[Tia Maria]

I have some friends (from the UK) who are trying to decide between Canada and NZ and I realised that I have spoken to many people who've emigrated to NZ but their second choice was Canada. The reason they normally give for choosing NZ over Canada in the end is the weather, although I think they said that getting visas for Canada can take a long time.

Anyway they asked me to ask:

1) Why do Canadians choose to go to NZ?
2) Do they look to emigrate forever or just for 5-10years?
3) Which parts of Canada would you say are the easiest parts to successfully emigrate to?
4) Does NZ feel better than Canada to you - or just different?

There were lots of other questions but I won't overwhelm you with them! :D They do know of a Canadian forum but they were interested to get the perspective of people who had experienced both countries.

A little bit about them - they have 2 children 6 & 4. He's in IT, they'd like to be in a family friendly suburb close to a city. Their wants are fairly typical - shorter commute, bigger house and good schools, they do like the UK but the only way they can get those things in the UK at the moment is to be a lot richer!

It would be helpful when you answer if you say which part of Canada you are from and which part of NZ you are in/heading to. As I appreciate Canada is a big country and I'm sure different areas have very different things to offer.

I have of course been selling NZ, but at least if they choose Canada I'll have somewhere good to go on holiday! :laugh

Cheers

Tia

PS I meant to add all opinions welcome, the good the bad and the ugly.

[Howie]

Hi,
I came to NZ mainly because it's a lot like Canada, but still different. I really like it in NZ, but I do miss Canada and I'm sure I'll end up back there someday. I was originally planning on being in NZ 3 to 5 years but now I can see possibly staying longer. I've lived in Ontario and Calgary mostly, but I'd say NZ is most similar to Vancouver Island, but a lot warmer. Yes Canada is cold, but I miss having a "real" winter. It's nice having winter outside and a warm house inside.
I would say that the biggest difference is that NZ can be a bit behind in some ways. It's difficult to find specialty goods that I'm used to. It's also hard to find cheap stuff like books and food. I once talked to a Canadian who said that he missed the "buzz" of Canadian city. It's true that sometimes I feel like I'm living in the boonies, but then again sometimes I like living in the boonies.
NZ and Canada are both stunningly beautiful and people take the time to enjoy nature in both countries. In Canada it's possible to live a snobby cosmopolitan life where you don't know your neighbours and just care about money, but it's also possible to live a nice laid back life in a nice community, close to work and not pay through the teeth for a house. Just because of the size of Canada, I'd say that most people can find something they like. I wouldn't really say any one part of Canada is easier to immigrate to (though Quebec does have different - and easier i think - immigration laws).
Overall I'd say move to Canada - but then I'm probably a bit biased.

Susan

[kanatakiwi]

Ok I will make an attempt at answering this, although I have to qualify by saying firstly that I came to NZ because of my OH being Kiwi, so some comparisons might not be applicable.

I applied for residence here under partnership category, and my OH applied in Canada under the same category, but twelve years earlier. Both seemed the same in terms of ease, but we both got tripped up on the medical and had to get extra work done to pass the medical requirements. The Canadian process seemed more stringent in terms of backing up everything with evidence, lots of reference letters etc. and as I recall, more expensive.

However I note that your friends are in IT and I think they are in demand everywhere so would imagine they would do well on the points scale.

I would definitely say that the west coast of Canada is preferable to anywhere else, but that's my opinion. Weatherwise it has the mildest weather in the country, its rare for it to snow in Vancouver or Victoria for instance, and I have to say I am colder here in Auckland in winter than I ever was there, but thats because of the housing situation here and the never ending wind. Yes its colder in Canada but people know how to deal with cold weather and so with warm, dry housing, its much easier to get through the winter months. You couldnt pay me to live in Ontario or Manitoba though (no offence to anyone from there!...its just too damn cold. )

As you know we have days in Auckland where you can go out in Tshirts in the middle of winter, but its also not that uncommon to see people playing outdoor tennis in January in Victoria. That said, the weather is changing everywhere in the world, so who knows?

