NZ Hopeful
29th January 2008, 11:37 PM
Having recently discovered that 'Wh' is pronounced 'F' I was wondering if there are any other pronunciations that people have been surprised by?! :cheers
Pronunciations
Sam B
29th January 2008, 11:43 PM
I honestly wouldn't know where to start.
IanW99
29th January 2008, 11:45 PM
Having recently discovered that 'Wh' is pronounced 'F' I was wondering if there are any other pronunciations that people have been surprised by?! :cheers
After the Wh sound the next best must be e which is pronounced i,
sounds so strange to those from the UK.
Everytime a kiwi says Head it sounds like hid, Pen sound like pin etc.
Sure bin and clear will agree :D
Ian
After the Wh sound the next best must be e which is pronounced i,
sounds so strange to those from the UK.
Everytime a kiwi says Head it sounds like hid, Pen sound like pin etc.
Sure bin and clear will agree :D
Ian
NZ Hopeful
29th January 2008, 11:49 PM
After the Wh sound the next best must be e which is pronounced i,
sounds so strange to those from the UK.
Everytime a kiwi says Head it sounds like hid, Pen sound like pin etc.
Sure bin and clear will agree :D
Ian
It took me a while but I got there :laugh
sounds so strange to those from the UK.
Everytime a kiwi says Head it sounds like hid, Pen sound like pin etc.
Sure bin and clear will agree :D
Ian
It took me a while but I got there :laugh
benandclare
30th January 2008, 12:03 AM
Sure bin and clear will agree :D
Ian
:D :D :D
Ian
:D :D :D
Jo Jo
30th January 2008, 12:10 AM
Ha ha - every time I see the name "benandclare" I say "bin and clear" in my hid.
ourquest
30th January 2008, 12:25 AM
The "wh" letter in Maori is often pronounced as an english "f", but in some areas, and historically apparently more correctly it is pronounced as an aspirated "w", by closing the lips together and emitting breath at the same time, rather than placing the bottom lip against the top teeth as one would with "f".
"ng" as it appears in Whangarei, for example, you don't sound the g, but rather say it as you would in the english word song.
Technically, AFAIK, each vowel should be sounded, usually with equal emphasis, so Kaitaia, should be pronounced Kaa ee taa ee ya, or near enough. The two "a"s are there to indicate that the a sound is deep, similar to the pronunciation of car.
New Zealand english is certainly a fascinating study of unusual use of vowels and swallowing of letters. Words are generally pronounced with the tongue close to the palate, which as others have suggested make a's sound like e's, i's sound like u's.
"ng" as it appears in Whangarei, for example, you don't sound the g, but rather say it as you would in the english word song.
Technically, AFAIK, each vowel should be sounded, usually with equal emphasis, so Kaitaia, should be pronounced Kaa ee taa ee ya, or near enough. The two "a"s are there to indicate that the a sound is deep, similar to the pronunciation of car.
New Zealand english is certainly a fascinating study of unusual use of vowels and swallowing of letters. Words are generally pronounced with the tongue close to the palate, which as others have suggested make a's sound like e's, i's sound like u's.
Mels
30th January 2008, 01:20 AM
i's sound like u's.
does that mean Ben, who has become, Bin, is now a Bun? :D
sorry - I'll go and clean the bathroom now :exit
does that mean Ben, who has become, Bin, is now a Bun? :D
sorry - I'll go and clean the bathroom now :exit
Jennispink
30th January 2008, 02:02 AM
I just have to say, I love the Kiwi accent and I love the way Maori language has kept it's identity. I can't wait for DS, who is only just starting to talk now, to start picking up the accent when we eventually "git" there.
My mum just keeps telling me though that he'll never be able to count to 6:D
My mum just keeps telling me though that he'll never be able to count to 6:D
Rusty
30th January 2008, 04:43 AM
So if I have understood this correctly, by the end of the year my family will become...
Div, Cleer, Mukell, Bicky and Jeck?
:D :D
Div, Cleer, Mukell, Bicky and Jeck?
:D :D
NZ Hopeful
30th January 2008, 05:35 AM
So if I have understood this correctly, by the end of the year my family will become...
Div, Cleer, Mukell, Bicky and Jeck?
:D :D
Yis! Thats right :laugh
Div, Cleer, Mukell, Bicky and Jeck?
:D :D
Yis! Thats right :laugh
JayBee
30th January 2008, 06:26 AM
I picked up "Safari Pete's" Oz and NZ adventures book from one of the hostels we stayed at and it has a useful little section of "Kiwi Dictonary"
including;
bun button - been bitten by an insect
suchs peck - half a dozen beers
sex - one less than sivven!
I'm still wondering how to pronounce the place Te Puke though ...
including;
bun button - been bitten by an insect
suchs peck - half a dozen beers
sex - one less than sivven!
I'm still wondering how to pronounce the place Te Puke though ...
lockstock
30th January 2008, 07:26 AM
I wondered why my neighbour asked me if I had any pigs. For the washing.
And back to property sales, you have to admire those magniificent dicks.
And back to property sales, you have to admire those magniificent dicks.
IanW99
30th January 2008, 07:50 AM
Ourquest has reminded me that although most times when you see wh together then it is the 'f' sound but there are times when it is still a 'w'
The most obvious one to us in Wellington is for the suburb of Whitby which of course is pronounced the same as in the UK and not fitby :exit .
Ian
The most obvious one to us in Wellington is for the suburb of Whitby which of course is pronounced the same as in the UK and not fitby :exit .
Ian
KerryS
30th January 2008, 09:55 AM
I wondered why my neighbour asked me if I had any pigs. For the washing.
And back to property sales, you have to admire those magniificent dicks.
I was asked on entering the country for the first time as a backpacker whether I had any pigs. I thought the customs officer was a bit mad - where on earth would I have secreted livestock in my backpack? And then he saw my blank look and said "Pigs - for your tint." And I realised he wanted to see if my tent pegs were clean...
I was also confused when asked if I wanted to see a new neighbours dick - as apparantly it was enormous. I wondered I was going to be privvy to some strange party piece!
Whoever asked about Te Puke it is pronounced Tay Pook-e.
And back to property sales, you have to admire those magniificent dicks.
I was asked on entering the country for the first time as a backpacker whether I had any pigs. I thought the customs officer was a bit mad - where on earth would I have secreted livestock in my backpack? And then he saw my blank look and said "Pigs - for your tint." And I realised he wanted to see if my tent pegs were clean...
I was also confused when asked if I wanted to see a new neighbours dick - as apparantly it was enormous. I wondered I was going to be privvy to some strange party piece!
Whoever asked about Te Puke it is pronounced Tay Pook-e.
dharder
30th January 2008, 10:22 AM
Ourquest has reminded me that although most times when you see wh together then it is the 'f' sound but there are times when it is still a 'w'The most obvious one to us in Wellington is for the suburb of Whitby which of course is pronounced the same as in the UK and not fitby :exit .
But surely it is only Maori names where the 'Wh' is an 'f', and English names are just that, English names?
I don't actually find Maori names that hard to pronounce, it is a rather phonetic language after all. I can't roll an 'r', that makes it difficult for me, but once you know the couple of odd bits (like the 'wh'), it seems doable.
