[mikeandtillie]

Hi all

I've been lurking on this forum for ages, and thought it was about time I posted as reading some of the recent posts on IT job hunting from home countries I can relate to what a lot of you are saying.

Basically I've worked in IT for 8 years now, I'm 26 years old and I am experienced and certified in IBM Lotus Domino and Oracle Database 10g, plus ITIL Certification.

I have applied for around 40 jobs in the last 8 weeks or so, I have had 10 agencies call me directly.

I feel the frustration of my IT counterparts. I keep being told to either land in NZ on visitors permit, which I could do - but risky, especially with my whole family in tow. Or just told that they don't want to interview as a don't 100% match the citeria (ie I only match 90% of it?!?).

Recently, I'm being considered by the NZ Police for a post, although I have had 3 phone calls arranged, each time not being called as either person to call me was away, then the next time couldn't call as Police lines don't allow international calls and then thirdly, just plain forgot - although told that my CV and my experience is being spoken about. Which is great but not that encouraging.

As for Datacom (Which I heard mentioned by others), I am waiting to hear whether they will call me or not, as because I don't have commercial experience in one area of Oracle databases (RAC for those that are curious), I don't match the bill and hence don't want to contact me - although the agent I'm in contact with (top guy actually and has stood by me and kept contact with me since I first started applying for jobs) is having dinner with the recruiting guys from Datacom this very moment!!

I do find the attitudes of employers (and agencies) in NZ very weird - and constantly see posts that I have applied for previously (and just told no although I could competently and professionally do the job well) being readvertised! Crazy.

Just to be clear, my CV is in NZ format, employers and agencies are aware of my availability (3-5 weeks) and obviously of my requirement for a job offer to get a work permit to enter NZ (like thousands of immigrants before) and I'm British as well.

I also find the all the agencies tell you how great you are and that you'd be perfect for the role and that I come across well on the phone and I'm a shoe-in. Then the following week I'll get a short email, in fact here's an example of what I received recently from an agency that had said they had loads of client companies on their books that would love to have someone of my experience, character and knowledge:

Hey after speaking to my colleagues - the best thing for you is to get on a plane - come out here and attend interviews.

Our clients are wanting to hire now so it is best this way.

Look forward in hearing from you.

So, guess I'll book my ticket now then on that confident response!?

I'm normally a positive guy, but I need some feedback from all of you on here (no flaming please). I have skills in demand, frequently told I'm a great communicator on the phone (along with a good candidate), I'm young and completely viable for a new life in New Zealand.

Am I just being impatient and frustrated here? Am I actually getting a good response from agencies?

Help me!

Mike

[Mels]

MY OH dealt directly with agencies, this resulted in a number of false starts but eventually a job offer - we we couldn't take just at that time :wah :wah and I'm still miserable about it.

Then when things were sorted here (crumbly parents recovered) we tried again. This time he got an interview but was told he was 'over qualified'.
Is this a euphamism (? spelling) for too old? at 49yrs?

but we will still keep going. You will see from many of these posts that stubborness is a feature/ quality required in bucket loads :)

good luck and just keep going.

[mikeandtillie]

How many false starts?

Myself and my poor wife (who has to put up with ups and downs as much as I) are getting to our wits end. It's absolutely ridiculous in some instances where agency promises and false starts happen.

Over-qualified, I doubt that's age related - probably more to do with the fact that companies (and many many agencies) are poor at job specification and selection (words from the experienced and commited recruiter that I am in contact with). Infact he called me this morning after I emailed him regarding my disappointment with Datacom and job hunting on the whole - a committed and genuine guy. He shared with me that NZ employers are notoriously poor at selection, particular when it comes to migrants - they like the easy option, local people. Problem is, he said, that often those skill sets in demand are just not available in the local market, hence the readvertisement of posts, again and again. He said that once they realise they aren't being quite so realistic they move their sights a bit more toward migrants, people with not quite 100% skills match, etc.

It's nice to know (in a backwards kind of way) that it's not just myself that's experiencing issues with finding work from the UK.

