[Diny]

As you may or may not know, PB and I have 2 boys - Henry 7 and Fergus 9 - so one of the big issues with us is education.

Don't know about anybody else but I personally would be very interested to hear some first hand opinions from those of you who have come to NZ with school age children - and how you have found the education system.

Some of my concerns centre around the classroom sizes. I know (much like the UK) that this will depend largely on the location of the school, and of course whether the school is state or private. At the moment the boys are in a small rural school here in the UK. I'm just wondering whether going from a school with 68 pupils to a school with 300+ will have a positive or negative effect on them - any comments?

Looking at another thread earlier, I notice that Jimmy quotes that NZ schools 'outdid' all UK schools last year :? . I'm not arguing with the statistics but I would question the 'yardstick'.

From my very limited experience and from what I've been told, I understand the classroom work in NZ is - to put it simply - alot easier than the work here in the UK.

I'm not knocking the education system in NZ - how can I? I'm not even there yet. However, I can honestly say that I've had more people who are there comment to me that the NZ education system was a huge shock to them.

When we stayed with my sister in law last April (she has 3 kids - twins who are 10 and eldest who is 12) - the kids were taking it it turns one night to read a page each from a story book. My 2 boys just read the words from the page like they knew them off by heart (which they didn't) - the 2 younger cousins stumbled and fumbled and kept showing (fairly simple) words to their mum for help. Didn't think much about it at the time.

As my boys had to miss some time from school here in the UK when we went to NZ, I took some of their school books with us - just a couple of reading books and abit of maths etc. I was listening to Henry read one afternoon at PB's parents house. They had the lady from next door over for 'afternoon tea'. This lady (a retired teacher) just couldn't believe how fluent his reading was and how confident he was. She commented on how proud I must be to have such a gifted child.

It may be worthwhile pointing out at this stage that Henry had alot of 'teething' problems when he first started school and certainly wasn't the brightest in his class. Thankfully with alot of joint effort between the school and ourselves, he's up there with the rest of them now. As well as the obvious full time education, both of the boys also have a private tutor who comes to our house. She is a very old fashioned teacher who has an amazing effect on them - they are now both doing work which is set out for children much older than them.

Reading back I know this post sounds like I've already made my mind up that they are going to take a drop in standards of education when we get to NZ. Please understand that this is not the case. I'm only 'armed' with what I have experienced and what I've been told. I'm in dire need of some of your first hand findings. I think to keep a balance on things we should discuss state education.

We fully intent to 'employ' another private tutor for the boys when we get to NZ - are there any data bases or websites which can give us a list of private tutors available or shall we just enquire locally?

Looking forward to reading your opinions.

Diny

[leslie]

there is so much more to education than 'maths'. all the research points to the fact that despite all uk ballyhoo about excellence students are short changed in every way.

my daughter - gifted student - was to sit early maths gcse's with her yr 9 class. they were doing highre-level maths than the class due to sit them and wildly excited by it all, worked like demons, masses of extra work. in comes new head who decrees he is not prepared to pay for their tests until they are the right age. let it be said i am not the only parent threatening the head with expulsion. the girls at the school are excellent, enthusiastic footbll players, the boys lousy, and guess who isn't allowed to form a proper team? you cannot win in this system and i cannot wait till my children are out of it. when your child finishes with school in nz they will be employable just about anywhere which means they have an excellent chance at having a good life - to me that says it all. british education ... yeah.

[Diny]

Thanks guys - so far I've read 2 very informative posts. Jimmy - can you give me some details on how I can get my hands on the reports regarding the NZ kids outperforming the UK kids in everything. I think it would be a very interesting report to read and would go a long way to answering some of my questions.

Leslie - you must be spitting feathers about your daughters situation - I'd be on the war path big time !! You state that your daughter was doing masses of extra work which is very good. Obviously the teaching standards were excellent to help your daugher along the way .... then comes in the plonker with his red tape to ruin it all for them. Very frustrating !!!!

I'd just like to clarify part of my original question. 'At this stage' I'm not particularly interested in the political red tape and the way the school finances etc are handled, I want to know about actual classroom work. Of course you are right when you say that there's more to school than maths - there has to be for any school to maintain the interest of both the pupils and the staff. Maybe it's the more relaxed approach to teaching which is leading me to have worries about the standards. I also find it odd that junior shcools tend not to have a uniform. Might I add however, although I find it odd - I think it's great and the boys are simply blown away by the idea :nice1


Quote Leslie:

when your child finishes with school in nz they will be employable just about anywhere which means they have an excellent chance at having a good life

Good point here -I think how employable a 'young adult' will be when they leave school has alot to do with not only their education but their personality too. I don't think that an NZ education would make them 'more employable'. This is a tricky one - but if I was an employer trying to fill a vacancy and it was shortlisted to a UK educated applicant and an NZ educated applicant, both of similar personalities, experience and age. But the UK person had a couple more exam passes than their NZ counterpart, I think I'd opt for the one with the more qualifications. I certainly wouldn't think 'ohh NZ education - this person has a much better chance of a good life'.

Anyway, once again I digress.

Diny

[veronica]

I can't answer the question on comparative education but I can say that bright happy kids will normally do well whereever they are and the most important learning is not done at school but at home. One thing I have noticed with the kids at primary school here is that they all seem happier with school than the UK kids. The playgrounds in the ones I have been to are great, better than the parks in the UK, and encourage the kids in physical coordination and strength. All these things add up to a better primary education.

[leslie]

diny
unfortunately test results measure the ability to write tests and not the ability to fulfill lifes requirements. while marks do have their contribution, when your teenage children begin sending out applications the first thing they will find is that the person who is accepted is the one with the best skills - unfortunately very few people sit exams throughout their careers. skills are represented as character, interests and disciplined achievements, esp. those acquired voluntarily. its about what you DO off paper. for example, if your child applies to usa ivy league uni's marks mean less that the extras.
my daughter is 'gifted' but one of the reasons i didn't put her in gifted programs was an experience i had long before she was born. the first uni i went to had more phd's mowing the lawns than teaching (the school had its own golf-course - a lot of lawn mowing going on). its good to KNOW but its what you DO with it that counts. giftedness is not a measure of success and education researchers have been expounding it to a largely disinterested world for 2 decades. there are no truly easy answers here, but note americans and eurupeans run most successful uk companies. brits? well, barings anyone?
incidently, the maths teacher is australian and has giftedness training. the school has lost 3 of its best (australian) teachers since the arrival of the new head.

[Diny]

Quote Veronica:

I can't answer the question on comparative education but I can say that bright happy kids will normally do well whereever they are and the most important learning is not done at school but at home.

Yes - I couldn't agree more on this point.

