty back water, well out of the mainstream" --- YES PLEASE!!

Got it in one, that's exactly what we wanted. We already tried to get it in the UK by moving from Nottingham to Cornwall, but even dear old Cornwall was full of litter and tourists. And there was NO way of getting away from the UK's war on terror. Every day in the UK I was stuck with our foreign policy, war in Iraq and the deep shame I felt by the association with it. Too many people in too small a place, crowded, polluted, consumerist.

Don't get me wrong, I do love England in many ways, and the main push factor for me was redundancy from the NHS, not hatred of the UK. But the dream, for me, is wide empty spaces, less consumerism and no association with a war I opposed.

The only thing I miss is my friends (GOD I miss them) and France.

[swissmissdesigner]

To me, this forum is about making would-be immigrants more aware of our everyday lives here (all different lives, all different people/circumstances) in order to help them make a more educated decision.


this is the botton line ,well said!
thanks Julie!

[thepiesleys]

Interesting post from johnH - being a kiwi with an obvious grasp of what he is talking about - a new zealander must know new zealand eh. I wish I had read that before I came out. I like it here, I love the climate and the outdoor oppourtunities available to me and my family. But as someone once posted on here - same crap - different country. It is almost ineviatable (especially with a young family that you will recreate the same sort of daily life you had elsewhere. And as johnh put it I am living in the modern equivalent of that raupo hut in the bush. It's a chalet that has more draughts than a draughty thing - but the wood burner sorts it out once it's on the go.

Prospective emigrees - take note of this thread as it's all interesting stuff, oh and one last observation for me - a slow pace of life out here for us normally means that we can not find much to do that we can afford, or have the inclination to want to do. Dan.

hi sue here, hijaking Dan's thread!!

NZ can be described as a "backwater' and out of the mainstream, to some this will conjure up a romantic ideal to others when reality kicks in ( as it has with us) it means - feeling lost, displaced, left out, reinventing the wheel in a number of ways, and feeling put out to grass too early!

Everything "naturally" in NZ is stunningly beautiful, but NZ society, has , as been said before, all the trappings (good and bad) of any other more developed or populated countries. One can have a better life in NZ if one can afford to - like Dan said diff. place, same **** .

I hope the tone of this post is not too negative like Dan said we do like it here in NZ but just not enough to want to stay long term - NZ will always be special to us, but just not home.

Oh and another thing to consider, do you really know yourself as well as you think!!?? I wholeheartedly felt the slower pace of life was what i and us a family wanted and needed, but i have learned a lot ablout myself and my kids i realise now that the noisy, busy, highspirited, bunch we are IS what we are and the "out of the mainstream" in a backwater" lifestyle actually doesn't sit well for us. In bed by 9.00 are you kidding!!

Each to his own.
Sue

[Lupin]

We knew what we were heading to, in fact we picked a backwater in a backwater iyswim. It depends on your previous lifestyle. If you live in the city and are out and about making use of city offerings reguarly then you're quite likely to miss that in NZ, unless you head to one of the big four, even if you do crave a quiet life.

I've met two unhappy people here who I'm fairly sure came here believing themselves to be moving to a UK outer suburb or something!

[wiki]

There's an old saying: "it's not where you go to, it's where you come from that counts"

In other words terms like "backwater" are entirely dependent on the sort of place you're coming from.

I live in a lovely Yorkshire village - but it's hardly a bustling cosmopolitan place. I can think of a lot more exciting and developed places in NZ. Then again, if I still lived in Manchester or Leeds, then even Auckland would seem a calmer and sedate option ... it's horses for courses, and what is one man's backwater is another man's paradise.

And to prove that point - I'm heading back to Southland and very happy to do so: can you get any more backwater than that? I love my life in the UK, but my OH wants a change and my family misses me, so it makes a lot of sense to take this chance while we can afford to so. If we don't like the life we create in NZ, then we'll head back to the UK or on to somewhere else.

Living in NZ is very different from holidaying and I think those who come over without a reccee trip or past holidays are very, very brave. Then again, to finish on another old saying: "fortune favours the brave" - you've just got to have the right outlook to overcome all the adversity that's bound to crop up when you take on a whole new way of life.

[John Z]

One (very important) reason (for us) for choosing NZ is "choice".

In the Netherlands we have about 465 people per km2.
In New Zealand we (!) have about 15 people per km2.

I'm 100% sure that most of the problems in modern society are coming from poor adaptation to the high density population and we are not going to sit and wait until modern governments are going to do "something healthy" about that. It's a structural problem.

In NZ I have a choice: do I want to meet/see/hear/smell people I can decide to just do so. But also can I (we) decide whether I (we) want to really be "alone".

