[Moorf]

Last one for this week - Gangs.

I see a lot of news stories about gangs - drive by shootings (i.e that little girl shot on her sofa a few months back), revenge killings, P-production and in-fighting between rival gangs (I think the mains ones are called Mongrel Mob and Black Power - pls correct me if I'm wrong).

I know there are gang elements across NZ and I was totally unaware of this before we came here. I also didn't realise just how far down in to society it seemed to go - even round here you don't just start talking about the Mongrel Mob or B.Power - people look startled and do that sort of "look around to see who heard you" action.

However, apart from the news it doesn't affect me, or my immediate environment. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the gangs to know their roots etc, often that helps in understanding these groups.

Does the gang culture in NZ affect you and your lives? Does it worry you when you see it on the news or is it so localised as to only affect you if you live in the "wrong" area?

[willsken]

I'll add a bit to this one. The gangs in Hawke's Bay seem to be mainly Maori. I was listening to a lady speaking about the issue on the radio last week and she seems to think that it is an American influence and some Maori are looking for something to identify with and this happened to be it. Her opinion but I think it’s a much bigger issue.

I find the whole subject fascinating and as I work with some of the Bloods at school, I feel it’s my duty to gain some sort of understanding in order to have, or at least try to have, a positive influence on their lives.

This is a very interesting article for anyone interested.
http://www.nzedge.com/features/ar-denis01.html

Now, more importantly for people on the forum who haven’t arrived, how big an issue is it in our everyday lives. So far for us, as a family, gangs have had no influence….. none what so ever. On the odd occasion you see a few youngsters in their colours in town, not often though. I have walked past them and felt no threat from them at all. They have a gang house on the outskirts of town where they all hang out and although we have driven past it on many occasion, I have never even seen movement in there.

In school there are a few members of the Bloods, these are the young version of the Mongrel Mob, the wanabes. They stick to themselves and don’t cause problems for the other kids in school. The only threat they seem to represent are to other Maori kids by trying to drag them into the gang scene. I have a boy in my form that is heavily involved, he’s a good enough kid but his father died when he was young and his mum is very poorly. He seems to get the support he needs from this life.

So should it put you off coming to live in the town where I live? Absolutely not. Here at least, they just don’t cause any problems.

Be interested to hear anyone else’s comments about their towns.

[phatsharpie]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but are there a lot of skinheads in New Zealand? I remember reading about some skinheads bashing a tourist in Wellington a week or so back. And I've read somewhere that there is are a lot of skinheads in Christchurch.

Brian

[willsken]

I can report that I haven't seen any here in Hawke's Bay in the 7 months we've been here. There are loads of others on the forum from this area and I sure they can add to this if they have a difference experience.

[willsken]

This is a paper on gangs in NZ.

http://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/publications/msd/journal/issue14/14-nz-youth-gangs.doc

[nippa&pippa]

I have not see any gangs in christchurch yet too Moorf.
But my sister unfortunately experienced lots of gang wars at her schools where she teach. Mostly at school in south auckland where she had experienced "shut down" lots mean teachers on hearing alarm warnings, had to lock up their own classroom to keep their school children safety during bad attacks or got gunmen escaped from nearby...
She now in north of auckland's school and got some children belong to gangs in her school but rarely "shut down" compare with south auckland where lots of gangs lived...mostly of them are maori.

[jubjub]

My friend was doing her groceries at Botany the other day (mid afternoon, with her daughter) and there was a large group of Black power members wandering round, making unsavoury comments to the female staff and generally being very loud & obnoxious. She felt a bit threatened by the atmosphere, and finished up pretty quick.

Personally not come across it, but we are reasonably close to Otara/Otahuhu/Flatbush which are known to be trouble spots.

[willsken]

But my sister unfortunately experienced lots of gang wars at her schools

In this sense we are fortunate that we only have the one gang in our town, so gang wars aren't an issue. Maybe more of an issue in the larger towns or cities where there is gang rivalry. :(

[KD17]

There are gangs around Wellington, I'm told they are in mainly around the Porirua district, where we live, but as yet we have not come into contact with them.

We had a drive out to Masterton one Sunday and saw a few Mongrel Mobs there, and I must confess I did feel a bit intimidated, although Keith wasn't at all.

From my extremely limited understanding they tend to fight amongst themselves ?? (although this may yet be another myth?)

Keith works with someone who lives in the same street as some gang members, and they don't bother him, but he's a strapping big Army rugby player, so that may have an impact why not :)

Generally walking around Wellington city centre (CBD) we have not yet seen or come into contact with any gang members. It would certainly influence our decision as to where we live if we knew some members lived nearby.

