[drumminj]

Mark, I think many people feel that way. Especially since the Republican National Convention is in New York City.

There are many conspiracy theories that basically say that everything that has happened - Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, was already laid out. The WTC disaster just gave them a good trigger to be able to do what they wanted.

Who knows.

[Raeven]

Hi, Mark,

Every time I tender a post on politics, I get a sick little feeling in my tummy because the last thing I want to do is offend good people, and I strongly believe that reasonable minds can differ. Nevertheless, it seems a number of us are enjoying this debate and provided it doesn't get personal or nasty, I'm quite game to continue the discussion. I agree with Dave/kamus that American politics are a reality affecting each of us individually and therefore we do each have -- and are entitled to have -- strong opinions about it. As some wise person once said, just because you ignore politics doesn't mean politics will ignore you. But please let me emphasize that the opinions expressed herein are strictly the views of the author and are in no way intended as earth-shattering truths for anyone but herself. And so long as Karl "NZ-Pizza-is-PANTS" Smith kindly allows us to carry on with our discussion, I will be a willing participant!

Along with my coffee, I'm full of wise platitudes this morning (proffered by others, naturally). A dear friend from here shared a popular bumper sticker with me recently. It said, If You Aren't Completely Appalled, You Haven't Been Paying Attention. It expressed utterly my feelings about what has been happening here in the US over these past 4 years.

With only a minimal amount of time devoted to paying attention, it's become clear to me that GWB not only exploited 9/11 for political gain, but worse still, to score off his poppa and carry out some weird father/son pissing match. It's like watching a 2-year-old playing with a loaded gun. I watched in bewilderment as the terms "Osama bin Ladin" and "Saddam Hussein" along with "War on Terror" and "War in Iraq" began to be used interchangeably, as if they were the same thing. They're not! I was willing to entertain the notion that a link existed between Iraq and Al Qaeda. I did a lot of research trying to find one, waiting for the proof of same as we were promised. Bit my lip and became more alarmed as our historical allies and the UN made nervous noises that perhaps such proof did not exist and we should proceed with caution -- or at least, not proceed unilaterally. I found nothing meaningful, certainly no smoking gun.

So to my way of thinking, a thousand young service men and women have died in vain; we've spent approaching 200 billion dollars to capture one old horrible but senile dictator who would likely have been displaced within the next few years anyway and in the process have created a rogue nation devolving into chaos with no discernible plan to rehabilitate it; we've substantially ignored or at least marginalized the actual war on terror by diverting our resources to the pointless war in Iraq, leaving us far more vulnerable and less prepared to address domestic terror issues; we've paid almost no attention to domestic and economic concerns here at home; we've destablized the Middle East to such an extent it's hard to think any peace process will be meaningful; we've alienated our foreign allies and enflamed our enemies; and throughout all this, GWB has blithely enriched his friends and conservative base by awarding them lush reconstruction and military support contracts without competition and at the expense of average American taxpayers. The worst part is, the more you dig into it, the more shocking it becomes. None of this even contemplates the implications of the sneaky legislation enacted in the name of fighting the War on Terror, such as the Patriot Act and the stealthy redrawing of congressional districts to tip the electoral college vote count in GWB's favor come election day.

So yes, you could say that GWB and Administration have exploited 9/11 for political gain.. I'd say that's a kind and gentle way of looking at it.

One last platitude for the road: Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Thank you, Aldous Huxley.

Mark, like you, I'm looking forward to the relative calm of NZ politics.. I'm sure there are important issues -- but it sure can't be like here!

Ok, rant over. I look forward to hearing all your points of view!

All the best, Rae

[drumminj]

Rae -

You forgot the scariest bit of it all - electronic voting and Diebold. No paper trail. Modifications made after the machines have been certified. Back doors. Insecurity. Etc etc etc. :eek

If our voting process can't be trusted, are we still a democratic republic?