Cheers,
John Z

[the emery family]

hey all. It's really interesting reading the passionate responses from everyone. I think it's such a personal thing, there's no right or wrong. My husband and i came over with our little girl in January from London, and I'm finding it pretty hard to adjust. New Zealand is beautiful, the space is wonderful, the sights are amazing. But it's definitely true that it isn't necessarily the idyll that you may expect before you arrive - social and economic problems are pretty similar to the UK. I guess it depends really on your life and experiences before you came over. For me personally i left behind a big circle of close friends from college who are irreplacable, and losing that support has been really hard. I had a great circle of like minded friends from my ante-natal group, and haven't found the same here, attitudes to motherhood are very different and for me it feels like i've gone back to the 1950s..........I miss my family more than i thought i would and the knowledge that they are just too far away to see more than once a year has been very hard. And yes, i should have known much of this before coming, but sometimes you don't realise how lucky you are until you are without the things that ground you.

Yes, london and the UK have their problems, but i for one miss the cosmopolitan atmosphere, the eclectic mix of people living together happily, the broad - mindedness that i haven't found here, the shopping, the pubs, the hustle and bustle. But that's not to say that i think it's better than here - it's just different. Different strokes for different folks. But yes, sometimes it's just a question of different geography, same kind of problems in day to day life.

But you kiwis are very lucky - this is a wonderful country and amazingly beautiful and if you live here surrounded by your family and your friends then you have it all.

[JoHnH]

Interesting responses, thanks. Saddest I guess were those who came for the quiet life, and found the quiet life wasn't for them. Expensive lesson?
That mention of population density by John Z raised another thought:
Is it a bit early days yet, or is the prospect of climate change influencing anyone's decision?
I mean, I gather that we probably won't be too much affected down here, it may get a bit wetter but we're used to that. The prospect for crowded Europe, however, with greater swings to extremes ...

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

Climate change wasn't a factor for me in making the decision to come here, however, what was a factor was opening up a little more of the world to our kids for their future choices in life. It had occurred to me that the choices they or their kids might make may well be more influenced by climate change and therefore by coincidence, as opposed to design, we may be offering them some assistance in the options open to them or potential lack of requirement to worry about it to the same degree.

[b&k]

We're moving to NZ for a lifestyle we can't get in the UK. We love London but hate the rough you have to have to get the smooth. Having a bus explode next to the office was just too much rough. In NZ we will have different smooth and different rough.

And if it doesn't work then at least you've found something out about yourself and you can use this to make better decisions in the future. Life's a journey, not a destination.

[JoHnH]

Escaped my notice: "...the British way is to enjoy a bit of a whinge and a moan..." (BaldyBeardyBloke)
Now that takes me back! I vaguely recall a bit of agitation here in the 1960s about "whingeing Poms." I think it culminated in a proposal for a campaign to "Punch a Pom a Day," which fortunately never got off the ground.
(You think NZ is provincial and stultifying now, boy you shoulda been around back then!)
So maybe I'm giving too much attention to complaints about the Supermarkets not stocking the right brands of "crisps" or Mushy Peas, whatever the hell they are. Maybe that's just "the British way."
But should you make a conscious effort to leave it behind if you decide to make the move? Should you learn to say "She'll be right" instead? Sweet as, mate?

[Sam B]

Trust me, John, you never want to find out what mushy peas are.

Perhaps we should have to do a special "she'll be right" test before we can get citizenship to check we've left our moaning, cynical ways behind us. I'd be stuffed.

[Sam B]

I can see why you're enjoying this forum though John, I would have found it fascinating to have stumbled across a forum for ex-pat kiwis in the UK. Threads about "where can I get pineapple lumps" and comments about weird British customs would have kept me up til the small hours.

[John Z]

Wow, interesting story JoHnH,

this should at least be celebrated and honoured with a yearly "Punch a Pom a Day-day".

Man, am I glad to be from Old Zealand....:exit



























(I'm learning, I'm learning...)


:laugh

[Belmont Babes]

:wah I'm sorry but I can't help experiencing so many emotions when reading threads like these. I can't begin to tell you what effect this forum has on me, negative and positive. I read some of the threads at lunchtime today before going to the gym and it really affected my mood.

We are hoping to broaden our children's outlook by emigrating and get away from the rat race UK with all it's problems of immigration and frankly the main problem of it being a small island with far too many people.

We may be being very naive but I feel it is just something that we have to find out ?

[CjChris]

JoHnH, you say, "Saddest I guess were those who came for the quiet life, and found the quiet life wasn't for them. Expensive lesson?"

Are you sincere in your queries, may I ask, or are you playing Devil's Advocate with this forum?

I do hope that that's not a chip on your shoulder hidden between the words you write. Surely you don't mean to come across that way. Are you here to help us or merely critique?


And there was NO way of getting away from the UK's war on terror. Every day in the UK I was stuck with our foreign policy, war in Iraq and the deep shame I felt by the association with it. Too many people in too small a place, crowded, polluted, consumerist.