Keith & Debby

[ellenmelon]

From my extremely limited understanding they tend to fight amongst themselves ?? (although this may yet be another myth?)

thats true to some extent, yeah. its like a lot of gangs/family feuding...any aggro is directed towards their rivals and they dont bother with anybody else really, unless you do something to offend them or whatever..

[gil]

We have not seen any impact from gangs at all where we are (Howick). I wouldn't know what the gang colours are and don't think I've ever seen any on the streets.

Nor skinheads.

Gil

[thepiesleys]

Although the vast majority of ex pats will not have any involvement or become a victim to gang or gang culture they are an endemic social problem in NZ.

In this instance everyone who choses to live in NZ should be aware of there existence and what they do. If they only try to recruit maori children or island children then that is one more to add to the list of lost people, another burden on society and yet more reason for pakehas to moan about 'brown' people. A vicious circle that will only get larger in my view.

From my limited experience they do seem to maintain there activities amongst themselves and there areas, which are obviously the pooreer areas and districts. But tell that to the young girl who was shot in Wanganui.

I have had contact with gang members when I played rugby against East Tamaki in East Auckland. They were hard but fair on the pitch, and provided an excellent feed after the game - traditional Samoan fayre, and plenty of beers and chat. The after match speeches were interesting though. The opening gambit from the East Tamaki representative was 'Thank you to Pakuranga (my club) for coming here today, were very pleased as we have gone to your houses to steal all your stuff"

Cue much laughter at the self depracation on show, but that self depracation must have had roots.

I find the whole gang situation interesting and appaling in equal measures, I can't understand why the government don't make it harder for them to operate.

[Moorf]

I don't think I've seen any gang members on my travels, I've only personally met the brother of a gang member who moved to the south island to get away from the gang environment.

I believe there is an element of skinheads in Chch, and Chch has a reputation for being "racist" (for want of a better word, racist is such harsh term - I don't see this side of it myself, I just believe they express what they think without hiding behind PC-terms).

The Canterbury Plains (where we live) are, imho and experience, very white which probably explains, to some extent, the lack of gang activity round here.

To be honest, I'm not sure how a gang member would come off against a local cocker (farmer)....!!!!!


*looks around to see if anyone watched me type that....*

[ellenmelon]

I don't think I've seen any gang members on my travels, I've only personally met the brother of a gang member who moved to the south island to get away from the gang environment.

I believe there is an element of skinheads in Chch, and Chch has a reputation for being "racist" (for want of a better word, racist is such harsh term - I don't see this side of it myself, I just believe they express what they think without hiding behind PC-terms).

The Canterbury Plains (where we live) are, imho and experience, very white which probably explains, to some extent, the lack of gang activity round here.

To be honest, I'm not sure how a gang member would come off against a local cocker (farmer)....!!!!!


*looks around to see if anyone watched me type that....*

by cocker, do you mean cocky? :D thats the only way ive ever heard a farmer be described when he's not named as a farmer..

[Moorf]

Gawd yes, mind you, typo could have been much, much worse !! :confused:

[Sam B]

Not spotted any gang activity in Cambridge, but I work in Tokoroa which is meant to have quite a lot of gang problems. However, I have never seen any sign of it, I just see very poor people trying to get by, but no evidence of anything threatening.

[Super_BQ]

I think there needs to be a distinction of what type of 'gang' we refer to? Typically the public views gangs are those that cause trouble in the streets doing petty crimes - grafitti to theft. Then there are the 'organised crime' gangs that the majority of us will never see or hear.

I've heard about the Mungral and skinhead gangs in NZ but don't know their true nature. Are they organised? What's their purpose? What keeps them going?

The ones I would be more concerned about are the young juvenille kids that walk the streets doing petty crimes such as grafitti and theftwork. Their actions directly affect the community and serve a different purpose to the organised types.

Those that are familiar with the Hell's Angel's Gang will know that they are a truely organised crime group. You could say they are too smart for the police. Quite often they don't directly do the dirty work but instead, they employ "chapter" syndicates to do the deeds - this way the police can never hold any Hell's Angel's member accountable.

Some years ago in Canada, the RCMP announced they would directly attack the Hell's Angel's Gang. In the small town where I grew up was a local chapter gang called the Renegades. These members were comprised of local no good people - often those that were highschool drop outs and from troubled famlies. Anyways, the RCMP managed a big bust confiscating all sorts of illegal assult weapons to mass amounts of drugs. Many members of the Renegades went to jail and sortly after, many people went missing or killed mafia style. You can read all about it here (http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/observer/story.html?id=f525bc8a-d80a-4ece-9ffc-f5a2a55a43b0).

