[migratory birds]

We're an interracial family. I'm concerned about how racism will affect our family once we move to NZ - in schools, community, etc.

I'd like to hear from others on this list about your experiences. Especially interested in hearing the stories of listmembers of non-European descent, parents of non-white kids or people whose partners are not white.

Are racist comments and general disregard toward people of color as bad in NZ as is reported?

[Nicola]

In my own experience yes it is more on the surface than I expected. None of it has been aggresive, but I have heard a lot of ignorant comments from older people, who tend to saywhat they think. Perhaps the schools are not as bad. I also suppose it depends upon where you move to. I can only comment on the area I live in.

The first time I noticed it was when my hubby and I were in a real estate agents office. The receptionist could not have been friendlier to us, giving us leaflets and taking our details. While we were browsing another couple came into the office, who were obviousl from India. The receptionist was really rude to them, did not offer them any help, even though they were really well spoken, had just got out of huge posh car and obviously had money to spend. I have seen this on a few occasions since. Usually the older people not younger ones.

I hope this does not put you off. New Zealand is a lovely place to move to and the majority of the people are warm and friendly. There are ignorant people in every country, they are some times just a little more vocal in NZ.

[Chiba]

We're an interracial couple too, Caucasian/Japanese. No idea if it's going to make a difference; don't really care. As Nicola said, there are ignorant people in every country. As she also said, "the sun is shining"! Go make hay and enjoy yourselves.

:cheers

[ElizabethD]

My husband is from the Middle East but lived in the US for 20 years before coming here. He has faced more discrimination here than he ever did in the US -- believe it or not--I never would have believed it-- I had such grand illusions about this place.....

[stu70]

My husband is from the Middle East but lived in the US for 20 years before coming here. He has faced more discrimination here than he ever did in the US -- believe it or not--I never would have believed it-- I had such grand illusions about this place.....

Sad really to read about this all. Could it be because Kiwis are so far removed from the rest of the world that their attitude did not change with time?

[Cindy]

Also interracial couple (Caucasian/Korean). Just recently moved from Los Angeles to Colorado and am having the worst time ever with racism. I've never felt so hated. I'm hoping NZ will be the lessor evil.

[swissmissdesigner]

Kiwis are overall very friendly people. However I often heard my friends blaming Maoris and Foreigners especial Asians for all the on going problems such as drug and crime etc.
Could that be because they look different?

ElizabethD: I agree with you...
Stu70:Do you mean "Island mentality"?

[swissmissdesigner]

Stu70: sorry this :D is a misstake!!!

cheers:

anna :)

[MB]

As she also said, "the sun is shining"! Go make hay and enjoy yourselves.

:cheers

:clap I like your attitude, Chiba.

[Lupin]

Two instances where racist attitudes have offended me:

1) A lovely Kiwi family we were getting to know and becoming quite fond of, gentle, friendly people, wonderful, loving parents and very giving as friends. Over dinner the conversation turned and suddenly we found the dad was saying "I'm not racist mate, I hate them all the f***ing same"- followeed by much guffawing. I thought it was a joke in bad taste but it soon became apparent it wasn't. My husband and I were so shocked and mortified we didn't challenge him at all. It really upset us. Still upsets me really, I haven't worked this one out at all.

2) I can't go into any detail here but a care professional I am aquainted with told me of an extremely, blatantly (no-one could just call it a non-pc laugh, it was horrendous) racist joke being told my a more senior staff member during a staff meeting. When my aquaintance decided s/he couldn't in good conscience let it pass without complaint and took it up with her/his manager, s/he was told "you'll get used to Kiwi sense of humour in time, mate".

:no

Having said that I was in a spa recently listening to the conversation of two men who worked in an apple packing warehouse and were discussing the vast number of immigrants from a wide variety of cultures that worked alongside them and I came to the conclusion that these guys were salt of the earth, were welcoming and interested in the people they worked with and made really interesting comments about how their asian colleagues worked twice as hard as any of their Kiwi ones and made a real contribution to the work ethos of NZ.

Of course it's not all bad, far from it, but the bar of acceptability is lower than I am accustomed to and that's not something I am ever going to feel comfortable with and hopefully the more people that feel the same as I, the sooner that bar will raise.

[urban78]

We're an interracial family. I'm concerned about how racism will affect our family once we move to NZ - in schools, community, etc.

I'd like to hear from others on this list about your experiences. Especially interested in hearing the stories of listmembers of non-European descent, parents of non-white kids or people whose partners are not white.

Are racist comments and general disregard toward people of color as bad in NZ as is reported?

My partner is of island decent (second generation Samoan), born and bred Aucklander. They have only admitted to me a few days ago that on several occasions some kids in school (primary and intermediate) told them to go back to their country and they had no place in NZ :no I have known my partner for 5yrs now and was shocked to hear what had happened. The conversation was prompted by a discussion we had with some friends on how we rencently went to Christchurch for a few days and my partner got weird stares/glares by people in a mall (the kind where you're scrutinised top to bottom), which both left us very uncomfortable...however we went to Welly and nothing of the sort happened :confused: To be honest, I wouldn't have imagined NZ to be like that.

I have never heard any open racist comments and I work with a lot of foreigners (asians, islanders, europeans) who are awesome and really smart/educated and well travelled. I guess, like Stu said, that NZ is so small and remote, their attitude isn't changing but it still isn't an excuse. Some people just need to be educated and understand that cultural diversity is a very good thing :nice1

Jen

[Super_BQ]

Some of my experiences and views - NOT TO BE HELD PERSONALLY AGAINST OTHERS!

As a chinese born Canadian, it's far easier for me to see such discrepencies in NZ as I routinely travel between both countries (Canada & NZ). I've told others that i've experienced more discrimination or stereotyping in NZ in 1 year than what i've experienced in Canada all my life. It's not dependant on location because the news media in NZ tends to lead the role. Worse part is it's not improving. The Maoris also criticise about the recent influx of asian migrants - stating that in a few years the asian population will surpass the Maoris population (diluting the % of their prescence in NZ).

If you do a search in the forum you will find recent cases that cover all areas in gov't, media (local Christchurch newspapers comes to my mind and the North South magazine last year pointing asians as part of the cause of increased crime in the country, organised crime, and bullying in the schools. Majority of the issues that the media brings up would never ever appear as blatently in N. American media reports.

What i've found peculiar is local NZ born chinese are none different. They have a 'clicky' and/or 'superiority' complex not only against new asian migrants, but also at local kiwi caucasions. This may be a reason why many of them are not public figure heads (tv & sport celebrities, & gov't) but instead, prefer to be just doctors and lawyers.

