[andrewandjane]

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/aug/07081403.html

LONDON, August 14, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The United Kingdom is now selecting companies to develop a compulsory multi-billion pound national identity card programme to complement the massive surveillance system monitoring the movements of British subjects.

just read this link from the guardians news site..very scary. compares Uk plans for biometric ID cards by 2009 to similar systems in CHINA!

under proposals anyone renewing their passport will have to have a biometric one and an id card. :no

i guess i will just have to wait a few yrs and get an nz passport instead:nice1

[Familyofmonkeys]

When we renewed ours all my family got passports with those chip things in them...except me! Apparently, they are randomly assigned at the moment.

[StevieD]

Big brother eh!:roll

[mgbridges]

When we renewed ours all my family got passports with those chip things in them...except me! Apparently, they are randomly assigned at the moment.

I had to renew all our passports prior to our move recently and all 3 got the chip, so random assignment seems a bit unlikely.

Martin

[Aussie Pom]

Sorry to say this but I think these will be standard issue very soon. We all got new UK passports earlier this year, for our return to the UK and I believe they are the biometric ones, they were issued from Canberra though, I think my Aussie passport is too. I doubt NZ will be able to far behind. I think some countries are insisiting on them for entry... the US????
I don't know what the NZ requirements are but they will probably have to meet the "standards" of other countries if Kiwis want to travel.
Gina

[Familyofmonkeys]

I had to renew all our passports prior to our move recently and all 3 got the chip, so random assignment seems a bit unlikely.

Martin

I thought it seemed unlikely too...in fact, I thought they had done my passport wrong, but when I rang up passport office in Peterborough, they insisted it was random. Was worried, as thought that US could soon insist that anyone travelling through needed biometric passports, but we went via Singapore in the end anyway.

[Croft]

We've had 2 in the last year, both biometric. Basically the data held on them reflects that already in the passport and a digitised photograph, which makes it an awful lot harder to forge. They don't even have to open the passport any longer, just put it over a pad and all the details appear on screen. The UK hasn't gone down the road of some other European countries and insisted on fingerprinting yet, but that may be introduced as the chips allow room for this information to be kept.

I don't see any problem with biometric passports - I am uncomfortable with the concept of a national ID car, though for most of my life I have carried one, having lived in France, the Netherlands and Belgium as a child, been in the Forces and now the Reserves, and never found it a problem.

[andrewandjane]

its the whole id card i have a probelm with,not the passports theyre necessary to travel. Still wasnt keen on being fingerptrinted and photod in LA on teh way here though but neeed teh extra baggage! but when at home (if uk is still home?) you should have teh right to go out without id and be anonymous if you want too. also the fct that the chips etc can record a whole host of information about you all seems a bit too big brother for me, or maybe im just paranoid?

[DMcG]

The government has been trying to foist ID cards on the British public for a few years now. First they tried calling them "entitlement cards" and promised they would not be used as an ID card, but the scope of the project seems to have "crept". With the police asking to be able to take DNA samples from anyone they stop (including for speeding offences) and calling for mandatory vehicle tracking for ALL vehicles in the UK, it's no wonder that more and more people are leaving the country. UK citizens will shortly be under more surveillance than Russians were in the height of the communist era.

Oh, and the latest idea is to use anti-terrorist legislation against marching protesters because they are "supporting terrorist activities" by causing the police to waste time on them instead of tracking down terrorists. :exit

Dougie

[Nick88]

Where I grew up everyone had an ID card, and no-one batted an eyelid. I must be one of the few that are in favour of it, it is a universal form of ID that gets shown in places like banks and dole queues to minimise fraud.

If a member of your family was the victim of a serious crime and the criminal left DNA evidence would you want everyone to be on the database that gets checked? I know I would.

[real_sunfire]

I think the problem with ID cards re the UK is that governments of political flavours are so corrupt and in the pocket of big business (see Private Eye, passim) that we don't trust the government with what it says re: ID cards. This is one of the reasons we left the UK.

