[boatieman]

Hi everyone,

We have been here in bop, for around 9 months. We have been trying to find a suitable house and have generally been finding out about Nz life. We don't need to rush into anything as regards work or buying a house as we have found ourselves a very nice rental and interest rates are pretty kind to us so we can get by if we don't go too mad!
We have tried to be open minded, but have found we have become quite critical about what we have found, in a number of areas!
The theme, being that the general standard of things is just not up to the standard that we expected of a developed country
Lets just list what we find lacking, but first say that on a one to one basis most people are very friendly and helpful. In-fact we have made friends more readily than we ever would have in the UK.
The fishing is excellent!!!


Okay, so here we go!

Education, well we have a bright 6 year old. With cognitive skills ranging from 8-11yrs depending on the relevant test. School is extremely repetitive, they do the same things at the same time every day. She is getting to the point where she finds it uninteresting and hates the routine. We feel that she is at risk of dumbing down, just to fit in. Talking to others in the education world they say that kids from Aussie and Uk are two years ahead. This appears to be true. But what does the school do? Get her to work on her own!?! in order to encourage independent learning.

Housing
to put it bluntly.. Last Saturday, on one news there was an article stating that NZ housing was 30 Years behind current standards. They quoted poor efficiency as one of the major factors. In Invercargill, in the majority of student rentals, it was warmer to live in the fridge, as it was warmer than the room.!!
We have found the general standard of building to be poor, lacking sufficient heating and insulation.
Why don't you build I hear you say. Okay, we want double, glazing insulation and maybe underfloor heating. OOOh you don't need that here ???
Excuse me! But do you know that the WHO, recommend that a dwelling should be kept at 18c for good health????

Drugs and Alcohol

Nz Herald today.. Nz Second in the world to Canada in the use of cannabis. Children as young
as 7, being given cannabis by relatives ????

17 year old drunk in charge. Given 4 month suspended licence and $1000 fine for being 8x over legal limit. In UK he would have had at least 4 year ban and would possibly not get licence back for a very long time.



Driving[U] Well having driven in London, for 20 years and even more out of London, the standard in NZ is appalling.

ACC
Well I can see the point. But does acc take away individual responsibility. As in "don't worry as Acc will take care of it".

Choice
Well this seems cover a plethora of Things, poor broadband, TV, Car options, Shoes, etc . There is a very restricted choice. There is also a lack of information to enable our own informed choice.

Debate

Some are interested in political debate. Why is there no one here that can pin the government down. In the UK there are political commentators that shred government ministers for breakfast. Maybe here they should ask them to come out side??? Recent developments when a minister assaulted a political opponent outside parliament, are just not on. Whilst Clark has a reshuffle and keeps the same minister on!

Domestic Violence

Whilst I'm not a subscriber to this it would appear that many kiwi's are.


environmental Friendliness.

The local council has sprayed the local playing fields, to stop earthworm casts, with a toxic chemical that is banned to farmers and has been banned in the EU for 30 years due to its carcinogenic properties. This playing field is used by schools and the general public daily.

Nz imports a lot of vehicles from Japan as japan no longer wants these old un-environmentally friendly cars. As the emission laws are not very strict in Nz these vehicles are welcomed in NZ due to their cheapness.
But Things are changing after Jan 2008. But what happens to the existing polluters.

Bop is a big fruit growing area, but fruit growing seems to come before the health of the locals. Hence the cloud of spray that comes up from Te Puke at the end of August, causing many urti's.

Recycling ???

ommph

Where is your get up and go NZ. Where's that creative spark, Wheres the vitality???? Is Nz in denial????

Oh, I could go on but would you keep on reading ???

But with all of this i'm trying to remain objective about the future here in NZ.

Any comments ????

[james the mechanic]

Any comments ????[/QUOTE]

You whinging pom :laugh
I am a bit confused, do you like NZ or not?
Anyway welcome to the forum all the same.

[debnjohn]

I think you might be suffering from culture shock. Poor choice in shoes? They're not a Kiwi garment of choice.

Incidentally we moaned incessantly about lack of choice when we first arrived. But you adapt. My wife went back to the UK for a holiday this year, and whilst there went into a shoe shop to get a cheap pair of black 'jandals'. She ended up walking out of the shop empty-handed as she found choosing between the 15+ styles available too overwhelming :)

[Woolfie]

I dont intend to offend but it sounds like you are clinging onto your past uk lifestyle and have not fully understood the Kiwi way of life. My mothers response was in the same vein when we said we are going " but its a backward country- she said" I just can't stand anymore whinging comments, just get on with it and if you don't like it,leave. There are plenty more people desperately waiting to be accepted into new zealand because they understand the way of life and have choosen this for their future and are prepared to work hard to make a go of it.

Remember it's not the uk.

Welcome to the forum

Kindest regards

Woolfie

[bobbyj]

Why don't you have a think about the positive things which made you move to NZ in the first place? I know we look at the place with rose tinted specs on when we take those first steps...but did you honestly think you were moving to the England of the South?? The whole point about moving there, IMHO, is to experience a new life away from all the crap you have to put up with in the UK. Away from the crowds and filth. Away from the random stabbings and shootings in the streets.

If you don't like the education your child is getting, why not get a tutor in to develop her after school...or you could always compare it to the UK where she would be a bright student in a class of 40 odd kids getting no attention from the teacher.

Do you honestly prefer the sleaze embroilled, inept and dysfunctional Government in the UK because they sack people if they have a bit of handbags-at-dawn outside the parliament? To be honest, I'd rather have a Government who stood firm in the face of pressure from the US and a whole host of other countries regarding issues that actually matter such as going to war, rather than make a big deal out of something which most people would feel is irrelevant in comparison.

Maybe you are homesick (it will happen to all of us at somepoint), but its sad that you feel that strongly about the bad things in New Zealand when you are one of the very few lucky ones to experience life over there. Out of the 7 odd Billion people on this planet, you are one of only 3 million who can call an amazing country home and you should feel privileged. I'm not there yet (arriving in February) but I have been counting down the days for the last couple of years and now its coming up soon I have never been so excited about anything before. I know it will be difficult at times, but I cannot wait to get there. And I guarantee you I will not once moan about how things cannot compare to the UK (my Kiwi girlfriend will probably moan about it...but then she CAN because she is a Kiwi haha).