I suppose the real question is what kind of gangs are we seeing in NZ? The organised type or the young punks in the street type? IMO, if it's the organised type, I don't believe their prescent in NZ is strong enough to have people to worry about. Afterall, they're only businessmen - if the public doesn't buy their drugs, then they would pull out of the NZ market and focus on big countries.

It could be worse in other nations where shop owners have to pay a 'protection fee' to the local mafia instead of buying a private insurance plan. I don't think any developed nation has gangs to this level yet.

[Moorf]

IMO, if it's the organised type, I don't believe their prescent in NZ is strong enough to have people to worry about. Afterall, they're only businessmen - if the public doesn't buy their drugs, then they would pull out of the NZ market and focus on big countries.

Fab summary, thank you.

The gangs I was referring to were indeed the organised type, I personally haven't had any experience of the petty streetgangs altho you do see large gatherings of car-drivers more than, imho, gangs of kids on corners of streets (except those little huddles of "hoodies" to use a Hot Fuzz term (!) that you get almost anywhere),

Mind you, the only things that gather in big groups round this way are sheep. ;) I suspect city dwellers have a better handle on street gangs than me!

Moorf

[gil]

It could be worse in other nations where shop owners have to pay a 'protection fee' to the local mafia instead of buying a private insurance plan. I don't think any developed nation has gangs to this level yet.

Er, Italy?

Sorry if I've misunderstood you :o


Gil

[willsken]

Fab summary, thank you.

The gangs I was referring to were indeed the organised type, I personally haven't had any experience of the petty streetgangs
Moorf

That is my understanding of the gang problems here. They control the drugs market and are not the petty street gangs that are a menace to our every day lives. Obviously a menace to rival gangs and the poor kids roped in though. :no

Although you see the tyre marks on the roads and hear the odd loud engine I haven't been bothered by hoons where we live.

[willsken]

Er, Italy?

Sorry if I've misunderstood you :o


Gil

USA, UK? Happens in these countries as well.

Just 3 of many hundreds of links.:(

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,841749,00.html

http://www.blink.org.uk/pdescription.asp?key=1667&grp=55

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/news/story/0,,2097291,00.html

[Super_BQ]

With some online research, yeh I was surprised about the mafia's presense in Italy. I guess that would have a big impact on the store owners. I wonder if these 'insurance premiums?' are tax deductable?

BQ

[willsken]

I suppose the real question is what kind of gangs are we seeing in NZ? The organised type or the young punks in the street type? IMO, if it's the organised type, I don't believe their prescent in NZ is strong enough to have people to worry about. Afterall, they're only businessmen - if the public doesn't buy their drugs, then they would pull out of the NZ market and focus on big countries.


Sadly BQ, people do buy the drugs. I was reading an article the other day in which there were saying that to kill the drugs trade to a great extent, NZ should legalise cannabis. That's a debate that has been going on in the UK for years.

[Caroline and Dave]

I was reading an article the other day in which there were saying that to kill the drugs trade to a great extent, NZ should legalise cannabis. That's a debate that has been going on in the UK for years.

The latest this week in the UK, is that the government are talking about increasing cannabis to a class B drug having previously downgraded it to a class C. I don't think there is any chance that they are going to legalise it.
http://www.itv.com/news/a9cb552fb24a68b578e392ce7993ef59.html

[willsken]

mmmmm, wish they'd make their mind up. :roll :roll :roll

[Super_BQ]

I watched an interesting program last week titled "In Pot We Trust (http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle_blog/2007/jul/18/showtimes_in_pot_we_trust_is_a_m)". It provides a very convincing argument of the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes.

Those that are interested in viewing, they can torrent it here (http://isohunt.com/torrents/?ihq=In+Pot+We+Trust) (I hope this is allowed to be posted?)

My concern is what will the gangs do once you take away their main trade through legalising marijuana? Will they focus on more harder drugs such as heroin and cocaine, or do more organised crime killings?

What I find really disturbing about this documentary is they make no mention of the (99%?) citizens that smoke marijuana for recreational purposes. People who clearly are not sick but have chronic use of marijuana on a daily basis. There's no mention of how normal people turn out over the long term use of this drug.

I've witness so many friends (in BC) that started smoking it in highschool and eventually progress to harder drugs like cocain. It's the start of the 1st high and then gradually progressing to a bigger or better high with harder drugs. On the same token, i've never seen any of my high school peers that smoked marijuana and later managed to finish univeristy.

I would be a horse of a different colour if I believed smoking marijuana meant better academics at school (or job performance).

[stu70]

I watched an interesting program last week titled "In Pot We Trust (http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle_blog/2007/jul/18/showtimes_in_pot_we_trust_is_a_m)". It provides a very convincing argument of the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes.