Now the Kiwi English, that is a completely different story... :)
Daniela
But surely it is only Maori names where the 'Wh' is an 'f', and English names are just that, English names?
I don't actually find Maori names that hard to pronounce, it is a rather phonetic language after all. I can't roll an 'r', that makes it difficult for me, but once you know the couple of odd bits (like the 'wh'), it seems doable.
Now the Kiwi English, that is a completely different story... :)
Daniela
jo b
30th January 2008, 10:47 AM
This has always amused me.
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment :roll
Jo
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment :roll
Jo
dharder
30th January 2008, 11:12 AM
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment
Not entirely sure what you are getting at (or rather, your niece), why would they say 'ugga bugga'?
I know the 'wh' and 'f' are a bit of a doubtful case, but mainly, at some point someone sat down and listened to what was said and wrote it down in phonetic spelling. At the time, they must have thought 'wh' conveyed most accurately what the initial sound of 'whakatane' for example sounded like, but maybe it was one of those in-between sounds that even a phonetic alphabet has problems with (like the Spanish 'd'). I also don't think it is supposed to be a 'proper' F, but maybe the the F gets closest.
Finding ways to write down an essentially only oral language is always tricky and loaded with all sorts of baggage (who gets to write it down, why, will there be a standard, who decides). But since it is still spoken today, has regional variations, and develops through time, I don't really think we need to confirm a pronunciation as such (not like Latin, where really we can't be sure because no one speaks it anymore).
I hear New Zealanders saying that the efforts to produce Maori names correctly has improved greatly over the years, and people are now trying to be more authentic in the News, for example. But since people haven't tried before that, I'm sure what is considered authentic Maori pronunciation may not actually be what people considered it 70 years ago.
I'm looking for a Maori language learning course for kids, has anyone come across a good one?
Daniela
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment
Not entirely sure what you are getting at (or rather, your niece), why would they say 'ugga bugga'?
I know the 'wh' and 'f' are a bit of a doubtful case, but mainly, at some point someone sat down and listened to what was said and wrote it down in phonetic spelling. At the time, they must have thought 'wh' conveyed most accurately what the initial sound of 'whakatane' for example sounded like, but maybe it was one of those in-between sounds that even a phonetic alphabet has problems with (like the Spanish 'd'). I also don't think it is supposed to be a 'proper' F, but maybe the the F gets closest.
Finding ways to write down an essentially only oral language is always tricky and loaded with all sorts of baggage (who gets to write it down, why, will there be a standard, who decides). But since it is still spoken today, has regional variations, and develops through time, I don't really think we need to confirm a pronunciation as such (not like Latin, where really we can't be sure because no one speaks it anymore).
I hear New Zealanders saying that the efforts to produce Maori names correctly has improved greatly over the years, and people are now trying to be more authentic in the News, for example. But since people haven't tried before that, I'm sure what is considered authentic Maori pronunciation may not actually be what people considered it 70 years ago.
I'm looking for a Maori language learning course for kids, has anyone come across a good one?
Daniela
IanW99
30th January 2008, 11:31 AM
But surely it is only Maori names where the 'Wh' is an 'f', and English names are just that, English names?
...
Of course you are correct, but it does sort of depend on if you know that it is an english or maori name doesn't it?
Anyhoo just an observation that I thought some might find interesting:laugh
Ian
...
Of course you are correct, but it does sort of depend on if you know that it is an english or maori name doesn't it?
Anyhoo just an observation that I thought some might find interesting:laugh
Ian
tomo1340
30th January 2008, 11:35 AM
I wonder if the wh to f thing works on the principle of making the f shape with the mouth but breathing a sort of wh instead. Does that come close.
Going OT for a sec, what strikes me as odd is 'Dora the explorer' you get all the mexican pronunciations in the program, but if you buy the magazine you get the Spanish phoentics. For example 'Gracias' would have the c lisped almost into a th sound- Grathias. Whereas the Mexican would be 'Grassias'.
Going OT for a sec, what strikes me as odd is 'Dora the explorer' you get all the mexican pronunciations in the program, but if you buy the magazine you get the Spanish phoentics. For example 'Gracias' would have the c lisped almost into a th sound- Grathias. Whereas the Mexican would be 'Grassias'.
kanatakiwi
30th January 2008, 12:21 PM
This has always amused me.
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment :roll
Jo
Well they may not be able to confirm to the English alphabet as it was irrelevant to them, and most of the rest of the world, however the correct sound could certainly be confirmed as its been passed down through generations orally until today.
As to your nieces comments, I don't know what you are getting at, as Maori language does not and has never included the sounds of B or G. sounds like an ill informed comment which was meant to be a put down.
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment :roll
Jo
Well they may not be able to confirm to the English alphabet as it was irrelevant to them, and most of the rest of the world, however the correct sound could certainly be confirmed as its been passed down through generations orally until today.
As to your nieces comments, I don't know what you are getting at, as Maori language does not and has never included the sounds of B or G. sounds like an ill informed comment which was meant to be a put down.
Pookeko
30th January 2008, 12:49 PM
This has always amused me.
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment
Jo
"Ugga bubba"???... What they were more likely doing is speaking Maori before the British settlers arrived. Funny that... :roll
Anyway I think missionaries wrote the language down in the early 1800s. The missionaries certainly had the English language...
I guess they chose the WH to represent the regional variations in the pronounciation of the same word with either a F sound or a W sound.
Doesn't follow suit with the South Island variation to NG which is K, as in Aoraki = Aorangi (Mount Cook) or Kai Tahu = Ngai Tahu (the main South Island tribe). Maybe they didn't make it that far south?? :laugh
Everybody always has a good laugh pronouncing anything that starts with Whaka- but after a while you don't hear it anymore, like Whakatane... it's just a word. :D
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment
Jo
"Ugga bubba"???... What they were more likely doing is speaking Maori before the British settlers arrived. Funny that... :roll
Anyway I think missionaries wrote the language down in the early 1800s. The missionaries certainly had the English language...
I guess they chose the WH to represent the regional variations in the pronounciation of the same word with either a F sound or a W sound.
Doesn't follow suit with the South Island variation to NG which is K, as in Aoraki = Aorangi (Mount Cook) or Kai Tahu = Ngai Tahu (the main South Island tribe). Maybe they didn't make it that far south?? :laugh
Everybody always has a good laugh pronouncing anything that starts with Whaka- but after a while you don't hear it anymore, like Whakatane... it's just a word. :D
PeteS
30th January 2008, 06:37 PM
The best Kiwi-ism we had was in Wellington Earport. Janet wanted to post a letter, so she asked at the information disk where the nearest post box was. She was told, "Go to the bottom of the Iscaltors, and then round by the chickin disk.
Me and the boss think that what has happened to Kiwi speak, is a vowel shift. A E I O U have all moved along one to become E I O U A. It nearly works...