[leachio]

Ahhh poor Boatieman it looks like ur gonna get a wee bit of grief for expressin ur opinions, thats not fair and I applaud you for being honest. Ive been to NZ and come home again for diff reasons to you but all the issues you identified are real. Everyone leaves the UK for their own reasons and for some it will work for others it won't. A fellow forumite said to me yesterday that 'one man's pleasure is another man's poison' and I think thats a great way to describe NZ, and we must remember we must walk a mile in another man's shoes before we judge him.

Welcome to the forum and I hope you continue to post :)

[spudulike]

Hi Boatieman and welcome to what is (usually) a very supportive forum. You seem to have caught it at a bad time with some unfair replies by many people who are not even in NZ yet, and therefore can't begin to imagine your experiences.

I have also been to NZ (and love it) and come back to the UK for different reasons to you (mainly financial) - although many of the issues you have pointed out are very real. I find in both NZ and the UK there is good and bad everything from crime to schools. I don't think you should be expected to pay for private tutoring for your child as the schools should be meeting their needs so I would look for another school.

I'm sorry you're feeling down and hope things pick up for you soon - it's still very early days. I'm sure some of the more supportive forumites will be along to give you some pearls of wisdom soon.

All the best.

L

[colindp]

boatieman,

You have an opinion and your are quite entitled to express it.....well done. I two spent over two years in NZ and whilst I agree that it is a truly beautiful place to live, beautiful scenery, fresh air and a strong government??? these things do not pay the bills or get our kids through school. Those of you who have yet to get to NZ beware of being too critical of other forumites comments you to may one day be making the return journey for similar reasons to those posted!!!

Good luck to you and all those about to take that leap.....:nice1

[lockstock]

Hi and welcome Boatieman - thanks for your posting. I don't get the sense you were being negative or defeatist at all. I think realistic may be a more appropriate view. We're not there yet but we're pretty sure that it's not going to be all white sand and sunshine.

I've heard about the pesticide/poisons thing elsewhere and it bothers me.
I think the housing thing is pretty much covered on the forum. That worries me.
Driving? Not too chortled about 15 year old behind the wheel but there seem to be noises of concern in high places.

I can't and won't excuse all the downsides but I really look forward to friendliness - everyone remarks on that.

So thanks for sharing your worries with us - and stay with us in case we need to share some with you in the future.:yes

[bobbyj]

I just wanted to drop a line to say that although some may have felt that my last post was a bit on the critical side...it honestly wasn't meant to be :no . I thought that by focusing on the reasons you wanted to move to NZ in the first place, it may go some way to help you to overcome the feelings you are having at the moment. Of course, not having lived there means I don't have experience of the day to day things which grate, and I know for definate I will be homesick and hate certain things about NZ but I know if / when I am in your situation, I could come here to this fantastic forum and get advice from all these people.

Again...I'm sorry if my last post was misconstrued in any way :(

[swissmissdesigner]

Boatieman: I understand where you come from and I hope that everything will work out for you and your family!

big hug!
Anna

[migratory birds]

I'm not sure how to post a link to a previous discussion but from forum search "services for gifted children" and a brief discussion I started will pop up.

For info on One Day Schools:
http://www.georgeparkyncentre.org/ods.html

Also, look into Discovery School - not sure if there is only one for gifted kids (in Christchurch) or if there are two, incl Porirua??

[Debbie P.]

Hi Boatieman, just want to say what others have already said here - don't know why you were jumped on so comprehensively in the first few replies! I'm still in the UK and I welcome all views, good or bad, so I can be forewarned :D . And there's a few people on here who have gone back to the UK for many of the reasons you outline, so the problems certainly exist.

Sorry you're having a bad time, and I hope that things get better for you. Good luck. :nice1

[Albertz]

Didn't you do any research before you came out?, NZ is different things to different people, each looking for different things, you are lucky that you havent bought here so making the move back "home" wont be such a big step, I hope you find your utopia
Albert

[wilson182]

Hi Boatieman, and welcome to the forum.

The best piece of advise I personally have ever received on this forum was from Avalon. She said that Its OK not to like everything about NZ (or words to that effect, I apologise to her if I have quoted incorrectly). It may sound simple, but it was something that took me a while to accept. When you focus all of your time and energy on something, its VERY hard to accept that there will be things about that are not as good as you thought/hopped they would be.

At the end of the day NZ will never be everyones cup of tea, and it's a brave person that can admit that after all that planning, worring and moving heaven and earth - it's not quite what they thought it would be.

I hope you can continue to work through it, and that you find your happy place - be it here or in the UK (or wherever :D ).

Debs

[james the mechanic]

Hold on Mate,
I’m reading this thread in amazement…:confused:
I’m not sure their ready to give up and go back yet, are they?
I’m not even sure that overall; they dislike NZ, do they?
Has the Boatman taken offence?
Is he not just venting / whinging about their concerns, observations & assumptions so far?
Boatieman said, ‘But with all of this I’m trying to remain objective about the future here in NZ.’ after all.
I’m still a bit confused; it is a strange first post.
I’ve not taken offence, although I could do, at the suggestion that you must have been in the exact same situation to be permitted to comment, which I find quite absurd. However that’s just someone’s OPINION (which in my OPINION is a woefully misinformed one) .
I word rather people speak from the heart than never speak at all.:nice1
James

[Carol]

No - its not for everyone - and I still dont think I will grow old here - even after nearly 12 years of living here.
I will probably end my days wherever my children end up (which will probably not be here if I'm realistic) because they are the only important thing to us.


Which is why we are here and not in the UK.

NZ, for all of its faults, is a great place to bring up kids.

And once again - my views on the education they are receiving are glowing..... so that is a big plus for us being here.
:)

[victoria]

Welcome Boatman & thanks for sharing your observations. Different strokes for different folks. I have found when the comparisons start & the former begins to sound better than the latter....... maybe you have reached the stage of rethinking your options. A very good post to those who might be questioning their move to NZ or those still considering it. For our part, we've moved to NZ (eyes wide open) & have found it to be home. We don't compare as there is nothing to compare it with.

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

we must walk a mile in another man's shoes before we judge him.


You gotta wait until he finds some he likes first? :laugh

[debnjohn]

[quote=victoria;163245] I have found when the comparisons start & the former begins to sound better than the latter....... maybe you have reached the stage of rethinking your options. quote]

I'd like to disagree (in the nicest possible way). Everyone is different, of course, and there are some excellent posts here. But I think Boatieman is displaying classic culture shock symptoms (that is if he's not a troll :) ):
Honeymoon period / dissapointment / despair / acceptance / integration in a cyclic fashion over perhaps 18 months/2 years?