All I want is that job offer so we can move on into the next stages of the journey!

Good luck to your OH and keep me posted!

Thanks

Mike

[thezorbster]

Have you tried mailing your CV to any companies directly? We were having the same story from agencies re needing you to be on the ground, we had a definite arrival date in the country yet OH was still not being put forward for many jobs, all agencies saying he needed to be physically in the country to be considered. We then decided we would be proactive and that he should mail his CV to companies in the area we wanted to live in. He did and was offered a job via e-mail without even being interviewed. I believe if you want something badly then you do your best to make it happen. Try to remain focused, positive and go for it.

Good luck!

[Tia Maria]

Have you tried the companies that go to the expos? EDS & Synergy were the main IT guys at the expo we went to. They are obviously willing to recruit from abroad.

My OH came here without a job (but with the security of PR) and within half an hour of putting his CV on Seek got several phone calls from IT recruiting firms with possible jobs. So they are telling the truth about job availability

I know it sounds risky bringing your family without a job offer but it really is easy to get an IT job here if you come to Auckland & Wellington and less so Christchurch. You may have to chop and change a bit to find one you like - but that is relatively easy also. :nice1

The other advantage to actually being here is that you can see the workplace for yourself and size up better if it would suit you or not. Also you can give yourself a couple of weeks holiday (money permitting) when you step of the plane and set up housing, schools or simply find your favourite beach.

I suspect the companies are just unwilling to take the risk that people will definitely uproot their family, pay all that money and fly half way round the world to work for them. You may know you're reliable but I bet a lot of people change their minds at the last minute, or can't sell their house etc etc.

If EDS or Synergy don't suit perhaps you can find out what other IT companies have done the expos?

Good luck

Cheers

Tia

[Silverwing86]

Hi Mike,

Sorry to hear you're having such trouble, but I believe your experiences do reflect what most people go through when applying for jobs from abroad. There does seem to be a genuine reluctance to accept the extra work involved when hiring a new immigrant who is dependant on a job offer for PR.

That said, it does happen from time to time, but I understand that patience is the key word. Not something you'll want to be hearing right now I'm sure :rolleyes:, but I'm afraid that just seems to be the way it goes.

Just out of curiosity, are you indeed dependant on a job offer for PR ? If you'd be able to get enough points to make the cut off mark of 100, it might be worth submitting the EOI without it. That way you're in the process already and you can always add a job offer whilst in the process, which will then speed up your application. Moreover, you never know, you might get through without the job offer after all which would relieve the pressure and give you a lot more freedom !

Of course, all of this is dependant on being able to scrape together the 100 points needed and between 100 and 140 points it will take longer, but you will have a sense of working on the problem from two sides rather than one if you know what I mean ?

Also, as you can see from the latest fortnightly EOI selection,

The most recent selection of Expressions of Interest (EOI) under the Skilled Migrant Category took place at 1.00pm NZ time, Wednesday, 12 September 2007.

The following EOIs were selected:

All EOIs at or above 140 points = 482 EOIs (1092 registrants)
All EOIs with a job or job offer claiming total points between 100 and 135 points = 103 EOIs (280 registrants)
All EOIs claiming 15 points for work experience in an area of absolute skill shortage and with a points total between 100 and 135 points = 58 EOIs (172 registrants)
All EOIs claiming 10 points for work experience in an area of absolute skill shortage and with a points total between 100 and 135 points = 32 EOIs (66 registrants)
All EOIs claiming 10 points for a qualification in an area of absolute skill shortage and with a points total between 100 and 135 points = 55 EOIs (87 registrants)
All EOIs between 130 and 135 points where there is no points claim for a job or job offer, work experience in an area of absolute skill shortage, or qualification in an area of absolute skill shortage = 47 EOIs (130 registrants).you get selected more quickly between 100 and 135 points if you have claimed points in an area of absolute skill shortage (which, to my knowledge, most IT professionals would).

My OH is also in IT, he applied with 125 points without job offer and found that he was both pulled out of the EOI pool, and awarded a Case Officer after submitting our ITA, fairly quickly. INZ seemed quite eager to get him here !