Does NZ feel better than Canada to me? NO, not really, its not worse, it is just different. There is lots I love about this country, and lots I miss in Canada. I dont think I would stay forever without my partner, but I love the chance to have a new cultural experience here. (But I don't think that is high on the consideration list for most emigrants)

I think cost of living here is much more than in Canada. For a family this should be a big consideration. You say they want shorter commute, bigger house and good schools, My concern is that for IT jobs you are more likely to end up in a city here where housing costs are atrocious, there are neighbourhoods with good schools, but they are not cheap, so I would do the math. Housing is not cheap in Canada either, but at least where I am from, it has only recently caught up with the property boom that has been going on in Auckland for nearly ten years.

I don't think we would be very well off here, if it wasn't for my Canadian employer funded pension plans, which converts nicely into NZ dollars. (there's also that to consider, there is nothing similar in NZ for retirement, even with the new Kiwisaver plan) Medical is an issue, the two systems are similar, but I think prescriptions are more expensive in Canada, although doctors visits etc are free, and medical insurance is universal and everyone contributes if they are earning a certain income. Here if I need to see a specialist it will cost be at least $200 and I had to pay for medical test I would get for free in Canada. Waitlists for hospital treatment are about the same I think.

The scenery and outdoors lifestyle opportunity here is wonderful but no better than I left behind on Vancouver Island. Victoria at least,( not necessarily the rest of the country) has a thriving rugby and cricket culture, and attracts lots of Brits because they like its "little bit of England" feel.

So I guess I would say the west of Canada could be very attractive to them as emigrants, and so could NZ, it really comes down to what you want and what you can get. I think anyone could be happy here if they decide to make a go of it, and the same could be said about Canada.

Hope some of this will be helpful, please feel free to PM me if you or they have more questions.
Gloria

[srivett]

I haven't made the move to Christchurch yet, so my more informed answer will have to wait a few months, but I can make a small contribution, I think :) Keep in mind that everything I'm saying is based on living in Ontario.

I didn't move to Canada until I was 10, so I have a fairly vivid memory of what it's like to move to Canada, in the same way that I'm now moving to New Zealand. As an Aussie, I found the winter pretty unbearable from the start - especially since we left Adelaide in the middle of summer and landed in Ontario in the middle of a snowstorm. The winters have been getting milder since then, but they're still a serious downer for me. I get depressed a month after the first snow and stay moody until May when the daylight starts to lengthen again. Having the sun setting at 4.30pm, before I even get out of work, when it's also freezing, icy, covered in snow and/or slush, and monotonously white-grey for six months at a time is too much for me. For many people, the climate isn't a major issue - you adjust, and as others have said, Canada is supremely well equipped to deal with winter. The quality of winter clothing is top knotch; indoor malls and entertainments abound; the variety of winter sports is everywhere (ice hockey is a big deal, so be prepared either to get involved or to learn how to avoid it and make good excuses a lot ;)) and the housing is dry, warm, and relatively cheap to heat. If you have a decent house, a car, and work indoors, you hardly ever need to see the outdoors if you don't want to.

Canada, as has been drilled into me since I arrived, is a very multicultural country. In Toronto, where I live now, there are quarters of the city for every culture you can think of: Chinese, Phillipino, Polish, Italian, Serbian, Turkish, Brazilian, Indian. The segregation of those quarters is a different matter entirely, and one I won't get into here, but it's true that walking around the city or on the subway you will see an enormous diversity of people. Sitting on the subway, I frequently hear four or five languages being spoken around me at once. In general, there's wide acceptance of other people and cultures. Canadians go to a lot of effort to be respectful and polite. They're also a bit more formal than say the Brits or the Aussies, imo. PCness is a big thing, and so everything gets talked in circles a lot - on a personal level as well as the provincial and national levels. If I had to give Canada a personality, it would be 'nice'. Customer service is usually pretty good. Tenants have a lot of rights. There's welfare housing and charity work and public health care and it's all very community-oriented. The standard of living is high, and even better if you can afford private healthcare and other insurance.

The education system in Ontario is sub-par in my opinion, at least at the primary and secondary levels. The curriculum isn't very rigorous, and most people get a big shock when they move up to tertiary education. Teachers aren't very happy in their jobs in general, and it's noticeable in the quality of the teaching. Private schools don't raise the standards much - I attended both a public high school and a private one, and while there was some difference, it mostly came as a result of the smaller class sizes and more personal attention, not from the curriculum itself. Class sizes in the public sector are getting more and more unmanageable.

