[Belmont Babes]

I have the Waikato Times as my home page and can't believe how many road accidents and fatalaties there seems to be on a regular basis. I am comparing to an area near us of I think same size and there definitely seems to be more in NZ. Is this true and if so why?

[Sam B]

It's not illegal to use mobiles, roads are long and boring, lots of 15 year old drivers, lots of drink drivers, not terribly good drivers in general....

[lockstock]

I read somehwere that NZ has the worst road safety (or lackof ) record in the world. And if I'm brutally honest, it really made me stop and think about going there. When I was there last month - and driving- I didn't feel too bad and there were some high profile 'drive safely' campaigns going on.

[Sam B]

Having said that, I never feel unsafe on the roads here. Most drivers are ok.

[wiki]

As someone in the media here in the UK, I should point out that fatalities and other prangs in the UK don't get half the coverage they do in NZ. Only half of the crashes get on the police tapes and only a third of that makes it into the press - and you're not going to be reading/listening to every press outlet that uses it.

On the other hand, crash data is, and always has been, big news in NZ because... well to be honest, because the proportion of "bigger" crime isn't there to push it out. I'm not saying bigger crime doesn't happen, just with a population 1/15th the size murders etc happen on average about 1/15th of the time so therefore there's more room for the downtable news.

[Caroline and Dave]

One of our tenants is a road traffic cop and he is based in just one borough and they have on average 30 accidents a day and that is only the reported ones. ( This is the UK). I was concerned about bad driving in NZ but we find it far better than where we live in the UK. I find in car parks you have to be careful as it is a bit like dodgems.As Wiki says it is highlighted far more in New Zealand. I really don't think it is too much to worry about.


Dave and Caroline

[Familyofmonkeys]

Personally I think some drivers here are dreadful. IMO it seems that some people who learnt to drive in NZ a couple of decades ago, when the roads were much less busy, still treat the roads as if they were still the same, and have not adapted their driving in such a way as to be safe in busier times. Also, as there is so much immigration from many different counties ( e.g. where people drive on RH side of road), and people are often allowed to drive on their existing licence for a year, there is little consistency of driving standards.

Everyday I see bad driving especially speeding on windy roads out of city, dangerous overtaking, weaving in and out of peoples 'safety zone' on motorways, complete lack of or wrong signally....the list goes on. It is no surprise that accident statistics are so high here.

[Jo Jo]

As someone in the media here in the UK, I should point out that fatalities and other prangs in the UK don't get half the coverage they do in NZ. Only half of the crashes get on the police tapes and only a third of that makes it into the press - and you're not going to be reading/listening to every press outlet that uses it.

On the other hand, crash data is, and always has been, big news in NZ because... well to be honest, because the proportion of "bigger" crime isn't there to push it out. I'm not saying bigger crime doesn't happen, just with a population 1/15th the size murders etc happen on average about 1/15th of the time so therefore there's more room for the downtable news.

I was going to write something similar, but you beat me to it.

[Belmont Babes]

Thanks all, feel a little better... I think?

[Nick88]

Familyofmonkeys took the words right out of my mouth. Many Kiwis are terrible drivers. The driving test is ludicrously easy, and there are alot of unlicensed drivers about. Insurance is not compulsory, third party is included in the road tax, so there is no incentive to keep a no-claims bonus you don't have.

I bought the safest car I could afford for my wife and kids after an 18 yr old coming the other way nearly punched my ticket on a sharp bend. The peace of mind is worth every penny. Oh yes, get fully comp, there is no guarantee the other driver will have anything.

[dharder]

In one of my many (and obviously futile, since we are still going) attempts at 'Deconstructing New Zealand,' I resorted to pointing out road safety records (well, among other things). The road death toll in London (London!) is half that of NZ. So if you take a greater London population of 8 million, you get to a death toll for NZ that is FOUR times that of London.

And my biggest fear in London with regards to the children has always been traffic, so I don't know how I will deal with this once in Auckland.

One of my favourite 'odd things to point out about NZ' where those crosses at dangerous bits of road where people had died in car crashes. How clever is it to have a row of crosses there with names on them that then everyone driving by tries to read !?!