He also had some contacts with agencies before getting PR (just testing the waters on his part) and, although they were mightily interested in him and he did end up having a telephone interview with an employer, a lot seemed to ride on him actually having PR in hand.

(In the end it didn't work out because the agent turned out to be rather inexperienced and had mispresented OH so on closer inspection he wasn't quite the perfect fit the employer was looking for. The employer was still interested in him though and did ask him to get in touch once he arrived in NZ and was still seeking employment.)

In the end OH's employer at the time didn't want to lose him and he brought his job over with him (lucky or what ?!). He now happily works from home and is cheaper on overhead costs here than in The Netherlands, so everybody's happy :clap !

Not entirely sure if any of this is helpful to you, but I do wish you the best of luck in this process. Keep the faith, it will happen for you !

Silver

[Chiba]

Same here. I'm getting on a plane next weekend to go and meet agents and have interviews. Do you have PR yet? That started the emails flowing for me.

[dragonfly]

hi Mike I am in same boat as you - domino developer, ITIL qualification, but am older with mainframe cobol experience too (showing my age there!). Have decided to try for pr and see how it goes - don't have guts to take family - oh & 2 kids - other side of world on spec. If I get PR, then plan to do hol in nz combined with job hunt - others on forum have done it that way.
good luck!
Sue

[Mels]

Hi Mike,

Can't remember how many false starts exactly. The agency had a few 'possibilities' that were going on. Then Christmas came and it all went quite and then after Feb 'ish things started again. But it wasn't 'till summer (UK) that something came along that led to the offer. That process took about 3 'phone interviews and 2 months.

My OH works in a fairly specific area of telecoms so that also limits the market place. So if anyone wants an 'absolute genius' in mediation and revenue assurance let me know!!!!!! :)

It just takes time so keep going.

[skibumwa]

I work @ Datacom. What department or hiring manager did you try to interview with? Just wondering...

Also, have you to come down to NZ for a reccy trip. I ask because Datacom seems to want the potential employee to be here in Wellington or Auckland for an interview -- that's when they get excited about someone.

If you haven't come down for a reccy trip yet, book you flights now before all the managers here start taking time off from work and then you need to wait until the end of January for an interview..

PS. Datacom is a very nice to work by the way...

Send me a private message if you want to take this off the public forum...

Hi all

I've been lurking on this forum for ages, and thought it was about time I posted as reading some of the recent posts on IT job hunting from home countries I can relate to what a lot of you are saying.

Basically I've worked in IT for 8 years now, I'm 26 years old and I am experienced and certified in IBM Lotus Domino and Oracle Database 10g, plus ITIL Certification.

I have applied for around 40 jobs in the last 8 weeks or so, I have had 10 agencies call me directly.

I feel the frustration of my IT counterparts. I keep being told to either land in NZ on visitors permit, which I could do - but risky, especially with my whole family in tow. Or just told that they don't want to interview as a don't 100% match the citeria (ie I only match 90% of it?!?).

Recently, I'm being considered by the NZ Police for a post, although I have had 3 phone calls arranged, each time not being called as either person to call me was away, then the next time couldn't call as Police lines don't allow international calls and then thirdly, just plain forgot - although told that my CV and my experience is being spoken about. Which is great but not that encouraging.

As for Datacom (Which I heard mentioned by others), I am waiting to hear whether they will call me or not, as because I don't have commercial experience in one area of Oracle databases (RAC for those that are curious), I don't match the bill and hence don't want to contact me - although the agent I'm in contact with (top guy actually and has stood by me and kept contact with me since I first started applying for jobs) is having dinner with the recruiting guys from Datacom this very moment!!

I do find the attitudes of employers (and agencies) in NZ very weird - and constantly see posts that I have applied for previously (and just told no although I could competently and professionally do the job well) being readvertised! Crazy.

Just to be clear, my CV is in NZ format, employers and agencies are aware of my availability (3-5 weeks) and obviously of my requirement for a job offer to get a work permit to enter NZ (like thousands of immigrants before) and I'm British as well.

