[bmi]

Hello,

I have read many threads about people explaining why they are leaving NZ. Most of them came from UK or other well developed countries because they are the vast majority of the immigrants.

IMHO many seem to behave a little bit like spoiled kids who expect all they had in their home country plus a lot more in NZ for far less. Always comparing between the two countries, big reliance on the local expat community and homies.... Please don't be offended, this is just a feeling after reading the posts where many expose a lot of their personal life.

Coming from France but having lived years abroad in "less developed" countries, I'm less concerned by small shopping centers, not a doctor as a neighbor or bad roads so I would like to read from people coming from other countries why they think about leaving NZ.

Regards

bmi

[swissmissdesigner]

If I ever move to NZ I will because I marry somebody from there.
However we are thinking to stay in the States for a while because of better economic situation.

[wilson182]

Hello,


IMHO many seem to behave a little bit like spoiled kids who expect all they had in their home country plus a lot more in NZ for far less. Always comparing between the two countries, big reliance on the local expat community and homies.... Please don't be offended, this is just a feeling after reading the posts where many expose a lot of their personal life.

Regards

bmi

Hmmm, I wonder how you can make a comment like that then ask people not to be offended :confused:

[Moorf]

:yes Probably not the most popular of observations but I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP... I thought it was an interesting point to make and obviously something that this person has picked up from reading this forum which means it must be evidenced here somewhere....

[willsken]

:yes Probably not the most popular of observations but I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP... I thought it was an interesting point to make and obviously something that this person has picked up from reading this forum which means it must be evidenced here somewhere....

I'd say in his situation, we must sound like that on here at times..... but god I still miss that Bisto!! :roll :exit

[stu70]

Hello,

I have read many threads about people explaining why they are leaving NZ. Most of them came from UK or other well developed countries because they are the vast majority of the immigrants.

IMHO many seem to behave a little bit like spoiled kids who expect all they had in their home country plus a lot more in NZ for far less. Always comparing between the two countries, big reliance on the local expat community and homies.... Please don't be offended, this is just a feeling after reading the posts where many expose a lot of their personal life.

Coming from France but having lived years abroad in "less developed" countries, I'm less concerned by small shopping centers, not a doctor as a neighbor or bad roads so I would like to read from people coming from other countries why they think about leaving NZ.

Regards

bmi

You raise good points. On that topic, look at the stats here (http://www.emigratenz.org/leaving-New-Zealand.html) and you will notice the bulk of the folks leaving are not the "spoiled kids" from UK but from countries that would be best described as "less developed". So what makes one leave? Do not know. I do not think it is a simple matter of people expecting too much from NZ. It being so far away from everywhere which makes it super hard to come and go especially with family, belongings, etc., those who make that decision can not be summarily dismissed as "spoiled". Cheers

[Carol]

well this is going to be an interesting discussion....
:laugh



I have to say here that I'm not planning to leave. And I AM British.
So I don't really fit into your question at all...sorry.....

But - if I could leave (and I can't just now) I might.

Not for a more materialistic life..... although to be 100% honest - I DO miss that - and from my visits home I know I could slip back into it without ANY problem at all.....:nice1

The reason I would still go back after all this time is that I still have a huge gaping hole in my life here because my immediate family are simply so far away.
I have many wonderful friends who have helped to fill that gap for me....one of them (from this forum) has become a "surrogate sister"! *mwah to Debs*

But I still WANT to be in driving distance of mum and dad and my younger brother who is carrying the responsibility of our parents for both of us. A fact I find difficult to cope with despite having discussed it with him on many occasions.
If they could come here - there would be no issue. But for many reasons they can't.
It is an awful scenario for me - because there is just no answer......... I won't leave because my kids' lives are here now.

Would that be a common denominator in returning immigrants I wonder?

[bmi]

You raise good points. On that topic, look at the stats here (http://www.emigratenz.org/leaving-New-Zealand.html) and you will notice the bulk of the folks leaving are not the "spoiled kids" from UK but from countries that would be best described as "less developed". So what makes one leave? Do not know. I do not think it is a simple matter of people expecting too much from NZ. It being so far away from everywhere which makes it super hard to come and go especially with family, belongings, etc., those who make that decision can not be summarily dismissed as "spoiled". Cheers

In fact these numbers are percentage so in absolute numbers the majority of leaving people still originated from Europe (hmm not to say UK ;)) or US. Nevertheless I would like to read from these people from Asia, South America or South Africa or wherever why they are leaving NZ.

[incredible hulse]

Spoiled .... from a frenchman. Quality ;)

[wilson182]

:yes Probably not the most popular of observations but I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP... I thought it was an interesting point to make and obviously something that this person has picked up from reading this forum which means it must be evidenced here somewhere....


Fair enough, I think I was just shocked by the "spoiled kids" reference. :yes

[Moorf]

Hmm, if we're talking non-materialistic stuff then I guess I'll be super-spoiled if/when my parents and bro move here!

[Moorf]

Fair enough, I think I was just shocked by the "spoiled kids" reference. :yes

Yep - no beating around le bush!

[gil]

I agree with Moorf, and take more exception to Incredible Hulse's post!

[bmi]

Fair enough, I think I was just shocked by the "spoiled kids" reference. :yes
My English being as low as my political correctness, I let you find a more subtle wording... is demanding fine?

@incredible hulse: No need to start another rant against the French. We are so used of them that we are turning them into a marketing tool to attract tourists eager to observe the cheese eaters in situ.:laugh

[Chiba]

I think there are as many reasons why emigrants leave NZ as there are emigrants. The only way to get close to an answer would be to independently survey new migrants, then periodically poll them on various issues, particularly if they elect to leave. I've yet to see anything like that.

[Sam B]

Spoiled? SPOILED? MOI? Just because we're British - how VERY dare you!!! .......Sound of me lying on the floor, kicking and screaming, spitting and hissing in anger.