Sam, same for us in the US--I am sick of feeling ashamed of what the government is doing. It just baffles me that things continue the way they are. When one of my high school graduates recently beamed at me about his recent military enrollment, I had to hide my sadness that he'll possibly end up in Iraq! :(

But, of course, there is so much more to it than that. Part of learning, for me, is meeting new people and seeing the way the rest of the world lives. I don't know if others (kiwis) see us (migrants) as just a bunch of folks wearing rose colored glasses, or if kiwis think we must be crazy to want to come live "in a hut" in a "poor" country....but I don't fault anyone for wondering if we really think the grass is greener...or what?? We all deserve to explore that and figure it out for ourselves.

I'm no Paris Hilton trying on the simple life as a way to poke fun at people with a simpler (and much of the time, poorer) way of life only to return to my mansion when I'm through playing.

I'm not into self-inflicted punishment by moving from my busy social life to a life where, gasp, I might get bored.

You know the saying, "Wherever you go, there you are."

Maybe the best things we can learn about ourselves are when we are quiet and can hear ourselves think. Be still and know.

I'm just a human being with a mind, heart, and soul that needs/wants something more, and something in the cosmos is pulling me toward NZ to work on that (I don't think I'll FIND "it" there, I think I'll be able to better work on "it" there).

Anyway, this is just my opinion, my thought added to this interesting discourse about what we're up to and why. :nice1 I think all of us here want a genuine and safe place to share our thoughts and experiences.

[zardell]

Well said CjChris - well said.


:clap :clap :clap


Julie

xx

[Lupin]

Whilst NZ is a poorer country and some of the social infrastructure is poorer than the UK I think many UK migrants are buffered by the capital they bring. If you own your home outright or your mortgage is tiny you have more money to prepare for retirement, take out private medical insurance, shop in New World, buy in a wealthy area etc, etc.

So for many immigrants NZ being poorer than the UK is only noticeable in terms of aesthetics. I'm not making any judgement on being in that happy situation at all, just pointing out that many migrants come here for a better quality of life that they can afford here because of the money they bring in to a relatively poor country. Also, if you're a skilled migrant, then hopefully you stand a decent chance of a well paid job, although I know that aspect doesn't work out for everyone!

[benandclare]

Interesting thread, but why no mention of those stuning Southern Alps, now they are something that money cant buy :raebanana :raebanana :raebanana

[John Z]

Right!

Aesthetics to me, as an architectural designer, or even as an "average" citizen, is hardly fed by buildings in the "rich countries".

The ugliest buildings I know are built by the wealthiest people.

On the other hand the most beautifull country, far out, is.........

I prefer honesty, originality, whether in people, design, "nature" or whatever. That's beauty to me.

So, the way I see it, NZ is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and therefore people who are ruining the(ir) environment by "design" should be procecuted.

That's the difference between ethical design and aesthical design.

John Z

[JoHnH]

CJChris:
No, I don't think I'm playing devil's advocate, not deliberately anyway.
What I mean is, when I first came to NZ, umpteen years ago, it really did have the third highest standard of living in the world, something like that. Perhaps in my earlier years I absorbed too much of the "best little country in the world,""great place to bring up kids" propaganda; but whereas my University education was virtually free, my kids needed hefty student loans to get through theirs - one consequence of the drop from third to about twenty-third on the OECD ladder, I guess.
I suppose I feel a certain amount of patriotic pride when people on this forum say how much they are loving it here - quite unjustified pride, I didn't make the mountains and beaches - but I also feel concern when people express disappointment at things like low pay, lack of choice in goods, lack of familiar goods, lack of big city excitement, remoteness and so on. What did they expect?

Perhaps from reading this forum, I was trying to say that it isn't Paradise here, (although maybe a small corner of it.) And wondering whether there should be a big LOOK, REALLY LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP sign somewhere.
Plus maybe I've a bit of interest in this whole business of emigration. My sister and my elder daughter have both moved to Australia, and they're happy as pigs in mud. Pretty dry mud, admittedly.

[John Z]

It somehow feels like discussing religion: whether you want to believe in something or not. Where the real question is: do you see the possibilities or not? Do you see the wealth or not?

Or, from a different angle: Do you see the wealth of a backwater or don't you (want to) see it? You can put a sign "LOOK, REALLY LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP" etc., but when you don't or cannot see...

John Z

[Lupin]

Right!

Aesthetics to me, as an architectural designer, or even as an "average" citizen, is hardly fed by buildings in the "rich countries".

The ugliest buildings I know are built by the wealthiest people.

On the other hand the most beautifull country, far out, is.........

I prefer honesty, originality, whether in people, design, "nature" or whatever. That's beauty to me.

So, the way I see it, NZ is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and therefore people who are ruining the(ir) environment by "design" should be procecuted.

That's the difference between ethical design and aesthical design.

John Z

I wasn't talking specifically of architecture, just the difference between being aware that NZ is in some respects a poorer country and feeling it.