Those that are interested in viewing, they can torrent it here (http://isohunt.com/torrents/?ihq=In+Pot+We+Trust) (I hope this is allowed to be posted?)

My concern is what will the gangs do once you take away their main trade through legalising marijuana? Will they focus on more harder drugs such as heroin and cocaine, or do more organised crime killings?

What I find really disturbing about this documentary is they make no mention of the (99%?) citizens that smoke marijuana for recreational purposes. People who clearly are not sick but have chronic use of marijuana on a daily basis. There's no mention of how normal people turn out over the long term use of this drug.

I've witness so many friends (in BC) that started smoking it in highschool and eventually progress to harder drugs like cocain. It's the start of the 1st high and then gradually progressing to a bigger or better high with harder drugs. On the same token, i've never seen any of my high school peers that smoked marijuana and later managed to finish univeristy.

I would be a horse of a different colour if I believed smoking marijuana meant better academics at school (or job performance).

I would not go so far as to link pot use with harder drug abuse down the pike. It is not necessarily that simple. I personally do not smoke and have never tried pot but a ton of my classmates have and many of them today are running very successful businesses, are doctors, programmers etc. On the topic of Gangs, this is primarily a socio economic issue and has very little to do with ethnicity. It is another story that minorities find themselves in the poorest part of the society and hence the desire on some "enlightened" folks to make that connection between race and crime. And to give you some perspective, the majority of the gang members of established "clubs" in Canada happen to be white (for the most part) so if you think you are safe living in a neighbourhood that is free from "ethnics" you are out of luck! It might be different for other countries.

[willsken]

On the topic of Gangs, this is primarily a socio economic issue and has very little to do with ethnicity. It is another story that minorities find themselves in the poorest part of the society and hence the desire on some "enlightened" folks to make that connection between race and crime. And to give you some perspective, the majority of the gang members of established "clubs" in Canada happen to be white (for the most part) so if you think you are safe living in a neighbourhood that is free from "ethnics" you are out of luck! It might be different for other countries.

It is the same in the UK, gangs are from all ethnic groups. Don't know enough about gangs in NZ, only read about the ones that I come across, Mongrel Mob and Black Power who just happen to be Maori. It goes without saying that they only involve a tiny portion of the Maori population and the vast majority of Maori I know hate the gang culture.

Have to say I don't know many regular pot smokers, in fact only one and he smokes it a lot. His short term memory over the years has grown shockingly bad. :no

[Moorf]

For a bit of history and insight in to the gangs in New Zealand you might want to watch Ross Kemp's five-part video on NZ Gangs - it's on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSclO8suF6Y = part one - the rest are in the links on the right of the video.

The views expressed in the vids aren't mine, so please don't interrogate me after watching them. :D

[Island Moose]

I think several people have said this already, but street gangs like this are born out of poverty... power struggles for the control of trivial things like neighborhoods and street corners. Organized drug dealers use gangs like junior employees to move their product and protect market share.

Like gangs in Canada and the USA, minority-based gangs like this tend to feed on each other, making life that much more miserable in the slums.

The Hells Angels are a different thing altogether, those guys are very very wealthy, and are rarely directly involved in crime.

[StevieD]

It is interesting to hear the Maori call themselves "black" as they seem to associate themselves with the whole black culture thing, rap music, bling, bro this and that. I cannot understand why they aren't themselves and proud to be MAORI.

[ruthyroo]

Interesting topic.

Mr Rr's first teaching job here was in Rotorua, an area known for its high Maori population, perceived high crime rate and gang problems (as well as beautiful lakes, geothermal wonders, nice people and fascinating Maori culture - this is not a downer on Rotorua). The gang 'problem' affected him directly in a number of ways via teaching kids who are growing up in households that are connected in some way with gangs (MM or BP usually)...

Drugs being sold outside school and inside, often by young kids who want to work for the gangs...
Junior gang related violence - fights organised during school time and on school property between factions of the younger members / propspects of rival gangs. He spent several 'playtimes' doing security duty around the school to try and prevent this...
Threats of violence and retribution from parents with gang connections whose children were being disciplined by teachers / principal...
Some truly sad and desperate stories, like the 14 year old girl being spirited away from school / home to live with an aunty elsewhere - she had been threatened with a punishment rape by gang members after being caught flirting with a married gang member at a party.

However, I - in my daily life around the town - had virtually no knowledge of any of this or any direct experience. I guess unless you are required by your job to interact with this part of society, or if you are unfortunate enough to get embroiled in something, you can avoid / ignore the gang problem in NZ.