Ha ha.

No really, some people who leave come across that way a bit I guess, but many more just sound desperately homesick, missing family etc. Still, this doesn't answer your original question, but I'm not sure there will be anyone who will, as most people who post are in the category that you don't want to hear from.

[Tia Maria]

You might need to start another thread for non-UK posters! :laugh

I think people either emigrate as they are looking to improve their lives or are looking for adventure.

For those coming from more developed countries to NZ, I think improvement often means an 'increase in quality of life'. Unfortunately, unlike an increase in wages, this is a very hard thing to define and quantify. You may think living by the beach will be enough to compensate for lower wages, but it may not. You may think the better climate might make up for poorer housing than you are use to, but it may not.

So for many, despite much research, they may find they simply got it wrong and that happiness lies elsewhere. Truly knowing what makes you happy is a skill very few people have.

I suspect this is less of an issue for those from less developed countries, as they are unlikely to have lower wages to deal with and the housing may not appear poorer. However, they are more likely to have cultural and language issues to deal with, which might make it harder to settle.

I assume from your initial post, despite coming from Europe, you identify yourself more with the latter, and maybe that is the reason you asked the question?

Cheers

Tia

[bmi]

....
I assume from your initial post, despite coming from Europe, you identify yourself more with the latter, and maybe that is the reason you asked the question?

Cheers

Tia

In between. I try to understand what will be the reasons not to settle happily in NZ. Since job, finance, family, homesickness are not our concern I try to find out what will be a stopper. Schools and health system seem fine, climate is temperate (ski in winter, beach in summer), security is as good as in Europe, cultural differences don't bother us and we love great outdoors.

Perhaps in fact a too quiet life will be the big issue after few years. Ok here I'm playing the spoiled kid.:wah

[Chiba]

For me, what may do it is cultural richness. I'm not saying that NZ has no culture; that's nonsense, it seems to have a rich and vibrant culture in so many ways. What I'm saying is that as a European you grow up surrounded by layer upon layer of history. So much so, it kind of becomes part of you, and you to some degree become part of it. There's a connectedness. Once you leave it behind and go to live somewhere like NZ, Canada, Australia - even the US - you strain that link. In NZ I think you just have to accept that it's a relatively new culture that's still evolving. Even if you think you don't care about history, it still affects you because it's kind of the rich broth that you're drinking every day.

For myself, I plan to use nature as a foundation. Through immersing myself in New Zealand's natural environment, there are so many ways in which I can build links to the country. For my kids too, I want to do this. Who knows, we're not there yet, but staying indoors watching Sky and complaining about the heating - that seems like a sure fire recipe for disaster.

[incredible hulse]

@incredible hulse: No need to start another rant against the French. We are so used of them that we are turning them into a marketing tool to attract tourists eager to observe the cheese eaters in situ.:laugh
No worries mate, good to see you have a sense of humour. And no rant here; thought you were playing a blinder on the irony line (veto and all that). Certainly if you've seen where I was born into spoilt wouldn't come to mind, but I think the Brits have always been one's to call it as they see it and guess that can lead to the whingeing poms label.

Anyway, won't take any more of your thread as this isn't answering any of your questions. Good luck

[gil]

My English being as low as my political correctness, I let you find a more subtle wording... is demanding fine?

@incredible hulse: No need to start another rant against the French. We are so used of them that we are turning them into a marketing tool to attract tourists eager to observe the cheese eaters in situ.:laugh


No worries mate, good to see you have a sense of humour. And no rant here; thought you were playing a blinder on the irony line (veto and all that). Certainly if you've seen where I was born into spoilt wouldn't come to mind, but I think the Brits have always been one's to call it as they see it and guess that can lead to the whingeing poms label.

Anyway, won't take any more of your thread as this isn't answering any of your questions. Good luck

Chaps, what style and common sense, hats off!

Gil

[bmi]

No worries mate, good to see you have a sense of humour. And no rant here; thought you were playing a blinder on the irony line (veto and all that). Certainly if you've seen where I was born into spoilt wouldn't come to mind, but I think the Brits have always been one's to call it as they see it and guess that can lead to the whingeing poms label.

Anyway, won't take any more of your thread as this isn't answering any of your questions. Good luck

As sense of humor, don't forget our national emblem is the coq (rooster?), the only animal able to sing every morning on a heap of manure, so we have to live with.

This forum is really useful and I knew that my little sentence about spoiled kids will have some effect. It was intended to extend culturally the debate (it's for you Chiba) and to go a little bit further that the classic poms-brits ping pong exchange seen many times.

Cheers

[Singel]

OH and I are non-UK people. The reasons for us leaving NZ basically are :

We have itchy feets :D
We are DINKs and love travelling. It hit home after we returned from Europe last year, we realised that we have to spend so much time and monies to travel from NZ to anywhere in the world.

We are spoilt and materialistic LOL
The wages here are low and we find that we could not retire here comfortably - want to achieve our dream (own quarter acre of land, build our house with the latest gadgets, own a boat, drive a 4X4 with loud turbo engine :laugh )
Hopefully we could come back to NZ with the extra dosh one fine day.

:roll :uhoh

[bob_the_engineer]

I don’t know I liked the way this thread was going before. Spoilt kids sounded like a good description to me :clap

I see a lot of UK people who just cant cope with being away from family, I’ve also seen blatant attacks on people who say things like “they don’t miss their family” or even “god I’m well rid of em”.

I’ve seen independently minded people branded as either “heartless” or “their not from a close family”

Reading some of the threads on here does make me wonder how some people got here in the first place. NZIS did a thorough job of checking qualifications and work experience, but when I was interviewed, I certainly felt like they were asking the right questions about things like “how will you cope with being at a distance from your family”,,,,, “what will you do if you cant find work”

I sometimes think that there is a silent majority of UK people who live in NZ, love living in NZ, accept (and enjoy) this wonderful country.