I also find the all the agencies tell you how great you are and that you'd be perfect for the role and that I come across well on the phone and I'm a shoe-in. Then the following week I'll get a short email, in fact here's an example of what I received recently from an agency that had said they had loads of client companies on their books that would love to have someone of my experience, character and knowledge:

Hey after speaking to my colleagues - the best thing for you is to get on a plane - come out here and attend interviews.

Our clients are wanting to hire now so it is best this way.

Look forward in hearing from you.

So, guess I'll book my ticket now then on that confident response!?

I'm normally a positive guy, but I need some feedback from all of you on here (no flaming please). I have skills in demand, frequently told I'm a great communicator on the phone (along with a good candidate), I'm young and completely viable for a new life in New Zealand.

Am I just being impatient and frustrated here? Am I actually getting a good response from agencies?

Help me!

Mike

[Tia Maria]

Mels wrote:

Then Christmas came and it all went quite and then after Feb 'ish things started again.

Yup things go very quiet right up to mid Feb so any progress you can make before Christmas would be good.

Cheers

Tia

[mikeandtillie]

Skibumwa: Could you get in touch with me on my private email account: mwood at imperialweb dot co dot uk? I would appreciate it. Thanks!



I work @ Datacom. What department or hiring manager did you try to interview with? Just wondering...

Also, have you to come down to NZ for a reccy trip. I ask because Datacom seems to want the potential employee to be here in Wellington or Auckland for an interview -- that's when they get excited about someone.

If you haven't come down for a reccy trip yet, book you flights now before all the managers here start taking time off from work and then you need to wait until the end of January for an interview..

PS. Datacom is a very nice to work by the way...

Send me a private message if you want to take this off the public forum...

[mikeandtillie]

Well thanks for all your replys so far.

Ok - Well to answer the questions some of which you've thrown my way.

PR - I can't start applying for PR without a job offer. Without it I have 85 points - this is because I don't have a degree. Unless I'm missing something here - but I only get 5 points as I have a basic qualification (BTEC National Diploma in Computer Studies). As for my certifications, I should imagine they fall into the same level - which is level 4.

I shall be attending the Expo in October, which I am excited about. I haven't made an approach to EDS or Synergy yet - but my recruitment friend is getting in touch with them soon if Datacom aren't willing to talk to me.

My wife and I have discussed me coming over to NZ for a week maybe and doing interviews that way... I'm unsure how successful this is as a method of getting a job? Has anyone else done this? This is kind of a last resort for us, as we're trying to save money to help us settle - obviously tickets and accomodation in NZ would cost me near a grand for a week - which would eat into our settling in fund a little!

As for house selling etc, we rent - so we really are available to land in 3-5 weeks and start in a job.

Thanks

Mike

[jgander]

mikeandtillie,

I completely understand! I work in IT as a Service Manager and went to NZ for a reccy / meet agents / interviews for a week. It was well worth it. While there I got three interviews and met countless agents, all of whom were, as you say, very positive. Out of the dozen or so I met / registered with, only really a couple have come through.

I too am talking with Datacom, and find them rather good, but I suppose it depends on the area you are working with.

Points wise I am in the same position as you, infact it sounds like we are both in the same boat.

If you want to get in touch off line, please do - freyasdad at hotmail dot co dot uk - I'm happy to listen / chat / provide more contacts etc.

JAmes

[Chiba]

You know, I keep hearing about how good the London Expo is, but the one I went to in March sucked. Did I go to the wrong one or something? It was in some hotel; one big room; NZIS in attendance, etc. There were only two IT recruiters, and they could only really say what the ones I've spoken to since said: be there or be square...

[checkout]

looks like I am not the only one. I have been told that its required that I be physically present in New Zealand to be considered. So it seems just holding a PR doesnt help.

[Tia Maria]

You can contact both EDS and Synergy directly rather than going through a recruitment company who I assume skim something off the top.

I would have thought there was an advantage to doing it before the expos as that is when they get a lot of CVs handed to them. If I remember correctly EDS were doing interviews the same weekend if your CV made the cut but that would also mean that any CVs sent in before that could be interviewed while they are in the UK also.