Cheers,
John

BTW Beautiful post Carol - I wish I could work out how to dole out these karma points ..

[incredible hulse]

Welcome Boatieman. Can't say I disagree with most of your points. I guess the test is whether you think by accepting these faults that NZ offers you a better life to the one you had in the UK or potentially could have elsewhere. Jury's still out for us on that one to after nearly 2 years here.

[Moorf]

Welcome to the forum - perhaps you'd have had a better response if that hadn't have been your first post..... it kinda felt like you walked in here all guns blazing.. ;)

Hope NZ can start to feel more like home, maybe it's not for you.

[Nathan]

Overall, I'm finding the generally more limited choices to be a releif. I was overwhelmed by all the choices in my life before we moved here. Now the big choices are, 'hike up this ridge or that ridge', or 'go to this remote beach or that remote beach',... I like those kinds of choices!


What struck me is the high cost of things I enjoy ....like a good bottle of wine...compared to low cost for things I need... like health care and water. On the other hand, we've found it to be even more expensive to heat our leaky rental than we'd anticipated....ouch!!

But we've only been here a couple months.

[ellenmelon]

i think new zealand is a VERY creative place...but it depends on where you live as to how overt the creativity is, if you know what i mean :) im terribly, terribly lucky to attend the national drama school, toi whakaari (which means performing arts in maori) and am surrounded by creative types everyday. there are some wonderful writers,film makers,playwrights,artists,musicians(the list could go on for pages) working in this country and beyond. so to say new zealand has no creative spark is a LIE... :D

[Carol]

BTW Beautiful post Carol - I wish I could work out how to dole out these karma points ..


aw that's nice... thanks John

As an aside.... and please take this tongue in cheek folks...

I was just thinking about this post a minute ago ....
We are having a bbq tomorrow and I was preparing the meat etc for marinading.
I have two whopping bits of rump steak that I've trimmed up to prepare.
($14 BTW - enough for 5 of us+)

Guess who got the trimmings?

A big bowlful of rump steak trimmings go to..... my puppy.
lol
I think she would prefer it to UK Pedigree Chum or Pal anyday hahaha
:yes:D

[debnjohn]

aw that's nice... thanks John

As an aside.... and please take this tongue in cheek folks...

I was just thinking about this post a minute ago ....
We are having a bbq tomorrow and I was preparing the meat etc for marinading.
I have two whopping bits of rump steak that I've trimmed up to prepare.
($14 BTW - enough for 5 of us+)

Guess who got the trimmings?

A big bowlful of rump steak trimmings go to..... my puppy.
lol
I think she would prefer it to UK Pedigree Chum or Pal anyday hahaha
:yes:D

You're welcome.
When Debbie was in the UK I was left feeding the teenage terrors at home. Determined to do it on a budget, I discovered chuck steak on offer for $7 a kilo (yes a KILO) which was rendered tender enough for grilling after a light scoring (with a sharp knife) brief rub with 50/50 olive oil/soy sauce then 30min rest before cooking. Excellent value and very tasty!

John

[Carol]

If you do chuck steak in gravy in a slow cooker John - it is to die for.
Delicious and very very cheap.
Sorry - we are wandering off topic here....

lol

[Nick88]

After 10 years of living here I can't honestly pick holes in anything Boatieman has said. There are alot of problems here, and they are not always easy ones to fix.

I also have to agree with Carol's first post, I don't think I'll see out my days here. My kids will have more opportunities in Aus, so we will move there one day once we have gotten our business to a stage where it will be worth selling. 500 kiwis a week leave and don't come back, you have to wonder why.

Here is a very good article by a former MP
http://www.nzcpr.com/weekly105.htm

[willsken]

It’s anyone’s right to criticize what they find here in NZ. There are things here that I’ve been disappointed with. Of course there are, but luckily that doesn’t take away the love I feel for this place. It’s lived up to what I wanted from it. A slower pace of life, no rush hour traffic, no “sex sells everything”, kids in G strings at 5, etc etc. So for me NZ on the whole has done what I expected and wanted. It’s given my children a chance to stay children and have a lot more freedom than they had in the UK. I remember arriving in HB and laughing at what we called Hicks Ville – just what I wanted.

What strikes me as very strange about this post is the way it’s taken everything that could possible be thrown at NZ’s as inadequacies. If you want to have a good old moan about things that are disappointing about NZ because the affect they have on your new life the “go for it!” But what’s this all about??? Half the things on the list that have made them feel disillusioned with NZ aren’t things that have a direct effect on their lives.

Domestic violence? – you make it sound like most Kiwi men beat their wives. They don’t! It’s not something you’d ordinarily come into contact with surely, unless through a job? So why would that disappoint you? Did the fact the domestic violence was rife in the UK disillusion you? I know it didn’t enter my head as it wasn’t something that affected my life.

The schools in the UK couldn’t cope with children with special needs kids (bright/extra help needed). Sometimes you’d be lucky and find a school that could but it wasn’t the norm by any stretch of the imagination. I still think you’d have more luck finding help here. If I had the funds and my child was gifted and I was worried about them, I’d pay for private education. It’s no different to the coaching fees I pay out for my boys to have extra football lessons because they are good at it and I want them to be pushed.

I agree about the housing…. On the whole it sucks but you don’t have to live in crap house and if the Kiwis don’t see the problem, who cares? It’s not just NZ, have you ever seen the state of some of the housing people lived in, in the UK? If you want to build a warm and well insulated house, just do it! If you’re happy to pay, I don’t know many builders who’d turn you down.

Drugs and alcohol?? Again :confused: :confused: :confused: Compared to the UK it’s soooooooo tame over here. There just isn’t any comparison at all. Pick out 2 news stories that just don’t compare with what you get else where.

Recycling – if you don’t do it here we get penalized by having to pay to dump extras. In NZ I am recycling for the first time in my life.

Jap imports – old environmentally unfriendly cars? I have a Jap import and it’s 3 years old and most certainly not environmentally unfriendly. Fact is they replace their cars more often and the cars imported over here are not as described.

The comparison of NZ and UK politics…. Not even close to the sleazy crap of UK politics.

You don’t come to NZ for OMPH! You come for a slower pace of life, that’s surely clear to anyone wanting to live here???

I was talking to another POM teacher at lunchtime today and she said she has respect for people who come over here, don’t like it and go home after a year. That she had no respect for people who come here and don’t like it, but stay and moan. Nowhere is perfect and NZ is far from it. But reading this post made me think I was reading about a place with so many faults, why the hell would anyone want to come and live here?