In terms of biometric passports - why should we have to bear the huge cost of these passports just because it seems one country (the US) are demanding them.

Rgds.,
Nick.

[Croft]

In terms of biometric passports - why should we have to bear the huge cost of these passports just because it seems one country (the US) are demanding them.

Rgds.,
Nick.

Because a biometric passport is much harder to forge. It takes a fair bit of training and experience to spot even a mediocre forgery, let alone a good one (a course I was on had a lecture about this from an Immigration Officer - lots of examples of what they see and I wouldn't have been able to spot some of them, even after being told what to watch out for!). I for one am glad that biometric passports are being introduced if it will stop at least a porportion of the people who shouldn't be coming across our borders from doing so.

I recognise they're not fullproof. The forgers will find a way of duplicating them, but it's a way of trying to stay ahead.

[uk_munros]

I believe that as a foreign national living in the UK if I leave the country for a holiday or whatever, when I return I am now REQUIRED to give fingerprint and have an eyescan as I reenter the UK.
I saw something on the news about it a couple of months ago where the govt was accused of sneaking in the ID card scheme by targeting foreigners living in the UK first and collecting the same data as used by the ID card scheme, but only on us foreigners. Helps get the systems right...

My current NZ passport has barcoding in it, but when my daughter just renewed her NZ passport it came back with a "contactless electronic circuit chip" in it. Whatever that is...

Personally I have no problem with ID cards if it is only the ID it is establishing. What concerns me is all the other stuff they store on it as well. I don't hold to the "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear argument" - seems way to simplistic to me.

[dharder]

i guess i will just have to wait a few yrs and get an nz passport instead:nice1

Which is, as far as I know, biometric as well. At least they have these little signs on the front, just like the UK ones.

No getting away there.

Personally, I've grown up with an ID card, never had an issue with it. My favourite gripe is having to show up at Blockbusters (here in the UK) with a passport, a gas bill and a bank statement to rent a video. How's that less intrusive than an ID card?

Daniela

[upnorthkyosa]

Toss the passport in the microwave for a couple of seconds. That will burn the chip out and they'll no longer be able to track you.

[dharder]

Toss the passport in the microwave for a couple of seconds. That will burn the chip out and they'll no longer be able to track you.

I suspect that might keep you in the transit queue in LA for rather a long time, though :)

Would they not wonder?

Daniela

[upnorthkyosa]

I suspect that might keep you in the transit queue in LA for rather a long time, though :)

Would they not wonder?

Daniela

I suspect that these chips are not all that failsafe. Plus, all of the information they need is barcoded on the inside anyways. Who knows though?

[Croft]

Toss the passport in the microwave for a couple of seconds. That will burn the chip out and they'll no longer be able to track you.

I take it you're joking!

As already stated, the biometric chip is just a method of recording information that's already in the passport. All they have to do is swipe the passport to get the same info from the machine readable text at the bottom of the 'info' page in your passport. Nothing is added to the chip to 'track' you - you are tracked via a central computer system. The biometric passport just makes it harder to forge, and can also allow such information as fingerprint to be recorded which makes it harder still to forge.

[upnorthkyosa]

I take it you're joking!

I don't know how much you know about RFID technology, but it is easily tracked by GPS. P&G and Walmart cooked up a scheme where this technology was used to track products bought by consumers to see where they all ended up. This was exposed in a rather controversial way.

In the US, our new passports are all coming with RFID chips for the stated purpose that it makes it easier for recording information. I don't see any reason, especially in the current climate of fear and security, to not suspect that these chips have other hidden uses.

[barryp]

I don't know how much you know about RFID technology, but it is easily tracked by GPS.

That's just not possible.

RFID devices are generally passive, including passport tags. They do not emit any signals on their own; they respond to electromagnetic fields of a defined frequency, which power them and thereby allow them to emit low-energy data streams. (And only when the passport is open; when closed, even the officer's scanner held right up against it won't get a reading.) How feasible do you think it is that RF from a satellite at least 18 thousand kilometres above the Earth would be able to excite a particular RFID tag, read its contents whilst ignoring thousands of other passports' responses, and then geolocate the passport? Especially considering that geolocation can't be done via satellite but rather by trinagulation among multiple satellites from Earth's surface?