The root cause? IMO, I think it's nothing to do with the remoteness of the country but rather, a culture that has been handed down over many generations that stem back to the English empire. As many have posted, the older generation tends to be more discrimatory because they themselves would of had the same views as England did towards migrants at their time. It's a culture where no one likes to lose or be underminded. England use to be the #1 superpower 2 or 3 hundred years ago. But within a 100 years, we saw the rise of the Americans, for which at this time the British people didn't think kindly of it - even to this day you'll find many kiwis voicing their opinion against Americans. It's hard to find a nation that remains neutral though.

Overall it's not discrimination targetted against visable minorities but rather, we have to look at the very beginning from the time NZ was 1st colonised to now. Times when France continued to do nuclear testing at the Atoll (near Cook Islands) for which at the time, no person in NZ would dare to buy or own a french made car. I'm sure if you go further back, you'll find how the english settlors in NZ would voice their opinion against the numerous Scottish settlers. With recent asian migration to NZ, we're seeing the same thing regardless or race.

Though not directly the cause of racism in NZ, I think some of the examples below may help understand NZ's culture:

1) In the sporting arena: It's common knowledge that kiwis can't stand to see Australians win. If a NZ player were to move to Australia and play on their team, they would be labeled as a traitor. Again something i've not experienced in N. America when a top Canadian hockey player moves to the US (nor vice versa). But then again, i've heard that "Americans only play by themselves" hence NHL, NBA, etc.

2) Intervening Politics: I remember many years ago where the airline Ansett was about to go under. Ansett employees were furious, so much that Helen Clark (PM of NZ) flew over to Australia to settle the issue. Instead when it came for her to fly back to NZ, none of them would fly her back home - she was stranded there. Not even help from Australian's PM to get her on a plane. The end result was she had to call the NZ AirForce to rescue her back to NZ. Would this happen in another nation?

3) Spineless or a lack of patriotism?: My cousin's fiancee's brother (CFB) had been working in the US and was over visiting on holiday. My uncle was talking to him and gave the example of what Americans were like and etc. In reply the CFB said, "I don't think it's like that in the US.... they're very patriotic to the country..." my uncle's reply was, "oh.. is it that bad?" implying a negative view of the patriotism there. How many NZ citizens enjoy showing their flag around?

A Solution?:

I don't think there's any in the short term. Would it be better or worse? Like the war in Iraq, you just can't change the people's culture overnight. These views take generations and generations to iron out and even still, you will find extremists. Educating people how bad discrimination is and promoting tollerance won't work. Perhaps NZ could enacting a citizen's rights such as US's "Bill of Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights)" or Canada's "Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada/1982_I_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms)" where citizens can empower themselves. Basic rights that walk across all citizens of the country regardless of race. When citizens look at each other as a common nation, then the issue of race will be irrelevant.

BQ

[dharder]

I've only been to NZ (and really only Auckland) for two weeks, but even in that short time, I was struck by how racist it appeared to me. Not only in the form of 'harmless' jokes or derogatory sweeping statements that are all meant in the best possible way, but also just driving through parts of Auckland, going to the doctor's, etc.
However, I have found that to be true for the US as well (I have never come across more blatant open racist remarks than the ones overheard in Michigan when I was there for a couple of months), and I feel that every time I go to Germany for as well.

I think we shouldn't forget that you always look at an unfamiliar place differently. You will notice things more than in your everyday surroundings, you will put more emphasis on what people say, and you are more likely to say something like 'they think, they say' about citizens of another country where you would differentiate a lot more about your own country's population.

As an example, I complained to OH about the graffiti all over Auckland that I thought was really ugly and I thought wasn't as bad at home, only then, on my return to London, to all of a sudden notice it in places I walk past everyday. I just hadn't been paying attention.

So while I share the general sentiment that PCness (I think that is a good thing, have never seen it 'go mad' and generally approve of all ways to make people aware of stereotypical thinking) is not what it is in the UK, and found the level of racism that seems to be generally accepted to be rather higher than here, I also have to say that If I walked through London with eyes and ears as open and wide as they are when I am in an unfamiliar place, I might here a lot of things I don't like.

Daniela

[movefromus]

I was raised in NZ but I'm white so I have no personal experience. However, I do have two interracial sets of Aunts and Uncles - one Aunty married a chinese man and one of my Uncles married an Australian chinese woman. They may have had issues that I'm unaware of but I don't ever remember hearing negative comments about their relationships....multicultural relationships to me are just the norm as there are so many immigrants in NZ. I'm married to a white American, my brother dated a black girl and a Russien girl (at separate times!) in NZ, I dated chinese boys as a teen, my chinese friend is married to a Maori man, one of my best friends growing up (white) is married to a Korean man....my point is that you may come across racist remarks but there are a lot of interracial relationships in NZ - especially in the newest generation of marriages as we went to school with a lot of other races, cultures, etc.

[swissmissdesigner]

Movefromus: I would not expect racism either in an interracial relationship.
That would be the worst thing that can happen.

[Island Moose]

Too often, discussions about racism become littered with dramatic generalizations...words like "horrified", "disgusted" and "appalled" get thrown around as if it's a contest to be the highest on the moral mountain.

As the world becomes a more terrifying place to be (is your local medical doctor preparing to martyr himself?), this growth in intolerance is the unfortunate result.

All you can do is wage war on racism as best you can, keep it out of your house and workplace.

[james the mechanic]

Hi guys,
On my first visit to NZ I was unable to astatine what risks you were insuring against by taking out car insurance, I was aware it was not legally required. So why would people buy it? A little naive I know.
So I wandered into Napier police station and asked the male, ginger haired, late thirties desk sergeant. He explained that ACC picked up the bill for injury, but you are financially responsible for damage you cause.
‘It’s best to insure your car against damage, as most of the brown people don’t have any insurance or the money to pay for your repairs when they run into you pissed. ‘He added.
I nearly fell over, I had heard similar racist or stereotypical comments in most of the bars I’d been in all over NZ, however I didn’t expect it to come out of the mouth of a policeman on duty that I had only just met.
That was a few years ago and I have since given his comments far more thought than they probably deserve.
My question is was there actually anything wrong with his comments?
All he’s possibly doing is stereotyping.
Is it possible that the vast majority of ‘brown people’ in NZ are uninsured on lower incomes and more likely to have a drink problem?
If so its stereotyping based on fact and that’s what my UK insurance company do. They claim my OH is a better driver than me, that my car is more likely to be stolen than my neighbours and that I am a terrible risk despite my claim free history, due to my occupation.
I agree with dharder …
‘I also have to say that If I walked through London with eyes and ears as open and wide as they are when I am in an unfamiliar place, I might hear a lot of things I don't like.’
For example…
In 1983 Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Kenneth Newman caused uproar when he said that blacks commit all the crime in London. At the time statistics allegedly showed, that blacks were twice as likely to commit street crimes than whites.
We all make sweeping generalisations from time to time, I often say, ‘all motor mechanics hate football’ and I know that’s not true. But it my experience its not far from the truth.
Basically I feel the line must be drawn at stereotyping that infers or implies superiority based on colour, creed, sex, age or sexual orientation. It will always exist as it is basically human nature, one must strive to be intelligent enough to understand where the line must be drawn.
I think in general what we’re talking about here is, derogatory sweeping statements or generalisations rather than actual racism. As Lupin says the bar on acceptability is lower. But can we have it higher without the over pc nightmare that is the UK? I for one don’t want to be worried about being accused of sexism, for holding a door or offering a seat to a female.
Returning to my Napier policeman’s comments regardless of whether they were right or wrong they were unnecessary, perhaps it goes back to the old saying if you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say anything at all.
Enough of my incoherent rambling thoughts
James