Daniela

[IanW99]

In one of my many (and obviously futile, since we are still going) attempts at 'Deconstructing New Zealand,' I resorted to pointing out road safety records (well, among other things). The road death toll in London (London!) is half that of NZ. So if you take a greater London population of 8 million, you get to a death toll for NZ that is FOUR times that of London.

And my biggest fear in London with regards to the children has always been traffic, so I don't know how I will deal with this once in Auckland.

One of my favourite 'odd things to point out about NZ' where those crosses at dangerous bits of road where people had died in car crashes. How clever is it to have a row of crosses there with names on them that then everyone driving by tries to read !?!

Daniela

Not really sure you are comparing like for like, the average speed in London is much lower than NZ and we keep getting told that speed kills.

The memorials on the side of the road also occurs in the UK or at least it did around by where we used to live, don't see any difference here?

Ian

[dilanium]

Everyday I see bad driving especially speeding on windy roads out of city, dangerous overtaking, weaving in and out of peoples 'safety zone' on motorways, complete lack of or wrong signally....the list goes on. It is no surprise that accident statistics are so high here.

This sounds an awful lot like the drivers here in Ohio. Maybe I'll fit right in. :uhoh :no

[BkyMonster]

I always figure that when local media makes big news out of more mundane crimes and accidents that it is actually a good thing.

Mainly because there isn't much bad for them to report on and they have to report something that gets people interested :no .

I've lived in places where a murder hardly makes the paper or television (because it happens every day :( ) unless it has 'sensational appeal' and others where every murder makes the paper (and indeed is in the paper for weeks!) since it is so rare. I'll take the second town over the first any day. :)

[John Z]

My experience on NZ roads is just positive. There are as*h*les everywhere, and on our trip from the north to the south we maybe encountered 2 or 3 of them. All of them being oversized SUV's.
Through the hills of the Netherlands however, the amount of large SUV is much bigger (both absolute and relative) and their as*h*le-behaviour likewise. But in the Netherlands that's related to general decadence behaviour.
If you want to compare UK to NZ you should compare London to Auckland and not compare urban figures with rural.

[dharder]

Not really sure you are comparing like for like, the average speed in London is much lower than NZ and we keep getting told that speed kills.

I live in London, and I move to NZ, and the numbers tell me that I am safer on the road in London. Beyond that, what is ever 'like for like' when you compare. How is Auckland anything like London?

It is not, btw, speed itself that kills. It is going too fast in any given circumstance. 30kmh can be too fast for a situation, 150kmh totally fine in another.

Daniela

[tiefchord]

I have the Waikato Times as my home page and can't believe how many road accidents and fatalaties there seems to be on a regular basis. I am comparing to an area near us of I think same size and there definitely seems to be more in NZ. Is this true and if so why?

Doesn't seem that crazy for a country of 4M to me. What, once a week, if that? But let's just say there is 1 fatality a day. 365/year isn't exactly huge either.

[tiefchord]

I always figure that when local media makes big news out of more mundane crimes and accidents that it is actually a good thing.

Mainly because there isn't much bad for them to report on and they have to report something that gets people interested :no .


In alot of cases it creates alarmism that I'd rather not deal with. NZ news tends to focus on topics as such.

[IanW99]

I live in London, and I move to NZ, and the numbers tell me that I am safer on the road in London. Beyond that, what is ever 'like for like' when you compare. How is Auckland anything like London?

It is not, btw, speed itself that kills. It is going too fast in any given circumstance. 30kmh can be too fast for a situation, 150kmh totally fine in another.

Daniela

Agreed that it is not possible to compare like for like, but comparing a city to a country is surely a stretch.

If you want to do a comparison then you could compare UK to NZ or city to city and yes aggreed that Auckland and London are not comparable, but sure you could use a smaller UK city for comparison.

Not driving to the circumstances is clearly bad, but accidents at higher speeds have more serious consequences.