Diny

[jocalla]

Can only give my first impression of the school in general,not education wise, as they were only there for 1 and half weeks.
I was concerned at first with class sizes as the kids came from a small village school (only 30 kids in the whole school) , to my relief both kids didn't bat an eyelid.
I know its silly but another thing that I really noticed was that the kids looked like kids, running around with no shoes in the playground, not dressed to impressed, just kids being kids.
Joanne

[veronica]

Another thing I forgot to say is that Kerry our youngest graduated 18 months ago with a 2:1 BSC and can't get a job, as can't many of her fellow students as they need experience, some of them have managed to get a job for NO pay for 6 months just to get that experience. But if she had choosen to be a plumber/trades person she would have stacks of work for good money. One of her peers worked at Tescos during his UNi years earning a reasonable wage. on leaving Uni the only job he could get relevant to his degree paid him about £3 less an hour than his check out job. formal education is not the be all and end all and I wish there was an exam system that tested the kids for aptitude, attitude, depth of character and IQ. instead of the present system that mainly tests the kids memorys.

[markkellaway]

Hi All,

Can't remember where I got the info as it was a long time ago. I've seen more than one report that says the NZ education system places less focus on formal results based teaching but that fids end up leaving school not only with comparable knowledge but also with the ability to face real world problems.

I firmly believe that in the UK we churn out kids with fantastic ability in passing exams but give them a real world problem and, in general, they are stuffed. This is first hand experience as well, our daughter did fantastically at school, we were so proud of her. She got all A's and A*'s at GCSE and got 4 A's at A level, unfortunately "common" sense wasn't on the curriculum. She's now 23 and starting to get it but it would have been nice if she was more grounded earlier. :yes

You have to question the results of a system where kids are, according to the statistics, so much more intelligent than they were 20 years ago when you just know that simply isn't the case.

Hope that wasn't too controversial, I'm just looking forward to Andrew being allowed to be a kid again.

Mark. :P

[jo b]

Diny

Although I haven't experienced NZ school as I am in the same position as you would would like to share my thoughts.

Bethany (9) & Kurt (6) go to a small private school with 68 pupils. Beth's class is mixed with years 5 & 6 and there is 8 in total (4 from each year). She has to do work for ages above her as she is year 5 to accomodate for the older children but she does it again for re-inforcement for year 6.

She had over 4 hours homework at the weekend. She is off with a very heavy cold and can hardly speak and the school has sent home loads of work for her even though she is ill.

Now it is my choice to send them to that school although I think they do too much homework but what I will have had instilled in them is a positive attitude towards learning. They both love school and are both very advanced in reading and spelling than their peers who live in the same street.

I want my kids to go to school with more kids - why? they will learn how to interact with a wider range of personalities than they are exposed to at their current school. Beth knows each individual in her class above and below which is a good thing but if she went to senior school over here she would be in for a BIG shock I'm sure.

As for UK education in the paper yesterday it reported one examining body was giving out grade B in GCSE Maths for 17%. :eek The English education system will eventually get a reputaion that the results won't be worth anything written on paper.

Oh I never wore a uniform in Junior school either it was unheard of in Wigan in the 70's. I couldn't wait to start senior school just so I could wear a uniform :nice1

I think my kids will flourish in a more relaxed environment and can't wait as for extra teaching we do that with ours.

My thoughts Diny I hope they may have help your fears and concerns.

Jo

[Diny]

This is becoming abit of a 'back and forth' discussion on my behalf, but once again Veronica I agree with you. Education isn't the be all and end all .... an aptitude test is a wonderful idea. As in the case of the plumbers you mention .... getting a good job straight after apprenticeship, good money (heck they charge you 40 quid just to answer your phone call !!!) - alot of them start up on their own and are thier own boss working hours to suit. Good on 'em I say :nice1

The sad truth is that what qualifications a person has on paper doesn't count for a huge part of what that individual is actually like - as you say - it just proves they have a good memory. Once an applicant is in an interview situation then they have the chance to 'shine'. This is their moment to show their future employer who,and what, they really are. However, unless you have that certificate showing your qualifications you're not going to get as far as the interview in the first place.

This is what I'm really wanting to know. I understand that NZ schools 'may' instill a higher standard of 'life skills' in our kids (this remains to be seen), they 'may' leave school with a better physical awareness due to the amount of sports, they 'may' be happier and possess a sunnier disposition, their entire attitude towards everything 'may' be better than pupils from the UK and other countries (although personally I feel there's a slight degree of the dreaded rose tinted spec syndrome creeping in here). With all that put aside, stripping away all the personality aspects, all the red tape, the financial running of the schools, the personalities and happiness levels of the kids ......... what about the classroom work? I know it's not the be all and end all .... but I'm really interested to know. For example, to date in literacy my 7 year old has studied conjunctions, compound words, diminutives, contractions and suffixes etc. Fergus who has just turned 9 has covered mnemonics, active & passive verbs, word origins, unstressed vowels, complex sentences etc - can I expect the same level of literacy work in an NZ school?

Diny

[Jo and Andy]

From what I have heard about the NZ education is that children may be about 1 year behind ours in primary, but at the end of their education they are way beyond our children.

In sweden kids do not start school until 7, which british people think is terribly late, but they children do better educatiotionally than ours, perhaps we push our kids to early.

My daugher is doing brilliantly in her reading and understanding, history geog, and all those sorts of things, but I think schools here forget physical education or at least it is put on the back burner (I know things are changing), but this is part of education as well, team work, planning, and fitness. I know NZ schools seem a lot better on this, they also seem to concentrate more on maths and english rather than languages (read somewhere).

What I want for my daughter is a good school, where she will be able to learn, not too distracted by the kids who don't want to learn, but also where she can be a kid.

[leslie]

when we lived in cambridge the village school was across the road. was tiny (40 students?). still, had an outdoor swimming pool with a beautiful view of the area, tennis court, basketball court, fantastic adventure playground, large trampoline and grassy play areas. in off hours we swam in the pool and used the tennis courts/ playground etc. always meant to sleep out one night with 3 yr old on tramp under stars and regret never got around to it thanks to ridiculous visions of machete wielding cannibals joining in.

they didn't have a uniform but thanks be noone though it mattered.

[mechidna]

I've also heard somewhere that US and UK children will be working a year or two behind their current level acadamically. Judging from the instant messages she gets, I am inclined to believe it. She has a friend who is 9 yrs old. This child (I'm fond of her) can barely spell and has the hardest time forming full sentences. So if Briana will be in 7th grade next year, she would be working at a 6th grade level. That's about the only thing she's liking about nz right now. She's become quite stubborn lately. Don't know where she got that...

m

and it's barely past 6am. I think that should allow for spelling errors. :roll:

[Jo and Andy]

So you believe that NZ education is much better, and our kids will have to catch up.

Well we can always help there.

[mechidna]

Jo and Andy,

From what I understand and I know everyone will correct me if i'm wrong, but the primary years in New Zealand seem to be behind schools in the US and UK (don't know about any other countries) but the colleges are supposed to be excellent.

Again, this is only what I've been told. I'm not there yet, so I don't have any first hand experience.