And before the “leave him to have an opinion” people come out and criticise. Just remember, that’s all I’m expressing to.

I maybe so wrong about this post but …… living under that old bridge springs to mind.

[incredible hulse]

The schools in the UK couldn’t cope with children with special needs kids (bright/extra help needed). Sometimes you’d be lucky and find a school that could but it wasn’t the norm by any stretch of the imagination. I still think you’d have more luck finding help here.


Sorry - got to respond to this as I have a special needs kid (unfortunately not on the bright side of the scale) and have first hand knowledge of the system (as a 'user') in both NZ and the UK. We're finding the amount of funding in this area is WAY better in the UK than NZ. It's no means perfect (I'm a teacher also so see it from that side to) but the funding in NZ is minimal in comparison (just completed ORRS application with no hope of getting I fear :( ). Before you say this differs from school to school I am fully aware of this but our experience is also based on parents of other children (countrywide in both countries) with the same disabilities as my son so I hope to not be a total novice on this. As for paying for extra help that's a possibility but not always an option for people with the lower wages/increased cost of living.

Would also like to point out that NZ is in the top 3 countries (higher than UK by a long way out of memory) for drug related offences so maybe not so tame

Anyway, just my opinion

[willsken]

Sorry - got to respond to this as I have a special needs kid (unfortunately not on the bright side of the scale) and have first hand knowledge of the system (as a 'user') in both NZ and the UK. We're finding the amount of funding in this area is WAY better in the UK than NZ. It's no means perfect (I'm a teacher also so see it from that side to) but the funding in NZ is minimal in comparison (just completed ORRS application with no hope of getting I fear :( ). Before you say this differs from school to school I am fully aware of this but our experience is also based on parents of other children (countrywide in both countries) with the same disabilities as my son so I hope to not be a total novice on this. As for paying for extra help that's a possibility but not always an option for people with the lower wages/increased cost of living.

Would also like to point out that NZ is in the top 3 countries (higher than UK by a long way out of memory) for drug related offences so maybe not so tame

Anyway, just my opinion

I don't have any idea on how special needs are funded either here or the UK and I will bow to your knowledge on this. I am only commenting on how special needs are dealt with in the schools I have worked in and through people I know with children in the education system. IMO there isn't enough funding either here or the UK. I just know how many kids seemed to get lost in the UK system. I certainly haven't come across as many kids here that can't read and don't get extra help as I did in the UK.

Again I talk about what I have seen. Drugs were rife in the schools I worked in, in the UK and while I have come across the problem here it certainly doesn't cause the problems in school it did there.

The point I'm trying to make here is not that NZ has none of the problems, just if you come from the UK how does NZ appear so bad? All the problems here in NZ are no different to any other country and as has been discussed before it's the small population here that make it appear better. Surely you don't come to live here and expect NZ not to have issues?

[willsken]

Had to look at drug offense stats as I’m sad with nothing better to do. :p As usual stats seem to have a habit of skewing things. It seems to my untrained eye lack of population has a terrible effect of the outcome of reality.

Top 12 countries for drugs and their total populations.

1 Norway: 987.1 per 100,000 people (4,722,676)
#2 Switzerland: 648.4 per 100,000 people (7,508,700)
#3 New Zealand: 641.6 per 100,000 people (4,239,600)
#4 United States: 560.1 per 100,000 people (303,321,825)
#5 Belgium: 448.7 per 100,000 people (10,457,000)
#6 Thailand: 428.9 per 100,000 people (62,828,706)
#7 Sweden: 349.9 per 100,000 people (9,150,000)
#8 Germany: 297.3 per 100,000 people (82,314,900)
#9 Canada: 285.5 per 100,000 people (33,052,864)
#10 Iceland: 277.9 per 100,000 people (312,851)
#11 Finland: 259.7 per 100,000 people (5,297,300)
#12 United Kingdom: 214.3 per 100,000 people (60,587,300)
#13 Ireland: 190.2 per 100,000 people (4,301,000)

Norway and Switzerland hardly strike you as the drug capitals of the world. :exit

[swissmissdesigner]

Where does this research come from, could you please show the originaly link?
Thanks

[willsken]

Population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population


Drug info

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_dru_off-crime-drug-offences

:)

[swissmissdesigner]

thanks!

[gil]

Hi Boatieman,
What an interesting first post! Hope it's your last.


:laugh Only joking, we haven't had a provocative post in a while, so it's probably done us good.

You've certainly prompted a wide range of responses, from the "Glad to hear you tell it like you see it" to "Not the same as my experience at all".

What intrigues me most is how you can ever expect to maintain an objective view of NZ when so many of your points are laced with such intense feeling. It might help your objectivity to post all the positives you see, in addition to friendliness and fishing, with a similar passion?

If I am reading correctly, you are not working (and have no pressure to do so) which may mean your perspective is different from people who are working and therefore mixing with kiwis in a different way.

Before commenting on some of your headings, where did you come here from?
Education
Our kids all attended good (state) schools in UK and we have found schools here of a very high standard. At 6, your daughter would not even be in school in some countries! Have you looked at other schools and/or other areas? If you are not satisfied with the school she is at, there are surely other options? How about discussing her going up a year?
I must say that personally (and I know others will disagree), I find the emphasis on "pushing" the academic side of school at such a young age unneccesary and sometimes counter productive.

Housing
is different here, for sure. And so is the weather. Perhaps we've been lucky, but both our rental and the house we have bought are warm and comfy. I do agree that it is behind the UK though.

Drugs and Alcohol
Show me a place with people and there you will find drugs and alcohol in some form or another. Any of the stories you quoted could be matched and outnumbered in Cardiff where we came from.



Driving
I have posted about this before: I honestly can't see that driving here is worse than UK, France, Germany or Italy, where I have driven for many years. I always found the standard of driving in and around London to be one of the worst and least considerate I ever experienced! You could even spot the Londoners when Arsenal, West Ham etc came to Cardiff for a football trophy match, they were so bad!

ACC
Glad you can see the point of it, it's quite useful and I wonder what you would be saying if there were nothing in place?
Choice
That's what comes of being in the bottom of the South Pacific and I (along with others) think it's just fine!

Debate
Do you listen to Morning Report? There's some good interviewing there in my opinion.

Domestic Violence
Agree with Willsken, it certainly doesn't impinge on our lives. And I saw a fair bit of it in UK as I moved around the country whilst working for M&S.
Environmental Friendliness.
REcycling is far better here than it was in Cardiff

ommph
Agree with Ellenmelon!!
Where's yours? Do something about all the gripes you have.