Maori gangs (IMHO) are a perversion of the whanau 'extended family' system which gives them their unique flavour in the world of organised crime. Traditionally maori and pacific island society runs on pretty strict rules and codes, and some of these rules are enforced physically to children especially(anyone read the Star Times article on Samoa at the weekend?). The gangs take all the misplaced pride, anger, honour and concepts like utu (revenge) and turn it into something destructive. And yet for a lot of people these gangs are the only constant presence in their lives and they will cling onto them when the rest of the (pakeha) world seems to be against them. Recent attempts / signs that older gang members are seeking to make changes are encouraging - I really hope that they can make a difference. Politicians like Pita Sharples as well, maybe they can make a difference.

[kanatakiwi]

What a thoughtful excellent post., Ruthyroo I think you are spot on, and have outlined the issue in a very objective manner.
Off to add to your rep.
Kanata kiwi

[willsken]

What a thoughtful excellent post., Ruthyroo I think you are spot on, and have outlined the issue in a very objective manner.
Off to add to your rep.
Kanata kiwi

Agree 100%. Excellent post, thoroughly enjoyed reading it. :clap

[nippa&pippa]

Interesting topic.

Mr Rr's first teaching job here was in Rotorua, an area known for its high Maori population, perceived high crime rate and gang problems (as well as beautiful lakes, geothermal wonders, nice people and fascinating Maori culture - this is not a downer on Rotorua). The gang 'problem' affected him directly in a number of ways via teaching kids who are growing up in households that are connected in some way with gangs (MM or BP usually)...

Drugs being sold outside school and inside, often by young kids who want to work for the gangs...
Junior gang related violence - fights organised during school time and on school property between factions of the younger members / propspects of rival gangs. He spent several 'playtimes' doing security duty around the school to try and prevent this...
Threats of violence and retribution from parents with gang connections whose children were being disciplined by teachers / principal...
Some truly sad and desperate stories, like the 14 year old girl being spirited away from school / home to live with an aunty elsewhere - she had been threatened with a punishment rape by gang members after being caught flirting with a married gang member at a party.

However, I - in my daily life around the town - had virtually no knowledge of any of this or any direct experience. I guess unless you are required by your job to interact with this part of society, or if you are unfortunate enough to get embroiled in something, you can avoid / ignore the gang problem in NZ.

Maori gangs (IMHO) are a perversion of the whanau 'extended family' system which gives them their unique flavour in the world of organised crime. Traditionally maori and pacific island society runs on pretty strict rules and codes, and some of these rules are enforced physically to children especially(anyone read the Star Times article on Samoa at the weekend?). The gangs take all the misplaced pride, anger, honour and concepts like utu (revenge) and turn it into something destructive. And yet for a lot of people these gangs are the only constant presence in their lives and they will cling onto them when the rest of the (pakeha) world seems to be against them. Recent attempts / signs that older gang members are seeking to make changes are encouraging - I really hope that they can make a difference. Politicians like Pita Sharples as well, maybe they can make a difference.


Seem teachers more likely to experience this gangs situations if teaching in high moari areas :uhoh this echo what my sister been through during her teaching period in south auckland.

[John Z]

For a bit of history and insight in to the gangs in New Zealand you might want to watch Ross Kemp's five-part video on NZ Gangs - it's on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSclO8suF6Y = part one - the rest are in the links on the right of the video.

The views expressed in the vids aren't mine, so please don't interrogate me after watching them. :D

Just watched them all.

My first reaction:
respect, loyalty and honour: the problem AND the solution.

Thanks Moorf, I have to let that sink in.

[Lupin]

My husband and I just watched all of those youtubes. Quite shocked.

[Tia Maria]

Not surprisingly there is no gang activity in the old fashioned seaside resort of Devonport.

Although we do have our fair share of grafitti and window breaking and the navy lads can get a bit rowdy on their nights off. Having come from North London it all seems very mellow here and people do seem to look out for each other as a community.

The advantage to only having one road in and out of Devonport means you would have to stage a James Bond style speedboat escape if you wanted to get away! :D

Cheers

Tia

[John Z]

Hey, we're talking NZ here, what's wrong with Frodo-style? :cool:

#Gimme that, gimme that, gimme gimme that, gimme that ring, gimme gimme that, gimme that ring, gimme gimme that, gimme gimme gimme that ring....#........................... :exit

[Moorf]

Wow John, that was one of my favorite recordings as a kid - "Oliver in the Underworld" - memories! :nice1

[Moorf]

Just to let you know that Ross Kemp's award-winning "Gangs" series is to be show-un (Marcia ;) ) on TV One on Mondays... one of the episodes is devoted to the Mongrel Mob / Black Power gangs in NZ. Can also be watched on YouTube as per previous post. :)

[constablechuck]

Gangs in NZ have become a very big problem especially amongst the younger generation early teens to early twenties, the gangs are gaining influence and a lot of young people are getting sucked into a life of drugs and crime, it's not just Maori either, there are also a lot of Pakeha kids getting involved with gangs.