[Diny]

Quote:

Again, this is only what I've been told. I'm not there yet, so I don't have any first hand experience

Exactly ... I've heard so much but until we get there and experience it first hand I for one need to stop fretting (which I tend to do).

Had a nice chat with Jo B this afternoon and she helped settle my 'concerns'.

From my point of view - I want my boys to have the best opportunities (as I'm certain everybody does for their own kids) so when I hear negative comments I tend to hit the panic button.

I'm sure the NZ education system - like everywhere else - will have good and bad points. Thanks for all your comments. :nice1

Diny

[leslie]

so they sent loads of homework to a sick child. bout sums it up, doesn't it?

[mechidna]

Ok, now I'm curious about something, but it's more for the UK people. Is it odd to receive an abundance of homework (not when you're sick) as a daily routine? My daughter always has homework and I remember having quite a bit of it growing up myself. I know there will always be homework, but what is considered a lot over there?

M

[Terry&Sophie]

Hi Diny,

I don't have any kids so I can't really comment. I just wondered though whether you could try contacting some NZ schools and asking? Maybe they have a sort of prospectus they could send you or a website that would explain what sort of work is covered in the different school years for comparison?

No idea how easy that would be, or whether you've already tried... but it might be worth a shot.

Good luck, by the sounds of it your boys are keen to learn so they should do well wherever they are.

Sophie

[ruthyroo]

Hope I'm not too late to contribute. Diny - there is a poster on the 'other board' I'm sure you know - guy called Slim who is a teacher down in Taranaki / New Plymouth? There was a thread on the board that discussed academic side of education in NZ, maybe a search would find it.

Message from my OH (teacher) is much as outlined above. Schools are more relaxed, the kids tend to be more confident, outgoing and will speak their mind - partly down to the lack of class distinctions in NZ I think. The downside of this, from the teachers p.o.v. is that there is not the automatic respect for the teacher that still exists in parts of the UK, so discipline is more of a problem - even 'nice' kids will think nothing of answering back to a teacher. Also, I think the kiwi laid-back attitude to life can slip into a fairly low level of motivation to learn. Slim also pointed out that basically, in the NZ education system, it's very much up to the individual child to make the effort. The actual curriculum etc seems to be at a pretty similar standard to the UK in terms of teaching materials etc at secondary anyway. As always, and said above, the bright, well supported child can do well. The problem with NZ is that there are less safety nets in place to catch the ones that don't fit into this category - schools cannot provide the same level of pastoral care for kids. eg in OH school of 800 in the UK there were 8 guidance staff. In his NZ school of about 800 pupils, there is one guidance staff and she is shared with another 3 school in the area...

My main concern about the education system here is the lack of resources for schools, compared to the UK, and the reluctance of central government to get involved. Financially schools are kept on a very tight rein - government funding is extremely basic. Any sports / computer / arts / and other facilities must be fundraised for - and as always schools with a relatively wealthy catchment area will win out...guess it must be the scottish socialist blood that starts to boil at that point!

[veronica]

Really appreciate the common sense of that last post. Our two girls are both bright but dyslexic so when Trudie hit a 'bad' teacher in her infant class we took a decision to teach them at home and in our case it was the best thing we could have done for them. Really the school is only as good as the Head teacher, and even then its a year by year thing depending on the teacher they have, but providing they don't get two bad teachers in a row most of them cope provided you stay interested in what is going on and encourage them.

[leslie]

ruthyroo - we used to live in westminster. at the beginning of this school year a 15 year old pupil was aprehended for raping his teacher on the first day. my daughters school had 2 police guards posted at the gates by the middle of her 1st year - and that was in holland park. as far as i can see respect here is non-existant in the state system and often that is deserved. also note that much like anywhere the good, respectful teachers are admired and treated respectfully. and they are usually australian!

its great nz has bravely legislated gifted needs provision. they only work with it in uk if they can get extra funding for other things, otherwise they dont want to know.

[Babette & Andy]

Diny - thank you so much for starting this thread, and for all your comments and thoughts. As always you know which questions to ask :nice1 It's definately started to prey on my mind how Lianne (6 in May) will get on, she's currently in Yr 1 and doing really well. Also currently at a small rural school (70pupils in total).

Paula - found your posting really informative. Thanks for taking the time to go into such detail, I think I can speak for a number of us when I say this is exactly the kind of info that is of great use to us all. Hope Hannah and Jack have a good year ahead.

I totally agree that (unfortunately) a positive school experience, on all levels, is for a large part in the hands of the teachers that our children encounter. Without doubt many of us will have first hand experiences of when we went to primary/secondary schools ourselves. I remember clearly how bad my yr4 teacher was, leaving 2 years worth of work for my yr5 teacher - who was superb (I still remember some of the songs he taught us, poems he wrote in my 'memory book', and is general teaching style - he was really into Bob Dylan :mrgreen: )

Anyway, here's hoping we all find the best scholing solutions in the areas we end up in for our children. And let them learn to be kids again at the same time :nice1

Babette

[Diny]

Absolutely brilliant folks !!!!!!!!!!! This is the EXACT info I've been wanting - you just don't know how happy I'm feeling - just like a weight has been lifted.

Sophie: We have recently changed our choice of location for when we arrive in NZ. I had done some research into the school in the Manawatu which we had lined up for the boys. I must admit - my findings didn't really give me much cause to relax. Can't really put my finger on what I wasn't happy with - just that the whole package seemed far too 'non-academic' (for the want of a better description). However, I've found out which schools will be available for us in our new location, but up to now the only information I have is what appears on their individual web sites - although from that limited knowledge I already feel alot happier about the standard of the whole 'package'. I have written off to a couple of the schools but haven't heard anything back as yet - obviously they are still on their summer break. Thanks for your advice.

Ruthy & Paula

I salute you :nice1 Wonderful postings which seem to be written without any bias at all. You've really put my mind at rest to a great extent. As you both suggest - it's got alot to do with the teachers attitudes. As I mentioned earlier, Fergus & Henry have a private tutor here in the UK, we intend to carry on with this arrangement (different tutor obviously :laugh ) when we get to NZ. Hopefully this will help with any teething problems. I think that because the teaching methods in NZ tend to be alot more 'laid back' than here in the UK, I've been translating that as 'not academic enough'. After reading your posting I can see that I've probably been misleading myself with that assumption. I guess it's like any school anywhere on the planet ....... it's largely a combined effort between pupil/teacher/parents which gets results. If one of those key components lacks interest then the whole mechanism won't function properly. Please remind me to buy you a very large glass of wine for putting my mind at such ease.

Leslie - Quote:
as far as i can see respect here is non-existant in the state system and often that is deserved. also note that much like anywhere the good, respectful teachers are admired and treated respectfully. and they are usually australian!