Hope you decide what's best for you and yours,

Gil

[Jo Jo]

Had to look at drug offense stats as I’m sad with nothing better to do. :p As usual stats seem to have a habit of skewing things. It seems to my untrained eye lack of population has a terrible effect of the outcome of reality.


Yes, there is a big problem with these statistics. The Nationmaster stats come from the UN's Office on Drugs and Crime. The UN itself says that the "the main purpose of the UN survey is not to measure the exact amount of crime that exists in the world or to compare countries, but rather to provide an accounting of crime and governmental responses to it".

Highlighting mine. Source: http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/crime_cicp_surveys_3.html

The stats show crimes recorded (usually by the police) in each country, and are a function of each country's own laws on drug use and the effectiveness of its police at detecting crime. The data hasn't been normalised to take account of the strictness of each countries' drug laws, i.e. what is an offence in one country isn't in another: basically, they are not comparing like with like (although that's not the way Nationmaster presents them in my view).

[Chiba]

I don't think 9 months is long enough to judge. I've not lived in NZ, but I've lived in Japan for over 10 years. At 9 months I'd say the "holiday euphoria" has worn off, you're starting to get home sick, you're starting to have to do stuff that "regular Kiwis" do. It happens. The gaijin here in Japan have kind of evolved a 1/3/10 rule for leavers.

1 year: You've got to the stage that you're at now. The holiday's over, you think that life's very different from "back home" and you don't like it. Or you're a JET English teacher. Half of the people fit here.

3 years: You've got past the initial hurdles and started to integrate. You're *living* in the country now. Your leaving is usually a decision based on self-analysis and carefully weighted comparisons. A third of people do this.

10 years: Like a long version of three years. Typically the extra time comes from simple "easier to stay than go" reasons, or having a family, a personal desire for something like language perfection, career, money, etc. 10% of people are here.

The other few percent are lifers. Most NZ immigrants speak English so there's far less of a language barrier, so I think that in NZ a lot more people stay for longer than in Japan, and maybe the 1/3/10 thing is more 0.75/2/6.

[incredible hulse]

The point I'm trying to make here is not that NZ has none of the problems, just if you come from the UK how does NZ appear so bad? All the problems here in NZ are no different to any other country and as has been discussed before it's the small population here that make it appear better. Surely you don't come to live here and expect NZ not to have issues? Totally agree and not a surprise to me at all. Unfortunately some see NZ as a panacea and reading some views here the ramping up of NZ and down of the UK can possibly lead to this.

I've personally not seen as massive difference between drug and alcohol use in either so don't see that as a point of argument for either. I think the fact that people (I include myself in this) can bring sterling over helps them to live in a 'nicer' area sometimes to what they'd previously experienced; so some of the issues will not be encountered - doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.

[incredible hulse]

Had to look at drug offense stats as I’m sad with nothing better to do. :p As usual stats seem to have a habit of skewing things. It seems to my untrained eye lack of population has a terrible effect of the outcome of reality.

Top 12 countries for drugs and their total populations.

1 Norway: 987.1 per 100,000 people (4,722,676)
#2 Switzerland: 648.4 per 100,000 people (7,508,700)
#3 New Zealand: 641.6 per 100,000 people (4,239,600)
#4 United States: 560.1 per 100,000 people (303,321,825)
#5 Belgium: 448.7 per 100,000 people (10,457,000)
#6 Thailand: 428.9 per 100,000 people (62,828,706)
#7 Sweden: 349.9 per 100,000 people (9,150,000)
#8 Germany: 297.3 per 100,000 people (82,314,900)
#9 Canada: 285.5 per 100,000 people (33,052,864)
#10 Iceland: 277.9 per 100,000 people (312,851)
#11 Finland: 259.7 per 100,000 people (5,297,300)
#12 United Kingdom: 214.3 per 100,000 people (60,587,300)
#13 Ireland: 190.2 per 100,000 people (4,301,000)

Norway and Switzerland hardly strike you as the drug capitals of the world. :exit
Don't know anything about Norway but Switzerland doesn't surprise. Lots of cash, lots of young traders and probably a fair amount of charlie

[Nathan]

Population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population


Drug info

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_dru_off-crime-drug-offences

:)

Go to the source of this 'information' and scrutinize it.
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/world_drug_report.html
(I think this is where they came up with the list....hmmmm.)
Look at the data on consumption...prevalance of amphetimine abuse by percentage of population it is way higher in Oz and NZ than in North America or Europe, and look at the opiates, cocaine, and canibis figures.
It doesn't add up that Norway has a great abuse problem. Maybe the offense number reflects effective policing?

I'm really wary of NZ's approach to the P, or meth or whatever you want to call it, problem. There is a tremendous amout of crime associated with P.... and often violent crime.

Now, as for drug problems, my winw glass is empty!

Cheers. :cheers

Nathan

[Sam B]

Oooh - juicy thread! Haven't had one of these in a while.

Firstly - I like a debate and always enjoy reading anyone's opinions on NZ, positive and negative. I agree with the original poster about chemicals used on crops - a worry. There are more additives in food stuffs here too, we have stopped buying many foods aimed at children like juice and yoghurt because of this - and ice lollies.

I'm always puzzled by posters who are disappointed by the education, but wonder whether we have just had incredible luck. My children's new school is fantastic, as I've said many times before. My very bright daughter is stretched for the first time in her life, in all subjects, but also overcoming her shyness and delivering a speech to all her classmates in the speech-giving that was expected of all students this term, plus fantastic opportunities in music and sport (athletics at the moment). My younger daughter is in a special class at lunch time for those gifted at art, and had a lead role in the school play last term. They are both blossoming and I LOVE what the school has done for them. (youngest daughter came home today with a pile of novels lent to her from her teacher's private books).

I work for special education here, and my feelings are that it's a postcode lottery just like it was in the UK. My caseload as a speech and language therapist is 30 here, it was 190 in the UK, so I offer a MUCH better service here.

ACC - 4 years ago in the UK, our neighbour's daughter had an accident in our garden. It was the worst thing that has ever happened in our lives, ever ever ever. It wasn't anything we could have prevented, and although she was injured, she is ok now. However the subsequent legal action and blame was soul destroying and also ruined my close friendship with her mother. This would never have happened in NZ. Attitudes are just different here. We are finally feeling like we can have other children to play at our house again for the first time since this incident, although I still watch them like hawks. I LOVE ACC.