When we went to the expo we emailed them first to establish who exactly was going to be there. We just told them we were interested in IT companies, Banks and Removal firms and they sent us a list of relevant companies. Definitely worth doing to save disappointment!

Cheers

Tia

[crispyking]

I went to the Expo in London in October last year (Chiba, I have heard that it is infinitely better than the March event) and met/registered with several agents and companies with whom I kept in touch with afterwards - the general recommendation was to go to NZ for interviews to show 'commitment' ...

I came to NZ in March this year for a few weeks job-hunt/holiday and had interviews pre-arranged in Auckland and Wellington and managed to organise a few more whilst here. The most useful agents were working for Telecom - http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,8748,205580-203059,00.html - and Helium - www.heliumnz.co.nz - I was offered a couple of jobs whilst here and accepted one with Telecom/Gen-i (largest NZ IT company) - and was told at the interview (and it's still true) that NZ (as well as T/G) is vastly under-resourced in people with IT skills.
If I hadn't been offered and accepted a job then we had considered just selling up and coming over to NZ considering how 'desperate' companies are for skilled migrants.

I have come over on a work visa and applied for PR here - although from personal experience and other posts in this forum on the topic (usually entitled 'frustrated'!!), it would be worth trying to sort out PR in the UK first as it's usually quicker as things can move fairly slowly here which can be a bit annoying/frustrating!

Basically, NZ is crying out for people with IT skills and if you are dedicated enough it should work out for you ... :yes

[mgbridges]

First off let me say that Synergy are now called Fronde and I work for them. They're a great company but we're not really recruiting at the moment.

My experience (and I've mentioned this before) is that getting a job without making at least a reccy visit is very difficult. I applied to several companies (both direct and via agencies) after attending the October expo last year. I had 2 or 3 telephone interviews but they just went quiet. So I arranged a one-week reccy during which I had about 7 interviews and received 3 offers.

Employers and agencies are looking for a measure of commitment from prospective candidates. Many have been burned by "toe in the water" people who decided not to go through with it after being offered a job.

So my advice is to go with the reccy visit. That's not to say it's impossible to get a job from the UK, just a lot more frustrating.

Martin

[mikeandtillie]

You know what guys - you have been extremely helpful.

It's so difficult to make sense of an employment market when agencies don't explain what's going on properly - what you have all said so far is making sense.

I think for us personally, we're going to attend the Expo and see what kind of response we get. If they say 'Mike, if you arrive in NZ tomorrow, we would definitely find you a job asap.' then I think we'll book ourselves the tickets and just go for it!

We're just at the end of the line with being in the UK, me in particular where my current employment is just another kick in the teeth daily.

Just out of interest - those of you that replied and have found jobs through the reccy - what is it exactly that you do? Are you networks? DBAs (That's what I do)? support? project management? service delivery? etc?

Regards

Mike

[mgbridges]

Project Manager here.

Martin

[crispyking]

service delivery, though there are plenty of support roles too ... :nice1

[Paul & Rach]

I work in IT and faced a similar situation. I sent off CV's saying that I was due to arrive in NZ within 2 months. I managed to get a telephone interview and arrived here with a job. If you fullfill the criteria for the job and can convince the employer you are coming anyway....you have a good chance

[Tia Maria]

mikeandtillie wrote:

I think for us personally, we're going to attend the Expo and see what kind of response we get. If they say 'Mike, if you arrive in NZ tomorrow, we would definitely find you a job asap.' then I think we'll book ourselves the tickets and just go for it!

Just be warned that the people we spoke to at the expo were mainly CV collectors, interviews were being arranged for the following day/week and I suspect they are the people who can really inform you about the job situation. That doesn't mean you won't get lucky and get to speak to the right person but just be prepared they may just want to take your details.

Some people filled out forms, some handed in CVs and I noticed some handed in CVs on disc also - I guess anything to distinguish themselves from the pile. Also, as you would expect, the expo was busier in the middle part of the day and quieter earlier and later on.