The security issue with RFID in passports is that the data they contain are encrypted, and that encryption is not secure. The hacker's ability to read the tag actually guards against tyranny; it's an open secret.

I'm a charter member of the Tinfoil Hat Club, inclined to distrust anything a government does on my behalf or for its own purposes. But you can't be tracked with GPS using a tagged passport.

[Croft]

That's just not possible.

RFID devices are generally passive, including passport tags. They do not emit any signals on their own; they respond to electromagnetic fields of a defined frequency, which power them and thereby allow them to emit low-energy data streams. (And only when the passport is open; when closed, even the officer's scanner held right up against it won't get a reading.) How feasible do you think it is that RF from a satellite at least 18 thousand kilometres above the Earth would be able to excite a particular RFID tag, read its contents whilst ignoring thousands of other passports' responses, and then geolocate the passport? Especially considering that geolocation can't be done via satellite but rather by trinagulation among multiple satellites from Earth's surface?

The security issue with RFID in passports is that the data they contain are encrypted, and that encryption is not secure. The hacker's ability to read the tag actually guards against tyranny; it's an open secret.

I'm a charter member of the Tinfoil Hat Club, inclined to distrust anything a government does on my behalf or for its own purposes. But you can't be tracked with GPS using a tagged passport.

Exactly right - there is no way RFIDs can be used in that manner. Some RFIDs are active, but they are a lot bigger and require a power source to operate. They indicate their presence, not location, to any nearby receivers. PAssive RFIDs are by far the most common as they are a lot cheaper and don't require a power source, and these of course are the ones used in passports. Many do have a 'range' of up to a couple of meters or so (so for instance you could scan a pallet and know everything that's on there) but nothing like the range you'd need to 'track' people. Most of the media stories are scare mongering.

[upnorthkyosa]

Wikipedia has more information on RFID and their uses. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID).

This technology has come a long way and it is a lot more commonplace and powerful then people think. Take a look at some of the publicized uses. Some of this material is surprising.

See this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON)to cap it all off.

[kanatakiwi]

I don't know what the NZ requirements are but they will probably have to meet the "standards" of other countries if Kiwis want to travel.
Gina

NZ passports have had the biometric strip for a few years now. My husband had to get a new passport as his did not have the strip, and was told these passports would be required for travel through US.

[barryp]

This technology has come a long way and it is a lot more commonplace and powerful then people think. Take a look at some of the publicized uses. Some of this material is surprising.

Commonplace, yes. Powerful, yes. Violating the laws of physics, no.

Next time you go to Wikipedia, you might consider looking up GPS as well. You might learn that it's physically impossible to geolocate from a single satellite (at least three are required) and that geolocation is done at the level of a detector and not any of those satellites. Passports, RFID tagged or not, are not GPS receivers; even if they were, that would be of no value to Big Brother in tracking you.

In short, you demonstrate complete ignorance of how RFID and GPS technologies actually work. That ignorance leads to factually wrong conclusions about how they can be used.

People in the UK have no personal privacy on the street anyway, and haven't for many years. Big Brother in this case derives from pervasive coverage of public spaces by video surveillance cameras (a very low-tech tool!) and a legal framework that lets resulting video captures be investigated by police with ease. Passport control and RFID tags in passports have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

[upnorthkyosa]

The problem with this post is that you assume a lot of things about me, but I'm happy to inform you that I have a degree in physics and that building radios arrays is something that I've been interested in for a long time. In fact, part of my undergrad work included building a radio telescope that could look into the sun...

"Tracking RFIDs by GPS" is more tongue in cheek then anything because what we know of as GPS is nothing close to the geolocation systems that our governments use all of the time. More people know what GPS is then any other system that exists.

