[stephen0077]

Hi,

We've been doing a lot of reading about living in NZ, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and everything about it sounds great.

However, I was doing a bit more digging yesterday and I came across a piece on the NZHerald website entitled "What can be done to stop skilled workers heading overseas?". Some of the views of the respondants are, to say the least, discouraging. As most of the respondents seems to be born and bred NZers, I would be interested in hearing some other views from recent or long term migrants.

There must be something like 150 respondents to this article and, although all of them agree that NZ is a beautiful place, very few of them have much positive to say in terms of politics, equality, employment, cost of living, home ownership, taxation, childcare and so on. I'm sure if you asked the same question here in the UK you would get the same kind of answers so I'm not sure how seriously we should take it.

Like anywhere else in the world, I wouldn't expect living in NZ to be without it's problems or issues. However, this article does raise some pretty important questions for us. Our reason for wanting to immigrate to NZ is to improve our quality of life. We're both outdoorsy people and living in South London no longer cuts it for us, whereas NZ can give it to us in abundance. We also like to socialise and travel, though, and I'm worried that the low wages and high
taxes/rates mentioned in this article would stop us from doing these things. I have 8 years experience working in interent development and my wife is a graphic designer, so our skills are pretty much in demand here in the UK and the salaries v's cost of living is just about favourable. Would we find the same thing in NZ?

For those of you reading this article in NZ, does any of it ring true or is it just a serious case of the grass is greener...? These are pretty serious issues for us and for the moment we have put the breaks on our plans until we can be otherwise reassured.

Thanks everyone for your time.

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501154&objectid=10477438&pnum=0

[Moorf Junior]

hi stephen,

My first thought is how many of those leaving are expats that had moved to NZ in the first place. I think it has a lot to do with the old saying 'the grass is greener.'

I could be wrong, but i think if you were born and bred kiwi, i'd understand why they would want for something else, especially as Oz is so close and many go for better wage and a more busy life etc, where as us in particular, now feel that the better wages in the UK doesnt compensate for the overcrowdedness (sp?) of the UK, and are willing to take a cut in exchange for some breathing space and a slower pace of life.

I also wonder, how many of those skilled workers end up coming back after a while!

[Peter&Liz]

Hi Stephen,

I can see why a lot of young New Zealanders might want to leave for at least a while, if not for the experience then for the better money. When you look at the cost of housing relative to wages, then it must be hard for anyone on average incomes without savings to get onto the Housing market. I do suspect many make some money abroad and end up coming back to NZ in later life.

And I guess if no one was leaving then they wouldn’t be letting any of us in!

In our case we know that out income will be lower than here in the UK, but I feel that it will be more than offset by an improved quality of life, a slower pace, better environment and hopefully the lower income will be compensated for no longer having a mortgage to worry about.

I guess whether NZ is the right option depends on your circumstance and priorities, for us it seems to offer more of what matters than the UK. For others it will be the other way round.

Peter

[Rusty]

Not sure how much this will help, but with any article or public question you always receive more negative than positive responses. Same with selling/marketing - no-one rings a company care centre to say they were satisfied with the product and could they have more. People only call to complain.
Imagine a radio phone-in that says 'are you happy with your wages/life?' - Most people want to improve their lot and say they would change if they could, even though what they have is good already.
Similarly, if you are happy with what you have, then it is unlikely you will call and say so - it's just showing off then.

Does that make sense?
I guess everyone has a different reason to consider moving and that will affect how you view it. - Us, we want a better life for the kids with less stress and consumerism.

[Belmont Babes]

Don't know whether it will be better for us or not but only one way to find out. We figure we can always come back, at a cost I know, but life is not all about money.

[aggelon]

Knowing the editorial standpoint of the Herald they would seek out those disaffected with the country at present

[StevieD]

Stephen, like anywhere in the world, people have the desire to move. That doesn't necessarily mean that the place is "bad" - the UK isn't "bad" but we just felt that we needed a change and to escape the stress of the place we lived in, and also to give our kids more space and freedom.
And we all know that words can be used to paint all sorts of pictures! I think if you read the majority of threads on this forum from people who are living here and having a great time, then you can take your own views from that.
Yes, there are bad things go on here too, and nothing is perfect, wherever you are.