A lot of car thefts, burglaries, assaults and general lawlessness can be attributed to youth gangs, the best advice I can give is to keep your kids far far away from any of their peers that identifies with a gang, wannabe or not.

My experience with gang members in NZ has been a real eye opener, any sense of safety and security I had when I arrived in NZ has been replaced by a strong sense of caution, crime and punishment in NZ is much different here than in the U.S., the NZ legal system does not like to punish anyone so consequences are normally very mild, unfortunately criminals here tend to keep re-offending because they know crime can and does pay in NZ.

[Moorf]

Is there such a thing as a kid who has more of a propensity to become a gang member than another or is it all environmental?

Just wondered if there was an attitude that said being in NZ would mean a kid is more likely to be exposed to gangs than in, say, the UK, and more likely to get swept up in it?

[kowhai]

My mum had an encounter with the Mongrel Mob ( Hawkes Bay ) and it was really lovely. She was sitting in a parked car in direct sunshine. Unable to move the car herself ( she was unwell at the time ), she waved over a group of Mongies. Not only did one of the blokes move the car into the shade , but he sat and chatted with her until my dad returned. In her words " he was a very nice boy. " My biggest regret is not taking a bunch of flowers round to their gang head quarters to say " thanks ".

[constablechuck]

I can't speak for the UK because I've never been there, but I would say that communities in the U.S. similar in size to those in NZ do not have nearly as much gang activity.

In the U.S. gangs are heavily targeted by law enforcement and lengthy prison sentences are meted out, schools and social workers are anti gang, unfortunately in NZ the powers that be try to pacify and "understand" gangs rather than eliminate them, the byproduct is that gang members get affirmation from the very people that should be discouraging gang membership.

There are a lot of young people from good stable families that get involved in gangs because they think it's cool to be in with the rough crowd, they see gang members being counseled and given special attention so where's the detterent ? in America the kids see gang members being arrested and sent away for a long time so the detterent is obvious.

[constablechuck]

My mum had an encounter with the Mongrel Mob ( Hawkes Bay ) and it was really lovely. She was sitting in a parked car in direct sunshine. Unable to move the car herself ( she was unwell at the time ), she waved over a group of Mongies. Not only did one of the blokes move the car into the shade , but he sat and chatted with her until my dad returned. In her words " he was a very nice boy. " My biggest regret is not taking a bunch of flowers round to their gang head quarters to say " thanks ".


People that knew Ted Bundy said that when he wasn't out being a serial killer he was quite charming :roll I guess the Mongrels can also be charming when they're not out doing drive by shootings and victimising the community.

This is exactly the mentality I'm talking about.

[Sam B]

But are the tougher measures used in the US really a deterrent Constable Chuck? Are there less recidivists in the US? I'm just curious, because I always think that there is MORE crime there (but I am a fan of The Wire, so I probably have a distorted view...)

[lockstock]

I suspect NZ's softly softly approach to the gangs is largely due to the continuing repercussions from the Treaty of Waitangi. In the efforts to make amends it's all hands to the pumps to promote positive relationships with the Maori. I believe that it's positive discrimation in some ways. Unfortunately the downside of the effort is that if gangs and gang activities are criticised the criticism is decried as opression or pakeha abusing their (dubious) Treaty 'authority'. The criminal aspect (IMHO)seems to have been overshadowed by the need to be seen to be doing the right thing.

I work in a school with a strong Maori contingent and there is an obvious 'gang' atmosphere. There are also several Pasifika children - equally keen to belong. How sinister things are it is too soon for me to guage but having spent the afternoon at a Kapa Haka competition dress rehearsal as the only European, I felt nothing but welcome and included - despite some sideswipes about the Treaty!

[constablechuck]

But are the tougher measures used in the US really a deterrent Constable Chuck? Are there less recidivists in the US? I'm just curious, because I always think that there is MORE crime there (but I am a fan of The Wire, so I probably have a distorted view...)

I'm also a fan of the Wire, it's one of the most realistic crime dramas on T.V., I actually worked fugitive cases in Baltimore when I was involved with the operation FALCON task force headed by the U.S. Marshal's, the show was actually filmed in Baltimore and I recognised some of the areas filmed in the show.

The tougher measures are a detterent because people know there are meaningful consequences for committing crime in the U.S., it's hard to measure in recidivism rates because people that decide not to get involved in crime in the first place can't be counted.