If you hit an adult pedestrian while driving at 30mph, the survival chance is 80%. But if you hit a pedestrian while driving at 40mph, the pedestrian's chances of dying rises to 90%. (this lowers to 80% for a child).

For those that are interested, the number of road fatalities in NZ are approx 400 per year and 3200 in the UK, if you take population into account (4 million compared to 60 million) then this works out as approx. 100 deaths (NZ) compared to 53 deaths per million population.

The UK is actually very good from a road safety perspective.
The United Kingdom has a very good record for road safety compared with most other EU countries. In 2004 it had one of the lowest road death rates in the EU, at 5.6 per 100,000 population. The UK rate was also lower than the rates for other industrialised nations such as Japan (6.96 per 100,000 population), and substantially lower than that of Australia (8.15) and the United States (14.66).

Ian

[dharder]

Not driving to the circumstances is clearly bad, but accidents at higher speeds have more serious consequences.

Well now it entirely depends on what you are looking at, and we're getting into territory where you do have to define what you are taking into consideration. If you talk about road safety, then an accident that is not fatal has an impact on my safety and will contribute to my feeling not safe. Won't kill me, but I feel less safe. It's a bit like travelling by plane or car: you're less likely to have an accident in the plane, but if you do, your chances of getting killed are higher in that accident. Most accidents (overall) do not happen, for example, on the German Autobahn, where you can go at considerable speed, but in towns where there are speed restrictions. The same goes for fatal accidents.


For those that are interested, the number of road fatalities in NZ are approx 400 per year and 3200 in the UK, if you take population into account (4 million compared to 60 million) then this works out as approx. 100 deaths (NZ) compared to 53 deaths per million population.


So the comparison is 1:4 for London and NZ, and 1:2 UK and NZ? So, really, in either case (comparing like to like or not), the UK is considerably safer where the roads are concernced. I find this remarkable, especially given the population density in both countries.

Whether it 'feels' safer or not, it isn't, statistically, you have more chances to die on the road in NZ than in the UK.

Daniela

[tiefchord]

Agreed that it is not possible to compare like for like, but comparing a city to a country is surely a stretch.

If you want to do a comparison then you could compare UK to NZ or city to city and yes aggreed that Auckland and London are not comparable, but sure you could use a smaller UK city for comparison.

Not driving to the circumstances is clearly bad, but accidents at higher speeds have more serious consequences.


Actually, not driving to the circumstances is a more common creator of accidents than speeding. Statistics have shown that as speed goes up (to a point), accidents go down.

Quite tired of hearing about the evils of speeding - it's nonsense.

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/speedsci.html <-- mathematical analysis
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008621 <-- US data

This may seem non-controversial now, but at the time the debate was shrill and filled with predictions of doom. Ralph Nader claimed that "history will never forgive Congress for this assault on the sanctity of human life." Judith Stone, president of the Advocates for Highway and Auto Safety, predicted to Katie Couric on NBC's "Today Show" that there would be "6,400 added highway fatalities a year and millions of more injuries." Federico Pena, the Clinton Administration's Secretary of Transportation, declared: "Allowing speed limits to rise above 55 simply means that more Americans will die and be injured on our highways."

And yet, following the increase of highway speed limits after various authorities claimed impending doom, highway deaths went down.

[IanW99]

Actually, not driving to the circumstances is a more common creator of accidents than speeding. Statistics have shown that as speed goes up (to a point), accidents go down.

Quite tired of hearing about the evils of speeding - it's nonsense.

It would be easy to argue that if you are not driving to the circumstances then you are driving too fast. It would also be easy to argue that speed itself is not the problem but not driving appropriately, but this was not the point that I was attempting to make.

It was not that speeding causes accidents, but that if you do have an accident then the consequences are generally more serious at higher speeds. I did quote the following statistic to clarify:-

If you hit an adult pedestrian while driving at 30mph, the survival chance is 80%. But if you hit a pedestrian while driving at 40mph, the pedestrian's chances of dying rises to 90%. (this lowers to 80% for a child).

Hopefully that will now be clear :confused:

Ian

[tiefchord]

Sure, it's clear - let's reduce the global speed limit to 30 mph to reduce the level of possible death to all the pedestrians roaming the roads?