Me and the boss think that what has happened to Kiwi speak, is a vowel shift. A E I O U have all moved along one to become E I O U A. It nearly works...
wiki
30th January 2008, 07:04 PM
When I was in the UK to start with it used to bug me that people would say pun when they meant pen and wake when they meant week - then again, I was in Lancs which has it's only peculiar way of mangling vowels *wink*
Maori written in English only uses 13 or 14 of the 26 letters in the alphabet and not all of the pronunciation fits properly, as evidenced by wh and ng
The other big pronunciation difference is that kiwis don't tend to differentiate on the dipthongs and vowel combinations.
This drives my OH nuts :D but I say here, hair, and hare exactly the same way - same for ware, wear, where and we're.
To me, and many other kiwis we were taught that they rhyme so we don't bother to change the emphasis.
Made me harder to understand in the UK - but then again, it makes poetry writing really easy!
Maori written in English only uses 13 or 14 of the 26 letters in the alphabet and not all of the pronunciation fits properly, as evidenced by wh and ng
The other big pronunciation difference is that kiwis don't tend to differentiate on the dipthongs and vowel combinations.
This drives my OH nuts :D but I say here, hair, and hare exactly the same way - same for ware, wear, where and we're.
To me, and many other kiwis we were taught that they rhyme so we don't bother to change the emphasis.
Made me harder to understand in the UK - but then again, it makes poetry writing really easy!
LesleyS
30th January 2008, 07:12 PM
My daughter's friends at school make us laugh when they say " Oh what a lovely Wistie" :confused: (It's a West HighlandTerrier) So much so that we say it all the time at home now - "Where's the Wistie?" :D
Potato
30th January 2008, 07:23 PM
The "Wh" is apparently an "F" but without your upper front teeth touching your bottom lips.
Exceptions are parts of Taranaki and maybe some others, where it's not pronounced as "F" at all.
A good kiwi pronounciation is
"Pissed aside" - Pesticide
Exceptions are parts of Taranaki and maybe some others, where it's not pronounced as "F" at all.
A good kiwi pronounciation is
"Pissed aside" - Pesticide
Potato
30th January 2008, 07:27 PM
End the full lust:
1. Milburn - Capital of Victoria (Melbourne)
2. Peck - I'm packing a suitcase (Pack)
3. Pissed aside - Chemical which terminates insects (Pesticide)
4. Pigs - Hang out washing with (Pegs)
5. Pump - To act as agent for prostitute (Pimp)
6. Pug - Large animal (Pig)
7. Nin tin dough - Computer game (Nintendo)
8. Munner stroney - soup (Minestrone)
9. Min - Male of the species (Men)
10. Mess Kara - eye makeup (Mascara)
11. Mckennock - person who fixes cars (Mechanic)
12. Mere - Mayor
13. Leather - foam produced from soap (Lather)
14. Lift - To leave (Left)
15. Kiri Pecker - Famous australian businessman (Kerry Packer)
16. Kittle crusps - Potato chips (Kettle brand crisps)
17. Key tongue - ex OZ prime minister (Paul Keating)
18. Ken's - Cairns
19. Jumbo - pet name for Jimmy Connors (tennis player) (Jimbo)
20. Jungle bills - Christmas carol (Jingle Bells)
21. Inner me - enemy
22. Guess - Vapour (Gas)
23. Fush - marine creatures (Fish)
24. Fitter cheney - type of pasta (work this one out yourself!)
25. Ever cardeau - Avocado
26. Fear hear - blonde (Fair hair)
27. Ear - mix of nitrogen and oxygen (Air)
28. Ear roebucks - exercise at the gym (Aerobics)
29. Duffy cult - not easy (Difficult)
30. Day old chuck - young poultry (not vomit)
31. Bug hut - popular recording (Big Hit)
32. Bun button - been bitten by insect
33. Amejen - Visualise (Imagine)
34. Rissal Crew - Russell Crowe (NZ-born, but raised in Australia, actor)
1. Milburn - Capital of Victoria (Melbourne)
2. Peck - I'm packing a suitcase (Pack)
3. Pissed aside - Chemical which terminates insects (Pesticide)
4. Pigs - Hang out washing with (Pegs)
5. Pump - To act as agent for prostitute (Pimp)
6. Pug - Large animal (Pig)
7. Nin tin dough - Computer game (Nintendo)
8. Munner stroney - soup (Minestrone)
9. Min - Male of the species (Men)
10. Mess Kara - eye makeup (Mascara)
11. Mckennock - person who fixes cars (Mechanic)
12. Mere - Mayor
13. Leather - foam produced from soap (Lather)
14. Lift - To leave (Left)
15. Kiri Pecker - Famous australian businessman (Kerry Packer)
16. Kittle crusps - Potato chips (Kettle brand crisps)
17. Key tongue - ex OZ prime minister (Paul Keating)
18. Ken's - Cairns
19. Jumbo - pet name for Jimmy Connors (tennis player) (Jimbo)
20. Jungle bills - Christmas carol (Jingle Bells)
21. Inner me - enemy
22. Guess - Vapour (Gas)
23. Fush - marine creatures (Fish)
24. Fitter cheney - type of pasta (work this one out yourself!)
25. Ever cardeau - Avocado
26. Fear hear - blonde (Fair hair)
27. Ear - mix of nitrogen and oxygen (Air)
28. Ear roebucks - exercise at the gym (Aerobics)
29. Duffy cult - not easy (Difficult)
30. Day old chuck - young poultry (not vomit)
31. Bug hut - popular recording (Big Hit)
32. Bun button - been bitten by insect
33. Amejen - Visualise (Imagine)
34. Rissal Crew - Russell Crowe (NZ-born, but raised in Australia, actor)
Steadybears
30th January 2008, 08:14 PM
Oooh gosh better get practising with these before we get there. All for a good laugh!
vijith
30th January 2008, 09:25 PM
nice topic to discuss...............
vijith
30th January 2008, 09:26 PM
nice topic......
vijith
30th January 2008, 09:32 PM
nice topic......
Sam B
30th January 2008, 09:39 PM
It is a nice topic, isn't it vijith
Rusty
30th January 2008, 10:13 PM
[QUOTE=Going OT for a sec, what strikes me as odd is 'Dora the explorer' you get all the mexican pronunciations in the program, but if you buy the magazine you get the Spanish phoentics. For example 'Gracias' would have the c lisped almost into a th sound- Grathias. Whereas the Mexican would be 'Grassias'.[/QUOTE]
Staying OT, but I always assumed this was because it was made in America and used their version of Spanish.
Staying OT, but I always assumed this was because it was made in America and used their version of Spanish.
ourquest
30th January 2008, 11:47 PM
Ourquest has reminded me that although most times when you see wh together then it is the 'f' sound but there are times when it is still a 'w'
Uhh, not exactly. It is an aspirated "w" sort of sound made by putting the lips firmly together and expelling air...actually very different sounding to an english w. Think of it as sounding an english "f" without involving your teeth at all.
Uhh, not exactly. It is an aspirated "w" sort of sound made by putting the lips firmly together and expelling air...actually very different sounding to an english w. Think of it as sounding an english "f" without involving your teeth at all.
IanW99
30th January 2008, 11:59 PM
Uhh, not exactly. It is an aspirated "w" sort of sound made by putting the lips firmly together and expelling air...actually very different sounding to an english w. Think of it as sounding an english "f" without involving your teeth at all.