Being next to the USA has consequences in every area, and if the nature of that influence has changed in the last ten years, it's still there and always will be. But NZ is deeply involved with Australia in the same way, probably more so, so I guess you can say NZ and Canada share the fact of being married to a dominant, heavy-weight husband. However, Canada is much closer to the rest of the world than NZ, so if your friend wants to travel or visit a lot, they might want to consider Canada instead.

I'm running out of time, so I think I'll end here. I should finish by saying that I always intended to move back to the southern hemisphere, so that's a driving force in my decision to move to NZ. I expect it'll be a permanent move this time. Since Canada and NZ are similar in so many ways - the landscape really is beautiful in both! - it's mostly the weather and the laidbackness of NZ that tips the scales for me. But if your friends choose Canada, they should pick the West coast, really!

Oops, I just realised too late that I didn't actually answer the questions you posed. :o Sorry! I hope this is helpful anyway.

[stu70]

Let us see:
1) Why do Canadians choose to go to NZ?
Variety is the spice of life perhaps? Same reason they try out living in the USA sometimes
2) Do they look to emigrate forever or just for 5-10years?
I have a great offer in NZ by NZ standards. They also would throw in a generous relocation package to boot. Despite all this I am now having serious doubts about the move. You start to picture your life away from Canada and then you realize you have an amazing life already here and that sort of gives me good reason to pause. So my guess is, people might go for a bit but we already are one of the best places in the world so most would eventually come back (again this is based on my circle of friends and family)
3) Which parts of Canada would you say are the easiest parts to successfully emigrate to?
Can't tell. It is great everywhere. I love winters and I love summers, and I dig springs as well as fall (did I miss anything?) so it is upto the person to choose. Our economy rocks and our dollar might surpass greenback in a few months so no reason to restrict your choice to just a few big cities. One should find work anywhere atleast in some key areas like IT
4) Does NZ feel better than Canada to you - or just different?
Can't answer that, I am in Canada

[ruthyroo]

Having just returned from a trip to Canada (Toronto, Niagara and Montreal) I would have to say go to Canada! I know that it's not good to compare somewhere that we've just visited as tourists but I was checking it out as if it were somewhere we would like to live, and comapring it (unfavourably) to NZ a lot of the time... reasons include

1. Yep it gets a lot colder in Canada but Candadian houses are built to withstand it - as Howie says freezing cold winter, warm house - rather than cold wet winter, damp cold house... We met a few Canadians who had spent time living in NZ and the standard of housing in NZ was their No. 1 complaint.

2. Also as Howie says, NZ is behind the times compared to Canada. IMHO the standard of living is higher in Canada in terms of access to a wide choice of goods, and in terms of cost of living - especially 'luxury goods' like books, CDs, cosmetics etc (it says a lot about the influence NZ has had on me that I now consider these to be luxury items!!). Fair enough we were spending GBP when we were in Canada, but even so it seemed pretty cheap, and definitely a lower cost of living than NZ.

3. We did explore the possibility of emigrating to Canada before we came to NZ. My impression was that is was far more difficult / time-consuming to get ito Canada. Mr Rr is a Uk qualified experienced secondary teacher. As such he can meet the requirements to teach in most countries- but not Canada - he would have to have done a masters in education (preferably at a Canadian Uni) before being allowed to apply to register to teach in Canada. And the general impression was that the whole process would take a long time. Whereas for NZ we got issued WP on the spot, and then PR was a breeze to apply for and done within a couple of weeks. Canada seems to be kinda undecided about immigration - there is a lot of angst in the papers about the 'wrong' type of immigrants getting in, but not so much about what type of people Canada is seeking to attract - if any. Maybe they don't actually need more teachers / IT people / etc... but the economies in both Toronto and Montreal seemed to be booming.

Based on this compeletely subjective analysis I would say go to Canada!!

[Tia Maria]

A really big thank you for all your replies they have all been really informative and helpful.

It sounds like Canada - the west coast in particular gets a big thumbs up and I think the fact that its closer to the UK will be an important point to consider, although I think they've seen on a Canadian forum that people don't get much in the way of holidays.

I'll pass on your responses tonight it will be interesting to see what they think but to be perfectly honest you've got me considering Canada now! :laugh

Off to give you all some serious Rep .......