Picking up very weak signals is a problem of resolution. If you know what the photons you are looking for look like, then you can design an array that will pick them up rather easily. And 18 km is not that large of a distance at an astronomical level. The average "standard candle" (inverse square law) puts out far less of a signal then what could be sense from a "passive" RFID and we are still able to use that data to tell us so much about the universe.

In short, your entire argument is a red herring because you are suggesting that I somewhere said that you need one satalite to geolocate. Textually, this is not supported by anything that I've stated. All I've trying to say is that tracking a RFID is possible from space.

And when you look at the (public) track record that the US government has in regards to spying on other countries and on its own citizens, I wouldn't put it past them.

[upnorthkyosa]

People in the UK have no personal privacy on the street anyway, and haven't for many years. Big Brother in this case derives from pervasive coverage of public spaces by video surveillance cameras (a very low-tech tool!) and a legal framework that lets resulting video captures be investigated by police with ease. Passport control and RFID tags in passports have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Lets forget for a minute that these things can really be tracked from space. Imagine what a ground based network of transmitters and receivers would look like. The amount of energy required to "fire up" a "passive" RFID antenna is far less then it takes for cell phone transmissions. The tag (passive) antenna can take that and transmit it at slightly less amplitude then the signal that hit it. If the transmitter was nearby, there would be no problem for that signal to be resolved.

A single unit could do this. You could plug it into a wall outlet and it would let someone know of your existance simply by proximity. It would be no problem to blanket an area (like major transit terminals) with these devices and know exactly who and where and when people are inside that area at any time.

RFID makes mass survailance a whole lot easier. Cameras are completely obsolete. RFIDs are far lower tech, far cheaper, and far more efficient then cameras.

[moppet]

I’m from the UK but have lived in Hong Kong for the past 2 and half years, we have ID cards here and it’s never been a problem. In fact quite the opposite it’s great to have a credit card size form of ID that’s accepted everywhere rather than dragging passports around. We even get to go through immigration in and out of Hong Kong with it. Just put your card in the machine do a thumbprint and away you go. Saves loads of time in long queues.

[upnorthkyosa]

I’m from the UK but have lived in Hong Kong for the past 2 and half years, we have ID cards here and it’s never been a problem. In fact quite the opposite it’s great to have a credit card size form of ID that’s accepted everywhere rather than dragging passports around. We even get to go through immigration in and out of Hong Kong with it. Just put your card in the machine do a thumbprint and away you go. Saves loads of time in long queues.

It's like any technology. It sure has its benefits, but people do need to know how it can be abused. Ignorance makes vigilance impossible.

[Chiba]

I’m from the UK but have lived in Hong Kong for the past 2 and half years, we have ID cards here and it’s never been a problem. In fact quite the opposite it’s great to have a credit card size form of ID that’s accepted everywhere rather than dragging passports around. We even get to go through immigration in and out of Hong Kong with it. Just put your card in the machine do a thumbprint and away you go. Saves loads of time in long queues.

Likewise. As a Japan resident I have an ID card. It doesn't have RFID. Then again, I keep it under my tinfoil hat anyway, just in case, as you never know what They are up to, so it'll be undetectable anyway. :p

[upnorthkyosa]

Likewise. As a Japan resident I have an ID card. It doesn't have RFID. Then again, I keep it under my tinfoil hat anyway, just in case, as you never know what They are up to, so it'll be undetectable anyway. :p

Tinfoil hats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin-foil_hat) started as faraday cages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_Cage). Here (http://www.stopabductions.com/)is a great site that show their use and how to build them... ;)

Nothing picks up the babes like a thought screen helmet!!! :nice1

[moppet]

It sure has its benefits, but people do need to know how it can be abused. Ignorance makes vigilance impossible


I'd be interested to know in what way you think it may be abused, (I’m not being funny here I’m genuinely interested) it’s never been something I’ve been concerned about and I don’t by into all the conspiracy theories that big brother is watching me. I think in general it’s a good form of ID and if someone can check my fingerprints or DNA to verify it’s me then why would I care. I live a quiet peaceful life and think the authorities have more than enough to do without spying on little old me.