Well yes, I was interested in commenting on the fact that Whitby being an english word is pronounced wh (as expected by people from the UK) and not f as was being stated in a previous post. It sort of an obvious statement if you are English but maybe not so obvious for others who may not know that it is an english word.
And you had reminded me of this :yes , regardless of how you were describing how maori words should be pronounced.
Unless of course you are explaining that Whitby isn't pronounced how I think it should be in which case :exit
Ian
Well yes, I was interested in commenting on the fact that Whitby being an english word is pronounced wh (as expected by people from the UK) and not f as was being stated in a previous post. It sort of an obvious statement if you are English but maybe not so obvious for others who may not know that it is an english word.
And you had reminded me of this :yes , regardless of how you were describing how maori words should be pronounced.
Unless of course you are explaining that Whitby isn't pronounced how I think it should be in which case :exit
Ian
JWR
31st January 2008, 02:46 AM
a think a lis hus goat a lote tae dae wi li fact lut lur is a strong Scottish infuence in NZ so a'll hay nae bother unerstoning onywan.
except it'll sound like...
e thunk e hus goet e loti tei dei wu lu fect lut lur us e stong Scottush unfluinc en NZ so e'll hey nei bothir unirstonung onywen.
dead easy.
except it'll sound like...
e thunk e hus goet e loti tei dei wu lu fect lut lur us e stong Scottush unfluinc en NZ so e'll hey nei bothir unirstonung onywen.
dead easy.
Pookeko
31st January 2008, 03:51 AM
Some youtube Kiwi-ism and accent study resources: ;)
Lyn of Tawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZe4O7Ct8mo
(particularly handy if you are moving to Tawa :D )
Billy T. James
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sodXJMJAyZw
(also some handy tips there for security checks)
And memorise this Fred Dagg* classic as you will be tested ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X2b2x7Fw4o
(important word: gumboots = wellington boots)
*adapted
(if it weren't adapted you would be hearing "if it weren't for your willys" :laugh )
Lyn of Tawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZe4O7Ct8mo
(particularly handy if you are moving to Tawa :D )
Billy T. James
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sodXJMJAyZw
(also some handy tips there for security checks)
And memorise this Fred Dagg* classic as you will be tested ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X2b2x7Fw4o
(important word: gumboots = wellington boots)
*adapted
(if it weren't adapted you would be hearing "if it weren't for your willys" :laugh )
Kiwi-In-Texas
31st January 2008, 04:35 AM
Wow those bring back memories Pookeko. I Liked Billy. T. James and Fred Dagg the best.
How well I remember the "Gumboot song".
Do they still have the yearly gumboot throwing contest in Taihape?
Suzanne.
How well I remember the "Gumboot song".
Do they still have the yearly gumboot throwing contest in Taihape?
Suzanne.
Rusty
31st January 2008, 04:43 AM
Some youtube Kiwi-ism and accent study resources: ;)
Lyn of Tawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZe4O7Ct8mo
(particularly handy if you are moving to Tawa :D )
Billy T. James
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sodXJMJAyZw
(also some handy tips there for security checks)
And memorise this Fred Dagg* classic as you will be tested ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X2b2x7Fw4o
(important word: gumboots = wellington boots)
*adapted
(if it weren't adapted you would be hearing "if it weren't for your willys" :laugh )
I heard the gumboot song in England, but it was weren't for your wellies by Billy Connolly quite a long time ago when he started. Now, who did it 1st though?
Lyn of Tawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZe4O7Ct8mo
(particularly handy if you are moving to Tawa :D )
Billy T. James
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sodXJMJAyZw
(also some handy tips there for security checks)
And memorise this Fred Dagg* classic as you will be tested ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X2b2x7Fw4o
(important word: gumboots = wellington boots)
*adapted
(if it weren't adapted you would be hearing "if it weren't for your willys" :laugh )
I heard the gumboot song in England, but it was weren't for your wellies by Billy Connolly quite a long time ago when he started. Now, who did it 1st though?
Pookeko
31st January 2008, 05:10 AM
I heard the gumboot song in England, but it was weren't for your wellies by Billy Connolly quite a long time ago when he started. Now, who did it 1st though?
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Dagg) (the source of all knowledge...) it was Billy Connolly (who adapted it from something else).
I like the version in this ad too -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXrcEz2vh0I
- especially when he gets stuck in the sea. =)
Me too Suzanne! Love Billy T & Fred Dagg :D
I don't know about the Taihape gumboot contest, I hope it's still going strong!! :nice1
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Dagg) (the source of all knowledge...) it was Billy Connolly (who adapted it from something else).
I like the version in this ad too -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXrcEz2vh0I
- especially when he gets stuck in the sea. =)
Me too Suzanne! Love Billy T & Fred Dagg :D
I don't know about the Taihape gumboot contest, I hope it's still going strong!! :nice1
CjChris
31st January 2008, 06:52 AM
Since we started telling people we are moving to the Tauranga area, every time we say it, we get a different pronunication from kiwis.
I know the "ng" is not supposed to have a hard "g" sound (as in finger), but it's really difficult for me to swallow that g and say "Tauranga" with the ng pronounced as in "singer."
Two store employees have warned us that people will think we're tourists if we put the hard g in there. :o
It was difficult enough for me to learn to say it "Tew-rongah" (as in sew) because before moving here, I said, "To-rain-gah" like a lot of other people in the States.
Now we hear people say it like "Tow-ongah" (as in cow) and "Tair-ongah" and "Toe-rongah."
Geeze, how complicated! :uhoh
I know the "ng" is not supposed to have a hard "g" sound (as in finger), but it's really difficult for me to swallow that g and say "Tauranga" with the ng pronounced as in "singer."
Two store employees have warned us that people will think we're tourists if we put the hard g in there. :o
It was difficult enough for me to learn to say it "Tew-rongah" (as in sew) because before moving here, I said, "To-rain-gah" like a lot of other people in the States.
Now we hear people say it like "Tow-ongah" (as in cow) and "Tair-ongah" and "Toe-rongah."
Geeze, how complicated! :uhoh
tomo1340
31st January 2008, 08:34 AM
Staying OT, but I always assumed this was because it was made in America and used their version of Spanish.
Yeah, my point was in the magazines it isn't the same as the tv.
Yeah, my point was in the magazines it isn't the same as the tv.
kanatakiwi
31st January 2008, 09:28 AM
Since we started telling people we are moving to the Tauranga area, every time we say it, we get a different pronunication from kiwis.
It was difficult enough for me to learn to say it "Tew-rongah" (as in sew) because before moving here, I said, "To-rain-gah" like a lot of other people in the States.
Now we hear people say it like "Tow-ongah" (as in cow) and "Tair-ongah" and "Toe-rongah."
:uhoh
Hey Chris,
if it helps any, part of the complications with that particular word is that Pakeha see the word as Taur-anga and pronounce it that way (with the kiwi inflection :confused: but Maori pronounce it according to the Maori meaning of the word which is Tau-ranga. So Tow-rongah is closest to Maori pronounciation and Tair-onga is more like the pakeha pronounciation. Emphasis on the Tow.