Let me be frank.

Compared to the UK I have,,,,,,,,,,,

A better house,
A better car,
A fantastic job,
More spare cash
More free time,
Less stress,
More friends,
Better food,
Better weather,
A safer environment
Finally I love living in a place where people have a little respect for one another (unless they’re in a car :D )


I can’t be the only one!

I’m sorry, if you miss your family and don’t feel you can cope,,, well that’s sad (I mean that sincerely) you’ve made a mistake, it’s probably cost you a lot of time and money, but you were game to give it a go. If that’s you, then farewell, and I wish you every happiness in your next endeavour.

As for those who come to NZ and criticise, spend their time as angry little people who think that everything should be done to fit in with them, well just go ay. I’d just like to say one more thing, this is a wonderful country, full of colourful places and people, its also the place I call home, don’t disrespect my home, if you don’t like it go, and don’t look for something to blame your mistake on.


Bob

[bob_the_engineer]

OH and I are non-UK people. The reasons for us leaving NZ basically are :

We have itchy feets :D
We are DINKs and love travelling. It hit home after we returned from Europe last year, we realised that we have to spend so much time and monies to travel from NZ to anywhere in the world.

We are spoilt and materialistic LOL
The wages here are low and we find that we could not retire here comfortably - want to achieve our dream (own quarter acre of land, build our house with the latest gadgets, own a boat, drive a 4X4 with loud turbo engine :laugh )
Hopefully we could come back to NZ with the extra dosh one fine day.

:roll :uhoh

They you go, that’s what I call a graceful and honest exit

Bob

[bob_the_engineer]

I have to add, I read the thread "not everything in the garden is rosy" by boatieman.

If you have never been here you may just actually believe some of this utter nonsense.


Sorry got to go, obviously I have to find time to drink all the money I didn’t spend on gambling, I have to get home and beat the hell out of the wife for not sharing the P out fairly between the children.

Its not fair you see, the schools are so bad that the kids cant read the weighing scales, the wife is ripping them of for their fair share of the P, and she’s off out with her gang instead of cooking up another batch….

Oooo I wish I were back in the environmentally friendly London, where we build proper houses and have no crime, drugs, violence and great education. (YEA I’ve been there too)

Bob

[Carol]

as a European you grow up surrounded by layer upon layer of history. So much so, it kind of becomes part of you, and you to some degree become part of it. There's a connectedness. Once you leave it behind and go to live somewhere like NZ, Canada, Australia - even the US - you strain that link. In NZ I think you just have to accept that it's a relatively new culture that's still evolving. Even if you think you don't care about history, it still affects you because it's kind of the rich broth that you're drinking every day.



Oh how true this is...


And how I came to realise just how much I took for granted.
:wah


Oh well.

[bmi]

I have to add, I read the thread "not everything in the garden is rosy" by boatieman.

If you have never been here you may just actually believe some of this utter nonsense.


Sorry got to go, obviously I have to find time to drink all the money I didn’t spend on gambling, I have to get home and beat the hell out of the wife for not sharing the P out fairly between the children.

Its not fair you see, the schools are so bad that the kids cant read the weighing scales, the wife is ripping them of for their fair share of the P, and she’s off out with her gang instead of cooking up another batch….

Oooo I wish I were back in the environmentally friendly London, where we build proper houses and have no crime, drugs, violence and great education. (YEA I’ve been there too)

Bob

Calm down mate you are hurting yourself. People having lived in harsh places or countries can understand your feelings.

Whining is also a national sport in France. We have even some periodical tournaments where people gather in the streets and shout angrily against some badly paid blokes in uniform, we call that strikes.

[Carol]

when I was interviewed, I certainly felt like they were asking the right questions about things like “how will you cope with being at a distance from your family”,,,,, “what will you do if you cant find work”



Bob

Interviewed?

I never was! Too long ago I suppose.....

Probably a good thing they do that now then
To weed the likes of me out before I get here.

[bob_the_engineer]

Interviewed?

I never was! Too long ago I suppose.....

Probably a good thing they do that now then
To weed the likes of me out before I get here.

Come on Carol, you can’t seriously think that was written with anyone like you in mind!


Bob

[Carol]

Come on Carol, you can’t seriously think that was written with anyone like you in mind!


Bob


:D
nah.....

Just joking:cheers

But honestly - I wasn't interviewed...... Didn't have the internet then either.
Back in the good old days.
lol

I thought i had died and gone down under the first time I set foot in Countdown on the first day we were here.
I thought it was so bad!

lol

[bob_the_engineer]

Calm down mate you are hurting yourself. People having lived in harsh places or countries can understand your feelings.

Whining is also a national sport in France. We have even some periodical tournaments where people gather in the streets and shout angrily against some badly paid blokes in uniform, we call that strikes.

I know bmi, but it doesn’t make it any less annoying :D

Well I’ve calmed down and I’m off to snooze, have a good night.

Bob

[dharder]

It's all so terribly subjective, though, isn't it. When I had the citizenship ceremony to get British nationality, a retired army colonel (no, you really couldn't make him up) was handing over the certificates. He said a word or two to everyone, people from all over the world. He said things like 'Oh Sierry Leone, I've been there a lot', or 'ahh Singapore, had a really good time there'. To the New Zealand guy he said 'beautiful spot of the world' or some such thing.

The American and me, he asked 'And why do you want British nationality??!!'

It was odd to think that he thought it absolutely natural for people from all those places to want to come and be British, except for the German and the American.

I guess people move for all sorts of reasons, and stay and leave for all sorts of reasons, too.

Daniela

[Debbie P.]

It's interesting that you've had so few replies from non-European/US people. I wonder if that's because we're more inclined to say what we feel? Do other nationalities not want to say anything because they're too ashamed to admit that they're finding it hard-going?