[IanW99]

Not really sure that this is the racism that is being discussed in this thread but would like to make this comment:



1) In the sporting arena: It's common knowledge that kiwis can't stand to see Australians win. If a NZ player were to move to Australia and play on their team, they would be labeled as a traitor. Again something i've not experienced in N. America when a top Canadian hockey player moves to the US (nor vice versa). But then again, i've heard that "Americans only play by themselves" hence NHL, NBA, etc.


As far as I am concerned this is just sporting rivalry and certainly in most cases not a real problem at all (after all the amount of Kiwis in Oz and vice-versa wouldn't occur if they didn't truly get on).

And you say that US and Canada get on well together, but what about Mexico?

From a sporting perspective the rivalry with e.g. England and Scotland is way worse in my opinion.

Ian

[migratory birds]

I still would like to hear from those who have personally experienced racism in New Zealand (esp from those not of European descent or partners and parents of people-of-color). A few posts in this thread appear to have been made by individuals with no firsthand experience of racism which can stifle a conversation amongst those who have.

Please continue to post (or private message if that feels the best way to share your experiences) as we ARE an interracial family and I'd like to hear more about what to expect in various communities, schools, playgrounds, stores, etc.

[Ana&Steve]

migratory birds, have PMed you:)
Ana

[kanatakiwi]

I have been holding off getting into this discussion because what I want to say might be considered harsh by some. but I finally decided I should contribute. Apologies in advance if anyone is offended but Migratory birds are asking for advice from people who live with racism in their lives.

I am married to a Maori, and I have first hand experience about how that is for him, everywhere we go in the world. I don't think NZ is any worse than anywhere else, however kiwis are much more likely to voice what they think, than some other countries, where if they have any racist of bigoted thoughts, they keep them to themselves or amoung small groups of like minded people.

Although my husband is well dressed, clean, works in a law firm, he will still most likely be the one profiled in any customs queue, and this holds true nearly every country we enter (US is the worst, sorry guys) except NZ where he is usually welcomed "home" by customs agents genuinely interested in why a Maori would be living in Canada. I have to say the racism he experiences in the US is the worse he has encountered. That's not to make light of the systemic racism that is part of his NZ life. The sterotypical image of the brown person, driving drunk, no insurance, etc etc mentioned by another poster, is something that he has grown up with and it has shaped his personality.

So a few points I want to add to this debate:
NZ is a bi-cultural country. Auckland is a Polynesian city with nearly 50 % of its population being non-white. In this country it is very likely that almost every Kiwi (north island anyway, south island is a diffent story) will have been to a marae for a wedding, a funeral, or some other meeting. It's safe to say that is NOT true for most North Americans. ( and I guess there isn't an equivelant for UK and Europe. ) How many there have ever been on an Indian reserve? So my point is, there is racism, which is what most people on this forum are talkiing about, and then there is a kind of racism by default.

Ignore those around you who are not of your colour and you can live your life in a bubble. Its much harder to do that in New Zealand ( and why woudl you want to ?) If you havent connected to a Pacific Island or Maori community, you should, and I can guarantee that your children will. Its rare that a school in NZ does not spend at least one weekend overnighting at a Marae, learning the culture, some of the language etc.

I think as emigrants, its incumbant on us to make an attempt to learn some Maori language, Pacific Island customs, etc. Seek out an authentic Maori experience and I am not talking about the kind tourists get in Rotorua. I spent last night at an awards dinner for Maori artists and performers, it was an awesome positive experience. And I was the only Paheka at my table, which is an experience every white person should have from time to time to put everything into perspective.

So If feel in many ways NZ is making a much more serious attempt at racial harmony than any other country I have lived in or spent time in. Racism is always going to be with us until we make a personal commitment to do something about it. For me the best step I could take was to step up and understand this bi-cultural, multicultural country. Dont let people get away with bigoted, stereotypical, racist comments. Make sure your kids get the right vibes from you about their non white playmates. Kids learn racist attitudes, they are not born with them.

My advice to Migratory Birds and others, is to come here confident that you can deal with whatever racism you find here , just as you do anywhere else in the world. Its our world, we have to make it good for ourselves and our kids.
Gloria

[stu70]

I have been holding off getting into this discussion because what I want to say might be considered harsh by some. but I finally decided I should contribute. Apologies in advance if anyone is offended but Migratory birds are asking for advice from people who live with racism in their lives.

I am married to a Maori, and I have first hand experience about how that is for him, everywhere we go in the world. I don't think NZ is any worse than anywhere else, however kiwis are much more likely to voice what they think, than some other countries, where if they have any racist of bigoted thoughts, they keep them to themselves or amoung small groups of like minded people.

Although my husband is well dressed, clean, works in a law firm, he will still most likely be the one profiled in any customs queue, and this holds true nearly every country we enter (US is the worst, sorry guys) except NZ where he is usually welcomed "home" by customs agents genuinely interested in why a Maori would be living in Canada. I have to say the racism he experiences in the US is the worse he has encountered. That's not to make light of the systemic racism that is part of his NZ life. The sterotypical image of the brown person, driving drunk, no insurance, etc etc mentioned by another poster, is something that he has grown up with and it has shaped his personality.

So a few points I want to add to this debate:
NZ is a bi-cultural country. Auckland is a Polynesian city with nearly 50 % of its population being non-white. In this country it is very likely that almost every Kiwi (north island anyway, south island is a diffent story) will have been to a marae for a wedding, a funeral, or some other meeting. It's safe to say that is NOT true for most North Americans. ( and I guess there isn't an equivelant for UK and Europe. ) How many there have ever been on an Indian reserve? So my point is, there is racism, which is what most people on this forum are talkiing about, and then there is a kind of racism by default.

Ignore those around you who are not of your colour and you can live your life in a bubble. Its much harder to do that in New Zealand ( and why woudl you want to ?) If you havent connected to a Pacific Island or Maori community, you should, and I can guarantee that your children will. Its rare that a school in NZ does not spend at least one weekend overnighting at a Marae, learning the culture, some of the language etc.