[IanW99]

Sure, it's clear - let's reduce the global speed limit to 30 mph to reduce the level of possible death to all the pedestrians roaming the roads?

Agreed, areas where there are pedestrians, the speed limit should be limited to 30mph (50kph) which is of course why the speed limit in towns and cities is set to this speed.

Ian

[Perksy]

As someone in the media here in the UK, I should point out that fatalities and other prangs in the UK don't get half the coverage they do in NZ. Only half of the crashes get on the police tapes and only a third of that makes it into the press - and you're not going to be reading/listening to every press outlet that uses it.

On the other hand, crash data is, and always has been, big news in NZ because... well to be honest, because the proportion of "bigger" crime isn't there to push it out. I'm not saying bigger crime doesn't happen, just with a population 1/15th the size murders etc happen on average about 1/15th of the time so therefore there's more room for the downtable news.

I am a police press officer and agree to a point that the big picture isn't always out there. We put every fatal crash on our police tape and the majority of serious injuries but we get a significant number of prangs every day that just never see the light of day as it is the the street crime, robberies and anti-social behaviour that gets the most public and media attention.

[wiki]

as it is the the street crime, robberies and anti-social behaviour that gets the most public and media attention.

I agree with you completely. The types of crime you mentioned above are the sorts that always get covered in government figures and therefore in government "inititatives".

In NZ, the government throws a lot of money into road safety and cutting the number of fatalities is one of their "headline" initiatives.

[dharder]

I am a police press officer and agree to a point that the big picture isn't always out there.

But I thought we were talking statistics (those true, unambigious, always correct, objective figures), and not impressions, or 'the big picture'?

I find myself currently having to point out that the murder rate in the UK is significantly lower than that of Germany. Yet the impression here (I'm in Germany at the moment) is that you can't leave the house for fear of being shot, thanks to the media.

I'm well aware that reporting (if you can call what the Herald for example is doing reporting) in NZ will be different than in the UK, but I was more thinking along the lines of actual numbers (deaths on roads), rather than reflections of them in the press.

And unless those statistics are gathered differently, and the definition of what counts as a road traffic death (depends on the number of days you live after a traffic accident whether you enter the statistic or not) is very different in NZ and the UK, the numbers are actually making a fairly clear point.

Daniela

[John Z]

I don't think I saw any causalities concerning "fatal accidents".

Purely talking cold statistics, to me it would make a big difference if a fatal accident is related to a driver being killed by it's own actions, compared to innocent victims being killed by someone else's actions.

Because of the young age where in NZ "children" start to drive I could imagine that it has an effect on these statistics, both ways of course, but I expect more drivers to get killed themselves in this group, having an important effect on the statistic numbers?

This is only what I think right now, if anyone already has the numbers to it that would be perfect.

[sidabrine]

What do you think about this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10462089

The roads are full of people that don't even know that you have to have a license to drive a car...

In any case, I don't think it is any particular cultural group that causes all the havoc on the road (kiwis will be quick to point out that "Asians are bad drivers", but they should really have a better look at themselves!). Driving in Auckland is like driving through a minefield, you have to watch every single car and expect them to do something stupid. So yes, get the safest car you can afford!

Btw, as long as you leave the country once a year, you don't have to change your license (so no need to read the road code and/or go through practical driving test). If anyone cares at all if you have a license to start with...

[tiefchord]

What do you think about this:
In any case, I don't think it is any particular cultural group that causes all the havoc on the road (kiwis will be quick to point out that "Asians are bad drivers", but they should really have a better look at themselves!). Driving in Auckland is like driving through a minefield, you have to watch every single car and expect them to do something stupid. So yes, get the safest car you can afford!


Coming from the US where defensive driving skills have become ingrained since first drive, shouldn't one be exercising this caution anyway? It doesn't necessarily require one to drive a tank in order to survive either - just staying alert and focusing on the matter at hand: driving the car.