I can understand - after reading your experiences - how disillusioned you are with the education your children are receiving. However, I can't help thinking you are tarring every school with the same brush. The school my boys go to is state run and I can assure you they are 2 of the most respectful, good mannered children you could wish to meet. Yes alot of this has been instilled in them by PB and myself - but a large degree is down to the school. I have done alot of work in their school as I sometimes go in and take a class for cookery or craft etc. I have always found the level of manners, respect and good behaviour remarkable. The staff at our school are all British but to state that good, respectful and admired teachers are all usually Australian :? I presume you're just talking about your daughters school. Going by the standard of intellect of the majority of Aussies I've come into contact with I think I'd throw my hands up in dispair if they were responsible for educating my boys. But now I'm being flippant and trying to end on a light note. Like I have said, I can understand how your experiences have forged your opinions, but please believe me when I say that it's not the same the whole country over. I really do wish you a speedy passage to NZ so you can get away from a situation which is obviously causing you great distress. Please feel free to PM me at any time so we can exchange "I just wanna get there" stories.

Diny

[Annierobrigado]

hi folks

i agree with everyone, that a teacher has a profound influence on a child's education, so if your kid has an excellent teacher, then he will excel. one question though: even if there are bad teachers, isnt there a prescribed curriculum that all teachers should follow? at least the basics would be covered. but i agree, if the basics are already covered, then the only thing that could stretch the child to his full potential would be a motivational teacher. i think that's why they put on the occupational shortage list (i think it's immediate priority) the "Montessori" teacher. it's a method of teaching in the primary years that tries to "think outside the box" to put it shortly. so hopefully more montessori teachers would migrate to new zealand and perhaps contribute to improving the educational system.

but parents should still continue to involve themselves with their children's education, so if they feel the kids are stagnating, then maybe home activities should include some stretching of the minds as well as physical fitness. hey, i cant say how easy that is. but i guess starting with books and educational toys and letting them help out in the kitchen and garage just to let them try anything, and less of the gameboys and underground and ragnarok and counterstrike and others. i think i should be glad there's no good tv shows in nz!

:cheers
annie

[Annierobrigado]

another question:

can we as parents suggest to the school board how to improve the educational system? there are PTA's in nz too, right?

:angel
annie

[shagen]

Thanks Diny for starting this thread. These are the kind of questions that are bugging me and Vera.

We struggle to decide which school we shoudl put our children through. No school website will say that they are weak in a particular area or that they lack dedicated teachers. Decile ratings do not speak of successes some of the schools have achieved. Looking at the website alone is not sufficient. We plan to visit schools when we are there in March but time is limited, which ones shodul be see which ones should we give a miss?

What Veronica and Paula has shared here are priceless. Those are the things we parents are looking for or want to know. As much as it is a combination of pupil/teacher/parents there is also the school factor. If a school tolerates kids not being stretched as something acceptable, there is little us parents can do to change that but enforce more at home.

If you guys don't mind, could you please let us know what you looked for when picking a school and why you thought it was the right one.

Thanks a million!
Shagen

[A & M]

This has been a really interesting read, as our 2 (11 & 8) are starting school in Rangiora next week. We have had a quick visit to the school at the beginning of the holidays, and were struck by the space, the play equipment outside and the talk of sport and trips and so on. We had been getting increasingly alarmed in the UK with the emphasis on endless testing. I had a child in tears in year 2 as she had got the idea that she had to practically write a book for her SATS tests.

As many others have already said, particularly in the primary years the classroom teacher can mean the difference between your child thriving or spending the year in complete misery or boredom - we've had both.

Our 2 haven't been to school since we left the UK at the beginning of November and I think they have both benefitted from the break. They have both been reading like mad as we haven't had access to TV.

It will be interesting to see how they get on next week!

Diny, best of luck with the decision making.

Mandy

[Beach Kiwi]

If you guys don't mind, could you please let us know what you looked for when picking a school and why you thought it was the right one.


Actually, you can't just pick any school you want to, as there are rules that apply to where you can enrol your child. The only schools that are partially exempt from these rules are state-integrated private ones, with totally private ones being free to enrol who they like.

Schools operate a home 'zone', from which they must first take pupils who live within that zone. If there is any room for 'outsiders' then they partake in a ballot to see who will 'win' a place in that school.

For all the details on how school enrolment works in New Zealand: CLICK HERE (http://www.minedu.govt.nz/index.cfm?layout=document&documentid=6475&data=l)

[shagen]

Thanks for that Beach Kiwi. We are aware of zoning.

We plan to rent near a school we think will be most beneficial to our kids or in a zone where he will be accepted into that school.

We are not fixed on where to live but want to make sure we have access to good schools.

[Jo and Andy]

Our main aim is to find a good school and move near to it. I want our daughter to be able to have local friends to play with at home and at school.

Not a thing she has been able to do in the UK, as we had to send her to a school not in our district (no way she was going to the ones near us). It is only 1.5 miles away, but it does make a difference to the quick play after school. It is all arranged days etc, as a lot her friends are in the same boat.

My dream is a nice house in a nice close, with kids her own age that she can play with, walk or bike to school with her mates and enjoy being a child at school, and as someone said earlier not be constantly tested and be able to make her own sandwiches (development sounds good and I will ease off on making them for her).

Thanks everyone for your help.

Today is a good day as I put our EOI on last night (9.30am nz time) and we were selected this morning.

:nice1 :P :P :P :P :P :P

[Beach Kiwi]

We plan to rent near a school we think will be most beneficial to our kids or in a zone where he will be accepted into that school.


Be aware that schools tend to check up on where you live in order to make sure you're not trying to beat the 'system'. If they think you've 'cheated' then they may cancel your enrolment, even if your child is already going to the school in question.

[susanlin]

Very interesting reading all your post. I have a daughter of 11 and a son of 16, so I have had an insight into both primary and secondary schooling in NZ. I am wondering why no one has mentioned NCEA??

[shagen]

What's NCEA?

[Beach Kiwi]

^ It's the new method of assessing a childs educational 'qualifications', and replaces the traditional method of exam based assessment.

Read all about NCEA by clicking this link (http://www.nzqa.govt.nz/ncea/about/index.html).

