[able]

This week I've been thinking about what sort of murderous attacks our friendly neighbourhood Islamic nutters would make if only they had the kit. Thankfully the most recent attacks were incompetent but the murderous intention was there.

I think the likelihood of them detonating a dirty nuclear bomb in London is low, but if it succeeded Britain would have severe difficulties. Even if we escaped with a low number of human casualties, the long term effects would be devastating. Millions of people who currently think they are wealthy because of the high value of their house would suddenly find themselves homeless and penniless.

I believe in standing up to the terrorists - - the terrorist threat played no part in our decision to move to New Zealand, but when things like last week’s events happen I can't help feeling glad that we'll be getting away from all of this in New Zealand.

[uk_munros]

With the investigations in Aus this morning, are you sure you are that far away from trouble?

One of the main reasons we are moving is for security; Bush and his mates have really stirred up a global hornets nest in the way they have responded to terrorrists and in their grab for control of oil reserves. As such we all seem to be lumped in as one valid terrorist target. I dont know where is safe really. I guess it is all relative. Yes you are likely to be relatively safer in NZ than London (or Aus for that matter), but you never know. Fiji has had three coups in the recent years....who would have ever thought that would happen?

Just my 2p worth

[Debbie P.]

One thing that concerns me is how well the NZ authorities would respond if under the same level of threat. For all we know, a serious attack may have already been foiled by UK security forces. Do you think the NZ authorities would have the same level of expertise, having not had to build up a wealth of experience like UK intelligence dealing with IRA attacks? Isn't NZ a rather soft target compared to the UK?

I hope not, but who really knows? I don't think anywhere is really safe from those nutters.

[able]

I think most places are soft targets compared with London, but it's London that is repeatedly attacked.

[dharder]

Thankfully the most recent attacks were incompetent but the murderous intention was there.


This round of threats was rather different in that the people committing them appear to be educated. But about a year ago, lots of raids where done all over East London by they police (not just the one in Forest Gate). They arrested a number of people, some only a couple of streets (literally) down from us.

I felt strangely reassured, though, by the knowledge that the suspected potential terrorists went to the same primary school in their days as my children go to now: it is such a cr*& school that no one graduating from it will have the technical, chemical or mathematical know-how to build a functioning bomb, nor will they even be literate enough to read instructions how to do it...

Personally, for me, the threats don't make me want to leave, and I felt strangely 'connected' to London and its inhabitants after the 7/7 bombings.

I keep thinking on the tube everyday though how ironic it would be if something where to happen to me a couple of weeks before leaving the country...

Daniela

[Debbie P.]

Yes, but they may move the focus of their attacks any time - look at Madrid.

I was amazed at how relaxed customs and security are at NZ airports - nice that they are in such times, but what an easy target.

Just my opinion, and yes, I can understand your desire to get as far from London as possible - believe me! I lived there for 10 years and still have vivid memories of lying on the floor of a tube train in the dark thanks to a suspect IRA bomb, wondering if I would get out alive.

But I will be just as vigilant in NZ, and probably just as nervous, I'm afraid.

[liamnrach]

One thing that concerns me is how well the NZ authorities would respond if under the same level of threat. For all we know, a serious attack may have already been foiled by UK security forces. Do you think the NZ authorities would have the same level of expertise, having not had to build up a wealth of experience like UK intelligence dealing with IRA attacks? Isn't NZ a rather soft target compared to the UK?

I hope not, but who really knows? I don't think anywhere is really safe from those nutters.

This is an interesting point Debbie. How much involvement does the NZ government have with the Middle East peace process, Telic (Iraq) and Afghanistan? If a country shows no malice towards the muslim people in these and other areas, it follows that the risk from these fantacial organisations would be lower. The fact that the UK has sided with the US in so many ways, (and done so in a particularly public and open way) including the so called war on terror, puts the UK more at risk from these kind of attacks.