My personal experience feels like there are a lot less drugs here than in UK, and I work in very poor areas in both countries, but I am not walking over syringes on my home visits here, or watching children role play drug use here like I did in the UK in Nottingham and some parts of Cornwall.

However, NZ isn't perfect. The houses are a bit rubbish, and many of the towns are ugly. But the countryside is beautiful, the people lovely and the weather pretty good compared to the UK. I'm happy.

[Perksy]

Great on you Boatieman for being honest about your views. I don't think you should be knocked down for it. Having said that if you were to write a similar list about the things that are wrong in the UK wouldn't it be equally enlightening?

I haven't reached New Zealand yet and, as someone else has said, I am not expecting it to be alll white sands and sunshine. However I keep in mind all the things about the UK that have helped me to make the decision to go - the queues, the traffic jams, the poor customer service, the rushed, live to work lifestyle - the list goes on!

The way I see it, at least New Zealand has room to move forward and improve and I am looking forward to being part of, and helping towards that process. Personally I think the level of development in the UK has taken the heart out of the country and would rather be part of a country that still appears to have the right attitude to life and its life and family priorities intact.

I'm sure my husband will be pleased for our bank balance that I will have little choice in shoes as well!!!

[SNK05]

There are plenty more people desperately waiting to be accepted into new zealand

Me, Me, Me.....and the OH of course!!!

On a serious note, thank you Boatieman for sharing your views. I'm sure that NZ is not without it's problems and I'd like to think that I'm not so naive and disillusioned to think otherwise. I've never even visited so couldn't comment on how things are over there.

Education
I don't have children but I've heard that the schools over here are getting sooooo crammed that it's becoming more and more difficult to control and teach the kids....that can't be good!?

Housing
Some of the properties I've looked at on line do look pretty desperate but no worse, I'm sure, than the last property I lived in....cold, damp and a right royal pain to heat! I've heard good and bad from postings on here....guess it's trial and error and I'll not know for sure til we get there!!

Drugs and Alcohol
There's nowt wrong with a big ole glass of wine every now n then...lol! Joking aside, I'm with everyone else....prevelant pretty much everywhere IMHO. As with domestic violence, tho I've never, thankfully, been a victim....nor do I know anyone who has.

Driving
This place drives me mad! Boys racers, idiots who think they own the roads, traffic jams....need I say more!?

Politics just gets my goat!
I'm a faddy shopper, don't like half of what's in the shops anyway so less choice would probably be a good thing!?
I've gotten into the swing of recycling!

Guess we'll just have to suck it n see..don't know til you try and any other corny cliche you can think of!

We're just looking forward to getting there and deciding for ourselves.

Sue n Kev

[Pookeko]

Newsflash NZ isn't the land of milk and honey*! :p
*but don't get importing your own ;) :laugh

I agreed with most of what OP had to say, and then found myself agreeing with everybody's arguments against those points lol

Being in England as a Kiwi, there's loads that is good and some things that aren't so great. After a while you get used to it and you adapt. (Or conversely you don't get used to it and you go home or move on.)

In my opinion the worst things about England - in comparison to NZ - that we have found are a "yob culture" (people assaulting emergency services people!!! what the heck is the deal with that!!!), a "status"/branded goods snobbery (from what supermarket you shop at to what you wear to what car you drive, and everything in between), a "it's not my job/problem" customer disservice attitude, too few good schools which are oversubscribed and the rest of the schools are just happy if your kid turns up to school. I also don't like the NHS system (not that NZ is perfect, but I just really don't like the NHS system).

Anyway in the main those are the things I don't like about life in England, just about everything else is great. NZ isn't better it's just different. There is no perfect place.

We are returning to NZ soon for an extended period of time and some of the things we're not looking forward to are: being cold in our house, lack of choice, and a big drop in our standard of living - though I'm looking forward to a bit of an improvement in quality of life - less pollution*, fresher foods, walk around with no shoes on, close to clean beaches etc =)
*not including Chch!
Also I like old stuff. I'm not looking forward to a lack of visible history to discover!

Anyway OP, sorry to hear you're finding things to pick fault with in NZ - and yes there's loads especially if you're looking for them - maybe you are in a "downward phase" and you will feel better about things soon. 9 months isn't long and it is pretty much the end of the honeymoon period, as everyone has said.

Good luck to you anyway :)

[lockstock]

I know I was only in NZ for a few days last summer but, in view of this posting, d'you know what I noticed the most?? I can't remember seeing any Chavs. And I'm glad.

[Carol]

I can't remember seeing any Chavs. And I'm glad.


What's them then?


:confused:

[Carol]

lol
I had to Google it.....
Maybe I've been in NZ too long
:nice1

[incredible hulse]

I know I was only in NZ for a few days last summer but, in view of this posting, d'you know what I noticed the most?? I can't remember seeing any Chavs. And I'm glad. They're called hoons and unfortunately there's a fair few of them

[victoria]

What's ACC please?

[incredible hulse]

I work for special education here, and my feelings are that it's a postcode lottery just like it was in the UK. My caseload as a speech and language therapist is 30 here, it was 190 in the UK, so I offer a MUCH better service here.


Sam - I'm intrigued by this. Do you think this is down to the general lower of productivity/workload within the NZ workforce/system or a drive to provide better service ? The reason I ask is we are told there is a shortage of SLT's (not just in Kapiti but from people we know in Welly, Auckland and Nelson) and my son sees a SLT about once every 4 weeks. In the UK he saw one every week at least (similar stories from other people's children we knew in many counties in the UK).

[spudulike]

In my opinion the worst things about England - in comparison to NZ - that we have found are a "yob culture" (people assaulting emergency services people!!! what the heck is the deal with that!!!), a "status"/branded goods snobbery (from what supermarket you shop at to what you wear to what car you drive, and everything in between), a "it's not my job/problem" customer disservice attitude, too few good schools which are oversubscribed and the rest of the schools are just happy if your kid turns up to school. I also don't like the NHS system (not that NZ is perfect, but I just really don't like the NHS system).

Anyway in the main those are the things I don't like about life in England, just about everything else is great. NZ isn't better it's just different. There is no perfect place.

We are returning to NZ soon for an extended period of time and some of the things we're not looking forward to are: being cold in our house, lack of choice, and a big drop in our standard of living - though I'm looking forward to a bit of an improvement in quality of life - less pollution*, fresher foods, walk around with no shoes on, close to clean beaches etc =)
*not including Chch!
Also I like old stuff. I'm not looking forward to a lack of visible history to discover!