And that's all from me for tonight! :nice1

[leslie]

my daughter has had both excellent school experience and complete-waste-of-time-shoulda-stayed-home-and-watched-tv-instead. its probably a little obvious i am a bit 'into' education matters and feel its v important that ALL kiddies have a chance to do their thing. i've been invovled from reading with dyslexic students to high-level politics, and the one thing i now truly believe is that a childs best chances lie outside of school.

in my daughters case, she absolutley blossomed with gymnastics. i mean, i used to think gymn was like ballet - virtually pointless (no pun intended). but, in good humour i said yes as she was keen to get into it and club thought her v talented. when i saw her hurling herself around the room, surrounded by equally obsessed kids and realised what it must take to do it all i was quite awed. in a single year she achieved something that i believe would be impossible to achieve in an educational setting - and on top of this all her teachers kept raving about how she was the only one not obsessing over boys/ clothes etc and how great it was that she was so 'normal'. she was so confident - glowing. didn't even blink when she had a big accident - should have snapped her neck/ died doing some circus thing with another girl. as she lay pinned on the body board in sick kids hospital, eyes flashing around to see what was happening, i thought my whole world / and hers was coming to an end. eventually the doctors figured out that lindsay is unusually limber and that fortunately for her her neck could bend completely 180 back under the full, falling weight of a 100 lb girl without severe trauma (she was all of 60lb). you have no idea the nervous giggles a few hours later when we all realised it was going to be okay. i asked doc's what to do as she wanted to go back to circus camp the next day - they all laughed. told me to let her go if she felt good next am on the understanding she wouldn't do anything that didn't feel good. by 10 am she was back on the high wire in full acrobatic mode. she never looked back. i had bad dreams for months and will never forget the sight of her when they pulled her out from underneath the other girl - completely grey face with huge, terrified eyes when she realised she couldn't draw a breath.

you cannot get this kind of life experience from a book. if you pick well you can, however, get this experience tied into school. this is why i am v excited to get my kids into nz schools - supportive parents can help fix academics but the character building stuff - not so easy. schools have to value the non-academic and these days few do. sadly its the character issue that will determine whether they mow the lawn or teach the class.

[Mildred]

Steve worked with a NZ teacher last year who told him that kids don't automatically move up to the next year in NZ. If they are lagging behind they are often kept back a year.

[freeflyer]

I think that NZ schools dont follow such a strict national curriculm as schools in the UK, so there is not so much govt. interference.
Because there is no shortage of primary teachers the schools with good reputations can pick the best teachers.


Diny,
Even 'academic' schools offer great recreational activities, so you shouldn't need to make a trade off. The attitude of the principal seems to have alot to do with the focus of the individual school.

Sometimes local knowledge/ gossip is needed.
If you email some Real Estate agents in the area ( telling them you will be arriving soon to buy/ rent) they can be really helpful on what the schools are actually like from the locals point of view, zones, bullying, results etc.

Anna

[Diny]

Thanks for that Anna. I think I'm right in saying that the NZ schools go back next week (can anybody confirm this) - I shall then actually get in touch with some of them and do some fact finding.

Diny

[leslie]

i requested a govt booklet re. uk secondary curriculem (kinda 'curric for dummies' thing) and it arrived yesterday. sophisticated shipping insert boldly states that i ordered it 10 months ago. i had forgotten about it but clearly the govt had given up on my daughter before i gave up on the book.

as a double fire horse leo who is not easily put off i can honestly say that when you consider what they are up against uk students do rather well. what do unknowledgeable/ non leo parents do when their children are struggling? we were just changing schools - cannot imagine what it would be like to face this wall of bureaucracy if you had an issue like bullying to contend with. pathetic.

[Danpoll]

I think it would be fair to say that in general the level of education and intellegience is high amongst all sectors of learning. With a nation of 4 million and 5 universities, and a general requirement that intelligence is a must. I know from liasing with the BCITO Building and Construction Independant Training Org that their qualification in the dying craft of fibrous plastering is far superior I mean far far far superior to the british equilvelent and their keen to make it better. I would therfore hazard a guess that their average students could whipe the floor with our average British ones. A testimont to a country only 150 years old.


Dan[/u]

[Diny]

Quote:

I would therfore hazard a guess that their average students could whipe the floor with our average British ones

Dan I really hope that this will turn out to be the case. However, from my own personal experience this is simply not the case. Before anybody goes leaping on my back about that comment, I'm now looking at the NZ education system through different eyes - but it's only natural that a person should build their opinions and attitudes on what they have actually experienced. That's why I started this thread - I was needing some major reassurance.

If you refer to my first posting you will understand why I find the above comment very difficult to take on baord. Believe me ...... every part of me is hoping you are right :nice1

I am now far less sceptical about NZ education - although certainly still not totally convinced - however, I will reserve any firm opinions until I'm there and the boys are 'living it'.

A friend of mine who moved over to NZ about 15 months ago wrote to me just before Christmas. She got around to telling me about the kids and how they were settling into school. I think the way she described NZ education was really quite good (although it drew no conclusions) she said"

"the education over here has taken a lot of getting use to. I would rather the amount of outdoor activities were halved and the number of classroom activities were doubled. It is very different - but that's not to say it's no good - just very different - the jury is still out".

I guess the fact that I'm very pleased with the education my kids are getting here, combined with my own personal experiences, are causing me to have some doubts. I'm not going to make any better/worse decisions until we're there - I'll sit on the fence and wait and see :nice1

[leslie]

diny - i was okay with my daughters primary schooling here. she started in a small school in leafy barnes with a head teacher from one of the top schools in the country (it had been singled out as a failing school). nonetheless i was facing putting her in gifted school (newton prep) and moving to battersea because the writing was on the wall. we left for toronto instead (4 years) and the success of the academic year depended on the teacher (head was a joke). we returned to london and she had 2 terms in a small primary in st johns wood - it was v good and i would recommend it to anyone - called barrow hill. they got her through the transition beautifully and she did lots of crazy things like playing cricket for PE - at lords, with england team bowlers. we are indebted.

then it all collapsed. secondary schools here are a mess and there are no indicators its going to improve - the plot is well and truly lost. we were going to put her into a low key, well-rounded private (emmanuel) but doing so meant long bus rides and walking through dodgy bits of battersea. the (high-ranking) local private had such severe bullying problems and such poor facilities and pastoral care we were shocked. so we went for the dramatically improving state school with the 'super head' in richmond - then they changed the head. you've read my post on that one?

while i agree it makes life easier if you do well in school, most of the succesful people you hear about every day were terrible students.

by the way, did anyone read the g2 educ supplement the other day - frightening.

[jo b]

Tricky subject really education isn't it.

everyone has different views on what is good/poor education.

I hope you have read my earlier post on pg 1. As similar to Leslie we opted for the small prep school. We looked at so called very succesful high scoring stats schools until one honest head told me that many schools tell their worst pupils to stay at home on the day of the sats :no

When I saw how many pupils were in a class at numerous schools even the local catholic school which has an excellent repuation I actually wondered how these kids concentrate the class rooms were one large classroom divided into 2 :eek with lots of noise.
Anyway I am digressing here, There is a lady who Ian used to work with her daughter used to go to the most excellent private school in the area called 'Bolton School' but at 16 she died of a heroin overdose. :(

So what I am trying to say here is you can go to the best schools money can buy and still not turn out as expected or you could go to the worst and rise above them all. Mainly it is not down to the teachers to give focus and attention on how important school work is it's parents. The teachers might be the best but if the parents have lost interest then the child follows suit.