I watched 'question time' on BBC1 last night, and a very eloquent 17 year old hit the nail on the head. 'Sort out the Israel/Palestine issue, and the rest will fall into place'. This had the agreement from the entire panel, although they argued over the best way to achieve it! Clinton was so nearly there before he left office, only for the war-monger Bush to take over and follow in his father's footsteps....:mad:

A very complex issue that has the best brains of the world confused and arguing as to the correct solution. But, until one is found the UK and other contries who support the war on terror will remain at risk. When all is said and done, it's religion and religious beliefs that are the main motivators behind most of the fanatical attacks; these people are not idiots at all but following what they believe in, and more worryingly, are prepared to die in the pursuance of thier goal.:uhoh

Worrying times indeed.....

Just my opinion folks, so hopefully I have not stirred up too many bad feelings....:o

Liam

[liamnrach]

I felt strangely reassured, though, by the knowledge that the suspected potential terrorists went to the same primary school in their days as my children go to now: it is such a cr*& school that no one graduating from it will have the technical, chemical or mathematical know-how to build a functioning bomb, nor will they even be literate enough to read instructions how to do it...

Daniella

Doesn't matter...

As long as they know how to access the internet, instructions and directions on how to assemble any sort of device are available these days...sadly...

Liam n Rach

[Belmont Babes]

Well said Liam. Was discussing Question Time with my Mum today...very interesting

[Brad77]

anyone who is not a Muslim is a target. Countries who think that by staying out of the ''war on terror'' will protect them are kidding themselves. Muslim Fundamentalists believe in Jihad against ALL infidels.....ANYONE who is not Muslim MUST DIE!

The world needs to wake up and see what we are facing! This is a major threat to Western Christian civilization. At least Bush is brave enough to say so, even though he made a right mess of all it.

Think Chamberlain....Peace in our time......appeasement DOES NOT WORK. Attack is the best form of defence. Bring back Maggie and Ronnie. The world would be safer with them in charge.

[Jo Jo]

anyone who is not a Muslim is a target.

I am sure the Muslims that died in the terrorist attacks in London 2 years ago will be very glad to hear that.

[Brad77]

a few Muslims.....many infidels.....means justify etc etc....

[uk_munros]

oh dear :-(

[anna_c]

Brad77 - I hope this is a poor attempt at satire :uhoh

[liamnrach]

anyone who is not a Muslim is a target. Countries who think that by staying out of the ''war on terror'' will protect them are kidding themselves. Muslim Fundamentalists believe in Jihad against ALL infidels.....ANYONE who is not Muslim MUST DIE!

The world needs to wake up and see what we are facing! This is a major threat to Western Christian civilization. At least Bush is brave enough to say so, even though he made a right mess of all it.

Think Chamberlain....Peace in our time......appeasement DOES NOT WORK. Attack is the best form of defence. Bring back Maggie and Ronnie. The world would be safer with them in charge.

Hmmm, strong words indeed Brad....

I think you should read this article. It clearly highlights the complexities of this issue, and details the many forms of Jihad that exist. You are correct in stating that Jihad can be interpreted for use in warfare, but there are many others too....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Sunni_view_of_Jihad

It is an interesting read....

Liam

[jo b]

Also please be aware Wikipedia is not vetted in anyway to verify it sources, unlike dictionaries and encyclopedias. So take what you read from there with a bit of caution (not read the link though) it is someones else interpretation/opinion of their meaning of the 'word' researched. Although there are some excellent snippets of info as with any religion it is interpreted by many different people in many different ways and wiki is just giving you a 'few' opinions.


Interesting debate. I agree with Brad, in fact a muslim cleric was on the news very articulate and actually stated that many muslims the world all over need the meaning of the Koran re-educating to muslims and he said the fact is that many moderate muslims in the world actually silently agree with Jihad.
We need to wake up and stop thinking this is muslim debate is racist, Muslim is not a race it is a religion, and in certain cases across the world fanatical at that.

Jo

[Caroline and Dave]

The thing that concerns me the most about this is the fact that most of this latest batch of alleged terrorists are Doctors working for or had worked for the NHS.Doctors are looked on by most people to save lives not take them away. I know 99.95% of Doctors are there to help you but it does put a new view on this.MRSA has become a big thing of late with many dying of this .Years ago it was never heard of. Just a thought.
This is just my own view on this and I apologise if I have upset anyone.

Dave and Caroline

[Lupin]

Think Chamberlain....Peace in our time......appeasement DOES NOT WORK. Attack is the best form of defence. Bring back Maggie and Ronnie. The world would be safer with them in charge.