The scenery here is awesome but time and again families are returning to the UK (and NZ families dreaming of a life over the ditch) because the scenery doesn't pay the bills or make amends for worrying about the future into the wee small hours (Happily this isn't the situation I'm in).

[Lupin]

It somehow feels like discussing religion: whether you want to believe in something or not. Where the real question is: do you see the possibilities or not? Do you see the wealth or not?

Or, from a different angle: Do you see the wealth of a backwater or don't you (want to) see it? You can put a sign "LOOK, REALLY LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP" etc., but when you don't or cannot see...

John Z

TBH, I think you're getting carried away. Obviously when people move to a backwater they see the wealth of living there.....that's why they moved there, they just might not be able to see the other side until they're there!

[Nathan]

CJChris:
..... but I also feel concern when people express disappointment at things like low pay, lack of choice in goods, lack of familiar goods, lack of big city excitement, remoteness and so on. What did they expect?
.....

It has crossed my mind, too, why someone would be suprised at the negatives of a remote country with a challenged economy. And maybe there is some of that, but the longer I read this forum, and those concerns, the more I think they are not written as suprises at the low pay, etc... but that the authors have come to realize that those things are more important to them than they thought. Not always, but I think a lot of that line of talk is more the result of self-realization that it is a result of ignorance of NZ.

People who have the where-with-all to take their lives half way around the world, for the most part, are not a bunch of dunces. But, it is to be hoped, we are all continuing to learn and grow. And I don't think it's failure to cross the oceans both directions. Life's an adventure! We can't all be David Livingstone, but we can still travel, and learn, and be fulfilled, wherever that happens to take us.

And to your original (implicit) question... I'm really tired of the rat race. I'm ready for a simpler life with my Sweetie.

[stu70]

We are all in different stages of our lives. Some of us are starting out , yet others looking for a "different" kind of kick after having made it some place else. The point is, no matter how much research you do , the real thing is not something that can be found in a simulator. So, are some folks nuts to move to NZ only to realize this place ain't some kind of panacea? Not really. They are just living their lives. And sometimes life needs to be lived not just planned in perpetuity. Hats off to all those who get off their behinds and give it a whirl. It sure is not for the faint hearted. Cheers

[mish&al]

Hey, one doesn't have to be english to whinge, we are all good at it, especially me, I think it's in my DNA!!:clap

I remember going on the big working holiday in 1993 from my little backwater in sydney's northshore, wide eyed and innocent, thinking just how sophisticated and wonderful and big London was!

Everywhere has it's advantages and disadvantages.:exit

[Sam B]

Just because we might moan about missing Walkers crisps and cold houses on this forum doesn't mean we walk around NZ moaning and grousing anyway. This forum is great for a bit of a sound off about minor things that don't REALLY matter, but you know you're safe in the company of people who understand. This forum isn't really meant to be read by Kiwis (although they're perfectly welcome), so we perhaps say things that we wouldn't say to our Kiwi colleagues at work for fear of being whinging poms.

Most of us post lots of positive stuff, but sometimes you do need to have a bit of a moan and get it off your chest. No harm in that.

Belmont Babes - don't worry. This forum did my head in the weeks before we left, I was drawn to all the negative posts and I was terrified. You really can't know if you'll like it until your here, and you've given it at least 6 months. It'll be ok. Don't worry.

[willowshouse]

So maybe I'm giving too much attention to complaints about the Supermarkets not stocking the right brands of "crisps" or Mushy Peas, whatever the hell they are. Maybe that's just "the British way."
But should you make a conscious effort to leave it behind if you decide to make the move? Should you learn to say "She'll be right" instead? Sweet as, mate?

I can only speak for myself .. but as I see it, my love for Walker's crisps does not translate into a criticism of NZ because they don't stock them as a matter of course. Why on earth should I have to "leave them behind"? When you move to a new country you don't automatically forget everything which gives you pleasure... How about you JohnH, isn't there anything you would miss if you left NZ .. and if you could get it somewhere in your new country wouldn't you be pleased?

Dawn

[willsken]

I can only speak for myself .. but as I see it, my love for Walker's crisps does not translate into a criticism of NZ because they don't stock them as a matter of course. Why on earth should I have to "leave them behind"? When you move to a new country you don't automatically forget everything which gives you pleasure... How about you JohnH, isn't there anything you would miss if you left NZ .. and if you could get it somewhere in your new country wouldn't you be pleased?

Dawn

Spot on! I miss a lot of trivial thing about the UK but that doesn't mean there's loads of things I don't miss. In fact, for all the things I do miss the positives I've gained from coming to NZ to live far far outweigh the them. Doesn’t stop me missing them though! For me it comes down to “would the things I miss be enough to drive me back to the UK.” No way!! (Except family… I miss them like crazy.)

[The Hodges]

JohnH,

If you have actually read through this forum, properly you would understand what it is all about.