Many of the people I arrested in the U.S. were devestated because they knew they were going away for a long time, at my current job here in NZ I often have criminals laugh about what a joke the consequences are and how they can't wait to get back out and start stealing cars and smoking drugs, unlike in the U.S. many of the criminals in NZ don't even bother pretending to have any remorse.

lockstock

The out of control PC'ness probably does play a part in the governments misguided crime control strategies, sometimes the powers that be only see and hear what they want to, gangs are not a cultural matter, they are a crime and justice matter plain and simple.

[Sam B]

But isn't there still less crime per capita in NZ than there is in the US?

[constablechuck]

But isn't there still less crime per capita in NZ than there is in the US?

NO, the crime rate "per capita" in NZ is nearly double that of the U.S.

[benandclare]

NO, the crime rate "per capita" in NZ is nearly double that of the U.S.


Are the crime statistics compiled in the same way?

[Sam B]

It's just that .... based on my expansive experience of avidly watching The Sopranos and The Wire, it doesn't look like the tougher measures in the US act as much of a deterrent .....but I guess I have to concede that I'm not an expert!

[benandclare]

Looks like NZ is doing ok here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index#2007_Global_Peace_Index_ranking s

[constablechuck]

The "Violent Crime" rate in the U.S. is higher than NZ, the Ministry of Justice makes that report readily available, however the overall crime rate "per capita" which includes all types of crimes is nearly twice that of the U.S.

These statistics are for the U.S. and NZ as a whole, not specific cities, if you compared Auckland to LA or Chicago then of course Chicago and LA have more crime per capita, much of the U.S. population live in small towns and cities with low crime rates, most people from other countries have never heard of these places, when you think of the U.S. you think about big cities, when you include the rest of the U.S. the statistics begin to make more sense.

[benandclare]

How would Auckland compare to a city of similar size in the States?

[lockstock]

gangs are not a cultural matter, they are a crime and justice matter plain and simple.


I agree but here it seems attempts to deal with gangs are held up as a general 'pop' at maoridom. Stalemate.

[benandclare]

NO, the crime rate "per capita" in NZ is nearly double that of the U.S.


Not quite double

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

But never the less not good reading.

Keep up the good work Chuck you've a very difficult job, we appreciate it

[willsken]

Do these figures take into account the different way crimes are recorded?

[willsken]

I agree but here it seems attempts to deal with gangs are held up as a general 'pop' at maoridom. Stalemate.

So true.

[benandclare]

Do these figures take into account the different way crimes are recorded?

No idea been trying to find out but no luck so far :no

[willsken]

The difficulty with crime statistics is the different ways crimes are counted in different countries. New Zealand complained to the OECD a few years ago when an OECD report showed NZ had the worst youth crime in the world - all because of the way crimes are counted in New Zealand.

In most countries if a criminal assaulted someone, then kidnapped them, stole their car, raped and murdered them, the crime would be counted as one crime - a murder.

In New Zealand the crime would count as one assault, one kidnap, one car theft, one rape and one murder. In other words the same crime can look much worse when it’s fed into New Zealand’s crime statistics than it would in many overseas statistics.

The New Zealand Ministry of Justice compiled figures in 2000 comparing violent crime in New Zealand with other countries. To make it a truly like-for-like comparison, the Ministry used the crime-counting methods of the other countries. The figures that emerge from this approach show that New Zealand and Australia are the English speaking countries with the lowest violent crime rates.


Using American Crime counting methods (per 100,000 people)

New Zealand murder rate = 1.7
America murder rate = 5.5

New Zealand total violent crime = 133
America total violent crime = 506


Using Australian Crime counting methods (per 100,000 people)

New Zealand murder rate = 1.8
Australia murder rate = 1.8

New Zealand total violent crime = 1036
Australia total violent crime = 942


Using British Crime counting methods (per 100,000 people)


New Zealand total violent crime = 1204
British total violent crime = 1390


Using Canadian Crime counting methods (per 100,000 people)


New Zealand total violent crime = 551
Canadian total violent crime = 982


If we then take American methods as standard, we can produce a new table which truly compares violent crimes in English speaking countries.

Violent Crimes per 100,000 people:

Australia 121
New Zealand 133
England & Wales 153
Canada 237
United States 506

Within New Zealand itself 'high crime' areas are 2, 3 or 4 times worse for crime than the 'low crime' areas.

This is what I was thinking of but it only shows violent crime. I'd still be interested to find out the answer for other types of crime though.

[sillyskuld]

How would Auckland compare to a city of similar size in the States?