*speechless*

[Debbie P.]

The thing that concerns me the most about this is the fact that most of this latest batch of alleged terrorists are Doctors working for or had worked for the NHS.Doctors are looked on by most people to save lives not take them away. I know 99.95% of Doctors are there to help you but it does put a new view on this.MRSA has become a big thing of late with many dying of this .Years ago it was never heard of. Just a thought.


I was fascinated by the news that these doctors applied for jobs in Australian hospitals and were turned down because their qualifications were not considered good enough. Evidently good enough for the NHS, eh? :(

It is such a shame - I can just see a situation where patients refuse to be treated by doctors who 'look' Middle Eastern.

Interesting comments, Liam, and to some extent I agree. I just think it would be foolish to assume that countries like NZ will be left well alone because they are perceived to have kept out of the middle east problem. After all, as one former member of a Jihadi movement was saying on Newsnight last week (in UK), those fanatics see themselves as attacking a way of life, not just a political affiliation, e.g. if a woman goes to a night club, she is 'loose' and deserves to be punished, and Western society as a whole needs to be replaced with a 'good' Islamic way of life etc. That's not my interpretation, it's what he said, and he used to go along with such attitudes himself, so he must know.

But I don't agree with Brad's views at all (were they serious?). This needs to be addressed strongly through education, and it needs to be addressed by the Islamic leaders THEMSELVES. They desperately need to sort out their own problems before the whole world is destroyed by them.

I used to work with a former Muslim (converted to Christianity but the rest of her family still moderate Muslims), and while I don't pretend to understand the full situation, one thing she said has always struck me. I put her views in quotes to show that they are not mine: "that Islam as a religion HAS to update itself in the same way that other religions particularly Christianity have had to update themselves to suit society (e.g. women priests etc). Otherwise, it will destroy itself (I'm talking about genuine, peaceful Islamic beliefs here). The trouble is, there's no basis for that 'updating' in Islam - the words of Mohammed CANNOT be interpreted to suit modern times, unlike the words of Jesus or the Jewish prophets. And therein lies the problem."

I'm no Muslim and have to stress that I am only going by the views of one (lapsed) Muslim who may have axes to grind, but if that is true, it is certainly worrying.

[Croft]

A friend of mine, far cleverer than I, has done a considerable amount of research into the current Islamic situation. Traditionally the Arab world has been very 'Egypt' centred. The equivalent of RP in Arabic was Egyptian Arabic. The accepted interpretation of the Koran was that which was debated and followed in Egypt.

Steadily the influence of Saudi Arabia has risen, especially since th4e oil shock of the 1970s. It's oil revenues (driven by the West) has created enormous wealth. It has, so my friend says, therefore been able to spread it's own much more hard line interpretation of the Koran (incidentally I do not personally refer to them as fundamentalist but follow the academic of governmental designation of Islamists). Their wealth has allowed them to fund the building of Mosque's abroad, as long they follow the Saudi interpretation of the Koran. It is this that has created a minority of Islamists willing to sacrifice themselves for what they perceive to be a religious war on the West.

There was a very interesting interview with the Islamist who heckled John Prescott, the Deputy PM in the UK, a while back on BBC Radio 4. I was staggered. His belief was that the world belonged to Allah, and therefore all should be converted to Islam. Other view were even more extreme.

Going back to the original question - no, terrorism isn't driving us ouit of the UK. However, I am worried that NZ perceives itself as not being under threat. With people holding views like those above it will only be a matter of time. NZ have troops in Afghanistan (in the much quieter North thankfully for them) and I have no doubt that should the opportunity present itself Islamists would attack NZ or NZ interests.

I do agree with Brad77 that appeasement does not work. However, victory in all other campaigns has not come through the use of just political or military might, but through a variety of approaches including dialogue, however distasteful the people you are talking with may be, and force. Any eventual outcome must include both the carrot and the stick.

[markmurphy]

Reading this, I am a little worried about the level of ignorance and racism shown by some of the contributors.

It may be interesting to know that one of the biggest hauls of firearms and chemical weapons materials ever found in the UK was made earlier this year, but barely appeared in the news. Two men from Lancashire were being questioned about the "... rocket launchers, chemicals, BNP literature and a nuclear biological suit." found at one of their homes.