Check out www.blackboxvoting.org if you want to be appalled.

(resisting urge to continue the political debate).

J

[markkellaway]

Rae,

Wow, that was an impressive "rant", but warranted and well founded. I still find it incredible that people think the "strength" that the US is showing is good for world peace. I wander how long it will be until they realise that not all people respond well to being beaten with a big stick. Don't even get me started on nuclear proliferation, how many people realise that the US is spending more on nuclear weapons now than it was under Raegan at the hight of the cold war, and that is taking inflation into account!!! :no

My rant over now, I'm really happy to see sensible Americans expousing their views, perhaps we'll discuss it over a beer in NZ sometime soon! :nice1

Perhaps we should stop this now before it gets too contoversial! :laugh

Take care,

Mark. :D

[Raeven]

(resisting urge to continue the political debate).

J

Oh, come on, J, give in to your baser urges -- why should I have all the fun?? :mrgreen:

I did forget about electronic voting, and you're right; it is the scariest bit. One of many scary bits.

Rae

[drumminj]

Oh, come on, J, give in to your baser urges -- why should I have all the fun?? :mrgreen:
Rae

Nah, these discussions are best had over a beer or two. Nah, some people get all riled up when drinking. Perhaps a smoke or two.

Don't have the time to get into political debate. And you and I pretty much agree. I just don't care to place the blame on one person, as they all are to blame. It's easy to pick one person, but changing the president isn't going to fix things one bit. The system is fundamentally flawed, but no one's willing to step up and say that.

And hey, I voted for Bush. I have since been educated on what a "compassionate conservative" is, and it sure as hell isn't a true Republican. Lesson learned. :nice1

J

[kamus]

Wow, Rae-took the words out of my mouth. Actually, so far I haven't seen anyone radically disagree or be offended. Could it be that we represent a new breed of American "political refugees". Is there anyone here who wants to move to NZ who is going to miss GWB and the American political scene in general?
I'm genuinely curious and promise not to flame anyone if they do hold that point of view.
Thus far, we've managed to remain civil here, which bodes well for the future- after all, my wife and kids and I think that NZ is a civil place to be-that's why we hope to get there someday soon!

Dave (kamus)

[coastcat]

I've started a new thread here (http://www.emigratenz.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=106) so we don't get even further off-topic in this one...

Now, what was the original question again? :laugh

[jesselyn]

lol all i know is j has website :nice1

[drumminj]

lol all i know is j has website :nice1

J has started working on a website. Hopefully I'll have time to work on it this weekend. Been busy filling out EOI, trying to get questions answered, transitioning to a new project at work, and trading my guitar for a new one.

Phew. Busy week.

J

[Raeven]

Hi, J,

Out of interest, what guitar are you trading for? I play also, and am always interested in what instrument someone chooses and for what qualities.

All the best, Rae

[MelissaLG]

I cannot disagree with most of what has been written above....but I must say one thing....

Thank God I was born an American.

Despite all of the problems currently facing our country, and I am not just talking about recent events but historical problems as well, the US still is an amazing, wonderful place. I am not urging complacency...there is a lot that needs to be changed....I am just reminding people that you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Notwithstanding all of our collective reasons for moving to NZ...a lot of which has to do with dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs here...we might do well to remember the good as well as the bad aspects of the good old US of A (IMHO). And also to remember that even a wonderful place like NZ has its own share of distasteful problems (ehem, open racism against certain minorities), so that we are not too disollusioned when we arrive in our new homes.

[veronica]

I agree with the lady above and although I am English and now living in NZ by choice I am still proud to be English.

[Raeven]

Hi, Melissa and veronica,

Oh, I don't think anyone need take it that I have lost my pride at being an American, nor do I wish in any way to denigrate the opportunities and privileges I've been afforded for having been born here. I have been very lucky. I live in an enchanted area, I have a beautiful home and have for all practical purposes lived the American dream. But I don't equate criticism of government with being anti-American or unpatriotic in any way; in fact, I feel it is a duty of patriotism to examine all the facts and speak out accordingly if the situation merits it. The current situation, in my view, merits it a lot.