[upnorthkyosa]

They are mostly privacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID#Privacy)concerns. This part of the article does a pretty good job of breaking them down. The thing that worries me about putting RFIDs in passports is that all of these things could now apply and effect your ability to travel. In essence, your "papers" can be checked anywhere and every where you carry the thing.

And then there is the fact that carrying your personal information in RFID form is a step closer to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID#Human_implantation). That would seem an Orwellian science fiction if it weren't a fact that this technology already exists and is being used.

[txbarb]

Well, my son had his passport in his pants pocket after a solo plane trip - it subsequently went through the wash. I'd imagine that would fix most anything electronic.
:-)

Then there's this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/business/worldbusiness/12security.html?ex=1188187200&en=7e7788d3cb18b951&ei=5070

I'm OK with an ID card but aren't we going over the top here?

Data on the chip will include not just the citizen’s name and address but also work history, educational background, religion, ethnicity, police record, medical insurance status and landlord’s phone number. Even personal reproductive history will be included, for enforcement of China’s controversial “one child” policy. Plans are being studied to add credit histories, subway travel payments and small purchases charged to the card.

[colandros]

I would have no issues with having a biometric I/D card.
You have to remember that like it or not the uk is a target for illegal imigrants and terrorists, the crime rates here are sky high and even people stopped for minor infractions like driving offences try to dodge them by claiming false identities. Credit card theft is big buisness and the recent switch to chip and pin hasnt stopped it.
Lets face it, if there was no need for the govt to consider these scemes i'm sure there would be less of us on here looking to jump ship.
If an I/D card helped to stop or at least reduce any of the above then i think its worth it.
Realistcally on a day to day basis it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference to me or the way i live my life. People will cry and scream about infringments of human rights and civil liberties, rubbish, sometimes you have to stand up, suck it up, and make a sacrifice for the greater good.
The innocent and law abiding have nothing to fear from these cards.

[John Z]

.................................................. ..............

Realistcally on a day to day basis it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference to me or the way i live my life. People will cry and scream about infringments of human rights and civil liberties, rubbish, sometimes you have to stand up, suck it up, and make a sacrifice for the greater good.
The innocent and law abiding have nothing to fear from these cards.

The trouble isn't with the "innocent and law abiding", and I'd ad "ignorant".

The trouble is that a tracking and recording system is a way to analise and "control" the "critical mass". When the system is well implanted in society it becomes very tempting (well, it already was from the beginning...) to use it for other purposes, whatever that may be. I do not only think it could happen, I'm 100% sure it will. For the simple reason that it can be done, remember Murphy?

[StevieD]

An emotive issue.

Goverments want to know what it's citizens are up to, that is the basis of law and order. I used an ID card for years when I was in the navy, no problems at all. It is the same as any other form of identification, so not a big issue for me.
The problem for many people is the fear that the system will be abused, that is how much government's have lost the trust of the people. But we all seem to forget (from a UK perspective) that we have always been pried upon - from the middle ages onwards. The arm of governance spreads out like a web, so don't think it is a new thing. Add to that the information we put out on the web, to banks, credit card agencies and the myriad of other "data" gathering agencies, it seems to make the job of government easy and the task of installing these huge technological systems a bit superfluous.
Having flirted with the "intelligence" community in past work, and indeed been offered employment in that field in the past, it is no new thing and not so much a worry for me. I can live with it, but it is for stable governance to use, and not abuse this information.

I think the governments have enough to worry about without tracking each and every one of it's citizens. We have seen how hard it is to track down terrorists to believe that they have this wonderful system in place that is the be all and end all of surveillance.

There again, we could always resort to that hat in the previous link :laugh

[toesonthenose]

This discussion is so polite! Get on a forum of Americans and talk about a national ID card and suddenly people will start thinking you are placing the "Mark of the Beast" from the book of Revelation upon their bodies. I wish I were kidding.