And why was this not in the news you wonder? I can only think that the fact the men were white, Christian BNP members made the story not fit in with the national agenda.

It's about time that people grew up and realised that in any cross-section of society you take (whether that be based on colour, religion, qualifications, height etc.) you will always get a proportion of idiots, geniuses, extremists but the vast majority of human beings are NORMAL PEOPLE just like you and me.

If you want to live in a happier world, spread peace and love to others by being loving and peaceful yourself. And stand up and be counted where injustice is seen. And if you want to stop people from the middle east hating the west, do what you can to stop the genocide of the Palestinian people.

http://www.pendletoday.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=8&ArticleID=1806619
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6080278.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,330135269-110687,00.html
http://www.chris-floyd.com/Articles/Articles/News_Flash%3A_Chemical_Weapon_Terrorist_Plot_Thwar ted_in_the_UK!/

[DSC]

Thanks for your unbiased and non political views on this subject markmurphy.
I am sure that there are other forums that are liable to listen to your diatribe.

I am not.

[Debbie P.]

[QUOTE=markmurphy;140095]Reading this, I am a little worried about the level of ignorance and racism shown by some of the contributors.

A little harsh, I think.

It may be interesting to know that one of the biggest hauls of firearms and chemical weapons materials ever found in the UK was made earlier this year, but barely appeared in the news. Two men from Lancashire were being questioned about the "... rocket launchers, chemicals, BNP literature and a nuclear biological suit." found at one of their homes.

And why was this not in the news you wonder? I can only think that the fact the men were white, Christian BNP members made the story not fit in with the national agenda.

As a Christian myself, I take exception with the above comment - these men may well have been BNP, but they can't be "Christian" as well - believe me, the 2 are NOT compatible. I think a fair number of Christians from other nations, including those from the African church, would find that notion totally offensive.

It's about time that people grew up and realised that in any cross-section of society you take (whether that be based on colour, religion, qualifications, height etc.) you will always get a proportion of idiots, geniuses, extremists but the vast majority of human beings are NORMAL PEOPLE just like you and me.

I don't think many people on this forum need to be told that :confused:

If you want to live in a happier world, spread peace and love to others by being loving and peaceful yourself. And stand up and be counted where injustice is seen. And if you want to stop people from the middle east hating the west, do what you can to stop the genocide of the Palestinian people.

Totally agree, but it's not a one-sided debate. What about the less reported genocides being carried out in the name of Islam in Sudan, Indonesia etc? It's not always about 'Western' nations killing those from 'Eastern' nations.

And, by the way, your comments about others on this forum are not particularly loving or peaceful! You may disagree with the comments of others, as I do, but you don't have to be insulting about it.

[markmurphy]

Sorry, I just re-read my post. Never post in anger huh? I didn't mean to offend the vast majority of people on this site but I was really hacked off by some of the nastiness shown at least one of the other posts. I'm just fed up with the constant Muslim / immigrant bashing that goes on the UK today.

As for being harsh by calling some posters ignorant and racist then I can only quote at you from Brad:

"Think Chamberlain....Peace in our time......appeasement DOES NOT WORK. Attack is the best form of defence. Bring back Maggie and Ronnie. The world would be safer with them in charge. "


As for the Christian comment, I was merely relaying a statement from Reuters that Robert Cottage was "...a self proclaimed Christian...". I know full well that Christianity, like Judaism, Islamism etc. all teach there followers to respect life and each other. However my point was if the men in question were Muslim, I feel there would have been far more coverage of this in the press.

Sorry if I offended anyone, maybe I need a beer...

[anna_c]

Reading this, I am a little worried about the level of ignorance and racism shown by some of the contributors.

It may be interesting to know that one of the biggest hauls of firearms and chemical weapons materials ever found in the UK was made earlier this year, but barely appeared in the news. Two men from Lancashire were being questioned about the "... rocket launchers, chemicals, BNP literature and a nuclear biological suit." found at one of their homes.

And why was this not in the news you wonder? I can only think that the fact the men were white, Christian BNP members made the story not fit in with the national agenda.