According to Wikipedia, Auckland has 1.3 million people living in the metropolitan area. The closest US city in size is Jacksonville, Florida, with 1.277 million people. Jacksonville has higher crime than average for the total US, 6,253 crimes per 100,000 persons, while the US as a whole has 4,479. In comparison, New York had 2,519)

From what I could find, the listing of “total crime” had Jacksonville at 49,766 in 2006 and Auckland at 54,510. However, like all knowledge gained from the internet, I really don’t know if this is comparing apples to apples because you don’t know what crimes they are counting and what they aren’t.

However, in Jacksonville there were 110 murders, and in Auckland, there were 6.

[Lupin]

gangs are not a cultural matter, they are a crime and justice matter plain and simple.

Too right! And prominent Maori's need to be clearer about gang culture having no part in living Maori culture. Gang members should be turned away from the Marae, imo and they should lose their 'status' among Maori communities.

Gang culture really has nothing to add to Maori culture, I don't understand why Government policy doesn't just deal with gang members as the thugs and criminals (and disaffected, disenfranchised, disadvantaged etc, etc) they are rather than tiptoeing round the issue for cultural sensitivities sake. If gangs were declared no part of Maori culture then the ball is in the government's court to deal with it as a 'social problem'. :BIG SIGH:

[willsken]

Too right! And prominent Maori's need to be clearer about gang culture having no part in living Maori culture. Gang members should be turned away from the Marae, imo and they should lose their 'status' among Maori communities.

Gang culture really has nothing to add to Maori culture, I don't understand why Government policy doesn't just deal with gang members as the thugs and criminals (and disaffected, disenfranchised, disadvantaged etc, etc) they are rather than tiptoeing round the issue for cultural sensitivities sake. If gangs were declared no part of Maori culture then the ball is in the government's court to deal with it as a 'social problem'. :BIG SIGH:

Put so well I can't think of anything to add to it. :yes (and it won't let me rep you:roll )

[lockstock]

Gang culture really has nothing to add to Maori culture... If gangs were declared no part of Maori culture then the ball is in the government's court to deal with it as a 'social problem'. :BIG SIGH:[/QUOTE]

The point here is who has the right to declare who or who should not be part of the Maori culture. The Treaty of Waitangi issue is extremely sensitive and feelings about 'outside' interference on Maori issues run strong. From what I have observed and been led to understand, the gang issue is one which the Maori take seriously. A declaration by a pakeha government about what constitutes Maori culture would simply not be tolerated. The situation is more fragile than people seem to think. And let's not forget the Pasifika gangs either - not part of Maori culture at all.

[willsken]

And let's not forget the Pasifika gangs either - not part of Maori culture at all.

If needs be, keep away from culture and just make all gangs illegal.

[constablechuck]

[/QUOTE]
The point here is who has the right to declare who or who should not be part of the Maori culture. The Treaty of Waitangi issue is extremely sensitive and feelings about 'outside' interference on Maori issues run strong. From what I have observed and been led to understand, the gang issue is one which the Maori take seriously. A declaration by a pakeha government about what constitutes Maori culture would simply not be tolerated. The situation is more fragile than people seem to think. And let's not forget the Pasifika gangs either - not part of Maori culture at all.[/QUOTE]

The gang problem is not a Maori issue, it's not just Maori that belong to gangs and it's definitely not just Maori who are being victimised by the crimes these gang members commit, in my opinion anyone Maori or non Maori that supports these gangs is part of the problem.

[lockstock]

the crimes these gang members commit, .[/QUOTE]


That's the issue here. It's not membership of a gang Maori or otherwise. One may object to the gang culture and lifestyle but that is not in itself justification to ban something. The crimes need to be dealt with within the law.

We're pussy footing around in the UK on a similar theme i.e. not taking a stand for fear of offending a minority even though the majority is law abiding and peaceful. What did that teacher call that teddy bear again?

[willsken]

I applaud the mayor of Wanganui for the stand he is taking against gangs. I think more people should have the courage to follow his lead.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/680015

[Lupin]

The point here is who has the right to declare who or who should not be part of the Maori culture. The Treaty of Waitangi issue is extremely sensitive and feelings about 'outside' interference on Maori issues run strong. From what I have observed and been led to understand, the gang issue is one which the Maori take seriously. A declaration by a pakeha government about what constitutes Maori culture would simply not be tolerated. The situation is more fragile than people seem to think. And let's not forget the Pasifika gangs either - not part of Maori culture at all.

I'm not suggesting the government make that declaration- it needs to be made by the Maori community first off, this then puts the ball in the Government's court to deal with it. Sorry if you misunderstood my post.

I do think we should resist the temptation to tiptoe around the issue of gangs because of cultural sensitivities; it offers gangs a convenient camouflage for their lawless activities, which hurt all of Kiwi society and culture, not just Maori.

edited because the 'quote' function made a right hash of it all!!!