I think as emigrants, its incumbant on us to make an attempt to learn some Maori language, Pacific Island customs, etc. Seek out an authentic Maori experience and I am not talking about the kind tourists get in Rotorua. I spent last night at an awards dinner for Maori artists and performers, it was an awesome positive experience. And I was the only Paheka at my table, which is an experience every white person should have from time to time to put everything into perspective.

So If feel in many ways NZ is making a much more serious attempt at racial harmony than any other country I have lived in or spent time in. Racism is always going to be with us until we make a personal commitment to do something about it. For me the best step I could take was to step up and understand this bi-cultural, multicultural country. Dont let people get away with bigoted, stereotypical, racist comments. Make sure your kids get the right vibes from you about their non white playmates. Kids learn racist attitudes, they are not born with them.

My advice to Migratory Birds and others, is to come here confident that you can deal with whatever racism you find here , just as you do anywhere else in the world. Its our world, we have to make it good for ourselves and our kids.
Gloria

Sweet post Kanatakiwi. I am wondering what has been your husband's experience in Canada like. Did he feel being given the same treatment as in the USA? I can second your view on Americans' racist attitude. Crossing the border while black, driving while brown etc is a common offence (I love American people that I have worked with, but their system is way too polluted for my taste) but did he feel the same way about Canada? I believe the charter of rights has done a lot of good for this nation but there is always room for improvement. Cheers for a great post.

[kanatakiwi]

Once Canadians knew he was Maori he was treated like royalty. If they mistook him for First Nations (Canadian Indian) that was adifferent matter. However he believes that Canada is the most racially tolerant nation in the world, cant say enough good things about it from his point of view.

[zardell]

Make sure your kids get the right vibes from you about their non white playmates. Kids learn racist attitudes, they are not born with them.




Wonderful, wonderful post Gloria - well said.

Julie

xx

[Ana&Steve]

I can't argue a single point you've made, kanatakiwi, but though I'm sure most people know this, not all Americans are racists.

We go to Indian Reservations quite a bit, we have friends out that way, and my Mom lives just above San Pasqual Reservation and works at their casino. (Which brings up another thing, most people in the US only go to Indian Reservations to go to casinos.:roll ) We just attended the most beautiful funeral I've ever experienced on the Rincon Res for a very dear friend who was half Indian. (cancer, he was 37:( )

Having been around the US a bit, I think California, especially SoCal, seems comparatively tolerant. Having said that, there is a lot of tension here with Mexico, but I feel a lot of it has to do with the Mexicans who are breaking the rules more than Mexicans in general. I've talked it over with my Mexican friends, and they're pretty angry with the illegals as it makes their progression more difficult, and insults their proud cultural heritage.

I can't deny the amount of hate crime that the US has, it is a deplorable thing and I feel shamed by it. I'm sorry your hubby had a hard time in the States, that is unacceptable. We're not all like that, I swear!:o

I'd have to say that even with the comparably lesser feeling of racism here in SoCal, NZ seems far more tolerant and friendly in regards to bigotry.

(US is the worst, sorry guys)
no offense, I know they're there.:no

Ana

[stu70]

Once Canadians knew he was Maori he was treated like royalty. If they mistook him for First Nations (Canadian Indian) that was adifferent matter. However he believes that Canada is the most racially tolerant nation in the world, cant say enough good things about it from his point of view.


:nice1 I thought that would be the case. Cheers

[willsken]

So If feel in many ways NZ is making a much more serious attempt at racial harmony than any other country I have lived in or spent time in. Racism is always going to be with us until we make a personal commitment to do something about it.

What a lovely, thought provoking post. Just a pity I wasn’t allowed to rep you!

The statement you made above rings true from what I am experiencing here at the school I'm working at. They embrace the Maori culture and we regularly have the Kapa Haka group performing for the school. We have a very dedicated Maori teacher and he had works so hard with them. They recently performed the Haka for a teacher leaving the school in assembly and it brought tears to my eyes, it was such a moving sight. :)

[constablechuck]

Sweet post Kanatakiwi. I am wondering what has been your husband's experience in Canada like. Did he feel being given the same treatment as in the USA? I can second your view on Americans' racist attitude. Crossing the border while black, driving while brown etc is a common offence (I love American people that I have worked with, but their system is way too polluted for my taste) but did he feel the same way about Canada? I believe the charter of rights has done a lot of good for this nation but there is always room for improvement. Cheers for a great post.


As an ex-cop from the U.S. I have a different perspective, of course there is racism in the U.S. but to generalize and say Americans have a racist attitude is to stereotype Americans, kind of the same thing victims of racism complain about "being stereotyped". A more "PC" thing to say might be that some Americans have a racist attitude.

A frustrating situation I sometimes encountered when dealing with SOME African Americans was that they would accuse me of being racist just for doing my job, if I arrested them on a warrant or for causing a disturbance they claimed it was because they were black, the fact that they had broken the law seemed irrelevant to them, I have been called a cracker and worse for no legitimate reason, so maybe I have been victim of racism.

In my opinion for someone to assume that every caucasian is a racist makes them a racist regardless of their race. People have the freedom to like or dislike whoever they want as long as they don't discrimate in situations that the law prohibits, if they want to stereotype others based on their race it's their right and their loss, learning about other cultures is one of the things that makes life interesting.

[stu70]

There is racism in the American system, it is not about an individual, it is more like a culture of segregation. I have seen it first hand when Canadians have been turned back from the border for no good reason other than the colour of their skin, I have worked with a South African black gentleman in the USA who would be routinely pulled over for speeding even if he was doing no more than the vehicle next to him. I am convinced it is the system that is broken and an environment there that somehow helps these attitudes to persist. I am speaking from my very personal experiences as a white foreigner in the USA.

[constablechuck]

Stu, the American system is made up of individuals, black, white and everything in between. The U.S. is a very diverse place, attitudes are different from state to state, city to city and person to person, I have no doubt that some customs officers and police officers have racist attitudes and I'm certain that most do not, people that work in Law Enforcement in the U.S. are given a psychological assessment and screened for things like racist tendancies, a few do slip through or develop these tendancies after starting the job.

The U.S. for the most part is a very racially tolerant place, racism is very taboo in society at large, look no further than the skin color of many movie stars and musicians you see on American T.V., or the affirmative action law that exclusively discriminates against white males.

I think everyone should be treated the same, I don't believe in special status or quotas for anyone, what happened between my ancestors and the ancestors of other races is not my concern, people should deal with others based on the here and now, jobs and other opportunities should be based on merit rather than skin color, in that respect America does have a ways to go.

[swissmissdesigner]

"The U.S. for the most part is a very racially tolerant place, racism is very taboo in society at large, look no further than the skin color of many movie stars and musicians you see on American T.V., or the affirmative action law that exclusively discriminates against white males.