There are quite a few freebies you can get once you've finished speaking to the IT companies (this can be over quite quickly if there is only 2!), we picked up quite a few bits for the kids and also got a voucher for money off our moving costs - which we did end up using.

It also got very hot and claustrophobic round lunch time, so worth checking out eating places nearby and going back when it quietens down. Try to avoid taking too much stuff, we noticed people with large bags and buggies and they were struggling to get round. But you will need something to carry all your freebies home!

We didn't find it very useful on the IT job front but we did get a lot of info from the banks, removal firms and currency people.

Cheers

Tia

[jgander]

You know what guys - you have been extremely helpful.

It's so difficult to make sense of an employment market when agencies don't explain what's going on properly - what you have all said so far is making sense.

I think for us personally, we're going to attend the Expo and see what kind of response we get. If they say 'Mike, if you arrive in NZ tomorrow, we would definitely find you a job asap.' then I think we'll book ourselves the tickets and just go for it!

We're just at the end of the line with being in the UK, me in particular where my current employment is just another kick in the teeth daily.

Just out of interest - those of you that replied and have found jobs through the reccy - what is it exactly that you do? Are you networks? DBAs (That's what I do)? support? project management? service delivery? etc?

Regards

Mike
www.woodfamilywellington.com

IT Service Manager (ITIL accredited) Service Support or Service Delivery works with me.

[DMcG]

IT companies in NZ seem to have very definite requirements and you need to remember that the number of general opportunities for a specialist area is much more limited. If you're an operations Oracle DBA then you're really only looking at two or three dozen companies that are big enough to require a DBA for doing Oracle and nothing else. You other options is a services company like Datacom or Gen-i (who were looking for an Oracle DBA a couple of moths ago).

It'll help greatly if you can show knowledge in other database areas (mostly SQL Server - but there's some Sybase in use by the government) as the jack-of-all-trades is more in fitting with the company size in NZ.

Dougie

[Al_Clark]

I think unless you're incredibly lucky, a trip to NZ will be necessary. I liken this process to selling something expensive to someone you haven't met and they don't have a picture of what you're selling, only a description from you; naturally, a commitment from them will be more difficult to secure. That was a long-winded way of saying a face-to-face interview is the best thing for both you and them. My OH and I have discussed this and she said I should go over on my own thereby having no distractions. I am a total novice compared to the experience you have already had of the NZ recruitment 'process' but I can picture myself in exactly the same position. Don't be discouraged if this is truly what you want to do.

btw, I emailed my CV to IBM in it's existing (U.K.) format and was told that it was fine as it was - what IS the format for a CV in NZ?

[thirtysomethings]

From personal experience I only got polite responses from job enquiries whilst I was in the UK.
Once I had a date that I was definitely arriving and since applying for roles once landed the response has been considerably more positive. Out of 5 applications 4 interview opportunities. I have 2 this week 1 more on Friday.
I have just used the seek website up to now.
Good luck

[Familyofmonkeys]

You know, I keep hearing about how good the London Expo is, but the one I went to in March sucked. Did I go to the wrong one or something? It was in some hotel; one big room; NZIS in attendance, etc. There were only two IT recruiters, and they could only really say what the ones I've spoken to since said: be there or be square...

Apparently the October Expo is much better than the March one, or at least that had been the case for the last couple of years prior to us moving to NZ. There are more large IT companies etc at the October expo than March....we did ask the companies who were there about this. They said something about going to both Manchester and Glasgow for recruitment stuff in October, but less recruitment opportunities in March so they don't always bother.

[thirtysomethings]

Got a job offer from my second interview - they emailed for references the same day. On Friday I accepted and start on November 5th. The pay is considerably lower than what I would work for in the UK - however its a start -Kiwi work experience also. ( ITSupport analyst for local institution) Im looking forward to it ! Good luck to all with there job hunting.
I have seen threads reference changing CV styles I kept mine the same from the UK filled both sides of A4. Short paragraph for profile - then keys skills. Chronology of roles with short summaries - education quals and then brief personal summary - interests etc.