We know that we have more here than we could ever have hoped to have in Britain in our circumstances. We had the chance to start afresh and are grasping that chance with both hands. We have a nicer, larger house, more space and a clean environment surrounded by wildlife and greenery. Compared to what we had in UK, no way could we have this unless we were very well heeled indeed.

But that doesn't mean that people don't move on, as the article suggests. But I don't think it is anything to do with NZ, more the natural movement of Kiwis to their neighbour to change perspective and earn a bit more money.
After all, it has gone on for many many years.

Steve

[BkyMonster]

I have friend who is a native New Zealander (she lives in Holland with her Fiance at the moment). Regardless, she says that for some industries it is more or less expected that new graduates of university will go overseas to get themselves experience. No wonder that many of them stay for longer than a few years. :roll
She has mentioned that the typical post university plan tends to either involve starting a new business in NZ (entrepreneurial spirit :) ) or going overseas for a few years of experience.
It's also common, according to her, to rack up lots of debt before age 30 and then at 30 look at moving home to NZ and settling down and paying off the debt.
Not sure how accurate that is, but certainly an interesting perspective. :p

[Carol]

Been here 12 years. (almost)

Will we stay?
hmmmmmmm

Jury is still out.

My main problem with NZ is it is just so far away from everywhere.
I do realise of course that this is possibly the main reasonm many people come here - but it really is starting to become a major problem for us now - with elderly parents getting older and still in the UK etc.

[LesleyS]

Only been here a short while, but I know that the wages here will be our biggest negative...time will tell if the outstanding positives will outweigh this major issue! We do love it here!

But...you cannot gloss over the facts with 'it's a beautiful place to live' if you feel seriously undervalued (ie: being paid apprentice wages - even though you have 30 years trade experience, just because the employer knows you need the job to qualify for PR here)

It's a personal insight, and early days I know, but it's truthful...time will tell I guess!

[ourquest]

As humans we do seem to have a tendency to want an improvement in everything, when this is a bit over-optimistic. It is all so personal too; some people are predominantly positive, some are negative. To some money is significantly important and they feel that their personal worth is reduced if they take a pay cut. Others have situations in the own country of origin which mean that a move to NZ will by definition be an improvement.

And despite all of these factors, everyone's own moods will vary and some days it will all seem worthwhile, and other days it most definitely won't, and so the danger of listening to other people's opinion is that you have absolutely no way of knowing their own personal circumstances, motives or mental outlook at the time of voicing the opinion. Most of the time, we don't even know ourselves.

Bottom line is you could pay everyone a six figure income, and some will complain. The sun could shine every day and some will complain. It might rain every day, and some will complain.

Complaints are only thoughts, and not entirely related to the subject about which these people complain. For example, an interesting thread on a controversial forum looking at the negatives about NZ, and specifically that of racism, left me with the distinct impression that the contributors had confused their condemnation of racism (justified) with a condemnation of NZ as a whole (unjustified). The entire thread would give the average reader the feeling that NZ was the problem, and not the attitudes of some individuals who might have lived anywhere.

In summary, NZ isn't one person's experience, or one type of weather, or represented by one person's salary, and if you (anyone reading this) is an objective, adaptable, tolerant and positive thinker then you will enjoy and benefit from most experiences in life. So the ultimate advice is to place more emphasis on improving these traits in yourselves than on taking to heart other's opinions of external factors outside of your control.

Knowledge is power, but knowing about yourself comes first.
;)

[LesleyS]

Very insightful Ourquest, and objectively written.

I still maintain that the wages we have been offered for a highly skilled worker with experience in an area of 'immediate skills shortages' are not adequate to support a family - so far they do not even cover rent and food! And our expectations before we arrived were not 'rose tinted'.