Cheers

Tia

PS Ruthyroo - you'll have to wait 24 hours for yours apparently I've given too much out. :laugh

[kanatakiwi]

Aalthough I think they've seen on a Canadian forum that people don't get much in the way of holidays.



3 or 4 weeks is pretty common for holidays. although I think the Employment Standards Act only legislates for 2 weeks holidays. Also holidays can increase according to your years of service. I worked in government and had six weeks annually by the time I left.

I think IT employers have pretty generous benefit packages as its a competitive industry and its necessary to retain good staff.

[Tia Maria]

Thanks Kanatakiwi, I think that will reassure them as holidays become more important when you are first settling into a new country, if only so you have time to unpack all your boxes.

Hopefully IT firms can also sort out some kind of job related visa as I know the other thing putting them off was the length of time it can take to get a visa as obviously its easier for them to move with younger children.

I think they want to come to the same part of NZ as me, so once they've chosen somewhere specific in Canada it will probably be easier to compare the two.

Cheers

Tia

[Island Moose]

I live on Vancouver Island, which is thought of as Canada's best climate. I have lived in all parts of the country, from coast to coast. Canada is extraordinary, it would take years to see all the sites. Keep in mind that it's the 2nd largest country in the world...everything is a long plane ride away (Halifax is 4 times zones ahead of Victoria). Calgary is a 17 hour drive from Victoria, and Toronto is another 5-6 long days on the highway.

Vancouver Island is pretty and has mild temperatures year round. It rains on the coast from about Christmas Day to late April...pretty much non-stop cloud and gloom. Retirees from other parts of Canada don't mind because at least they can still get out without the fear of slipping on ice and breaking a hip....but it can be exhausting and depressing. Yes it doesn't often snow...but jeez...who cares when you wake up every morning for 2 months to low clouds and drizzle?


In Victoria, a run-down shack will cost you $400K, a new 3-4 bedroom home closer to $600K. Houses continue to increase in paper-value because the banks are giving away money at rates under 6% and everyone is buying. 40 year mortgages are common. Renting a 1-bdrm apartment runs from $800-$1200 month on average but vacancy is less that 1%. Medical care is excellent but with an aging population, free health care is doomed. Universities are all good, and a high percentage of Canadians have undergrad degrees.


BTW, no offense...but only people in government jobs get 3-4 weeks starting vacation, 2 weeks is absolutely the norm. Most people get 3 weeks after 5 years service, and most don;t take what's owed to them anyhow, preferring to just get paid out at the end of the year. Canadians are 3rd in the world for taking the least amount of vacation, behind the USA and Australia.


I can't make any comment on Canada versus NZ because I know nothing about NZ yet.

[suebeenz]

I lived in Vancouver, and so far I'd say that summers feel warmer and longer there than in NZ (this last summer went by waayyy to quickly). Tempatures in the winter are quite similar (depending where you're at in NZ), but as many have stated, houses in NZ are damper and colder. I'm cheap with turning on heat (what's the point with lousy/no insulation and single pane glass), and have often had that realization, "Warmer outside than in!" These cold house experiences could be avoided or improved though by carefully selecting your rental, or investing more money in your house. Housing prices in Greater Vancouver area are crazy, but you get a much higher quality house.

I think taxes are pretty similar, but wages will be higher in Canada, and so is the dollar. (going to pass US dollar soon at this rate). The work cultures seem quite different. I hope I don't offend anyone, but 'mediocrity' seems to be encouraged here. Canada, on the other hand, has the same ratrace feel that most developed countries have. The upside to mediocrity, is more time for fun after work and on the weekends!

Oh, and yes, 2 weeks is standard vacay in my experience in Canada.


.... when are they opening a Tim Horton's here ...

[srivett]

.... when are they opening a Tim Horton's here ...

hehe, I'm going to miss them. No donuts like Canadian donuts.

[stu70]

I lived in Vancouver, and so far I'd say that summers feel warmer and longer there than in NZ (this last summer went by waayyy to quickly). Tempatures in the winter are quite similar (depending where you're at in NZ), but as many have stated, houses in NZ are damper and colder. I'm cheap with turning on heat (what's the point with lousy/no insulation and single pane glass), and have often had that realization, "Warmer outside than in!" These cold house experiences could be avoided or improved though by carefully selecting your rental, or investing more money in your house. Housing prices in Greater Vancouver area are crazy, but you get a much higher quality house.