After you figure that out then you can struggle with where the emphasis goes in the syllables!!:uhoh . For Maori words, a general rule (but not always!) is that the emphasis falls on the first long syllable. Thus its Wai-tang-i, not Wai-tang-i as you will often hear.
I personally find the best way to learn this stuff, is to listen to Maori speakers, or to the TV news announcers who have obviously spent some time to learn the correct pronounciations. Its a terrible thing to say but many pakeha have not bothered to learn, and do a terrible job of mangling the words. I cringe every time I hear someone say Ay-oh-te-ah-roa instead of Ow-te-a-roa. How hard can that be?
But glad to hear you two are settling in and adjusting. and missing what seems to be one hell of a northern winter. !
G
It was difficult enough for me to learn to say it "Tew-rongah" (as in sew) because before moving here, I said, "To-rain-gah" like a lot of other people in the States.
Now we hear people say it like "Tow-ongah" (as in cow) and "Tair-ongah" and "Toe-rongah."
:uhoh
Hey Chris,
if it helps any, part of the complications with that particular word is that Pakeha see the word as Taur-anga and pronounce it that way (with the kiwi inflection :confused: but Maori pronounce it according to the Maori meaning of the word which is Tau-ranga. So Tow-rongah is closest to Maori pronounciation and Tair-onga is more like the pakeha pronounciation. Emphasis on the Tow.
After you figure that out then you can struggle with where the emphasis goes in the syllables!!:uhoh . For Maori words, a general rule (but not always!) is that the emphasis falls on the first long syllable. Thus its Wai-tang-i, not Wai-tang-i as you will often hear.
I personally find the best way to learn this stuff, is to listen to Maori speakers, or to the TV news announcers who have obviously spent some time to learn the correct pronounciations. Its a terrible thing to say but many pakeha have not bothered to learn, and do a terrible job of mangling the words. I cringe every time I hear someone say Ay-oh-te-ah-roa instead of Ow-te-a-roa. How hard can that be?
But glad to hear you two are settling in and adjusting. and missing what seems to be one hell of a northern winter. !
G
jo b
31st January 2008, 09:16 PM
This has always amused me.
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment :roll
Jo
Hey I wasn't getting at anything just that to me it does frustrate some pakeha . I think the issue of land rights maybe fuzzes their overall view. And maybe they think that the moari are trying to capitalise on the pronunciations at the same time. I am not racist just putting somone elses view across. My view is that they have in the last 5-8 years capitalised on the pronunciations. I have been visiting NZ since 1991 as my B-I-L lives there. The focus on pronunciations wasn't as strong as in the last 5-8 years. A case in point is Tauranga, if people tried to translate it exactly as the maoris did years ago wouldn't they have written 'Towrongha'??
The reason I put their comment is that they only said it this month, and it did surprise me, they have just flew back to NZ last week. Their ugga bugga view is certainly not mine.
Someone stated that they only used 13 or so of the letters in the English alphabet but that is exactly what it is, the English alphabet, they didn't have one of their own. How do we know that the missionaries and didn't try to get them to speak in the queens English. I would have guessed that is more of what they would have done, since Britain at the time was 'trying' to rule the world, I don't think the new settlers would have been that accomodating:roll. So since many generations have passed within both Pakeha and maori, who is to know exactly how they are supposed to be prononounced. I am not saying I am right or being racist please don't take it that way, I just like to question how peoples interpretation of the past happens in todays world when many generations have passed. I would have thought the missionaries would have recorded or written down in someway how to pronounce words but I don't think they British were that accomodating in that 'era'.
I have loads of books on the English language and how it evolved, also accents really interest me. The Lancashire and Yorkshire accents elongate their vowels but this was because many people worked in noisy mills about 70 to 150 years, many became hard of hearing due to the noise so they stretched their vowels as though speaking to someone deaf so they could lip read over the noise. I don't think they would have had accents like that, when Wigan was called Coccium and was a Roman Garrison in 200AD. I suppose what I am trying toi say is language and accents 'evolve' over time, so who is to know exactly how they pronounced things in NZ 150-170 years ago.
I am just trying to provoke a disscussion from another viewpoint, (and not doing a good job of it) not in anyway belittle or decry the Maori, I think they have fantastic customs, which generally are actions rather than words, which are more likely to be handed down through the generations.
God I am waffling now so I will shut up and get my kids off to school.
Jo
How can anyone confirm that WH is pronounced F in maori. They didn't have the english language or alphabet, so how could anyone confirm it.
Also my kiwi nieces always say this and also say that the maori were sayiong ugga bubba until the british settlers arrived. Not my opinion just passing on a comment :roll
Jo
Hey I wasn't getting at anything just that to me it does frustrate some pakeha . I think the issue of land rights maybe fuzzes their overall view. And maybe they think that the moari are trying to capitalise on the pronunciations at the same time. I am not racist just putting somone elses view across. My view is that they have in the last 5-8 years capitalised on the pronunciations. I have been visiting NZ since 1991 as my B-I-L lives there. The focus on pronunciations wasn't as strong as in the last 5-8 years. A case in point is Tauranga, if people tried to translate it exactly as the maoris did years ago wouldn't they have written 'Towrongha'??
The reason I put their comment is that they only said it this month, and it did surprise me, they have just flew back to NZ last week. Their ugga bugga view is certainly not mine.
Someone stated that they only used 13 or so of the letters in the English alphabet but that is exactly what it is, the English alphabet, they didn't have one of their own. How do we know that the missionaries and didn't try to get them to speak in the queens English. I would have guessed that is more of what they would have done, since Britain at the time was 'trying' to rule the world, I don't think the new settlers would have been that accomodating:roll. So since many generations have passed within both Pakeha and maori, who is to know exactly how they are supposed to be prononounced. I am not saying I am right or being racist please don't take it that way, I just like to question how peoples interpretation of the past happens in todays world when many generations have passed. I would have thought the missionaries would have recorded or written down in someway how to pronounce words but I don't think they British were that accomodating in that 'era'.
I have loads of books on the English language and how it evolved, also accents really interest me. The Lancashire and Yorkshire accents elongate their vowels but this was because many people worked in noisy mills about 70 to 150 years, many became hard of hearing due to the noise so they stretched their vowels as though speaking to someone deaf so they could lip read over the noise. I don't think they would have had accents like that, when Wigan was called Coccium and was a Roman Garrison in 200AD. I suppose what I am trying toi say is language and accents 'evolve' over time, so who is to know exactly how they pronounced things in NZ 150-170 years ago.
I am just trying to provoke a disscussion from another viewpoint, (and not doing a good job of it) not in anyway belittle or decry the Maori, I think they have fantastic customs, which generally are actions rather than words, which are more likely to be handed down through the generations.
God I am waffling now so I will shut up and get my kids off to school.
Jo
ourquest
31st January 2008, 09:44 PM
Going OT for a sec, what strikes me as odd is 'Dora the explorer' you get all the mexican pronunciations in the program, but if you buy the magazine you get the Spanish phoentics. For example 'Gracias' would have the c lisped almost into a th sound- Grathias. Whereas the Mexican would be 'Grassias'.