We give each other advise and support, negative and positive. We help each other to make decisions on what to buy and where to look for it. We have found it extremely helpful on numerous occasions on what to do and what not to do.

And how amazing is it that a group of people who have never met until they have decided to make this move, can come together and support each other in the way that we do on this forum. Its just brilliant.:cheers

You obviously feel you want to be part of our 'whinging pom' group otherwise you would not have joined. And for someone who has been in NZ for many years, must have something lacking in life if they feel the need to NOW join an immigration forum. Beats Me!!

[hball]

I don't think JohnH lacks for anything - I think he is perhaps a little concerned that the wrong message is given out by those trying to up the immigration numbers. I too have been here quite a while, and found the forum by chance, as have other Kiwis I know. It may surprise you to know that last year I received a email from a friend in Hawkes Bay to say.. have you seen this web-site and what they are saying about us? (And for what it is worth, it wasn't this one!)

To call it a concern would be too strong - but for me a worry is the number of UK emigrants on this and other forums looking for a 'better and more laid back lifestyle'. Compare that attitude to immigrants from other contries who arrive expecting to work extremely hard with the intention of gaining a much higher standard of living than that found in their country of origin. This group also has the expectation that via our eductation system their children will go much further than they themselves could ever have dreamed of, and so we are looking at our future politicians and business leaders. I have absolutely no problem with this as we are after all a lot closer to Asia than we are to the UK, but I would like to keep a balance!

So to hear from a few Northern hemisphere emigrants who are looking to be movers and shakers in NZ would be really good!

[willsken]

Hball I think you have the wrong idea what is meant, by me anyway, about having a more relaxed and laidback lifestyle. I am a teacher and I don't expect to work any less hours or put any less effort into my job than I did in the UK. Neither does my husband. What I wanted to and have achieved, is not sitting in traffic for an hour every morning on the way to work. Not to have popping to the supermarket for a couple of bits take 40 minutes. Not to worry about my children when they go out because of madly busy roads etc etc. That’s what I mean by a more relaxed life style.... :yes

[Sam B]

Grrrr, Hball, I can promise you that I work as hard here (very hard) as I did in the UK. I care passionately about my job and providing the best service to every child and family that I see. That will never change. However, I'm pretty sure that career prospects are NEVER going to be the top reason why anyone came from the UK to NZ. In the UK I was classed as highly specialist and my pay reflected this. Here, there is no heirarchy and I'm just a bog-standard speech and language therapist, although I still do all the things that made me highly specialist in the UK, but no recognition.

And I'm back to new graduate pay. BUT, I'm not complaining about that at all, and never would. I KNEW this to be the case when I moved here. But I did not move here for my career because I would have much better career prospects in the UK.

I feel irritated by your post, and I rarely get irritated or express irritation on this forum. I guess it's the suggestion that other immigrants work harder than Brits - not true, I'm sure. A lot of British people are coming here to work in the education and health sectors, and I would bet that nearly every one of them are extremely dedicated professionals. However we also want a better quality of life and a more relaxed leisure time - so what??

Very few British people will move here to improve their career prospects - it's just not realistic. However we will work hard and add to the economy and the social welfare of this country.

[incredible hulse]

To be honest I'm actually disappointed that NZ isn't the backwater I was expecting ! I had heard the stories about it being 20 years being the UK and that was part of the attraction to us - a quieter life with more space to live in, etc. What we discovered (with Welly and Auckland anyway) was reams of suburbia built on top of each other and not so attractive commercial buildings more at home in business parks that were classed as towns (Paraparaumu is a classic example of the type of eyesore that would have Prince Charlie in a fit of rage). The only thing I find a bit of a backwater is the work (in terms of productivity and practices at least).
We haven't seen the SI yet but are taking a big tour down there soon - I suspect this will give us more of what we came here for and maybe the place we end up.

The story of Punch a Pom made me laugh also as a kiwi at work was telling me about how his father emigrated in the 70s and got a bit of a hard time from the farmer locals in the pub one night when they first arrived; generally giving him and his brother a hard time about being stuck up poms, etc. The locals got a bit of a shock when these 2 blokes from a rough part of Derby turned out to be a bit more 'streetwise' than they expected - was supposedly the last time they got stick for being Poms

[incredible hulse]

Very few British people will move here to improve their career prospects - it's just not realistic. However we will work hard and add to the economy and the social welfare of this country.

Very true Sam and to be honest the thing that most infuriates me about NZ is that work is sooo slow - I actually want to work harder and am frustrated at my teammates (non immigrants) who don't. When I say I want to work harder I do not take this as to work more hours (as the kiwi week is typically longer than the UK one) but to actually come in, do the job (properly) and then go home - I don't want to spend my day in pointless meetings moving from coffee shop to coffee shop. I've spent years in the IT industry, worked countless nights and weekends as that's what the job requires but that mentality is alien to what I am seeing here.