There were some South Africans on here who have moved back, largely for family reasons and simply missing their country at a deep emotional level. I think that's one thing that might drive me back - feeling sentimental about the natural beauty of the UK (yes, it does exist in places and is all the more beautiful for the over-developed c**p that surrounds it!).

But also many people go back due to simply struggling on the lower wages in NZ, and I have the greatest sympathy for them. Maybe non-UK/European/US people cope better with less money??

[clg]

Not thinking about leaving NZ any time soon but thought I would chime in as not being from the UK. The biggest reasons I would move somewhere else at this stage would probably be for either job reasons or just because I wanted to live somewhere else from a variety standpoint. I used to be in a management role in a university and they just don't have much work like that around Wellington. I am working for government now which I have mixed feelings about. If I want to go back to a university I would probably need to move but I would be looking in NZ first or possibly OZ. The only way I could see moving back to the US would be if housing there falls further, which it will probably do, and I get a job I want at one particular university there in an area I really love but which is very expensive. If that scenario came up I would be incredibly tempted but I would plan on moving back to NZ at some stage.

[Anita & Marco]

So here I go - another immigrant from a non-UK country. I am not on the way out of NZ, but I want to be realistic about the reasons why I came and the reasons why I would leave, if I would. Spent about the last two years in NZ now - most of it in Wellington.
I will write down in Bob's comment with the risk that you call me moaning or whatever:


Compared to the UK I have,,,,,,,,,,,

A better house, that's great, but an exception, unless you had a really bad house back in the UK. we spent much more money in NZ on a house that is smaller and has less quality than the one we left (but we knew this beforehand and accepted it, but I will never call it better, also when I am nearly used to it now)
A better car, I definitely have a better car, but since I hardly use it (same like before) it is not an issue for me
A fantastic job, have been in a few jobs now (around 9) but the working atmosphere here is far less than I was used to, but then again, I come from a pretty good place and knew it would be less
More spare cash hardly any money to spend here in NZ - where in Europe we could travel and go wherever we liked and even save money.
More free time, far less free time - in stead of working 30 hours a week, I have to work 40 hours a week and have more commuting time (had only 5 minutes commuting time back in Europe)
Less stress, more stress because of unsatisfactory job situation and less money
More friends, know a lot of people and quite a few friends
Better food, food is similar - COFFEE is definitely better!!
Better weather, weather is different, not 4 seasons in a row, but 4 seasons on one day, which is great for a change
A safer environment absolutely safer, when you know where to go




So, in my opinion it all boils down to what you compare things with. What kind of situation are you coming from, where do you 'end' up in NZ and what do you value in life. There is no such better/worse scenario, because it is very dependent on everyone's individual situation.

My reasons to leave NZ if I would do so, would be the job and housing market. The rest is perfectly fine to me and I am working on these two issues.

Regards
Anita

[Carol]

There is no such better/worse scenario, because it is very dependent on everyone's individual situation.

Regards
Anita

I agree
And the thing is - this can vary so much it is no level of indication of "life" in NZ.
So all you can do is....tell it like it is - and let folks decide for themselves.

It's been a long debate on here - the whole "positive v negative" postings.
The important thing to remember is - it's all just people's experiences.
You never know how it is going to be for YOU until you actually get here and live the life.

[ourquest]

Well I'm not totally qualified to comment, but I'm not from the UK, so that's a start. I'm also not yet in New Zealand....BUT,

There is a saying "Wherever you go, there you are.

There are countless people in the world who do not appreciate what they have. Before their move, after there move, and probably after they have returned to home number one. Some of them will be ex NZ immigrants, and this might shed light on why it didn't work out for them.

I will endeavour to follow my own advice...

[ncalfamilyguy]

i would certainly like to see an american perspective on this.... but i suppose you are already gone?

[Super_BQ]

Instead of comparing materialistic things like 'a better house, car, etc,' why not focus on issues that money CAN NOT buy. People need to define what a better life is? When you take away the materialistic things, you'll find the most important things that apply have nothing to do with money (and a major reason why many don't choose NZ as home for the long run).

Let's briefly look at some examples where $ can't buy? "The Culture and Views of the Country"

A touchy subject but I would have to say to any new migrant that culture shock is probably the biggest factor. No matter where you are, at home watching TV, out at a niteclub or bar, or even talking to co-workers, you simply can not get away with how people think. Their views of asian migrants? Shootings in the street? Level of health care? etc. But let me get more specific. There is no doubt that in the past decade, NZ has had a huge influx of overseas migrants from all races (from China, UK, India, you name!). By looking at the media, it's quite clear that there is a bit of ressentment from local residents pointing many of NZ's problems are aimed at overseas migrants (whether they fleece WINZ or commit crimes in the drug trade, murder, you name it) but the real issue is what kind of conclusion do local NZ residents have and is it comparable to the conclusions that people other developed nations have? I would be hard pressed to believe that all developed nations have the same view.

We've witness NZ gov't quickly passing laws that restrict foreigners from investing in key NZ assets. (a la Canada Pension Plan's stake in Auckland Intl. Airport). Certainly the local Manukau district council has been against the CPP bid. Acceptable for Australian firms to own many of NZ's assets but not ok for other foreign nations to do the same? So who represents the actions of the NZ gov't? Better yet, is this the same treatment NZ gets when they go overseas to invest?

I have to say there is no pride in a country (especially one that has a small population) to make claims they were the "1st to do this and that" (ie. 1st women to vote, 1st to climb Mt. Everest, etc) when for most part, the very few greats can never make up for all the sub-par ideas. A problem occurs in NZ and the NZ gov't devises a solution all to their own because overseas ideas aren't good enough. Call it "we just want to be different" or re-inventing the wheel? A small country simply doesn't have the resources to go experimenting what big developed nations have already discovered. Let's see:

Building Industry: There was nothing wrong with an apprentice system for training tradesmen here in NZ. Other developed nations have it and still stand behind it - now we're stuck with leaky houses and schools.