[John Z]

A few days ago I watched the "Zeitgeist" movie (I've seen it 3 times now, a record for me to see a movie)

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

and it actually "explains" the why, what and wherefore of RFID-chips. It is in part III, but the first parts are an intro to it. Each part is about 40 minutes and the whole movie is about 2 hours.

Very impressive.

[Paul]

I would have no issues with having a biometric I/D card.
You have to remember that like it or not the uk is a target for illegal imigrants and terrorists, the crime rates here are sky high and even people stopped for minor infractions like driving offences try to dodge them by claiming false identities. Credit card theft is big buisness and the recent switch to chip and pin hasnt stopped it.
Lets face it, if there was no need for the govt to consider these scemes i'm sure there would be less of us on here looking to jump ship.
If an I/D card helped to stop or at least reduce any of the above then i think its worth it.
Realistcally on a day to day basis it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference to me or the way i live my life. People will cry and scream about infringments of human rights and civil liberties, rubbish, sometimes you have to stand up, suck it up, and make a sacrifice for the greater good.
The innocent and law abiding have nothing to fear from these cards.

Probably ironic that the current goverment has contributed greatly to all the factors you mention (unplanned immigration, foreign policies and terrorism etc) and therefore we need this ID system to counter act it! Very convenient it then allows them greater access to information about its citizens

If people keep rolling over again and again then they only have themselves to blame when they find they are effectively living in a police state (more CCTV camera than any other country I believe already?).

Also do you really believe that if the current exodus of UK citizens continues this will go unchecked. Lets face it its the people who contribute most to a society in general that are the ones leaving (look at the entry requirements for most of the countries Britons emigrate to)

[Caroline and Dave]

Also do you really believe that if the current exodus of UK citizens continues this will go unchecked. Lets face it its the people who contribute most to a society in general that are the ones leaving (look at the entry requirements for most of the countries Britons emigrate to)


This is what concerns me the most. Countries like NZ,Aus,Canada etc will only take well educated professional people and those who have a skills shortage job. If this continues in 10 years time the UK will collapse which does concern me for relatives in the UK. I was talking to an American on holiday from Texas and he was telling me he was in a queue at Heathrow Airport for 5 hours as they had to join the same queue as people immigrating and all he wanted to do was go on holiday. I am surprised they don't just let them in . Whats the point of checking passports when they don't send them home anyway.

[Paul]

This is what concerns me the most. Countries like NZ,Aus,Canada etc will only take well educated professional people and those who have a skills shortage job. If this continues in 10 years time the UK will collapse which does concern me for relatives in the UK. I was talking to an American on holiday from Texas and he was telling me he was in a queue at Heathrow Airport for 5 hours as they had to join the same queue as people immigrating and all he wanted to do was go on holiday. I am surprised they don't just let them in . Whats the point of checking passports when they don't send them home anyway.

Yes this concerns me as someone who has decided to stay for now.
I am losing one of my partners later this year as he is emigrating (not to NZ) and I know of at least one of my other senior staff who has considered NZ as a place to move to. As for clients well I must speak to at least one or two a month who are planning/or actually doing a move out of the UK

As you say in 10 years time where will this leave the UK - probably not collapsing but certainly feeling the strain of shortages in certain areas

Had to laugh at the Ameican tale, as unfotunately have been on the end of a similar (maybe not 5 hours) story each time I've travelled to America, so welcome to what we have dealt with for many years!! ;)

[upnorthkyosa]

A few days ago I watched the "Zeitgeist" movie (I've seen it 3 times now, a record for me to see a movie)

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

and it actually "explains" the why, what and wherefore of RFID-chips. It is in part III, but the first parts are an intro to it. Each part is about 40 minutes and the whole movie is about 2 hours.

Very impressive.

Very interesting movie. It took a lot of clips from other movies that are floating around on the web and attempted to craft a thesis. I think there is a disconnect between part I and Parts II and III though. They need a part IV that ties them all together...

Other then that, I think that it does present the worst case scenario for RFID. I'm not sure if this really is the "why" (how can anyone be sure of that) but it seems plausible enough given todays times.