It's about time that people grew up and realised that in any cross-section of society you take (whether that be based on colour, religion, qualifications, height etc.) you will always get a proportion of idiots, geniuses, extremists but the vast majority of human beings are NORMAL PEOPLE just like you and me.

If you want to live in a happier world, spread peace and love to others by being loving and peaceful yourself. And stand up and be counted where injustice is seen. And if you want to stop people from the middle east hating the west, do what you can to stop the genocide of the Palestinian people.

http://www.pendletoday.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=8&ArticleID=1806619
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6080278.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,330135269-110687,00.html
http://www.chris-floyd.com/Articles/Articles/News_Flash%3A_Chemical_Weapon_Terrorist_Plot_Thwar ted_in_the_UK!/

Mark - I wouldn't have put it as strongly as you - there's only one post I'd have referred to as ignorant and racist, but there are a few which show misinformation and false assumptions - but I totally agree with the content of your post. Thank you.

As to those saying that they weren't Christian - there are as many flavours of Christianity as there are Islam. If these Nazis aren't Christian then the Al Qaeda bombers aren't muslim. Or, as I think, they are both one flavour of those religions which doesn't represent the majority. But you can't have it both ways.

[Jo Jo]

Good posts. Mark and Anna.

[DSC]

I can only sit here and wonder at the naive and blinkered views of some people.
I originally came on here to gather the fantastic information available from users here. The last 2 posts have made me wonder if I even want to be a part of this Forum any more.

[caseyjones]

Anna, I don't think anyone is trying to have it both ways. I think the reason Islam is mentioned by most people is not a nasty plot to be beastly to Muslims but because Islam is at the core of the bombers lives. They are murdering explicitly in the name of Islam, as they interpret it. There is no equivalent "Christian" terrorist movement in the UK plotting mass-murder in the name of Jesus. The Church of England doesn't have splinter groups trying to blow up night-clubs full of women for dressing or behaving in unbiblical ways. Unfortunately, the Islamic world does. So I don't think anyone is trying to have it both ways.

As far as the original question goes terrorism has not influenced our decision to move.

[Debbie P.]

Anna, I don't think anyone is trying to have it both ways. I think the reason Islam is mentioned by most people is not a nasty plot to be beastly to Muslims but because Islam is at the core of the bombers lives. They are murdering explicitly in the name of Islam, as they interpret it. There is no equivalent "Christian" terrorist movement in the UK plotting mass-murder in the name of Jesus. The Church of England doesn't have splinter groups trying to blow up night-clubs full of women for dressing or behaving in unbiblical ways. Unfortunately, the Islamic world does. So I don't think anyone is trying to have it both ways.

As far as the original question goes terrorism has not influenced our decision to move.

Totally agree - I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that all Muslims are potential terrorists.

Yes, and getting back to the initial question, it hasn't made me want to move abroad, but I do have sympathy for the London commuters - it can't be pleasant travelling on the tube or buses these days.

[Debbie P.]

I can only sit here and wonder at the naive and blinkered views of some people.
I originally came on here to gather the fantastic information available from users here. The last 2 posts have made me wonder if I even want to be a part of this Forum any more.

DSC, I've PMed you.

[aberdian]

I can only sit here and wonder at the naive and blinkered views of some people.
I originally came on here to gather the fantastic information available from users here. The last 2 posts have made me wonder if I even want to be a part of this Forum any more.
And pray enlighten us on your fabulously worldly and unblinkered views?

[able]

And pray enlighten us on your fabulously worldly and unblinkered views?

I'd rather DSC (and others) didn't. There's always going to be disagreement about politics and religion and no one really feels happy with these interminable (and unwinnable) arguments. As the person who started this thread (and sort of wishes he hadn't) could I make a polite request to get it back on topic and ask again "Has the terrorist threat had any influence on your decision to move?"

[aberdian]

Am now zipping it. I am old enough to know better, just things get my goat every now and again.

In answer, yes and no. It's not a driver but is a "phew, well out of that mess" kind of thought.

[Debbie P.]

I'd rather DSC (and others) didn't. There's always going to be disagreement about politics and religion and no one really feels happy with these interminable (and unwinnable) arguments. As the person who started this thread (and sort of wishes he hadn't) could I make a polite request to get it back on topic and ask again "Has the terrorist threat had any influence on your decision to move?"