[JoHnH]

Cor! Getting a bit heated round here. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to start any fights - time to duck out I think.
Perhaps you better just put me down as a "whingeing Kiwi." NZ is becoming in some ways a rather different place from what I grew up in, I wonder about its future.
And you guys are the Kiwis of that future, aren't you?

[incredible hulse]

Perhaps you better just put me down as a "whingeing Kiwi."
Nah, you don't sound like anything like that lot in Earls Court ; )

[aberdian]

From what I've seen and experienced from albeit short(ish) term ie. year and below assignments all over the world, Walkers Crisp Syndrome is indeed a syndrome of not settling somewhere. When we were in Vietnam there were a large circle of expats (both well off and not) who could only whinge and moan about how they couldn't get this or that, and how the only place they could get HP sauce was one darling little shop in the most expensive hotel in town. I think it's symptomatic of mentally only being a visitor in a country, rather than jumping in and revelling in its differences. Almost to a person, those people who couldn't live without the familiar comfort blankets of whatever foodstuffs they craved hadn't experienced anything of the country in which they were living. Sweeping generalisations I know and I hope I don't offend anyone here - not meant to, just sharing experiences - our big craving wherever we go is always decent cheese.........

On the movers and shakers side, I think that both John on one side and Sam and Nicola on the other have points. We don't come across as being CEO's of multinationals etc, but the misconception is also there that the rank and file of us who do emigrate are not working hard (or intending to). The laid back lifestyle is largely from the no 2 hr commute on the M25 kind of change, not going from working a 60hr week to sitting on your bum watching the flowers grow. Mostly :)

I also think nails it when he says that there should be a "big LOOK, REALLY LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP sign " on the country (or any country for that matter). It amazes me the amount of self delusion people will indulge in to convince themselves that their view is right, right up until reality slaps them with a big wet fish. My aim in life is to avoid that fish at all costs :) The facing up to the fact that not all will/might/possibly not be milk and honey makes it tougher to get up and do stuff, take that leap of faith, but it's better in the long run. Personally speaking of course.

God I've gibbered on! Please remember this is just my take on life and may have no bearing on reality :)

Ian

[hball]

Slowly raising head above barricade...

SamB and Willsken - didn't mean to offend; I appreciate that you are working just as hard as you did in the UK for less money and even less recognition.

The intent of my point was that in order for NZ to keep afloat in the global market we have a need of immigrants who can bring sharp business skills and wealth building proposals to complement the talent already here. And it would be nice if some of them came from the Northern Hemisphere!

[Lupin]

Why does it matter which hemisphere thay come from and why a preference for the Northern, given that NZ is in the Southern?

[willsken]

hball I wasn't offended. I'm sure when people keep reading about a more laid back life style it's easy to think that working less is what we have in mind. TBH if I had the money it would probably be true!!:roll::)

[willowshouse]

From what I've seen and experienced from albeit short(ish) term ie. year and below assignments all over the world, Walkers Crisp Syndrome is indeed a syndrome of not settling somewhere. When we were in Vietnam there were a large circle of expats (both well off and not) who could only whinge and moan about how they couldn't get this or that, and how the only place they could get HP sauce was one darling little shop in the most expensive hotel in town. I think it's symptomatic of mentally only being a visitor in a country, rather than jumping in and revelling in its differences. Almost to a person, those people who couldn't live without the familiar comfort blankets of whatever foodstuffs they craved hadn't experienced anything of the country in which they were living. Sweeping generalisations I know and I hope I don't offend anyone here - not meant to, just sharing experiences - our big craving wherever we go is always decent cheese.........

So Ian .. if you love the cheese you can get in France and you wish you could get it here .. does that mean you can't settle here? Be serious will you!

There is a huge difference between an Ex-pat who doesn't wish to embrace their new country or anything about it (preferring to spend time only in Ex-pat haunts with other Ex-pats) and the person who misses their favourite crisps.

Come on guys .. it's getting silly :roll

Dawn

[willsken]

Ian, I have to say that me going out of my way to buy HP sause (and I do) is only because I love the taste of the stuff! Not because I miss the UK - I dont!! :p :)

When we were in Vietnam there were a large circle of expats (both well off and not) who could only whinge and moan about how they couldn't get this or that, and how the only place they could get HP sauce was one darling little shop in the most expensive hotel in town. I think it's symptomatic of mentally only being a visitor in a country, rather than jumping in and revelling in its differences.

[caseyjones]

The intent of my point was that in order for NZ to keep afloat in the global market we have a need of immigrants who can bring sharp business skills and wealth building proposals to complement the talent already here. And it would be nice if some of them came from the Northern Hemisphere!

I think it's unrealistic to hope that sharp Northern Hemisphere entrepreneurs will head for New Zealand. They are interested in making big money and they do that by operating in big markets. Northern hemisphere migrants are making an enormous contribution to NZ's economy in both the private and public sectors but as far as entrepreneurs go, I think you need to look to hold on to Kiwi entrepreneurs. They tend to move to bigger markets too but, holding onto home grown talent is a more realistic possiblity than attracting overseas entrepreneurs.