Medical Care: New cancer fighting drugs unavailable for NZ breast cancer sufferers as NZ ministry of health insists it's not proven enough. (not enough funding or these drugs are not good enough for NZ standards?) Again, same drug is free in countries like Canada/Aus/UK.

Education: Bye bye Cambridge education system, hello NZIS standard of check +/- with / without excellence. The dumbing down of society? If you ask me, in the real world performance is based on % (ABCs and F) less than 50% you fail. If I have less than 1.5mm of tire (tyre) tread on my car, I fail the WOF.

The worse part about migrating to another country is the lack of easy access to this information. You would think it's all the same in 1 country to another. Australia has GST, so does NZ. Free health care there, same in NZ. Mountains seen in Lord of the Rings. They all look good just like the cover of a book. But when migrants start reading the inside of the book, they soon discover differences. Really if the majority of differences were considerable, then you'd see less brain drain and more skilled key migrants staying in NZ.

BQ

[incredible hulse]

Medical Care: New cancer fighting drugs unavailable for NZ breast cancer sufferers as NZ ministry of health insists it's not proven enough. (not enough funding or these drugs are not good enough for NZ standards?) Again, same drug is free in countries like Canada/Aus/UK.

BQ
Agree, but it's not the Ministry of Health that makes this decision; it's Pharmac and despite them sharing the same 'boss' they actually often have opposing viewpoints

[Nick88]

I'm off, too. But not necessarily for the usual reasons that most give.

I run a business, a very successful business here in NZ, but here it is a niche business. Overseas it would be a multimillion dollar business in a crowded industry, but in NZ the industry (ornamental horticulture) is pretty small and not big enough to support the number of players that would be found abroad. This has worked out nicely for the nursery I run, cos we have almost no competition.

Now I have itchy feet and want to try something else, but all of the ideas I have need a much bigger market to be viable. Consequently I have to go where the customers are.....Australia.

All of the other 'lifestyle' (boy, I hate that word) stuff is fine here. The weather is OK, the school my kids attend is good, and we can get everything we need at the shops.

[boatieman]

Hi this is boatieman's wife
Yes at last seeing beyond. Most people compare the immediate things, what you get in the shops, TV, clothes, food, cars need I go on. But you really have to look beyond these initial comparisons look at the 'hidden agenda' of all the major areas, health, education, gov't policies, transport system or should I say what transport system, the list is endless. I read this post as my husband said I might find it interesting, and I did as I have replied.
We did a lot of research prior to coming and we could not find more information, for example all I read was 'the education system is good' but now I know why I couldn't find out more because most of it is dull, uninspiring, unimaginative, uncreative, and teaches an extremely narrow curriculum completely separate from the rest of the world. I spoke to a lady last week who said she only heard of the word continents when she was 12 yr old, she said it was so enlightening she has remembered it as being a turning point in her education. There is more to life than Kiwiana.
Living in NZ one expects to find a similar or 'same' playing field as other developed countries, but it is not. For example UK, it is by no means perfect and there are loads of problems, but and it is a big but I think UK is actually trying to deal with these problems rather than sweep them under the carpet.
Cheers

[granger]

Apologies to non uk people this thread was aimed at but in terms of education I'm not a fan of the new NCEA exams here. As recently as last year, however, the OECD tested 15 years olds in member countries in Maths, literacy and science. New Zealand students performed well and outscored those from the UK. I tend to think this is in spite of the new system though, which I'd like to see changed.

[sweetpea]

Living in NZ one expects to find a similar or 'same' playing field as other developed countries, but it is not. For example UK, it is by no means perfect and there are loads of problems, but and it is a big but I think UK is actually trying to deal with these problems rather than sweep them under the carpet.

I totally agree. "She'll be right" is a wry chorus among my some of my expat friends, said with a grimace and an eyeroll.

[willsken]

We did a lot of research prior to coming and we could not find more information, for example all I read was 'the education system is good' but now I know why I couldn't find out more because most of it is dull, uninspiring, unimaginative, uncreative, and teaches an extremely narrow curriculum completely separate from the rest of the world. I spoke to a lady last week who said she only heard of the word continents when she was 12 yr old, she said it was so enlightening she has remembered it as being a turning point in her education. There is more to life than Kiwiana.


As a teacher and a mother over here I disagree. Both my children are a lot happier in school here than they were in the UK. Certainly in my subject, computing, they learn the same things I taught in the UK. In fact, I had to brush up on my programming skills as I'd not taught this in the UK at secondary level. I have 2 14year old boys here at the moment and I asked them if they did geography and learned about other countries in school and they confirmed that they do.

[Super_BQ]

One of the very basic laws in marketing (like the laws of physics) is that "peoples wants and needs are unlimited".

Perhaps we need to be content with what we already have and not worry how things are much better elsewhere.

A lot of emphasis goes towards couples with children. All want the best for their kids, best opportunity, best education, best health care, you name it - best of everything! But they forget that what NZ already has is really pretty good overall compared to what exists in other developed nations. It may sound that i'm contradicting my previous post but hear me out. I find that it's the finer details that annoy a lot of these migrants and though it may be sub-par elsewhere, they find that moving is the better answer.

Look at the families who come from developing nations - those that come genuinely poor to NZ and see how well they strive. I'll describe a recent visit to a local organic chicken farm where I met a family from Ethiopia. They immigrated to NZ as refugees some 7 years ago. Our converstaion was very thoughtful and exciting with many questions and answers on our experience living NZ. I could tell they were very happy here. Who wouldn't be coming from their background? But what I couldn't stop thinking was, here is a family that came to NZ with nothing and today, I see them driving a car and their children having a decent education with far more opportunities than they would ever realise. Things that they wouldn't dream of if they stayed in Ethiopia (they said it themself) so you could say they weren't looking to migrate to another country no matter how better it was abroad.