I've said ad nauseam here that I'm not leaving America for my political views but rather because my husband is a Kiwi who wishes to return home. There is so much I will miss from here. It's taken us nearly a year for me to get to the point where I could let go of my American life and take the plunge. I have tried to look for the good in making the move, and to my way of thinking, the current political and environmental climates here in the States are additional good reasons.

I agree there are things about NZ that will distress me. The open racism is one of them. I cannot abide by it and will probably get in trouble more than once with my big mouth. I will miss the choices we have. Will never forget watching my husband's face the first time I took him out to breakfast:

Waitress: "What will you have, sir?"

Hubby: "Sausage and eggs, please."

Waitress: "How would you like your eggs?"

Hubby, with apprehensive look: "Umm... cooked?"

Waitress: "No, sir. I mean, would you like them poached, scrambled, fried, overeasy, or...?"

I interject: "He likes them overeasy."

Waitress: "What kind of sausage would you like?"

Hubby, with increasingly alarmed expression: "Pork...?"

Waitress, impatiently: "Link or patty, sir?"

Hubby: "Oh!! Patty, thanks!!"

Waitress: "And would you like potatoes or pancakes?"

Hubby, looking relieved because he knows the difference: "Potatoes, please!"

Waitress: "Would that be hash browns or home fries?"

Hubby, with deer-in-headlights look again: "Ummm..."

Me, to the rescue: "He'll have hashbrowns."

Waitress: "Toast or muffins?"

Hubby, beginning to fade away: "Toast..?"

Waitress: "Would that be whole wheat, white, sourdough or pumpernickel?"

Hubby: "WTF is pumpernickel???"

Me: "You'd hate it. He'll have white, please."

Hubby ceases to sweat like a farm animal. Fade to black.

Anyway, I can't even get started on the things I will miss, because it always makes me cry.. but bottom line, I haven't confused NZ with paradise or America with a cesspool.. I'm just so sad to see the things that are happening in our country. I've been grateful for the opportunity to vent on it here.

All the best, Rae

[MelissaLG]

Rae,

I absolutely agree....the opportunity to truly, freely express your views is one of the great things about America and so actually doing so is in itself a patriotic act! I think more people should question and criticize our government and our choices as a nation, as we have seen done on this forum. So I certainly did not mean to question anyone's patriotism. To the contrary, I have been enriched by the views on this forum, and appreciate as you do the opportunity to share ideas and viewpoints. I just felt a little spike of love for country that I had to share...despite my current dissatisfaction with certain things about our government and society. I am pretty sure you all know where I am coming from on that one.

Melissa

[drumminj]

I must say, y'all are lucky I started posting here. My threads are the most interesting :mrgreen:

[karltsmith]

Hey Jason,

We just all wanted to make you feel welcome! Nice pic's on your website :nice1

You are going to have to see Mount Ngarahoe at dusk!

:cool

[drumminj]

karl - it's quite nice of y'all to go out of your way like that. I'm touched :nice1

thanks for the compliment.

J

[Moorf]

Hey girls - there's loads of us who like to cook... anyone going to Chch / South Island fancy throwing around some business ideas? I'm thinking homemade lines..... always fancied starting the next Heinz empire :yes

If there's no quality guac / tortilla's etc in NZ then let's bring it to them... I'm a chilli freak so salsa's/chilli jam/chilli choc/you name it if chilli's in it could be a good angle!!

Wonder if the Health and Safety laws are as nannyish in NZ as they are here in the UK??? Are there any regular farmers markets we could tour?? Etc etc....

Hmm creative and stomach juices are flowing and all I have to hand here at the Conwy Travelodge is a bloomin' Brewsters restaurant... :wah