I think everyone should be treated the same, I don't believe in special status or quotas for anyone, what happened between my ancestors and the ancestors of other races is not my concern, people should deal with others based on the here and now, jobs and other opportunities should be based on merit rather than skin color, in that respect America does have a ways to go."

Excellent thoughts!

As a foreigner living in the States for 10 years, and I consider myself well traveled and have lived in multiple countries : I believe that American in general are very respectful people...

[Lupin]

to generalize and say Americans have a racist attitude is to stereotype Americans, kind of the same thing victims of racism complain about "being stereotyped". A more "PC" thing to say might be that some Americans have a racist attitude.

You are right of course, although I'm always slightly wary of peoples from white majority culture crying 'racism' because I understand racism to be most potent where it is directed at a group of lesser power from a group with more. Stereotyping and racism are subtly different.

"The term racism is usually applied to the dominant group in a society, because it is that group which has the means to oppress others."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

In my opinion for someone to assume that every caucasian is a racist makes them a racist regardless of their race.

No it doesn't. It just makes them foolish.

I think everyone should be treated the same, I don't believe in special status or quotas for anyone, what happened between my ancestors and the ancestors of other races is not my concern, people should deal with others based on the here and now, jobs and other opportunities should be based on merit rather than skin color, in that respect America does have a ways to go.

And I just don't agree with this because I am ever aware that my wealth-priviledged society has blood on it's hands. I am 100% behind the Maori reparations and similar processes in US, Australia, UK etc, etc. Acknowledging the wrongs of the past and attempting to redistribute social priviledges in the light of that knowledge is surely the only way forward for a progressive, democratic, free society.

[willsken]

And I just don't agree with this because I am ever aware that my wealth-priviledged society has blood on it's hands. I am 100% behind the Maori reparations and similar processes in US, Australia, UK etc, etc. Acknowledging the wrongs of the past and attempting to redistribute social priviledges in the light of that knowledge is surely the only way forward for a progressive, democratic, free society.

With you on that one Lupin!

[ellenmelon]

... not all Americans are racists.

and neither are all new zealanders.

[kanatakiwi]

I'm truly sorry if my comment about my husband's experiences in the US have led to this thread becoming all about Americans.:o I don't believe all Americans are racist, and never said so. For the sake of Migratory Birds, it would be good if we could get back to the original posters question about personal experiences with racism by non Europeans in NZ.:yes

[Ana&Steve]

Eeww, I also apologize for my part in this! I just wanted to give my thoughts on the subject, and I really should have left it at this:
I'd have to say that even with the comparably lesser feeling of racism here in SoCal, NZ seems far more tolerant and friendly in regards to bigotry.

Hope that's more on topic!
Ana

[Sam B]

I started work almost immediately on arrival here in an area that has a high percentage of Maori and Pacific Island people, and at first I found it overwhelming. I was (and still am) aware of how little I knew about the culture, language and history, and I have daily experiences that take me right outside my comfort zone. I constantly worry about doing things wrong, or doing something inappropriate. The Maori culture is fascinating and I also love how the language sounds, but I still question whether I was the right person for the job. As a speech and langauge therapist working with under 5s, I need to observe and assess children in their pre-school settings, and many of my clients are in Kohanga reo, so I cannot understand a word they are saying. Worse, as soon as the other children there realise I only speak English, they all start yacking away to me in English and they're not supposed to do that!

My point is, I wholeheartedly agree with Gloria about the need for all of us here to learn about the culture of Maori and Pacific Island people, but I haven't found it easy, it has often made me feel anxious and inadequate. It is a very useful experience to suddenly be in the minority as I often am now, but it isn't a comfortable one.

[KerryS]

It is a very useful experience to suddenly be in the minority as I often am now, but it isn't a comfortable one.

As someone else with a Maori partner I can echo Gloria's post. Also, what Sam said above.
The first time I was invited to the Marae to meet my boyfriend's whanau I was the only white person there. They all speak Te Reo, and I was totally out of my depth and felt really isolated being in a situation where I had no understanding of what was going on around me.
However, they could not have been more welcoming and warm, so I never experienced any ill feeling or racism.

My boyfriend has experienced racist comments when working in Sydney, and also when in New York. These were all in a work environment, and I think related to his position and the fact he was reasonably successful at a young age. He currently works in Dubai and has had no problems there to date.

[Natasha]

What a fascinating thread! I tried to ask a similar question on this forum a while ago, so I am pleased to see the topic being started again.

Going to a new place and being in such a minority has worried me. We live in Wales, but both grew up in England. I have felt alot more conspicous in Wales than I did in England. I even trained people in equality and diversity in my job. What a horrid experience. I had to listen to people's obviously racist comments and views whilst trying to influence their attitudes. I'm not sure what impact I had but it really made me see what the attitudes of some Welsh people (people in general) are and it's slightly scary.

As a black person it's hard to listen to racist comments even if they are not meant. It's uncomfortable. I have definately picked up on more racism than my partner Alex (tall, white male) in Cardiff. I have seen the glares, looks and listened to comments directed at me and at others. I even had the unpleasent experience of some small kid in a bank calling me a racist name. Everyone heard and I blushed hard. (Not that anyone could really see!)

I'm not sure we will have a problem in Wellington but I do worry about more rural places, that may mirror some of the valleys in Wales.

By the way, I'm not saying all Welsh people are racist because they are so not. Lots of Welsh people are lovely and I for one, love Cardiff.

[willsken]

What a fascinating thread! I tried to ask a similar question on this forum a while ago, so I am pleased to see the topic being started again.

Going to a new place and being in such a minority has worried me. We live in Wales, but both grew up in England. I have felt alot more conspicous in Wales than I did in England. I even trained people in equality and diversity in my job. What a horrid experience. I had to listen to people's obviously racist comments and views whilst trying to influence their attitudes. I'm not sure what impact I had but it really made me see what the attitudes of some Welsh people (people in general) are and it's slightly scary.

As a black person it's hard to listen to racist comments even if they are not meant. It's uncomfortable. I have definately picked up on more racism than my partner Alex (tall, white male) in Cardiff. I have seen the glares, looks and listened to comments directed at me and at others. I even had the unpleasent experience of some small kid in a bank calling me a racist name. Everyone heard and I blushed hard. (Not that anyone could really see!)

I'm not sure we will have a problem in Wellington but I do worry about more rural places, that may mirror some of the valleys in Wales.

By the way, I'm not saying all Welsh people are racist because they are so not. Lots of Welsh people are lovely and I for one, love Cardiff.

Natasha, you are right about the attitudes in Wales. I find it hard to relate to people saying NZ was more racist than UK, as I have found NZ to be far less so. I encountered a lot of racist attitudes living there.