This is the classic example I wished the NZ gov't would focus more on. It's all easy to say we have a brain drain problem and that unskilled migrants don't prove enough benefit to the country. At the same time i'm sure there are countless of such migrants cheating the dole and lining up for every free gov't social handout. Also the NZ gov't seems to portray a reactive approach instead of a pro-active approach. But there's more to my meaning.

What I saw in this family was something I rare saw in around NZ. I'm talking about PATRIOTISM If you have a nation where people are truly patriotic with their country, then there is no reason to question about migration or the brain drain. The issue of jealousy (and crime to an extent) is out the door when everyone from every race believes in their country. So in that family's case, I could see they truly love NZ. The only thing missing from their car was the NZ flag - something we often see in the US.

In contex, the group of migrants that want to leave NZ are simply those that want to meet their "wants and needs". Though, I would like to say we still have to use the "Common Sense" approach that despite coming to NZ in the 1st place, I think their expectations are well off - especially if they come from a large developed nation. We are fools to believe a country like NZ can offer as good environment than say Australia. Instead, we should be looking at what trade-offs are we going to accept while living in NZ. I can assure you that these trade-offs would still provide a far better environment than those from developing nations (if you take away the home sickness aspect).

What I disagree with (and going by the common sense rule), is NZ's attitude at laying the blame "how fast they come to a conclusion". When bad ideas start happening here, quite often the blame is pointed at another country - without doing concise, non-impartial research into the issue. But when a spectacular ideas happen abroad, it doesn't arrive to NZ or if it does, it's not well embraced - as there will always be someone locally that will try to 'out-gun' that idea.

I hope I didn't trigger any hard feelings...

BQ

[Smiler]

I spoke to a lady last week who said she only heard of the word continents when she was 12 yr old, she said it was so enlightening she has remembered it as being a turning point in her education. There is more to life than Kiwiana.


Hi Boatiemans wife

Welcome to the forum. :cheers

I have very little experience of NZ schools except through children of close friends and a couple of friends who are treachers.

But from my limited exposure, the focus of schools here IMHO seems to on the creative allround education as opposed to the extremely dull, uninspiring, unimaginative, uncreative narrow curriculum taught in my sons, niece and nephews schools in the UK.

I so wish I had the chance to come to NZ when he was younger and given him the oportunity at being an all rounder rather than being trodden on throughout his school life for having a documented learning disability and subsequently losing confidence because of that.

Our business here has clients all round the world, however we are regularly woken at 3 and 4 am by our US customers calling because they don't realise NZ is in a different time zone. :confused: We have the time in our NZ office right next to our phone number on our website!

One lady last month took the biscuit... not only did she not realise this when she called at 4.10 am but when I called her back at a decent hour, she apologised and and told me she'd had to go and look NZ up on a map. She was confused because she thought NZ was somewhere in the North Atlantic. Her comment that she must have been away for the world geography lesson left me speechless, when I realised that she really, really wasn't joking.

[willsken]

For example UK, it is by no means perfect and there are loads of problems, but and it is a big but I think UK is actually trying to deal with these problems rather than sweep them under the carpet.
Cheers

Do you think so? Must just have been where I lived then. I saw absolutely no evidence of the government trying to fix anything. Seemed to me they were just looking for ways to get more of my hard earned money off me. Although I suppose they did try to fix the prison overcrowding problem by releasing loads of prisoners early, should thank them for trying really, shouldn't we. ;)

[Carol]

all I read was 'the education system is good' but now I know why I couldn't find out more because most of it is dull, uninspiring, unimaginative, uncreative, and teaches an extremely narrow curriculum completely separate from the rest of the world. There is more to life than Kiwiana.



I'm sorry - but I have to comment on this.

Reading past posts - you have a "gifted child".
She is at an extreme end of the academic achievement range of children of her age. So of COURSE she needs to be stimulated differently. George Parkin is a great choice for her.

How can you therefore make such a sweeping statement as that above.
It is both insulting and wrong to the majority of the teaching profession in NZ who go out of their way to do the exact opposite of what you have described.

Incidentally - as a primary school teacher trained in England - I can honestly say spending the last 11 years teaching here in NZ - I have learnt more each year than I learnt in either my teacher training or during the total 6 years teaching in general in the UK.

I visited Tahati School a few years ago now - as part of my professional development that year. I found it innovative and inspiring. The attitudes and aspirations of the kids we met was outstanding.
That speaks many more volumes to me personally....

And I have to agree with Deborah (above).
When I was ready to leave the UK to emigrate here - I had to explain to my students at the time - exactly where NZ was. They had no idea. Or indeed that it was anywhere near ...um...Australia?

[veronica]

hiya think nick 88 is the one nearest to the mark, perhaps the question should be more a case of WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE GOING WHEN THEY LEAVE. that might answer the question of why they are leaving. I suspect a lot are going over to australia as well as returning home. As to why very few non UK/Europe people are not answering the post maybe its cos they aren't the sort to be on the forum anyway.