Jo

[Diny]

Leslie

I can't comment on having first hand knowledge of senior schools over here as yet becuase the boys are not old enough. However, I think (once again) you are tending to be far too general when you quote "then it all collapsed. secondary schools here are a mess". Some are - some aren't. I'm sure that if I had gone through what you have with your daughter then I would be making the same sweeping statements. However, our children are the youngest of 'the cousins' - therefore I have several neices and nephews who are going through the secondary education system. Some go to a high school, some a grammar school. All of them are bright intelligent kids. One of them is now in the 6th form and has been advised by his house master to apply for Cambridge. One of my nieces is head girl, while another has just been awarded a music study scholarship. Another had some difficulties 'keeping up' when she first started secondary school. Her problem was immediately detected, she received extra tuition and attention, she's now a very good student who is level pegging with her peers.

I understand what everybody says about out of classroom activities being equally as important as in classroom ones. I know that playing team sports and physical activity is essential to the development of all children. I'm not disagreeing with any of the information I've had regarding the NZ education system. But at the the end of the day a list of recognised academic qualifications listed on a CV have far more clout than "was good at art and played lots of sport'.

I know that I am going to have to leave all my pre-conceived ideas and opinions behind, but believe me it's difficult. I will have to see whether NZ education out strips UK education or vice versa when I have seen both halves of the game.

You're right Jo - this is a tricky subject. Just goes to show that there's good schools and bad schools all over the globe.

Diny

[Danpoll]

Diny,

I meant plastering students could wipe the floor, god knows what normal students are like in comparrison. Wher did I get the word "whipe" from, that proves UK education is supererior.

Dan

[Diny]

Perhaps you were just being posh!!

:laugh
Diny[/u]

[Beach Kiwi]

After following this thread since it began, the only thing I can say is this:

If you want your children to be educated in the British way, then stay in Britain until they're finished with their schooling.

New Zealand does things its own way, and nothing is going to change that fact.

Sorry to be blunt, but there really isn't any other way to put it.

P.S. This is a general statement, and not one directed at anyone in particular.

[Danpoll]

BUT WE MUST SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!!


I believe our children are the adults of tommorow where ever their educated.


Dan

[Beach Kiwi]

I believe our children are the adults of tommorow where ever their educated.


If your children are going to live in a particular country, isn't it better that they're educated there too?

[markkellaway]

I've got to say that, while Beach Kiwi's comments may come over as a little blunt I agree. The British education system without doubt helps some very bright or motivated students, and there are without doubt some excellent teachers, as there are all over the world.

On the flip side, am I happy that my kids get taught in an environment where the can be kids for as long as they should be? No.
Do I think they leave school prepared for the world? No.
Do I think that the great exam results really give an indication of their potential? No.
Am I happy that my so goes to a beacon school? Yes
Am happy that the teachers care more about keeping that status than the welfare of each child? No.

Yes there are some great teachers in this country, yes there are some great schools, and yes there are some pretty spectacular exam results lately. Let's not forget though that exam results here have been devalued, so what is the point of turning out millions of kids who have the same great grades with no life knowledge if employers don't take the grades seriously? I feel the UK system is TOTALLY obsessed with making the statistics look good, there are exceptions, but then there are to any rule. Having read through many ERO reports in the last 6 months I can't say I've looked into one school that I've thought "blimey, that's rough!". I really believe tat Andrew will be better off leaving school a well rounded person who is not afraid of hard work than someone who has been spoon fed 9 GCSE grade A's.

I probably haven't contributed to the whole debate, just putting some of my thoughts down. :roll: Let's not forget some of the reasons we want to go to NZ, I'm sure stress must be one of them for many, don't our kids deserve that too.

Mark.

:P

[Beach Kiwi]

I've got to say that, while Beach Kiwi's comments may come over as a little blunt...

Beating around the bush accomplishes nothing. If people are coming here expecting to find a clone of the education system in their own country, then they're going to be in for a big(?) surprise.

The New Zealand education system was designed to suit the needs of New Zealand children, not the needs of children from every other country in the world. ;)

[markkellaway]

Hey Beach Kiwi, I'm on your side!! :laugh :laugh :laugh

Mark. :P

[veronica]

I used to work in a secondary school in the UK that had a terrible reputation in the area and for the latter half of their education our girls went there. They both left school having mixed with all sorts from all socioeconomic groups with the GCSEs they needed to go on to further education. The thing with that school was that they didn't get many bright kids and had a lot of middlerange and lower range kids BUT.... the school worked blooming hard to try and ensure that EVERY kid left with some sort of qualification. This didn't help them in the ratings but it sure helped the kids who left there and gave our girls a better understanding of the difficulties that the vast majority of kids have. They can't all be gifted and have superior intelligence......our eldest daughter has an IQ of 130 and youngest 120, they are both dyslexic and NO school at that time in Essex would admit to dyslexia.
The youngest daughters partner went to that school and was one of the real wild child people up to all sorts of things he shouldn't have been. At the school we just about managed to keep him going there and he left with one GCSE in Maths then went to work as a fibre glasser. As a mature student (22) he got himself (with kerrys help) into Uni and now has a degree, guess what, at present there is no work available for him so he is again looking for work as a fibreglasser.

Education is such a small part of life no matter where the kids are. The most important thing is that they must be happy, please, speaking as someone who is old enough to be a gran, they are kids for such a short time, don't burden them with too much emphasis on school achievment, whether they are reading ahead of the others, where they are in the class etc. You can do all this and at 14 the girls discover boys and the boys discover alcohol and all the best laid plans can fall down.
From the little dealings I have had with kids in NZ they come across as polite, confident and happy at school, and thats the best gift you can give them.

[RoadRunner]

Beach Kiwi,
I really appreciate your opinion so I would like to ask you a question about the NZ education system. I just found out about 2 weeks ago that my stepson (who is almost 15) wants to come with us to NZ.

I realize you don't know the US education system so it is unfair to ask you for a comparison but do you have any idea what some differences might be? We believe this will be a wonderful experience for him but would like to know in advance what some differences are so that we can help prepare him perhaps...

Also, we were surprised at the number of "private?" schools (we're just looking in the Wellington region). Private schools in the US don't necessarily have a good reputation so our initial thought is to put him in the public high school. What are the differences in NZ from public to private?

Thanks in advance!!
RoadRunner

[markkellaway]

Well said Veronica! BTW, Anne and I ARE grandparents (I'm only 37, honest!).

Mark. :nice1

[Diny]

Quote

If you want your children to be educated in the British way, then stay in Britain until they're finished with their schooling.

I can understand why you made this comment. I know it wasn't aimed at any one person ..... but I think you may include me in your thoughts when making this statement so I've taken the liberty of replying.

I know it may sound like I want the British way of education ...... it's been very difficult to try and get my questions across without it seeming that I'm being very negative.

I can't help being interested in the education that my boys will be getting. At the moment I'm very happy with their schooling here in the UK. All I really wanted to know - from people who have kids going through the NZ education system at the moment - what their thoughts are regarding the NZ system.