[Andy-Dee]

Love, peace and happiness to everyone...... and I believe in looking forwards - the future is the only bit we can influence.

[thepiesleys]

I am a white european as is my wife and my three children - apologies if I dont fit the demograph migratory birds is after but I want to share my encounters with racism in NZ.

I play rugby and my fellow players almost to a man are racist to the maori, Fijian and Cook islanders we have in our team. They are refered to as blacks, backies and brown. Always in a joking way that reminds me of the attitude towards people of colour in the early 80's while I was at school in a small UK town. It was still acceptable to tell racist jokes then.

The white people defend their comments by saying things like 'their our blackies' although I suspect that the isalnd and maori boys at the receiving end are a little tired with it. I am very uncomfortable with the comments.

Also one white kiwi who had lived in Manchester for three year asked me if I had left the UK to get away from the 'f*****g niggers' No one in the group who were chatting batted an eyelid.

My last experience is rather shamefully from a group of ex pats who I see from time to time socially - they have all jumped on the island bashing bandwagon and are openly racist about them.

I have thought about this and have come to a conclusion that yes NZ has racist elements but not any worse than the UK, just that people in NZ that I have met who have the inteligence and experiences not to be racist are, were-as in the UK, ignorant ill educated people I had contact with were more prone to racist outbursts.

This is all my opinion.

[mish&al]

my partner got weird stares/glares by people in a mall (the kind where you're scrutinised top to bottom),

This happened to me and my children, and I am of half european and irish decscent!

I think I noticed it more this time than any times before.

This has never happened to me in sydney, sometimes there are advantages of the big smoke.

I was in a mall in christchurch, northlands to be exact, and I saw some kids actually go up to an indian family and openly laugh at them and take off.

My kids just wouldnt do that, to them multiculturalism is normal, being at a school with 67% mixed nationalities has it's advantages.

[sunkist]

You will find that Kiwis who have traveled overseas are more accepting of other people's cultures and those who haven't been out of the country are the ones who you can call "racists".

[Tia Maria]

We are originally from North London and my eldest son, 4 at the time, went to a very multicultural school and had friends from various cultures and religions. This is very much the background I was bought up in and none of my friends or family are racist.

We are now living in a mainly white area of NZ, where although there is very little multiculturism I haven't come across any racism either.

However, I was shocked when we spent a few days in Singapore and my son (now 6) said on leaving, that 'he was pleased to get away from all those brown faces'. I know he won't have got it from any of his friends or family so I can only guess that it is because he now lives in a very homogenous society that he feels uncomfortable with anything different.

Obviously we had a chat with him but it was interesting that it only took 2 years from being completely at ease with different cultures, to making such a comment.

Cheers

Tia

[Indigoazure]

I thought I'd add this article since many (not all) here don't seem to know what racism is. Anywhere you find "a group" who have completely taken over a country from the indegenous people, you will find racism. It goes hand and hand.

It would also help to read other articles on this site:
http://www.timwise.org/

Motive and Opportunity: The Difference Between White and "Other" Racism

By Tim Wise

"Why don't you ever talk about black racism?" Of all the comments I receive in the course of my work, this is the most common. Conservative white folks, tired of hearing about the vagaries of institutional racist inequity -- which tends to elevate us relative to people of color -- offer this rejoinder in what they consider the ultimate response to antiracist commentary. Forgetting for a moment their favorite mantra for the black and brown (namely, how they need to stop focusing on whites and take "personal responsibility" for their lives), my pale-skinned brethren turn quickly to focusing on the "other," personal responsibility be damned. Oh well, consistency was never our strong point.

For many of my colleagues in the civil rights and antiracist community, the answer to the above-mentioned challenge is a no-brainer. Perhaps you've heard it before: the argument that only whites can be racist, because racism is a power relationship, and only whites have institutional power, at least in the United States. Frankly, I've never bought into this notion, at least not in the strictest sense. For while it is true that racism is a systemic framework of oppression and privilege, to which only the dominant group has access, it is also, as an "ism," an attitudinal mindset of racial supremacy to which anyone can adhere. Yet, having said that, I do think the power aspect of racism should be most prominent in discussions of the subject, and that the white racism that has the backing of said power should be the principal area of antiracist concern. But even that simple notion proves too much for some. The idea that white racism should be seen as different from the "racism" of people of color is one many find hard to defend. After all, they say, prejudice is prejudice, and should be equally condemned.

Having long tried to explain with the help of quantitative data why white racism is more problematic, and ultimately the racism issue, I was relieved a few months ago, when a news event in my home town developed that made clear -- far better than I had been able to -- why we must give priority to the racism of the pale and privileged, over and above the possible racism of those of color.

You probably didn't hear about it, as it was considered barely noteworthy, even in the town where it happened. I refer to the recent decision by a surgeon at Nashville's St. Thomas Hospital to abide by the bizarre wishes of a patient's husband: namely, that no black man be allowed to assist in her heart surgery; one without which she would have died. Previous doctors having refused to honor the racist request -- made because the husband didn't want a black man to see his wife naked -- the man continued searching until he found someone to accede to his wishes. Though the doctor has announced his regret for collaborating with the exclusion of a black doctor from the O.R., the lead surgeon touched off a firestorm of controversy when word got out of his decision. Putting aside the ethicality of the doctor's decision, this incident illustrates a number of important points.

First, the incident indicates that racism on the part of whites, even when fairly disempowered in economic terms (and this family was low-to-moderate income at best), can often carry enough weight to be enforceable, by institutions and powerful individuals. Though the doctor was appalled at the request made of him -- as he no doubt would have been had it come from a black man asking to keep whites out of the OR -- the fact remains that his ultimate acceptance of the demand stands in contrast to what he likely would have done had the man been black, seeking to keep white folks like himself from being involved in the procedure. No black person, no matter how bigoted or financially powerful could make such a demand and expect to have his or her wishes carried out. Whites are not likely to go along with requests to limit our own freedoms and opportunities.

Just as we can not imagine the black-bashes-white equivalent of The Bell Curve being published, being reviewed respectfully by mainstream media, or becoming a best-seller (since the majority won't buy a book claiming they are genetic defectives), it is hard to imagine people of color demanding the exclusion of whites from any setting, and getting their wishes fulfilled. Such is the nature of potent racism, versus its impotent counterpart, and such is the difference between the racism of the majority, and that of everyone else.

Secondly, and more importantly, is what this incident says about the importance of institutional racism and inequity in making individual racism meaningful and harmful in real world terms. Simply put, the doctor in this case went along with the demand to exclude blacks from the operating room because he could. Given the history of discrimination in access to the medical profession, including medical schools, and the barriers to professional practice faced by too many people of color, there exists today a limited number of such professionals from which to draw. As such, excluding them from a particular hospital or procedure is hardly a huge burden for the institution in question.