Much like the small subtle facial details we must recognise in order to identify people, differences in accent require very small changes in the way people speak to define them as being from a different country or region. The difference in the way the Spanish c is spoken (when followed by an e or i) is a good case in point.
If you were to read a written english description of spanish from Spain vs Chile (for example) the difference in the "c" sound seems extreme as either "th" or "s". Cinco would seem to be pronounced either "thinco" or "sinco" depending on where you are. But since spanish is a "front of the mouth" language and the tongue is immediately behind the top teeth when saying this letter, it is in reality a TINY CHANGE which makes the "th" sound become an "s" sound. It is the difference between the tongue touching the teeth vs just not touching the teeth. And most english people would merely use an "english" th sound, which will never quite match the spanish one because the tongue will be in the wrong place.
Any particular language requires a certain range of tongue and mouth movements to speak it, and because we become habitually acustomed to these movements it is the pronunciation of a foreign language and not the vocabulary which is so difficult to grasp. And this is made all the more difficult because emphasis is placed differently both on syllables and words in a sentence. Even New Zealand english has a different flow in conversation than British english, let alone Maori.
Problem for most adults is they just feel plain silly trying to use different sounds or emphases than they are used to using, and they think everyone will laugh at them. But they should have realised by now that the more accurately a non-english speaker pronounces english the better they sound, and the flipside is true for english speakers attempting a foreign language.
The three "L"s: LISTEN and LEARN and then LOSE those inhibitions and make a concerted effort to pronounce words properly. It's a great challenge, you really will sound better than your mates who are too scared, and you'll gain a surprising bond with, and understanding of the culture whose language you are studying.
Much like the small subtle facial details we must recognise in order to identify people, differences in accent require very small changes in the way people speak to define them as being from a different country or region. The difference in the way the Spanish c is spoken (when followed by an e or i) is a good case in point.
If you were to read a written english description of spanish from Spain vs Chile (for example) the difference in the "c" sound seems extreme as either "th" or "s". Cinco would seem to be pronounced either "thinco" or "sinco" depending on where you are. But since spanish is a "front of the mouth" language and the tongue is immediately behind the top teeth when saying this letter, it is in reality a TINY CHANGE which makes the "th" sound become an "s" sound. It is the difference between the tongue touching the teeth vs just not touching the teeth. And most english people would merely use an "english" th sound, which will never quite match the spanish one because the tongue will be in the wrong place.
Any particular language requires a certain range of tongue and mouth movements to speak it, and because we become habitually acustomed to these movements it is the pronunciation of a foreign language and not the vocabulary which is so difficult to grasp. And this is made all the more difficult because emphasis is placed differently both on syllables and words in a sentence. Even New Zealand english has a different flow in conversation than British english, let alone Maori.
Problem for most adults is they just feel plain silly trying to use different sounds or emphases than they are used to using, and they think everyone will laugh at them. But they should have realised by now that the more accurately a non-english speaker pronounces english the better they sound, and the flipside is true for english speakers attempting a foreign language.
The three "L"s: LISTEN and LEARN and then LOSE those inhibitions and make a concerted effort to pronounce words properly. It's a great challenge, you really will sound better than your mates who are too scared, and you'll gain a surprising bond with, and understanding of the culture whose language you are studying.
dharder
31st January 2008, 10:03 PM
A case in point is Tauranga, if people tried to translate it exactly as the maoris did years ago wouldn't they have written 'Towrongha'??
But the spelling 'Tauranga' would be closer to the phonetic spelling than 'towrangha'. And from what I gather, the missionaries tried to transcribe Maori phonetically.
But you're right, it is probably really difficult to say how exactly these places where pronounced a while ago. And of course just like in every other language, I'd expect there to be regional variations as well. Still, if the evidence there is points towards one pronunciation rather than another, I think that's the one that should be used.
Daniela
But the spelling 'Tauranga' would be closer to the phonetic spelling than 'towrangha'. And from what I gather, the missionaries tried to transcribe Maori phonetically.
But you're right, it is probably really difficult to say how exactly these places where pronounced a while ago. And of course just like in every other language, I'd expect there to be regional variations as well. Still, if the evidence there is points towards one pronunciation rather than another, I think that's the one that should be used.
Daniela
wiki
31st January 2008, 10:56 PM
Like in any language, common usages counts for a lot.
Down here in the south island there are fewer Maori and therefore we tend to be a lot more lax on pronunciation.
I know the theory of Maori pronunciation, but the reality for the majority of the population is different...
I used to live in:
Te Anau - locals say t-ah-now or t-ahn-a but properly it's Tay-aaah-noo with emphasis on aaaah.
Timaru is said Tim-a-roo but should be Te-mar-oo (emphasis on mar)
I was once asked about Too-a-ta-perry by someone in Auckland and it took me ages to work out they meant the place I'd always called Too-a-tap-er-ee
And my favourite: Oamaru.
Commonly said Om-a-roo, but really Oh-arm-a-roo.
I remember there was a big fuss in the early 90s when the news readers started to emphasis traditional Maori pronunciation. A lot of the country said "but that's not how it's said" because for dozens of years colloquial pronunciation had been in the majority.
Then again, I always remember my Maori tutor at college expressing on us how important Maori pronunciation was: she said that it was the same as a Moari person seeing the name Penelope and pronouncing it in Maori Pen-aye-lope-ay and wondering why the girl was at her name being mangled.
Down here in the south island there are fewer Maori and therefore we tend to be a lot more lax on pronunciation.
I know the theory of Maori pronunciation, but the reality for the majority of the population is different...
I used to live in:
Te Anau - locals say t-ah-now or t-ahn-a but properly it's Tay-aaah-noo with emphasis on aaaah.
Timaru is said Tim-a-roo but should be Te-mar-oo (emphasis on mar)
I was once asked about Too-a-ta-perry by someone in Auckland and it took me ages to work out they meant the place I'd always called Too-a-tap-er-ee
And my favourite: Oamaru.
Commonly said Om-a-roo, but really Oh-arm-a-roo.
I remember there was a big fuss in the early 90s when the news readers started to emphasis traditional Maori pronunciation. A lot of the country said "but that's not how it's said" because for dozens of years colloquial pronunciation had been in the majority.
Then again, I always remember my Maori tutor at college expressing on us how important Maori pronunciation was: she said that it was the same as a Moari person seeing the name Penelope and pronouncing it in Maori Pen-aye-lope-ay and wondering why the girl was at her name being mangled.
jo b
31st January 2008, 11:17 PM
Good post Wiki
I think your explanation my help what I trying to say. How do the modern day Maoris know how things should be pronounced when for generations they have been taught by the colonies and they then more than likely corrected them to say things in the 'Queens English'.
As your quote
''Then again, I always remember my Maori tutor at college expressing on us how important Maori pronunciation was: she said that it was the same as a Moari person seeing the name Penelope and pronouncing it in Maori Pen-aye-lope-ay and wondering why the girl was pissed off at her name being mangled.''