[hball]

Perhaps to create a balance between the two cultures. Yes, we are in the Southern Hemisphere, and so perhaps inevitably getting more and more dependent on Asia for daily life i.e the goods we buy in the shops. I would like it to be a two-way relationship - but what, other than tourism and our wine industry can we offer in return?

[hball]

Willsken, I recently spoke to someone in the UK who told me that he had been led to believe that NZ operated a very laid back attitude to work and that it was a lot more play here than the other. If it was to be any different he assured me that he was definately revising his idea to emigrate! On a personal level I know a family who emigrated here on the understanding that he would only have to work a four day week. This he does, and to be fair they seem very happy.

[aberdian]

So Ian .. if you love the cheese you can get in France and you wish you could get it here .. does that mean you can't settle here? Be serious will you!

There is a huge difference between an Ex-pat who doesn't wish to embrace their new country or anything about it (preferring to spend time only in Ex-pat haunts with other Ex-pats) and the person who misses their favourite crisps.

My point was that the most unsettled people seem to be the ones who can't or won't let go of the familiar. My cheese comment was a lighthearted throwaway (or meant to be!)

The ex-pat comment is interesting - when we were abroad, we'd do anything to steer clear of the expat community as they were generally just a nightmare, bitchy, aloof and exclusive. Do the people who've moved use the term "expats" when they describe themselves? Are expats someone who expects to only be in a country for a short time (<5 years) or is it all encompassing? Am I talking rubbish and doing anything to avoid getting on with work?

Ian

[willsken]

On a personal level I know a family who emigrated here on the understanding that he would only have to work a four day week. This he does, and to be fair they seem very happy.

My idea of heaven!! (As long as my kids still did 5 days at school!!:laugh )

[JoHnH]

Oh dear, look at the squabbling I've caused. Not my intention.
Final, really final, parting thought:
Surely "emigrating" doesn't mean just "going to live in another country?" Doesn't it mean "going to be part of another country?"
I think of my daughter, she's been in Aussie for five years now. She used to be a rather demure, well-spoken lass, sounded more like a Pom than a Kiwi. Now she has an Aussie accent you could cut with a knife - "Seedney, feesh'n cheeps, and I'm "Ded" - and she expends a lot of energy hating John Howard. She's emigrated, the little ***.
Wot abaht you then, whacker?

[CjChris]

Oh, dear, JoHnH, you contradict your proclaimed intentions with every new post.


:exit
Ok, folks, there's nothing to see here. Go back to what you were doing.

[Sam B]

Sorry if I sounded grumpy a couple of pages back, much more to do with my failing house sale than real irritation about any comments made. Anyway, I've got a confession .... I only work 4 days a week. Ha ha ha ha.

[dharder]

Anyway, I've got a confession .... I only work 4 days a week. Ha ha ha ha.

I do that here, and have worked 4 days for the last 6 years. If anything has ever in one single step improved my quality of life, it was going from a 5 to 4 day working week.

The last job I was offered here in London was for 4 days because I asked for it and they changed it from full to 4 days, but I fully expect not to be able to do that in NZ. It is one of the things I dread most because I know how much of a change that makes to every aspect of my life!

So, Sam, how did you get the four day week? Do you think that is a public sector thing? Is it acceptable to ask for four days?

Daniela

[Sam B]

Well Daniela, i had several interviews all over the North Island and I asked at the end of every one of them if I could work 4 days. Some said, yes, some said no. They were all for the same job in a different place, different managers. I was offered all the jobs and I took the one where the manager sounded friendliest and there was no intake of breath when I asked. She just responded straight away "of course, family comes first". I thought - that's the one! And that's how I ended up in the Waikato.

See now I've really blown the whole slaving away speech and language therapist cover haven't I? I'll just have to come down off my high horse and apologise to hball!

[mish&al]

ust because we might moan about missing Walkers crisps and cold houses on this forum doesn't mean we walk around NZ moaning and grousing anyway

I would tend to agree even though I haven't met anyone..I think the people on this forum are nice people, and I don't take it as whingeing anyway..I think it's great to hear the positives and negatives, and lets face it, who is positive 99% of the time in their life anyway?

Good on you all for supporting each other and making the move.:cheers

[Ana&Steve]

Surely "emigrating" doesn't mean just "going to live in another country?" Doesn't it mean "going to be part of another country?"
I've been reading from the wings so far on this thread, but to this I want to respond. Steve and I have the above mind set about moving to NZ. We intend to become citizens, and we'll be Kiwis (on paper, anyway!) I have noticed though that not everyone feels the same way. Though I found it strange at first, I'm now realizing how very different everyone's dreams and goals are, and I am now really enjoying absorbing all the different opinions on this forum.
Ana

[swissmissdesigner]

and we have sometihing in common here on this board : that we all lived in another country before and most of us arre well traveled people.