I think taxes are pretty similar, but wages will be higher in Canada, and so is the dollar. (going to pass US dollar soon at this rate). The work cultures seem quite different. I hope I don't offend anyone, but 'mediocrity' seems to be encouraged here. Canada, on the other hand, has the same ratrace feel that most developed countries have. The upside to mediocrity, is more time for fun after work and on the weekends!

Oh, and yes, 2 weeks is standard vacay in my experience in Canada.


.... when are they opening a Tim Horton's here ...
Heck with that IT Managerial job offer eh, I am comin in to set up a timmy by the bay!On a serious note, if mediocrity is an "in thing" I might fit in rather well :D . You know what they say about the rat race; even if you win you are still a rat. I am tempted to go to NZ just to get that non "rat racy" feeling!

[Howie]

The lack of donuts in NZ, never mind good donuts, is utterly appalling.

[srivett]

But I did find the variety of baked goods much better in NZ. The donuts are incomparable here (Canada), but it's hard to find anything good and fresh that isn't a donut or a muffin. Best custard square I ever had in my life was at a small place just north of Dunedin. I still dream about that custard square...

That's not to say I wouldn't be glad if someone brought a Timmy H to NZ ;) Or even just borrowed some of the recipes!

[kanatakiwi]

mmmmnnnnn. timbits!! :clap

[Howie]

you're right about the baked goods. i'm embarrassed at how much time i spend at my local bakery. they're gong to think i'm a regular. is there something wrong with a daily eclair and fruit tart?

[Tia Maria]

Island Moose wrote:

Vancouver Island is pretty and has mild temperatures year round. It rains on the coast from about Christmas Day to late April...pretty much non-stop cloud and gloom. Retirees from other parts of Canada don't mind because at least they can still get out without the fear of slipping on ice and breaking a hip....but it can be exhausting and depressing. Yes it doesn't often snow...but jeez...who cares when you wake up every morning for 2 months to low clouds and drizzle?

If its a popular retirement destination does that also mean it has an ageing community feel? Is there a San Fransciso of Canada?

I've still not heard back from my friends but if IT work was available in Vancouver, is there an obvious commuter family friendly suburb that I could suggest they look into, so they have something to compare to an Auckland suburb?

suebeenz wrote:

Canada, on the other hand, has the same ratrace feel that most developed countries have. The upside to mediocrity, is more time for fun after work and on the weekends!

Oh, and yes, 2 weeks is standard vacay in my experience in Canada.

Bit of a killer that 2 weeks holiday thing, you say more time for fun after work - what's a typical working day, 9-5?

Mmmmmm Donuts.......

Cheers

Tia

[kanatakiwi]

I have to say (again), although 2 weeks is the legislated minimum vacation period, none of my friends in IT have less than 3 weeks and some have more. 2 weeks is basic for entry level and hospitality work, but for something like IT which is in high demand, there is usually a very good benefit package and 2 weeks certainly wouldn't cut it. One friend has a gym with personal trainer at the work site as part of his benefits package, etc etc.

[Tia Maria]

kanatakiwi wrote:

One friend has a gym with personal trainer at the work site as part of his benefits package, etc etc.

Is that to help with the donut consumption? :laugh

Thanks for clearing up the holiday issue for IT jobs! :nice1

Cheers

Tia

[srivett]

is there something wrong with a daily eclair and fruit tart?

Heck no. I'm a dessert fiend! I say take what you can get :nice1

My 2c on the vacation time: I still have 2 weeks after 3 years of working at my publishing company. That wouldn't be likely to change even if I were staying on. My vote is for a regular four-day work week, but no one's taking me up on that.

[Caniwi]

Heck with that IT Managerial job offer eh, I am comin in to set up a timmy by the bay!On a serious note, if mediocrity is an "in thing" I might fit in rather well :D . You know what they say about the rat race; even if you win you are still a rat. I am tempted to go to NZ just to get that non "rat racy" feeling!

I'll help with Timmy Ho!!!!
To get out of the "rat race" is exactly why I'm returning to NZ with my Canadian hubby.