[boatieman]

Dear Carol and Debra and anyone else who has read my post

Just to keep the record straight, I too for my sins am a qualified teacher and have been so since 1980, and have taught in a number of schools in UK especially London.
Tahati school, a few years ago was good due to funding and head, however, that head was particularly eager to make a good job of it as he used it as a stepping stone to further his career. I visited Tahati last year, and was not impressed at all. I have spoken to parents who think it is great, and teachers from other schools who have said it is not as it should be!
My child although is classified as gifted here, in the UK she fitted in just like everybody else. She was however, in the top few in her class, although was one of the youngest, she was totally stimulated and stretched. The teachers that she had were all able to engage all the students regardless of abilities.
However, I think you have missed the point, look at the underlying and hidden agendas that happens within education system as a whole. Once you have been involved with it for a time you no longer see it, and everything appears as it should be. This is the scary part. Knowing where countries are is only the tip of the iceberg.
As I am sure you will appreciate teaching a class who are all of a similar level is much easier than having to cope with a class of extremes. There seems to be an attitude of dumbing down. For example why do schools do all the lessons in the same order every day at exactly the same time. I think this is called monotony. Where is the creativity and inspiration in that. Why is this, you may ask, is it because the government do not want to encourage enquiring minds to develop, which might go onto to demand more answers from them as politicians.
My original email is only a small portion of what happened. But since when is reading books by NZ Transport when you are 6 yrs old stimulating, captivating, inspiring and creative.
This email is not insulting anyone, but this is what I experienced and what actually happened. Plus there are a number of other parents I speak to on a regular basis all Kiwis and they have found similar experiences in a range of schools and age groups, this is not just the BOP, but Rotorua, Wellington, Christchurch, Auckland.

[Carol]

We can only comment on our own experiences.
Mine personally, along with many other parents I know too - also far reaching around the country - is the exact opposite of yours.

That is not to say this is a perfect system here.
There is no such thing.
But I believe the curriculum offers more in the way of inquiry learning and real value thinking skills here - than anything I ever saw in the UK.
Including focussing a whole year of a child's education on getting good grades for the SCHOOl in their SATS.
Where is the innovation in that?

"Once you have been involved with it for a time you no longer see it, and everything appears as it should be."

Yes ..... but teaching and learning for me here has been a rich experience of constant evolving, change and development.
Again - my experiences. And that many other teachers I know in many other schools.

The biggest let down for me here in NZ has been the shift from primary school - where every child counted AND their needs were all met by creative teachers - to secondary school. Where again, it becomes a numbers game of statistics of pass rates.

[Super_BQ]

While a bit off topic from the original post, I haven't seen any replies that define what proper education should be or, what parents expect out of a good education system.

Although i'm not a teacher, I think nobody has any idea on the outcomes of their children. I've seen honor role students in my class end up as underachievers partying hard and dropping out of university, while at the same time, i've seen C grade friends end up earning their PhD. Anotherwords, you can provide the best education system in the world, send them to private school, etc. and at the end, it don't mean a thing to the outcomes of their career.

We need to establish some key goals that students get while going to school. Most parents say they want them to be 'successful'. What the hell does that mean!!!???!? For 1 student that could be working in a circus. For asian parents that may be a doctor or lawyer or accountant. Do you think of it as an investment? Pool in $100K for their education to be a doctor and at the end they say they don't like it?

We can talk about NZCE in elementary and highschool but I think that's way off from reality. Really, students don't start realising where they are until they start university. 150 years ago it was perfectly acceptable for not knowing how to read. Over 100 years ago you were lucky most people finished elementary school. 50 years ago a highschool graduate could easily get a secure job and earn enough $ to provide for the home and raise family. Starting to see the picture?

Let me ask, what level of education do NZ universities base on? By what standards do they follow? 3 year BCom vs. 4 year degree (in Australia) of the same degree? I know for a fact that a lot of overseas university professors teaching here are not happy with the quality of students enrolling in. My cousin was a TA and when they changed to the NZCE system, he found the majority of freshemen could not even write a proper sentence or paragraph. There was no consistency as each year they didn't know how good the students were. When I attended university back in Canada, the professor took marks off for poor grammar and I think they should be doing that here as professors don't have time to correct grammar.

Perhaps people think this is not right to grade all students on 1 measuring stick. Well, stop right there and look at the real world. Everything is based on a measuring stick. If I wanted to add an addition to the side of my house here in NZ, I would need some drawings to submit to the city council for a permit. My uncle told me there was a time that you could be approved on housing plans submitted on toilet paper. Today, they want nicely drawn CAD prints from the engineers. A lot of older trademens hate it but hey! People have got to learn that the bar will always rise. That's the standard measuring stick today and that's the real world - none of this "Kiwi Ingenuity" fix it with blu-tack and some chicken wire.

But with the NZCE, we're screwing with the basic essential skills. Maths and English should be the tops. Not a student that can equally score as well by doing all those extra sporting activities to earn points to meet some 'excellency level'. Most universities wouldn't know any different if that excellency came from a student high on sporting activities (or extra work in areas to "make up for it" vs. academic math, science, & english.

BQ

[JandM]

Super BQ saidlook at the real world. Everything is based on a measuring stick.
Yes, this is right. Certainly in the UK, the pendulum in schools has swung too far from absolute standards being required. I did a Master's degree in the early 90s - even then, the professors were holding their heads over the basic literacy (lack of) attainment among the new intake of undergraduates, who all had so-called good A-Levels. This was such a problem that they set up an inter-departmental remedial reading/writing course. At the point when the new students ought to have been concentrating on the discipline they'd gone to university to master, they were having to backtrack to try to gain basic skills. Tutors were torn between pushing for the standard they KNEW their courses ought to have, and taking note of the reality of the students facing them. Truly, many of those people were not yet ready for a university course (and might never be), but no-one would dare say so, or the politicians would cut their funding, because of the big push for more graduates.

A generation earlier, when I was at university in France, an English girl put up her hand in a lecture and asked the professor the meaning of a word he'd used. He told her, first, that no-one interrupts a lecture - it is there for everyone to listen to and gain the information. Second, that she must not bother other people because of her deficiencies. He said, 'Skills are not for others to teach you, mademoiselle, but for YOU to learn.' I bet this sounds incredibly harsh these days. But there's a logic to it. She did, after all, know she was signing up for a course which would be delivered not in her own language.

[batgirl1001]

My hubby is friends with a girl who got her resident permit and lived and worked in Wellington for 2 years after which she upped and left to return back to Singapore. Got her indefinate visa but she found that she could not worked in Wellington/NZ for long because of various reasons. She is considering if she wants to give up her NZ PR.