[liamnrach]

Well, well, JohnH, you seemed to have sparked off a bit of a debate on this one eh?:yes

We have been watching in the wings on this post aswell. Thought it was about time we responded.....

We all have dreams: It may be to retire early, move to another country, win the lottery or just to have a simple, rewarding life spent with your nearest and dearest.

For us (Rach and I), the dream is to live that 'backwater' life as you described so adeptly. I think this forum serves an excellent purpose in going some way to preparing people for what may lay ahead once the decision to emigrate to NZ is made. The guys and girls on this forum are, for the most part, open and honest about what to expect when living in NZ. After reading the posts here we have certainly 'adjusted' our views on what to expect and it also served to replace those 'rose tinted' spectacles that I, for one was wearing!:yes

I know you probably meant no harm with your initial post, and if you live in NZ you are certainly as qualified as most to put forward your opinion. IMHO I welcome varied opinions as it creates healthy debates in addition to eeking out further information from this excellent forum.

My OH and I have a dream. Our dream is to live in NZ, in beautiful surroundings, with friendly people, a roof over our head, spending quality time with our children. We do not suppose we will be living like kings, but our dream is to be rich in so many other ways;)

Liam n Rach

[JoHnH]

Thanks Liamnrach. Sorry about the spectacles, don't take my "backwater" comment too seriously, it's probably a bit over the top.
Ana, I admire your optimism, you guys from the US probably have a much bigger adjustment to make than the Brits do.
Still, could be worse - my wife teaches English to Asian immigrants, and boy do some of them have a struggle finding their feet in this strange place.
NZ poet Allen Curnow, writing in the 1930s and alluding to NZ being "upside down, at the bottom of the globe"

Not I, some child born in a marvellous year
Will learn the trick of standing upright here.

[swissmissdesigner]

JohnH: Those Asian immigrants are making a better business everywhere of the world. The second generation will be just like you... they will speak english just like you. These people are in generel hardworker and well educated people.
We have in L.A. a large population of Asian people. They are a big support in our economy.

[hball]

Didn't:yes :laugh I read somewhere that there are now more people from the Asian continent gaining residency here than from Europe?

Could be the other way round swissmissdesigner!!!!
:laugh

[JoHnH]

Dammit, I can't get away from this thread. I don't understand some of the hostility here.
SwissMiss, I said or implied nothing critical about Asian immigrants, or their work habits, I merely observed that some of them have difficulty adjusting to a society very different from the ones they have come from. It's a fact.
I recently downloaded for my wife the whole NZ national anthem, which I must shamefacedly confess I had never read fully before. One of her Asian classes had a whale of a time studying and analysing it for an entire lesson - they were fascinated.
Going right back to my original post: my understanding of our history is that for most of it, say well into the 1960s, NZ despite its agrarian base was seen by many migrants as a land of prosperity and opportunity, a place that would give them a chance to "get ahead." (And for British working class migrants, it was also an escape from the class system, a land where "Jack was as good as his master." The upper class, right from the start, had difficulty attracting and keeping domestic servants - Jack far preferred to go off and start his own farm or business. Perhaps the origin of the "G'day mate" ethos, but ancient history now.)
What I was wondering about was what appeared to be a bit of a gradual "sea change," especially in recent years - NZ being seen more as a refuge or haven from the stresses of the crowded modern world. Still a land of opportunity, but perhaps a different sort of opportunity?
Certainly some of the posts on this thread seem to confirm that, don't they?
And, does this "sea change" have implications for our future? (That's your future, not mine. I won't be around to see it.)
OK, Fire At Will.
No no, aim at Will, not me.

[liamnrach]

Hey JohnH....

Ever felt like your on to a loser:D

I'd throw that spade away if I were you cos you seem to dig yourself a deeper hole with each post!! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0007.gif

I know you don't mean to antagonise, but it is pretty obvious that people are not taking your posts as they are intended....to be honest, they do come across as a little....errrm....harsh?http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0029.gif

Have another go!!


Cheers

Liam n Rach

[zardell]

JoHnH.

I think whats happening to this thread is the same that has happened to many threads on many forums - the misinterpretation (by some posters) of the written word.

I am forced to agree that I too have noticed what I thought to be an amount of hostility towards some of your postings, however we are all entitled to our opinions and I do believe that all opinions have value.

What does concern me however, is that this thread is veering away from your original questions concerning why people come to NZ.

Well, you seem to have answered you own questions by stating in your last post........... ' (NZ) seen more as a refuge or haven from the stresses of the crowded modern world. Still a land of opportunity, but perhaps a different sort of opportunity?'

That statement will mean different things to different people, but it seems pretty spot-on and a good enough reason to me.

Take care,


Julie

xx