Excellent and well balanced post from both sides there! I agree with pretty much all your comments about the UK (except I think there are far more decent schools than people generally say - even in the bad areas). I also agree with your comments about NZ from our experience there.

We're still unsure whether we'll return to NZ 'one day' when our finances are in better order and as much as I enjoy seeing these debates I get more confused. Like you, I agree with a post then agree with all the arguments against... :laugh

Hope you enjoy going back home for a while!

L :)

[IanW99]

What's ACC please?

See About ACC (http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/index.htm) for details.

The Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) administers New Zealand’s accident compensation scheme, which provides personal injury cover for all New Zealand citizens, residents and temporary visitors to New Zealand. In return people do not have the right to sue for personal injury, other than for exemplary damages.

Ian

[willsken]

They're called hoons and unfortunately there's a fair few of them

Your right, hoons are here in droves but to me they are like the UK's boy racers. Definitely haven't come across any Chavs, thank god! :clap :clap

[Lupin]

OP sounds homesick, which is quite a rotten place to be :(

Either s/he will get past it and start to see all that NZ has to offer or s/he will head home and claim "it's not for them".

My advice would always be work through the homesickness before making the decision to leave. Having gone through all we go through to get here, we owe it to ourselves and our family to give it a good go. To me 'A Good Go' isn't a length of time but a state of mind. If you're desperately homesick you won't see NZ favourably.

[Rusty]

Your right, hoons are here in droves but to me they are like the UK's boy racers. Definitely haven't come across any Chavs, thank god! :clap :clap

Just to add to my reasons were a group of boys just chased trying to kick a hole in my fence. I guess this comes under yobs (i can think of other words), but I have not heard of this sort of 'bored, middle class moron' in NZ. THey must exist, any thoughts?

[leachio]

Yobs, drug dealers, wife beaters, generally nasty pasties they exist in NZ of course they do, they exist all over the world. NZ is far less populated than UK so they are not seen/heard as often. It will also depend where you live as to how much crime and bad behaviour you see or hear about. My hubby was a policeman in Hamilton and he used to deal with domestics at least twice a day EVERY day, he was running up and down a respectable street with his gun looking for a pair of armed robbers, and he had lots of dealings with drug users, one night whilst we were all asleep our street was hit by car thiefs and 5 of the neighbours cars were broken into (incidentally we lived in a very nice neighbourhood) also whilst I remember there were a huge amount of drink drivers 1 woman I recall only stopped because she ran into a lamp post and knocked it over :confused: I heard of more and more people fittin security alarms to their properties because the houses are less than foolproof in honesty. My point is there will be a debate on NZ v rest of the world forever but look at any country and it will have crime etc etc so my advice is try before u buy and enjoy it, life is too short ;)

[Sam B]

Incredible Hulse - there is a shortage of SLTs in this country in that some areas do not have one, so there is a very restricted service in that area. However, where there is an SLT, they generally have MUCH smaller caseloads than the UK and should be able to provide a good service. I'll pm you with more info about this.

[K&CS]

Your right, hoons are here in droves but to me they are like the UK's boy racers. Definitely haven't come across any Chavs, thank god! :clap :clap

Obviously I'd heard of the word chavs before we left the UK, but they seem to be obsessed with the word over there now - everything from wearing flip flops to hoodies is described as 'chavvy'. I think it's just another way for snobby middle class people to put down the working classes personally! Just call them a 'chav' instead of saying 'common' and no-one will bat an eyelid. Such a British thing - I do think it's much more live and let live over here - dress how you like and drive what you like. Is there any similar term in the US? - I imagine not!

[spudulike]

I have to say, I really don't think I've heard the term chav since I've been back (5 months) so perhaps it's gone out of fashion now..... But I think it was just a term given to 'council' type people who bought designer clothes. Perhaps the term isn't used so much in Devon, or I'm mixing with the wrong people :laugh

And yes, I have reread that sentence and realise it sounds very snobby - not meant that way though. :o

S :)

[willsken]

Obviously I'd heard of the word chavs before we left the UK, but they seem to be obsessed with the word over there now - everything from wearing flip flops to hoodies is described as 'chavvy'. I think it's just another way for snobby middle class people to put down the working classes personally! Just call them a 'chav' instead of saying 'common' and no-one will bat an eyelid. Such a British thing - I do think it's much more live and let live over here - dress how you like and drive what you like. Is there any similar term in the US? - I imagine not!

I have to say I knew plenty of working class people in the UK and some of them could well be described as common but my understanding of the work Chav didn't fit them at all. The Chav thing to me was the way they dressed but it was an attitude as well. Maybe my understanding of the term is slightly off.

[K&CS]

I have to say I knew plenty of working class people in the UK and some of them could well be described as common but my understanding of the work Chav didn't fit them at all. The Chav thing to me was the way they dressed but it was an attitude as well. Maybe my understanding of the term is slightly off.

You're probably right, Nicola, but I think a lot of people are just using the term now instead of 'pikey' or 'common' or as a general insult. It's used a lot on another website (UK) I frequent a lot (nothing to do with immigration) and I'm just stunned at what seems to be considered 'chavvy'. If it's true, I'd probably be the biggest chav in the world - next time I visit the UK, people will cross the road to avoid me lol!

[Sam B]

I'm defo a chav if it includes wearing flip flops! What else am I supposed to wear on my feet?

[willsken]

I'm just stunned at what seems to be considered 'chavvy'. If it's true, I'd probably be the biggest chav in the world - next time I visit the UK, people will cross the road to avoid me lol!

:laugh :laugh

[Tia Maria]

Gil wrote:

You could even spot the Londoners when Arsenal, West Ham etc came to Cardiff for a football trophy match, they were so bad!

Oi! Don't group Arsenal and west Ham supporters together, us Norf Londoners are much more sofisticated! :p

Boatieman, I think feeling as strongly as you do, its either a case of culture shock or NZ simply doesn't suit you in the same way some people are 'city people' and some people are 'countryside people'.

If you don't know which, or you have family who like it here and therefore you need to 'give it a go', I would suggest changing as many things that you can (plenty of people have to try more than one job/school/area before they settle) and try to get it so things don't feel so awful. Then make any final decisions.