[Moorf]

I have friend who is a native New Zealander (she lives in Holland with her Fiance at the moment). Regardless, she says that for some industries it is more or less expected that new graduates of university will go overseas to get themselves experience. No wonder that many of them stay for longer than a few years.
She has mentioned that the typical post university plan tends to either involve starting a new business in NZ (entrepreneurial spirit ) or going overseas for a few years of experience.
It's also common, according to her, to rack up lots of debt before age 30 and then at 30 look at moving home to NZ and settling down and paying off the debt.
Not sure how accurate that is, but certainly an interesting perspective.

My neighbour's daughter lives and works in Melbourne (Kiwi born and bred) and I remember her telling me how, because she's out of the country, she doesn't have to repay any of her student loan (which, 10 yrs after Uni and a stint in UK, is till c. $15k) - I think she also mentioned the interest is frozen? Either way, sounded like a good reason for not coming back until they could save to repay to me.

Does anyone else know of this arrangement? I may have grasped the wrong end of the stick.....

[incredible hulse]

My neighbour's daughter lives and works in Melbourne (Kiwi born and bred) and I remember her telling me how, because she's out of the country, she doesn't have to repay any of her student loan (which, 10 yrs after Uni and a stint in UK, is till c. $15k) - I think she also mentioned the interest is frozen? Either way, sounded like a good reason for not coming back until they could save to repay to me.

Does anyone else know of this arrangement? I may have grasped the wrong end of the stick.....
Not sure if this is true now. I've looked recently at getting a student loan to pay for a CPL for helicopters. One of the thoughts I had was then to go to Oz to work and the loan would be frozen until/if I returned to NZ as I had been told by a colleague this was possible. What actually happens now is after 6 months out of the country the loan becomes interest bearing and repayments have to start.

In terms of negative aspects of NZ and why young locals would want to leave I would cite the following :
- Work - not just poor salaries but also the fact that in many areas NZ is way behind the rest of the world in terms of infrastructure and technology. I suspect if you were a bright young kiwi who wanted to be pushed you would have more chance in Europe, US or Oz.
- Travel - the rest of the world contains a lot of historic, cultural places that just aren't available in NZ
- Fun - I would suspect if you had grown up in Hicksville, NZ the thought of London, Paris, New York, etc would be an attraction for some in their late teens.

[boatieman]

Hi I would love to PM you on this but you have PM switched off. Let me know when you switch it on

[pleccy2000]

As humans we do seem to have a tendency to want an improvement in everything, when this is a bit over-optimistic. It is all so personal too; some people are predominantly positive, some are negative. To some money is significantly important and they feel that their personal worth is reduced if they take a pay cut. Others have situations in the own country of origin which mean that a move to NZ will by definition be an improvement.

And despite all of these factors, everyone's own moods will vary and some days it will all seem worthwhile, and other days it most definitely won't, and so the danger of listening to other people's opinion is that you have absolutely no way of knowing their own personal circumstances, motives or mental outlook at the time of voicing the opinion. Most of the time, we don't even know ourselves.

Bottom line is you could pay everyone a six figure income, and some will complain. The sun could shine every day and some will complain. It might rain every day, and some will complain.

Complaints are only thoughts, and not entirely related to the subject about which these people complain. For example, an interesting thread on a controversial forum looking at the negatives about NZ, and specifically that of racism, left me with the distinct impression that the contributors had confused their condemnation of racism (justified) with a condemnation of NZ as a whole (unjustified). The entire thread would give the average reader the feeling that NZ was the problem, and not the attitudes of some individuals who might have lived anywhere.

In summary, NZ isn't one person's experience, or one type of weather, or represented by one person's salary, and if you (anyone reading this) is an objective, adaptable, tolerant and positive thinker then you will enjoy and benefit from most experiences in life. So the ultimate advice is to place more emphasis on improving these traits in yourselves than on taking to heart other's opinions of external factors outside of your control.

Knowledge is power, but knowing about yourself comes first.
;)

You have a great way with words.