How would Maori people know how the accents and emphasis on different letters and combinations of letters should sound when they didn't have the benefit of the English Alphabet before the settlers came. They would have been taught how pronounce things as they sounded to the settlers.
I am not trying to be controversial just trying to look at it logically.
I too remember in the mid 1990's my B-I-L up in arms at being told to pronounce things differentlyafter him living there for 10 years. Could this be just one of the kiwi versions of political correctness.
Jo
I think your explanation my help what I trying to say. How do the modern day Maoris know how things should be pronounced when for generations they have been taught by the colonies and they then more than likely corrected them to say things in the 'Queens English'.
As your quote
''Then again, I always remember my Maori tutor at college expressing on us how important Maori pronunciation was: she said that it was the same as a Moari person seeing the name Penelope and pronouncing it in Maori Pen-aye-lope-ay and wondering why the girl was pissed off at her name being mangled.''
How would Maori people know how the accents and emphasis on different letters and combinations of letters should sound when they didn't have the benefit of the English Alphabet before the settlers came. They would have been taught how pronounce things as they sounded to the settlers.
I am not trying to be controversial just trying to look at it logically.
I too remember in the mid 1990's my B-I-L up in arms at being told to pronounce things differentlyafter him living there for 10 years. Could this be just one of the kiwi versions of political correctness.
Jo
Sam B
31st January 2008, 11:37 PM
But I'm sure Maori speakers know how to pronounce their own language with or without the benefit of the English alphabet don't they? The language never died out and has been passed down orally, regardless of the written version. If they named the places in the first place, then they have a claim on them being pronounced correctly, surely?
jo b
1st February 2008, 01:07 AM
Sam
which language never died out Maori or English. English never died out with the settler but their accents changed so why couldn't maori?? The maori language act was only passed in 1987 pretty recent. And only in 1994 the privy council ruled for the preservation of the maori language.
From Wikipeadia
Since about 1800 the Māori language has had a tumultuous history. It started this period in the position of the predominant language of New Zealand. In the 1860s it became a minority language in the shadow of the English spoken by settlers, missionaries, gold-seekers and traders from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. In the late 19th century the colonial government introduced an English-style school system for all New Zealanders, and from the 1880s the authorities forbade the use of Māori in schools (possibly at the request of Māori leaders, who appreciated the value to their young people of fluent English — see Native Schools). Increasing numbers of Māori people learned English.
----
For me there are too many variables in terms of how language evolves to out right say this is how maori say things. 30 years ago the emphasis wasn't there on the pronunciation.
Jo
which language never died out Maori or English. English never died out with the settler but their accents changed so why couldn't maori?? The maori language act was only passed in 1987 pretty recent. And only in 1994 the privy council ruled for the preservation of the maori language.
From Wikipeadia
Since about 1800 the Māori language has had a tumultuous history. It started this period in the position of the predominant language of New Zealand. In the 1860s it became a minority language in the shadow of the English spoken by settlers, missionaries, gold-seekers and traders from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. In the late 19th century the colonial government introduced an English-style school system for all New Zealanders, and from the 1880s the authorities forbade the use of Māori in schools (possibly at the request of Māori leaders, who appreciated the value to their young people of fluent English — see Native Schools). Increasing numbers of Māori people learned English.
----
For me there are too many variables in terms of how language evolves to out right say this is how maori say things. 30 years ago the emphasis wasn't there on the pronunciation.
Jo
Pookeko
1st February 2008, 04:28 AM
Sam
For me there are too many variables in terms of how language evolves to out right say this is how maori say things. 30 years ago the emphasis wasn't there on the pronunciation.
Jo
I think I kind of see what you're getting at but Maori has always been an oral language which is pretty easy to pronounce once you get the hang of each vowel sound, how to combine them and where to put the emphasis. I don't think you get the extremes of accent/pronunciation that you might do for example with the English language. Plus being a recently written language, you don't get that historical element where there were the few people who could write and they all spelled things differently etc etc. Polynesian languages have similarities which would indicate that they don't change as quickly as you are maybe suggesting.
People native to the different places would know how to pronounce their own place names. :D Though as I said I don't think there is a HUGE difference between regions in NZ, which makes a standardised written language a bit easier I guess.
It's to NZ's credit that there is the emphasis on the correct pronunciation of place names nowadays.
I don't think correct placename pronunciation has anything to do with land right issues except maybe in the minds of the people it is an issue for. Maybe if you are "sick of hearing about Maori issues" the terrible thought of having to pronounce something in a non-English way is one terrible thought too many?? :confused:
For me there are too many variables in terms of how language evolves to out right say this is how maori say things. 30 years ago the emphasis wasn't there on the pronunciation.
Jo
I think I kind of see what you're getting at but Maori has always been an oral language which is pretty easy to pronounce once you get the hang of each vowel sound, how to combine them and where to put the emphasis. I don't think you get the extremes of accent/pronunciation that you might do for example with the English language. Plus being a recently written language, you don't get that historical element where there were the few people who could write and they all spelled things differently etc etc. Polynesian languages have similarities which would indicate that they don't change as quickly as you are maybe suggesting.
People native to the different places would know how to pronounce their own place names. :D Though as I said I don't think there is a HUGE difference between regions in NZ, which makes a standardised written language a bit easier I guess.
It's to NZ's credit that there is the emphasis on the correct pronunciation of place names nowadays.
I don't think correct placename pronunciation has anything to do with land right issues except maybe in the minds of the people it is an issue for. Maybe if you are "sick of hearing about Maori issues" the terrible thought of having to pronounce something in a non-English way is one terrible thought too many?? :confused:
wiki
1st February 2008, 08:03 AM
Maori placename spellings were anoted by the missionaries and first settlers based on what the local Maori told them the name was. They'd say "what is this place?" and then do their best (or easiest) to write that down in an English form. T
The pronunciation changes only came when people got too lazy to remember how to say it exactly as the Maori did - or perhaps they didn't have the same Maori around to repeat it. They certainly couldn't record it on their cell phone and play it back lol. Plus many settlers were from areas of England and Scotland with their own thick accents that would put its own slant on even the best attempted repeating of pronunciation.
And a lot of the time, settlers were told the Maori name and still made up their own English name - hence so many NZ settlements named after UK places or people: Cambridge, Hamilton, Oxford, Christchurch, Dunedin, (which is gallic for Edinburgh) Wellington, (New) Plymouth, Palmerston etc.
Invercargill was named after William Cargill one of the earliest landowners (but in Maori was known as Waihopi - still the name of the main river running through the city) The Inver bit came because they were all patriotic Scots, and the city itself isn't exactly on the coast, rather it's 5miles inland on the estuary.
The guy who named it Invercargill was Thomas Gore Browne who was Governor General at the time - and, incidentally, gave his name to the second largest settlement in Southland: Gore (Southland area in Maori was called Murihiku)
There were a lot fewer Maori living this far south so more English names were applied and remain today.
The pronunciation changes only came when people got too lazy to remember how to say it exactly as the Maori did - or perhaps they didn't have the same Maori around to repeat it. They certainly couldn't record it on their cell phone and play it back lol. Plus many settlers were from areas of England and Scotland with their own thick accents that would put its own slant on even the best attempted repeating of pronunciation.