:clap :clap :clap

Good idea, wish I hadn't got involved either - should know better by now :o

It's such a minefield though, isn't it? I can fully understand why phrases like 'Islamic nutters' and 'bring back Thatcher' can start these heated debates off. No offence intended to anyone who did use those phrases, I know I'm as guilty as the next person -just trying to say that I do understand why Mark & others got heated, especially as I also got heated about Mark's comment re Christians.

Don't mind me - I really need a glass of wine... and I can't have one with this baby on the way - grr!

[DSC]

@ aberdian,
Thanks for that, then you should be old enough to appreciate that the world does not centre around you and your beliefs.
If you should like to continue with this debate then I suggest that you PM me.

[markmurphy]

Sorry for never really answering the question...

I don't feel particularly threatened by any bomb threats but then I don't live in a large city any more (although there is an MOD site next door, eek!). But I do think that there is an increasing risk to the UK and it's citizens from a larger scale attack from terrorists.
The odd bomb (be it chemical or dirty) doesn't worry me now any more than it did when the IRA were doing it (chances of being involved or family being involved are really, really small). And I really don't think we'll see a biological attack in our lifetime.
I do think, though, that there is a bigger chance of a more 'intelligent' co-ordinated attack that really could affect our everyday lives. The IRA were keen to 'raise awareness' of their views on Ireland. Extremists with their skewered view of Islam may want to exhort some sort of revenge (in their view) for what they seem as crimes against Islam. This could involve things such as disruption to the petroleum industry or electricity generation in the UK, both of which would cause major problems, panic and rioting for the population if they were affected for even a few days.

Does this make me want to go to NZ even more? Probably, but it's really due to a combination of things. I feel less safe here than a few years ago (although I think I am technically as safe now as I have ever been). So although I don't feel threatened directly by a bomb outside my house (unless I keep causing trouble on forums!) I am much more aware of not going to 'obvious' targets any more than I have to.
I am not happy with the loss of civil liberties that ID cards, detention without trial, removal of the right to protest etc. bring. I think we (the UK) do a lot of things around the world to try to make it a better place, but these things are outweighed (in my opinion) by things we do that make things worse.

But then I am probably more influenced by my view that NZ seems a nicer / safer / cleaner / more 'innocent' (no offence to Kiwis by that) place to bring up my children (when I have them). Also I think NZ will cope with global warming implications better than the UK in the long run and seems to be trying to make some serious plans to become the first carbon neutral country.

Mark

PS Like the hair Anna, is it like that in real life too?

[aberdian]

@ aberdian,
Thanks for that, then you should be old enough to appreciate that the world does not centre around you and your beliefs.
If you should like to continue with this debate then I suggest that you PM me.
Duly PM'd and I will say no more on this in public apart from this has never been about me or my beliefs as impugned above, and nowhere have I said anything to make anyone believe that my beliefs are one thing or another, and neither will I.
Apologies to all for biting.
Ian.

[Sam B]

Just like to add my support to markmurphy, this is a debate, a debate has 2 sides and each side is as entitled to have and express an opinion. This is not the first time I have been shocked by views expressed by Brad77, and I'm glad there are people prepared to present another side. If threads which encourage debate offend you, simply avoid those threads. Stick to the ones with titles about EOIs or whatever, there is no need to threaten to leave the forum.

[stu70]

Just like to add my support to markmurphy, this is a debate, a debate has 2 sides and each side is as entitled to have and express an opinion. This is not the first time I have been shocked by views expressed by Brad77, and I'm glad there are people prepared to present another side. If threads which encourage debate offend you, simply avoid those threads. Stick to the ones with titles about EOIs or whatever, there is no need to threaten to leave the forum.

That makes two of us (shocked by the views expressed by brad77) and no; it’s not the first time either. As for UK being a target, I am not sure if one can choose a place based on its terror potential. The world today is more unified than ever before and a country might not have a direct attack on its territory, but still suffer as a result of what happens in distant places (damage to the economy, and social upheaval, etc.). In a nutshell, we need better leaders than bush and blairs of the world. We need leadership that builds bridges and makes serious efforts at bringing all the various countries together. No more rambos and cowboys, that’s for sure.