Now imagine what would happen if the situation were reversed, and a racist black man had demanded the exclusion of whites from the OR. Even if there were a doctor willing to agree to such conditions, it would be virtually impossible for him or her to follow through, because whites -- having received the opportunities needed to enter the medical profession in large numbers -- are hard to work around. "No whites" policies would result in a lot of empty operating rooms, whereas "No blacks" policies require only a small administrative headache at best, so few and far between are such professionals in the first place.

In other words, institutional racism is akin to the gasoline, allowing the otherwise stationary combustion engine of individual racism to function: the former gives the latter life, and the ability to impact others in a meaningful and detrimental way. Without the power to enforce one's racism, or expect it to be enforced or enforceable by others, that racism is largely sterile.

Much the same would be true in other realms of life, beyond medical and hospital settings. Blacks who wish to avoid whites in their neighborhoods will typically find themselves limited to the poorest, most crowded areas of town -- places whites long ago abandoned -- since finding Caucasian-free zones in more prosperous suburbs can be a tough task. Whites can more or less live wherever we wish. If we are not to be found in a particular census tract you can bet it's because we've chosen to be absent. Such cannot be said for why blacks are often absent from more affluent areas, however. Money or no money, good credit or bad, millions face discriminatory barriers in residential opportunity every year.

Once again, even if people of color despise whites and seek to avoid us, their ability to do so will be directly constrained by the larger opportunity structure that has skewed power and resources in our direction. Whites seeking to avoid blacks and Latinos on the other hand, can do so readily, with the help of mortgage discrimination, redlining, zoning laws and so-called "market forces" pricing many blacks out of the better housing markets (even though we only got into those markets because of government subsidies and preferences, both private and public).


Additionally, the "power" of violence is not really power at all. After all, to exercise this power, one has to break the law and thereby subject themselves to possible legal sanction. What kind of power is it that can only be exercised illegally? Power is much more potent when it can be deployed without having to break the law to do it, or when doing it would only risk a small civil penalty at worst. So discrimination in lending, though illegal is not going to result in the perp going to jail; so too with employment discrimination or racial profiling.

There are plenty of ways that more powerful groups can deploy racism against less powerful groups without having to break the law to do it: by moving away when too many of them move in (which is something one can only do if one has the option of moving where one wishes, without having to worry about discrimination in housing.) Or one can discriminate in employment but not be subjected to legal penalty, so long as one makes the claim that the black applicant was "less qualified," even though that determination is wholly subjective, and rarely subjected to open scrutiny to see if it was determined accurately, as opposed to being a mere proxy for racial bias.

[JoHnH]

Jeez, all that theory really gets me down.
Look, old upper-middle-class white Kiwi speaking.
I shop at Pak-N-Save Supermarket in Glen Innes, Auckland.
The customers around me seem to represent all races, and at least half of them, if you eavesdrop, turn out to be babbling in "foreign."
The staff similarly seem to represent most of the races and cultures available on earth. And frankly I don't notice whether my olives and salami and fish are served up by the obviously African gentleman currently in the deli area, or the Maori lass ladling out the shrimps, and I don't notice whether my check-out operator is the old hard-bitten Aussie lady or one of the little Oriental girls.
They all get it right and get it done.
Worst thing about shopping at Pak-N-Save is the way everyone politely gives way to everyone else with their trolleys. You feel obliged to do the same, and it really slows you down. And they all smile at you all the time!
Yeah, the rest of NZ may be a hotbed of vicious racism, but someone oughta go and tell the crowds at Pak-N-Save about it. They don't seem to have got the message.

[stu70]

Jeez, all that theory really gets me down.
Look, old upper-middle-class white Kiwi speaking.
I shop at Pak-N-Save Supermarket in Glen Innes, Auckland.
The customers around me seem to represent all races, and at least half of them, if you eavesdrop, turn out to be babbling in "foreign."
The staff similarly seem to represent most of the races and cultures available on earth. And frankly I don't notice whether my olives and salami and fish are served up by the obviously African gentleman currently in the deli area, or the Maori lass ladling out the shrimps, and I don't notice whether my check-out operator is the old hard-bitten Aussie lady or one of the little Oriental girls.
They all get it right and get it done.
Worst thing about shopping at Pak-N-Save is the way everyone politely gives way to everyone else with their trolleys. You feel obliged to do the same, and it really slows you down. And they all smile at you all the time!
Yeah, the rest of NZ may be a hotbed of vicious racism, but someone oughta go and tell the crowds at Pak-N-Save about it. They don't seem to have got the message.

I want to thank you for such a lovely post. It says so much in so few words. A delight to read. For those who might fear racism is rampant in NZ will find stories such as these very refreshing and perhaps assuring. Cheers

[IanW99]

...
Anywhere you find "a group" who have completely taken over a country from the indegenous people, you will find racism. It goes hand and hand.
...


What a strange comment to make, how could you possibly come to that conclusion?

So are you saying that if there is no group of people who have completely taken over a country from the indegenous people then you won't find racism? :confused:

Ian

[dharder]

Look, old upper-middle-class white Kiwi speaking.
I shop at Pak-N-Save Supermarket in Glen Innes, Auckland.

I shop at the same Pak n Save, and babble foreign :) And had a guy at the check out babble back at me in foreign, so I taught my kids the valuable lesson that you can never tell who might understand you...

However, I believe 'not noticing' who is what colour is actually a white prerogative.

I think often meant in the nicest possible way, white people often don't see racism. We tend to make assumptions without considering that our reality might not be the reality of a person of colour, that there are prejudices and stereotypes out there that even if we don't personally share them, are something black people, just as an example, have to deal with.

From that point of view, I think it is important to listen to people who are experiencing racism, and even if it may not fit our personal definition or we don't see it, it still is important to take it on board.

stepping off soapbox...

Daniela

[JoHnH]

Well granted it's a trivial example, Daniela, but I do feel that good ole GI Pak-N-Save is a sort of example of the "melting pot" in action.
You couldn't really say that any one racial or cultural group, or social class, predominates down there, among customers or staff.
OK, all that people have in common there is the pursuit of cheap groceries. But basically in that pursuit they seem to me to leave any sense of racial or cultural or class differences or identities at the trolley park, and just get on with the shopping. There's certainly no special aisles or preferential lines for anyone. And the "be nice to other shoppers" ethic seems to be practised by everyone.
Even the Poms!!!!
In a nutshell, at Pak-N-Save racial and cultural differences are just completely irrelevant.

And there is no particular reason why the whole damn country shouldn't be like that, in the not too distant future, if we just put our minds to it.

[ourquest]

Indigoazure has made a very academically valuable observation which for the sake of myself trying to fully understand it and for the benefit of those who might not have read it, I could try to summarise as follows:

Racism by anyone in a position of power has potentially far more impact than racism which is directed at someone in a position of power.