I have to smile to myself at times as it seems to be a mortal sin to even mention Britian with any kind of positive tone - and I'm saying this in a jocular, light hearted manner :nice1 :laugh :nice1 :laugh

I don't know about anybody else - but I've never said that I want my kids educated in the British way - I've simply said that I want as much info as possible so that I've got some kind of idea of what to expect when we arrive. The only NZ school kids I've ever really had any connection with didn't strike me as being particulary bright, motivated or well mannered and I had an NZ school teacher 'ooing and arring' over how gifted my little boy was when she heard him read. He isn't gifted at all - he's just a good average student.

I know it's tricky to get over what I'm really thinking and wanting to ask, I could type page after page on this subject but without actually being able to sit face to face and discuss this topic it's always going to sound like I'm saying UK is best ..... which I'm not. Sorry if it appears this way.

Diny

[Annierobrigado]

Tricky subject really education isn't it.

There is a lady who Ian used to work with her daughter used to go to the most excellent private school in the area called 'Bolton School' but at 16 she died of a heroin overdose. :(


Jo

hi jo

that is what i most fear in schools nowadays... the illegal drugs. i know even if my kids have good values formed from their infancy, i'd still rather not have any of the temptations that could spell disaster for any person, child or adult. it's easy to tell them to just say no, but we don't know what would happen in a situation that they have not experienced at any time in their lives, or have not seen or known anybody who has experienced such circumstances. believe me, i can be quite the naive mom when it comes to growing up, but my imagination can run wild.

i'm fortunate to have my kids go to schools that are relatively drug-free; i hope that continues when we go to nz in the near future.

thanks for sharing
annie

[ruthyroo]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=3605286
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=3605037

Diny - over on the other site you kind of were querying a post about the resources in schools...the NZ Herald link above gives more info on resourcing. Have to agree that my main concerns about NZ education are the stingy government funding and the concurrent requirement for parents to top up the school's funding for anything over the basics. So I would be checking school facilities etc closely.

Also, the government seems very keen to do away with centralised standards for assessment. Mallard in on record stating that he expects to see all NCEA testing and assessment being done in-school in the future. Some might paint this as a welcome lack of government interference - I would tend to see it as a lack of nationally agreed standards and confusing for employers and parents (and teachers!) alike, and basically a cheap cop out for central government. Many 'better' schools in NZ have already opted out of the NCEA system, and use the Cambridge exams instead - which do have internationally recognised assessments and standards.

Just another couple of thoughts to swirl around with the rest!

[Diny]

Thanks for those links Ruthy ... I'm off to have a look at them right now.

It's interesting to read your comments about how some schools are already opting out of this new system and are using the Cambridge exams instead.

I think any examination board which awards internationally recognisable qualifications (regardless to country - it could be Cambridge England or Cambridge NZ ;) ) is a good way to go. Just because we're moving to NZ there's nothing to say that the boys will want to stay there when they get older. Any internationally recognised qualifications - regardless to where they were awarded - will obviously be of some benefit to them in a whole host of countries.

Diny

[Beach Kiwi]

By markkellaway:

Hey Beach Kiwi, I'm on your side!!

I know, so there's no need to panic! ;)

I was just clarifying why I felt it necessary to be blunt. :nice1


By RoadRunner:

...do you have any idea what some differences might be?

One big difference that may actually put him off is the fact that most, if not all, high schools require their pupils to wear a school uniform. This applies to both state and private schools, with private ones having the more 'elaborate' uniforms, that is, ties, blazers, even hats! However, some private schools let their seniors wear 'street' clothes, as they figure they are mature enough to be trusted to wear the right thing. Mind you, having to wear a uniform means you don't need to worry about wearing the 'right' gear all the time.

Although state schools are co-ed, many private, or semi-private ones are segregated, sex-wise, that is, not ethnically, although Maoris do have schools that are pretty much Maori only.

Other obvious differences are the type of sports in New Zealand schools. Most commonly 'taught' sports are rugby, rugby league, soccer, softball, and netball, for the girls. Other sports may be taught in certain schools, but those are the main ones.

The 'jock culture' and 'valley girl' culture is nowhere near as apparent in New Zealand schools, although it is more apparent than when I was at school - probably due to the heavy dose of American culture that we now get via TV, etc.

Respect for teachers, and for the 'institution' of school is probably higher here too, although that is being eroded somewhat as children take onboard the PC 'I am a person in my own right' way of thinking.

Most high school pupils walk to school, some cycle, or get a ride from their parents, and some senior ones take their own cars, especially in the more affluent areas.

Weapons are virtually unheard of at New Zealand schools, especially guns, of which I can't even remember when the last incident of one being taken to school was reported. And I'm pretty certain there's never been an incident of one actually being fired at a New Zealand school.

Drugs are still pretty rare in New Zealand schools, well, in comparison to America, at least, but they do exist to a certain degree - marijuana mostly, but others have also appeared. Mind you, they were around when I went to school, so it's to be expected, I guess.

Bullying is not very common, and is usually acted upon quickly when discovered, although there are probably cases that go unreported. Most schools have anti-bullying policies in place. Things like 'hazing' are also uncommon, if they happen at all.

Over-the-top hairstyles, piercings, and other such things are generally frowned upon, as virtually all schools have a dress code that is enforced fairly rigorously.

New Zealand schools don't have cafeterias, but they do have 'tuck shops' from which you can purchase food, usually sandwiches, pies, rolls, fruit, etc, as well as 'junk' food like potato chips, confectionary and drinks.

Curriculum varies somewhat from school to school, but most teach the common ones like English, maths, history, physics, biology, chemistry, geography, accountancy, etc, as well as languages, including French, Japanese, Maori, etc. Computer studies also feature in high schools, but probably not as much as America.

Well, that's most of it, the rest being pretty much the same as in America.

What are the differences in NZ from public to private?

The main differences are school fees, which can be quite high, the actual physical appearance of the schools - they are more 'unique-looking' than their state counterparts, the quality of their 'resources' is higher, the teachers are generally better, due to the schools being able to pay more to get them, their pass rates are higher, they are more likely to be single sex, etc. However, there are plenty of good state schools as well, so don't write them off too soon.


By Diny:

I can understand why you made this comment. I know it wasn't aimed at any one person - but I think you may include me in your thoughts when making this statement so I've taken the liberty of replying.

I actually do understand why you started this thread, and what you are hoping to learn from it. However, there does seem to be this 'expectation' amongst many migrants, both potential and actual, that despite the 'warning' signs they've seen regarding how things are done here, they still seem to think that New Zealand will turn out to be a mini-Britain, and when they find out it isn't they act all surprised and want to blame New Zealand for being so, well, New Zealand.

No matter how much research you do, or how many people you talk to about this subject, your, and your children's experiences will most likely be completely different to everyone else's. Sure, you'll get a good idea of what it's like over here, but nothing can really compare to going through something firsthand.

By ruthyroo:

Many 'better' schools in NZ have already opted out of the NCEA system, and use the Cambridge exams instead.