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers

Tia

[flatshoes]

Education

I find they focus on different things here.
My kids were in school for one term - one did well, the other did poorly.
The one who did well loved everything about it, esp. learning Maori.
The one who didn't was more advanced than his classmates in math, but much less so in general organization.
They caught enough constant and ongoing flak about the government ruling their country of birth that it became wearying and annoying to them after awhile, and they opted to return to homeschooling, but were glad they had tried school here just for the experience. I find the atmosphere is pretty laid back, with a focus on creativity, tolerance and diversity, and the teachers very nice. My youngest (of 3) is entering kindy in 2 days so we'll see how he does. I didn't notice ABC's or anything being done there, and he has already learned those, so I can catch him up at home. I think the socialization is more important at this stage.

Housing
I had a difficult time adjusting to the way the houses were built and the indoor coldness as well. I learned to layer my clothes. They have very nice wool undies in the stores, light pretty lacy ones even. You layer those on the bottom, loose pants over top, sweater/jersey etc. Possum socks are nice.
You can find homes with woodstoves and those will make it toasty. As for the way they are built, well, that is the way it is here pretty much. I wouldn't mind that bit so much if they didn't cost so much. 8-(

Drugs and Alcohol

The widespread pot use bothers me too. The motivation and executive-functioning problems that pot induces don't seem to be viewed as problem behaviors here by most people. In general, they are very tolerant of diverse preferences, which is not all bad. In the States they would not have a transsexual politician or a woman in charge. :) Here they say "as long as you can do the job"... ;D

Driving
Yes, I find the driving somewhat, um, anyway, I avoid driving myself to whatever extent I can because I am still not comfortable with it here. I suppose they are used to their own roads, however, and it isn't as unsafe as it "looks" to outsiders possibly.

ACC
I find the social contract here is very different. People have the expectation that the State will cover their basic needs and then some. People do use the system with more of a sense that it is "there for them to use" than in the States. "That is what it is there for". In the States, a lot of people believe I think (still? maybe? maybe just my family) that you use the system only if you are on the bones of your *** and can't find a job sweeping streets. It's for the disabled and old and truly unfortunate with no other options. But that isn't the social contract here. From what people tell me. And in particular, from what Kiwis tell me who have been in the States. That is a really big difference.

Choice
As far as shoes and clothes and whatnot, I appreciated the exercise of being forced to live without it. It was actually good for me to live without a bunch of stuff being available. The level of Western consumerism can't last. Was listening to a bunch of expats (and great people btw) talking the other day about buying a bunch of purses while abroad. My mum has been giving me a purse a year for a few years now and I find other homes for them. Why would you need more than one? It's just more stuff to manage, dust, store, etc. That said, I brought about 100 boxes of books over and I wish I had time to read them and should have gotten rid of a lot of them BEFORE I left.

Debate
Maybe they are just too amiable to go for the jugular, in general.
Tropical country and all? Just a guess.

Domestic Violence
haven't noticed what you have.
maybe financial problems in certain socioeconomic strata?

environmental Friendliness.
a doctor from SA that I spoke to who had practiced in a number of countries said that he had never seen so many rare cancers, had various theories as to why this might be but could have been the spraying by farmers.
Existing polluters - I imagine their cars will die eventually.
I find they are good about recycling here.
The choice of *healthy* foods in the stores is excellent.

Any comments ????
a lot of stuff you do get used to - there are things that are extra-nice here that make up for what you miss from home.
some things you never get used to.
and it depends on the person. :)

[CjChris]

Ok, so how's this for culture shock?

red shoes or boots worn with confidence with any outfit:eek:

ice cream in one hand and a glass of wine in the other at the ballet intermission at the opera house--yes, you read that right, at the ballet!
:eek:

...and every passenger deboarding the bus saying, "Thanks, driver!" :p

...and best of all, what's up with getting three months' of meds at a time for 7 whole dollars? :confused:

It's just so different here....wow...I just want to click my heels together and tell my little dog, "There's no place like New Zealand..there's no place like New Zealand..."

[lockstock]

Sam - a Chav wouldn't be seen dead in flip-flops! And yes, apart form the Burberry-based 'uniform' there is the attitude.

[Lupin]

Ok, so how's this for culture shock?



ice cream in one hand and a glass of wine in the other at the ballet intermission at the opera house--yes, you read that right, at the ballet!


It's just so different here....wow...I just want to click my heels together and tell my little dog, "There's no place like New Zealand..there's no place like New Zealand..."

At the NZSO in Wellington last weekend my dh and I were floored to see peeps drinking beer during the concert and that it was fine to do so :eek: At an NZSO concert ..... it's a world away folks :laugh

[Andy-Dee]

My understanding of a chav isn't anything to do with working class - its to do with having lots of money and wearing as much of it as possible. e.g. designer labels, bling jewelery, dog with designer clothers, fake bag etc etc. Its about thinking 'stuff' is the most important thing in the world, basically as shallow as a puddle.

Paris Hilton is the Queen of Chav - in my opinion and trust me she isn't working class - not sure she works at all.

[flatshoes]

My understanding of a chav isn't anything to do with working class - its to do with having lots of money and wearing as much of it as possible. e.g. designer labels, bling jewelery, dog with designer clothers, fake bag etc etc. Its about thinking 'stuff' is the most important thing in the world, basically as shallow as a puddle.
Paris Hilton is the Queen of Chav - in my opinion and trust me she isn't working class - not sure she works at all.

That is a hard term to get a grip on, really.
They're materialistic but also not very thoughtful, seemingly?
I agree that there are "class overtones" though.
It sounds like "chaff" though, and indeed from what I have seen of chavs they're pretty insubstantial people...light enough to just blow away.:D

[incredible hulse]

Your right, hoons are here in droves but to me they are like the UK's boy racers. Definitely haven't come across any Chavs, thank god! :clap :clap

Yeh probably right. What do we call the little toerags here with the caps and hoodies then ? :o

[flatshoes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youth_subcultures

:D

[debnjohn]

Yeh probably right. What do we call the little toerags here with the caps and hoodies then ? :o

Sounds like our 17 & 19 year-olds :) Call them what you like, chances are they won't take any notice of an older generation - this is the Y-generation (as in 'Y should I ?')

[Rusty]

That is a hard term to get a grip on, really.
They're materialistic but also not very thoughtful, seemingly?
I agree that there are "class overtones" though.
It sounds like "chaff" though, and indeed from what I have seen of chavs they're pretty insubstantial people...light enough to just blow away.:D

NOt sure about the class overtones, seems more to come in larger towns and a bit of money to wear. EG - went to a party in Broxbourne (thinks itself posh if you know it) and most people there I would have said Chav. - lots of gold a brand new clothes in a play barn. I'm looking forward to NZ where (in general) people do not show off about money.
I guess everyone has a different view.