Ultimately very simple but probably not understood enough by those of us who belong to a race which has a powerful position for one or other reason (for myself a majority in the case of New Zealand, minority in the case of South Africa) Although we try to be objective and knowledgable on its true impact, I am sure we can fall short on empathy.

I too enjoyed JoHnH's grocery shopping expedition, but even with the above in mind, and in showing particular respect to the learned position of Indigoazure, I feel I should point out that JoHnH's frame of reference is obviously not a statistically valid sample, anymore than hanging around in a wildlife park for a few hours waiting for some action proves that lions never really kill anything.

Racism is a form of prejudice, and as an example I will bet that an average trip to the Pack'n Save doesn't reveal any prejudice towards overweight people either, but I bet if you are one, you're a bit tired of people judging your lifestyle before they know you.

That having been said, and which could easily be construed as a critism of JoHnH's post, I do ultimately appreciate the attitude in his post, as I agree that if everyone had this sort of indifference to other's appearance the world might be a better place. But there is an equal need for empathy, as no-one's problems have ever disappeared as a result of someone else telling them their problems don't exist.

So let's find some middle ground as individuals. We will accept that prejudice exists, work on prejudice in ourselves, have empathy for those who experience it and give credit to those who rightfully attempt to expose it. Deal?

[Lupin]

No deal.

Largely because, despite being an intelligent woman, I struggle to completely understand your posts.

But also because I sense that's the kind of softly, softly, slowly, slowly deal only a white male could offer.

[Myrkk]

the fact remains that his ultimate acceptance of the demand stands in contrast to what he likely would have done had the man been black, seeking to keep white folks like himself from being involved in the procedure. No black person, no matter how bigoted or financially powerful could make such a demand and expect to have his or her wishes carried out. Whites are not likely to go along with requests to limit our own freedoms and opportunities.

Given the history of discrimination in access to the medical profession, including medical schools, and the barriers to professional practice faced by too many people of color, there exists today a limited number of such professionals from which to draw. As such, excluding them from a particular hospital or procedure is hardly a huge burden for the institution in question.

Now imagine what would happen if the situation were reversed, and a racist black man had demanded the exclusion of whites from the OR. Even if there were a doctor willing to agree to such conditions, it would be virtually impossible for him or her to follow through, because whites -- having received the opportunities needed to enter the medical profession in large numbers -- are hard to work around. "No whites" policies would result in a lot of empty operating rooms, whereas "No blacks" policies require only a small administrative headache at best, so few and far between are such professionals in the first place.



I'm sorry my skills are not up to doing a better quote job on this but hopefully it'll make sense.

I find the statements above somewhat ridiculous as a white person living in the UK still. I have lived all over the UK and in most areas my G.P. and in the cases where I've needed them.. Consultants were all of non-white descent.

I currently, for the first time in over 8yrs have a white G.P. but there are lots of other skin colours in the G.Ps staff room.

So I'm sorry but for me the statement that there aren't enough people of non-white origin is not valid. I also find the statement that it would not happen if it were a black person asking the same to be a leading statement. Has it happened? If not then until it does you cannot make such a statement, you can say it probably wouldn't or may not happen but not that it would not happen.

[Tia Maria]

Indigiazure wrote:

I thought I'd add this article since many (not all) here don't seem to know what racism is.

I read your article with interest and agree that racism has far more impact when dealt out by those in a position of power.

However, I found the author's use of the term 'whites' as overly simplistic. When I left London the main group suffering at the hands of racism were Eastern Europeans, they are white how do they factor into the whole white/black issue?

I think the whole article is written by someone with a very american experience of racism and view of race and colour, maybe it reads better within that context?

Cheers

Tia

[Jo Jo]

Excellently put, Tia; I agree.

[ourquest]

No deal.

Largely because, despite being an intelligent woman, I struggle to completely understand your posts.

But also because I sense that's the kind of softly, softly, slowly, slowly deal only a white male could offer.

Accepting that prejudice exists is either a yes or a no decision, and since we all have some prejudice at some level surely the decision must be yes. If you would rather not have any prejudice then to eliminate it will take some work and since none of us will ever get rid of it totally it will have to be seen as a slowly slowly process. It is each individual's choice as to whether they're prepared to have or develop empathy, and likewise your choice whether you value the efforts of individuals who are prepared to speak out against racism.

Awareness, growth, empathy and respect are character traits which combined carry great value and impact in society irrespective of who has them, and so it might not be entirely correct to imply that they are too ineffective.

But "no deal" is fine by me, just as long as you understand that whether or not you are prepared to value these things should have absolutely nothing to do with how you perceive me or the posts that I have written. Listen to the message, not the messenger.;)

[Lupin]

Accepting that prejudice exists is either a yes or a no decision, and since we all have some prejudice at some level surely the decision must be yes. If you would rather not have any prejudice then to eliminate it will take some work and since none of us will ever get rid of it totally it will have to be seen as a slowly slowly process. It is each individual's choice as to whether they're prepared to have or develop empathy, and likewise your choice whether you value the efforts of individuals who are prepared to speak out against racism.

Awareness, growth, empathy and respect are character traits which combined carry great value and impact in society irrespective of who has them, and so it might not be entirely correct to imply that they are too ineffective.

But "no deal" is fine by me, just as long as you understand that whether or not you are prepared to value these things should have absolutely nothing to do with how you perceive me or the posts that I have written. Listen to the message, not the messenger.;)

Yeah, tbh, you lost me a little in the middle again there ...

It's not 'no deal' to accepting there is some prejudice! It's 'no deal' to:

work on prejudice in ourselves, have empathy for those who experience it and give credit to those who rightfully attempt to expose it. Deal?

because that way we're all going to be waiting an awful long time for a free and fair society.

[JoHnH]

Ourquest: "...I feel I should point out that JoHnH's frame of reference is obviously not a statistically valid sample..."
No, it's not a "statistically valid sample." It's a Supermarket in Auckland. (A city which is projected by 2020 to be less than 50 percent "European" or Pakeha, and over 50 percent Maori, PI, Asian, and God alone knows what else.)
As an old-fashioned Kiwi, I suppose I should regret the forthcoming eclipse of the predominance of my kind of NZ joker, "short back'n sides, no worries mate, she'll be right." But I don't.
She's gunna be rather a different world come 2020 (not that I'll be around to see it) but she doesn't have to be a worse one. Not if we can learn to appreciate and celebrate diversity.

Sort of thing you see going on down Pak-N-Save, in a small way, I reckon.

And I really don't get the sense down there that folks are trundling around pontificating about prejudice and empathy, or worrying because they're in a minority, or guilt-tripping because they're in a majority.

They're just shopping.

Together.