[Jameelka]

We had a car accident about 5 weeks ago, on state highway 2 just before state highway 1, and if u know those roads it's quite the norm unfortunately.
Not the roads it's the drivers.
The lady that hit us fell asleep, came across the double yellow lines, over one passing lane that luckily no one was in and bashed into us, as we were travelling on the left lane.
Luckily as I swerved to get out the way she hit the back pax side door on the drivers side and boot, it could have quite easily have been head on.Pleased to say the girls and I were ok just shocked, she managed to miss all the cars behind us and ended up on her roof.She was ok after getting checked out at the hospital.
She is getting done for dangerous driving.
Certainly not something I'd like to go through again!
Mel

[dilanium]

Mel- glad you and the girls are okay!

[Jameelka]

yes thank you, so were we!
thankfully we did n't have our dog in the car, as she sits on the back seats.

[Nick88]

Btw, as long as you leave the country once a year, you don't have to change your license (so no need to read the road code and/or go through practical driving test). If anyone cares at all if you have a license to start with...

When I got my license all I had to do was the theory test, not a practical as well. Have the rules changed? The theory test was ludicrously easy, being just a multiple choice scratch-and-sniff type. You can buy a book at most newsagents that gives you all of the questions and answers that are in the test papers!

Having to leave the country is really not worth it.

[IanW99]

When I got my license all I had to do was the theory test, not a practical as well. Have the rules changed? The theory test was ludicrously easy, being just a multiple choice scratch-and-sniff type. You can buy a book at most newsagents that gives you all of the questions and answers that are in the test papers!

Having to leave the country is really not worth it.

Nope, rules haven't changed, see here for details New residents driving in NZ (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/56.html)

Having to do the practical test depends on which country you come from, license is not current or you haven't held it for 2 years or more.

There are online tests for the questions as well, which is the cheapest option.

For those that leave the country regularly it might be an option, but otherwise don't think it is worth the hastle either.

Ian

[andreamatt]

Would far rather drive through Wellington's CBD (don't worry: I use the bus much much more than the car!) than drive the 8 mile or so length of the A386 from Tavistock to Plymouth anyday.

Andrea

[IanW99]

Always forget to check the parent site of this forum, but on there it gives the following facts:-

Latest annual road deaths for every 100,000 of population show that New Zealand's roads are getting safer:

>> UK: 6 per 100,000
>> Canada: 7
>> Australia: 8
>> NZ: 10
>> Spain: 15
>> United States: 15

Not so many years ago, New Zealand had 13. The major reason for more deaths in NZ compared to the UK is fewer few multi-lane highways in NZ.

Ian

[dragonfly]

I work in motorway maintenance, the surprising thing is not the number crashes on English roads but the fact that we accept daily death and choas at the hands of demented middle manager or sales rep in his/her BMW as just part of using the roads. It doesn't hit the news cos we don't seem to care.
OK rant over

[Perksy]

Dare I suggest that one reason the stats might appear comparatively low in the UK is that it is very difficult to have a fatal road crash when you are travelling at a top speed of 5mph in a traffic jam!!!!

Sorry for the rant but have just paid a visit to that famous British car park known as the M25 and was acquainted with probably the equivalent of the NZ population in the 2 hours it took me to travel 13 miles! Another stark reminder of why I don't want to be in this country anymore.

Going back to the stats, maths is not my strong point but you surely have to look at more than just the comparison of crashes per head of population. In my job I deal with lots of requests from the media for stats related to policing and my experience has made me a strong supporter of the phrase "there are lies, damn lies and statistics". They are so open to interpretation and manipulation to suit a cause and in the case of SOME journalism (the best negative story that can be found). I say some as my own background is journalism and I am not stereotyping but being realistic from personal experience and knowledge.

You need to look at all the other factors that have caused those deaths - speed, road conditions, drink, drugs etc. In the UK last year 3150 people were killed in road crashes. In the last 12 months in NZ (roughly the same size geographically) 406 have died. You MIGHT find if you anaylse those figures that a much higher percentage of those crashes in NZ were single vehicle crashes and/or crashes where the person responsible for the crash was the person who died. It might be therefore that a much higher percentage of 'innocent' drivers or passengers were killed in the UK crashes. It doesn't change the fact that per head of population the UK is higher and it doesn't make the loss of life of those responsible for their own fate any more acceptable, but it would in that scenario make the chances of a sensible and focused driver in NZ less likely to be the victim of road death than in the UK.