I think 'many' is stretching it a bit. Sure there have been some high profile 'better' schools opting to try this system, but they're still in the minority, and from what I can recollect, number less than ten.

Wow, that's probably the longest post I've ever made - anywhere! :mrgreen:

[markkellaway]

Very informative post Beach Kiwi, thank you! :clap

Mark. :P

[RoadRunner]

Beach Kiwi,
What great info! :clap :clap :clap

Many thanks for posting such an incredibly informative and detailed post. Really appreciate it! You're the best! :nice1 :nice1

RoadRunner

[Beach Kiwi]

Thanks for that! :nice1

By the way, RoadRunner, has the uniform thing put your stepson off the idea of schooling in New Zealand? :mrgreen:

[Pakeha Boy]

Now thats the nitty grittys I was looking for BeachK.
Well done you!

You know, another difference, and a big one imo, (and I don't know if its real life or just American TV) between American schooling and commonwealth, is in the way in which a period/lesson ends.
Has anyone ever noticed in all the US TV school shows and movies that when the bell rings, the whole class stands and walks out, even if the teacher is in mid-sentence, followed by the cliche'd yelling out of said teacher to departing students to "remember to get your assignments in by Friday" to which he/she is totally ignored and shoulder-brushed aside by the departing class.

Now, call me thick but, is it only on tv that it happens?
Because if its not, then it is nothing short of total ignorance at worst and sheer rudeness at best. And if it does happen for real, then its happening across an entire nation, and the worlds most powerful nation at that! (Man, where could this lead on to!!)
That behaviour in itself is a very core value to my concerns on my childrens education.
Because I know that it would never happen in either UK or NZ schools, and that in either schooling system they will receive a much much higher degree of discipline and respect, pound for pound, than in many many, other countries.
Bottom line is, we're all so very fortunate to have our children in one very good education system let alone having the choice to another very good one.

[Danpoll]

Saying that PB i watched a trailer for Grange Hill the other day, 1) it diden't have tucker genkins in it nor roly or Mr Bronson. Now if what I saw is any way a depiction of british schooling then I would have to say "oi education secetary, No!!" Then this getting up when the bell ring ethos of modern televison schools, (my wife reliabaly informs me) that the australian soap of neighbours also does this. As to does home and away. It must therefore be a dramatic licence thing. I will make a point of watching grange hill this week.


Dan

[veronica]

one thing about the bells ringing and everybody just up and leaving....they have another class to go to.
Kerry at uni had a lecturer who used to waffle on after his time was up. if they left the lecture he would comment on it...if they stayed they would be late for the next lecture and get blasted for being late or be excluded from the lecture as it had already started. so on this issue I can see both sides.

[Diny]

I can understand the need to terminate one lesson quickly in order to get to another. But come on .... ending a lesson in the manner described above is nothing but a display of disrespectful bad manners. Just because you're in a hurry doesn't mean you have to be ignorant.

On the other hand .... we are talking about TV shows here, I wonder how true to life they really are.

Diny

[jo b]

Hmmm


If I was in work and attending a meeting which had run over. I think it would be a career limiting move to just stand up and walk out when the meeting should have ended even if I had another meeting to go to.

Just a thought

Jo

[RoadRunner]

Beach Kiwi,
By the way, RoadRunner, has the uniform thing put your stepson off the idea of schooling in New Zealand?
Actually, my *husband* loved the idea of a uniform - until he saw the prices! :eek

The schools seem to have good curriculums and interesting college-like scheduling. And lots more outdoor activities than they would ever have in the US. All in all, I think we really believe it will be a great experience in many ways.

By the way, if anyone has kids in any of the following enrolment zones, please let me know what you think the good/bad points are: Onslow College, Newlands College, Wellington High School, or Wellington College. (We're looking at the reports and the school Web sites but it always helps to have personal inputs!)

RoadRunner

[jonSE]

Diny,

Firstly we have no children, so we have no direct "hands on" experience of current education in either the UK or NZ. Hence what follows is purely observation.

As an employer of Graduate Engineers I have found almost without exception that Kiwi Engineers are more literate and more numerate than UK Engineers. They may not be better Engineers per se but they are better at demonstrating that they are.

School Children in NZ (and in OZ,US,Singapore, Pacific Islands, Caribbean, rest of Europe) are in general more polite and courteous than in the UK. Make that far more polite and courteous, and apologies if I left out other significant bits of the world - I haven't been there so can't comment.

The point I am trying to make is that what I see of the UK education system is that it would appear to be failing in the basics, and at the point where those children eventually become adults and go into the big wide world to live there own lives and earn a living, the basics are what will assist them most.

Hope your house sells soon

Jon

Packers (Bishops Move) arrive 4th Feb. Job in Auckland starts 1st March.

[veronica]

A lot of those failings are not of the school but the parenting the kids are getting at home. Its not a schools responsibility to teach kids respect and courtesy, that is something that should be addressed at home. If the kids in the UK had more respect then it would free up a lot of classroom time for education instead of crowd control.

[markkellaway]

The point is that, as with education itself, respect, good manners, and good behaviour are taught at home, but are aso taught not just at school but by society as a whole. Just as it is wrong to blame shools alone for the behaviour problems in the UK it is just as wrong to blame parents alone, we all play a part.

As a parent who has been to "parenting classes" with relate (highly recomended) as aresult of having problems with our eldest son I can say from bitter experience that it is very difficult, when you have a child who starts to go off the rails, to cope because society doesn't encourage discipline and respect, it encourages freedom of choice and expression, even for young children. I have met many "normal" couples with good backgrounds and excellent attitudes towards respect and discipline that have had no support from the "system".

The UK is now a society where even very young children are supposed to have the freedom to express themselves at the rxpense of learning some of life's valuable lessons, and as a result we have ended up in a society that looks after number one.

Discipline and respect at home is useless without the same at school and in society outside of school. This is NOT the fault of teachers but is the fault of society as a whole, not just parents.

Sorry to sound a bit "ticked off", I feel very passionate about this one. :P

BTW, I do agree that there are lots of bad parents, but I believe these to be a symptom rather than a cause in themselves.

Mark. :P

[jo b]

Mark,

just like to add I absolutly agree.
I know a family whose daughters have turned out brilliant with excellent jobs and families but son went off the rails (he is now a recovering heroin addict).

The parenting he received was no different to the daughters but he needed or should have had more rigid boundaries put down by all parts of society, otherwise they have no road to go on and hence go off track.

This sadly is happening all over society when too many people turn a blind eye, tut and blame the parents for bad behaviour without a thought that they could contribute and step in and save tomorrows society.
One example below.

I always remember being told off on a bus by an old lady for not standing up to let someone older than me but younger than her have my seat. Everyone else tutted at her as I was only 9 and had my newly bought rabbit in a giant box on my knee.

It taught me a valuable lesson though that not only my parents are watching if I am well behaved, society is too.

Jo