She found Wellington to be an expensive city to work and live in. She is a high-flyer in Singapore, having obtained a government scholarship and was an assistant director of the policy division in the education ministry. She studies overseas for 4 years in wellington earning an honours degree.

She resigned that job in Singapore and took a position as a junior educational policymaker in the nz ministry. Hated her job because she felt she was far more experienced than her superiors, could not get promoted no matter how hard she worked or how well she peform on review because promotions were based on seniority and not performance. She felt the bureaucracy was too slow and not creative enough to accept changes. Furthermore she felt her salary was too small in light of her living expenses in Wellington and had to use up some of her savings to afford a decent living there.

In the end, I guess it was the frustration of what she could not attain job-wise that affected her decision to leave NZ. Having returned to Singapore, she was immediately rehired into the education ministry and is now a VP with a prestigious school, back on the ladder of promotion with a very good pay to boot.

[Leccy-Lee]

I'd say in his situation, we must sound like that on here at times..... but god I still miss that Bisto!! :roll :exit

Can buy UK imported Bisto in shop round the corner, tell me what you want (chicken, beef or onion) and i send some up Nic. I owe you anyhow :nice1

[Potato]

She is considering if she wants to give up her NZ PR.


OOC, why would she do that? She's got her IRRV, so essentially she has residency for life. Unless there are pressures on Singaporeans to not hold foreign residencies (I know they don't allow dual nationality).

[Singel]

OH had been working for MNC (very comfortable with one income) when we were in Holland. In NZ, we need 2 incomes to afford a mortgage and live comfortable here. Hubby is not happy with the low wages in a small company. There are no MNCs here in his field of work :(

Back to Europe, our life is great :nice1, we could afford a mortgage and live very comfortably on OH's income only (I'm a lady of leisure :raebanana) ........... http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14546


OOC, why would she do that? She's got her IRRV, so essentially she has residency for life. Unless there are pressures on Singaporeans to not hold foreign residencies (I know they don't allow dual nationality).
It is OK for a Singaporean to hold an IRRV without giving up the Singapore citizenship.
I just got my NZ citizenship and I have to give up my Singapore citizenship.

[marcia]

What I saw in this family was something I rare saw in around NZ. I'm talking about PATRIOTISM If you have a nation where people are truly patriotic with their country, then there is no reason to question about migration or the brain drain. The issue of jealousy (and crime to an extent) is out the door when everyone from every race believes in their country. So in that family's case, I could see they truly love NZ. The only thing missing from their car was the NZ flag - something we often see in the US.


BQ

Loving this debate, very interesting comments being made and all relevant, as we can all only comment on our own experiences, which will all vary greatly, non of which are right or wrong!

I just wanted to comment on being patriotic, and flag flying bit

The New Zealanders i seem meet are patriotic, they all get behind their sportsmen and women, and I see lots of New Zealand and silver fern flags flying. Now this was a real bug bear of mine in the Uk and still is, the fact that people are asked to remove the St georges flag from flag poles in the village where i used to live, (which I have heard happens in other ares too, it isn't an isolated case) and are not allowed to fly the Union Jack, for fear of upsetting people from other nationalites now living in GREAT BRITAIN - this to me is madness, how can people be offended by someone flying a flag which is a symbol of the country they have chosen to live in. i wouldn't dream of knocking on my neighbours door if they were flying the New Zealand flag or the silver fern flag and asking them to remove it! I feel far more Patriotic towards New Zealand than the Uk which has lost its identity entirely due to polictal correctness!

The education debate has been done several times here and again it all boils down to what your own expectations are, i just want my kids to be happy, well rounded, aware of the world around them, confident, capable individuals. For me the Uk system wasn't allowing them this, too busy collecting government statistics, following a rigid curriculum and pushing to pass SATS tests. Here my kids are learning to express themselves as individuals, be much more self aware, and confident. They are allowed to express and follow through ideas of their own - example my eldest is running a football club at lunchtime once a week for the younger kids, in the Uk it wouldn't have been encouraged, but more importantly he wouldn't have have the self confidence to do it. For or family the NZ education system works far better than Uk one did.

Back to the original question - Ok I'm from the Uk - but for me the only reason I'd go back is family. Things are different here, but we accept that and hope to have more family time here with a much slower pace of life, more chilled ' yeah she'll be right' attitude!

[wiki]

We're going back (to the UK, but ignore that) because we can't physically tow NZ any closer to Europe.

As for the patriotism comment: I lived out of NZ for 10 years and am still incredibly patriotic to it. You don't have to live in a place to express your patriotism and national feeling.

I would be terribly offended if anyone suggested my pride in NZ as a nation had changed just because I chose to live somewhere else.

[batgirl1001]

I think she is considering seriously to give up IRV but have not made the move simply because she is weighing out her options. Perhaps she wants to live in NZ but earn the big bucks in Singapore.

Plus she view her career in terms of relativity. What gains/loss she incurred when she gave up a promising job in Singapore for a low-paying, demoted job in NZ with no prospects. I guess in the end when you are alone and didn't gain any satisfaction from your job/life in NZ, you are more likely to up and leave.

As for me, we (my family of 3) are moving to NZ next year and we intend to make the most of it. Of course, we want to live and work and be able to afford some good things in life but we don't have high expections.

Furthermore, we know that if necessary when we find it hard to survive on the pay in NZ then we would probably head back to Singapore, earn the money we need to afford the good life in NZ. But I don't think we will ever abandon the residency since we worked so hard to get it.

[incredible hulse]

The kiwis are a patriotic bunch and it's good to see especially when it spreads to a desire to buy local, etc.

Not sure what's gone with the UK and 'Britishness'. Sums it up when people support NZ against England despite being in the country for 5 mins ! Personally could never find myself describing myself as anything but English/British and proud of it.