I hope that makes sense. I have no idea whether the above scenario is true or not but in short my point is that it iss easy to be scared by statistics if you just take them on face value.

Sure, raise the questions, maybe research the answers to help you in your decisions, but there are also times when you just have to grab life with both hands and accept that what will be will be.

[veronica]

Hey Perksy that thought crossed my mind as well. having said that I do find the standard of courtesy on the roads here lower than the UK. but the amounds of accidents I actually see here in Chch is less. ( maybe cos I miss driving in the rush hour.)


I think there is a bit of misconception in some of the posts written above. There is not 3rd party insurance coverage in the registration. One of our backpackers had an accident whilst uninsured and had to pay the full amount out of his own pocket. But it is true that you don't have to have insurance. Be stupid not to though.

The other glib remark that was made was about the test being ludicrously easy. if you already have held a driving licence in another country then all you have to take is the theory test, and yes that is fairly easy if you already have the knowledge of driving and the rules of a different country in the memory box already. But if you were to take the test aas a novice driver with no experience then I doubt that it would be found easier in either country.

The other remark that concerned me was that if you left NZ and reentered then it would negate having to take the theory test. I think the wording is if you can live in NZ for a year before your old country driving licence becomes illegal to drive here on. leaving the country and reentering doesnt change the date you started living here and thats the date that counts.

I won't go into the stats on driving fatalities but would be very interested to know where most of the fatal accidents happen, my understanding of it is that more happen on country roads, whether due to drinking, fatigue or 'to fast for the conditions' I don't know but for the population density of the different areas I believe that the rural areas are worse per head of population.

[IanW99]

I think there is a bit of misconception in some of the posts written above. There is not 3rd party insurance coverage in the registration. One of our backpackers had an accident whilst uninsured and had to pay the full amount out of his own pocket. But it is true that you don't have to have insurance. Be stupid not to though.

Actually, the OP was (I assume) referring to 3rd party cover as provided by ACC which is partly funded by vehicle registration:-

"A tariff on the price of petrol and from a component of the motor vehicle licensing fee."

But I think it is a valid point that it isn't the same coverage as 3rd party cover that exists in the UK.

The other glib remark that was made was about the test being ludicrously easy. if you already have held a driving licence in another country then all you have to take is the theory test, and yes that is fairly easy if you already have the knowledge of driving and the rules of a different country in the memory box already. But if you were to take the test aas a novice driver with no experience then I doubt that it would be found easier in either country.

Good point, and yes you are right, for those who already know how to drive, the test is very easy but that is to be expected. When I did the test, I saw many other people fail.

The other remark that concerned me was that if you left NZ and reentered then it would negate having to take the theory test. I think the wording is if you can live in NZ for a year before your old country driving licence becomes illegal to drive here on. leaving the country and reentering doesnt change the date you started living here and thats the date that counts.

Actually this does appear to be true, the actual wording is:-

"If you do have a current overseas driver licence or international driving permit, you can drive using that for a maximum of 12 months from the date you arrive in New Zealand."

There is no requirement that it counts from the first time you entered NZ. They don't even appear to check this when you apply for your test. Goes against the spirit of the law in my opinion though.

Ian

[IanW99]

...
I won't go into the stats on driving fatalities but would be very interested to know where most of the fatal accidents happen, my understanding of it is that more happen on country roads, whether due to drinking, fatigue or 'to fast for the conditions' I don't know but for the population density of the different areas I believe that the rural areas are worse per head of population.

Not sure if this is the info you are interested in but it does give a good breakdown on accidents / age / location etc:- Road Toll (http://www.transport.govt.nz/road-toll1/)

Ian

[veronica]

the only 3rd party coverage the ACC gives you is for people who may be injured, doesn't include vehicles.