And a lot of the time, settlers were told the Maori name and still made up their own English name - hence so many NZ settlements named after UK places or people: Cambridge, Hamilton, Oxford, Christchurch, Dunedin, (which is gallic for Edinburgh) Wellington, (New) Plymouth, Palmerston etc.
Invercargill was named after William Cargill one of the earliest landowners (but in Maori was known as Waihopi - still the name of the main river running through the city) The Inver bit came because they were all patriotic Scots, and the city itself isn't exactly on the coast, rather it's 5miles inland on the estuary.
The guy who named it Invercargill was Thomas Gore Browne who was Governor General at the time - and, incidentally, gave his name to the second largest settlement in Southland: Gore (Southland area in Maori was called Murihiku)
There were a lot fewer Maori living this far south so more English names were applied and remain today.
jo b
1st February 2008, 08:15 AM
Hi Wiki,
your post made me smile. I meant record as written down in an explaination.
Wikipeadia (sp) says that there are many variations of pronunciations across NZ because of the mix of Polynesians that contributed to the language.
It also says that many Maori leaders wanted everyone to be taught English, obviously so they can trade better if they understand slang colloquisms etc.
I still have my doubts though that the pronuncians were the same as yesteryear, I am all for preserving language as the Welsh and Scots have brought back teaching their language in schools.
I am glad some of you see what I am trying to say (not very well either:o).
I do tend to be controversial but not in a nasty way.
Jo
your post made me smile. I meant record as written down in an explaination.
Wikipeadia (sp) says that there are many variations of pronunciations across NZ because of the mix of Polynesians that contributed to the language.
It also says that many Maori leaders wanted everyone to be taught English, obviously so they can trade better if they understand slang colloquisms etc.
I still have my doubts though that the pronuncians were the same as yesteryear, I am all for preserving language as the Welsh and Scots have brought back teaching their language in schools.
I am glad some of you see what I am trying to say (not very well either:o).
I do tend to be controversial but not in a nasty way.
Jo
kanatakiwi
1st February 2008, 09:17 AM
Hi Wiki,
Wikipeadia (sp) says that there are many variations of pronunciations across NZ because of the mix of Polynesians that contributed to the language.
I do tend to be controversial but not in a nasty way.
Jo
As you probably know Wikipedia is made up of people like us making contributions to it. They can be totally correct, partly correct or not very correct. Your comment above is one example. Polynesians may well mispronounce or change the pronounciations of Maori words in the same way that English speakers do in modern day usage, but that doesnt make it correct. The Maori pronounciation which has been passed down for (not that many ) generations is still the correct way and all the variations are just that. Variations.
I don't understand why anyone would come here and not want to make the effort to learn the correct pronounciation. I think its great that this emphasis is being placed on learning the correct way to say these words, and I am happy to make the effort.
Wikipeadia (sp) says that there are many variations of pronunciations across NZ because of the mix of Polynesians that contributed to the language.
I do tend to be controversial but not in a nasty way.
Jo
As you probably know Wikipedia is made up of people like us making contributions to it. They can be totally correct, partly correct or not very correct. Your comment above is one example. Polynesians may well mispronounce or change the pronounciations of Maori words in the same way that English speakers do in modern day usage, but that doesnt make it correct. The Maori pronounciation which has been passed down for (not that many ) generations is still the correct way and all the variations are just that. Variations.
I don't understand why anyone would come here and not want to make the effort to learn the correct pronounciation. I think its great that this emphasis is being placed on learning the correct way to say these words, and I am happy to make the effort.
jo b
1st February 2008, 10:17 AM
I never said I wouldn't make the effort...ever please don;t insult me by suggesting that that is what I am saying and I feel quite offended by that statement. And I quite understand how wiki works very well but I think the info about maori language is more right than wrong.
The maori were polynesians who moved to the Island hence the mix of the language, Maori are not natives of NZ and I think 800 years is a fair amount of time for language to evolve;)
This extract from Geocities
A5. It is difficult to answer this question. Linguists generally state that there are 3 major dialect
divisions: Eastern North Island, Western North Island, and South Island Maori (the latter currently
has very few native speakers). Within these divisions there is also regional variation, and within
regions there is tribal variation. The major differences are in pronunciation of words, variation of
vocabulary, and idiom. A fluent speaker of Maori has no problem understanding other dialects of Maori.
The maori were polynesians who moved to the Island hence the mix of the language, Maori are not natives of NZ and I think 800 years is a fair amount of time for language to evolve;)
This extract from Geocities
A5. It is difficult to answer this question. Linguists generally state that there are 3 major dialect
divisions: Eastern North Island, Western North Island, and South Island Maori (the latter currently
has very few native speakers). Within these divisions there is also regional variation, and within
regions there is tribal variation. The major differences are in pronunciation of words, variation of
vocabulary, and idiom. A fluent speaker of Maori has no problem understanding other dialects of Maori.
Pookeko
1st February 2008, 11:49 AM
jo b
It's good that you are interested in the Maori language and I think it will be great for you to pursue your interest once in NZ. Preferably from more than one source since like everything there are different interpretations of things depending on who you speak to. I don't think that the internet is a particularly well-informed source of information on this topic, but I hope there will be better-informed avenues open to you in NZ.
Maori are not native to NZ? Personally I find that a very insulting point of view. How long do your ancestors have to live anywhere before you are native to it? :confused: Is it even a matter of time? Or is it actually that your traditions and culture are connected to a particular place?
800-1000 years yes - closest Polynesian language is Cook Island Maori I believe which is really surprisingly similar considering the geographical divergence 800-1000 years ago - but not the 100-150 years that you were suggesting ;)
I don't think I have much more to contribute to this topic. I think you might have very different views to mine which aren't going to reconcile in a few posts over a forum, but I do take on board your point about evolution of language - although as I said I don't believe that it has changed significantly in 100-150 years.
It's good that you are interested in the Maori language and I think it will be great for you to pursue your interest once in NZ. Preferably from more than one source since like everything there are different interpretations of things depending on who you speak to. I don't think that the internet is a particularly well-informed source of information on this topic, but I hope there will be better-informed avenues open to you in NZ.
Maori are not native to NZ? Personally I find that a very insulting point of view. How long do your ancestors have to live anywhere before you are native to it? :confused: Is it even a matter of time? Or is it actually that your traditions and culture are connected to a particular place?
800-1000 years yes - closest Polynesian language is Cook Island Maori I believe which is really surprisingly similar considering the geographical divergence 800-1000 years ago - but not the 100-150 years that you were suggesting ;)
I don't think I have much more to contribute to this topic. I think you might have very different views to mine which aren't going to reconcile in a few posts over a forum, but I do take on board your point about evolution of language - although as I said I don't believe that it has changed significantly in 100-150 years.
jo b
1st February 2008, 11:56 AM
Okay we shall agree to disagree, I think the English language probably contributed to more change of the maori language than the previous 800-1000 years. Sorry I didn't think I said that maori have only been around 100-150 years, can't remember saying that? In fact I think I pointed out that they have been around for much longer.
You are right the forum doesn't get over the passion I have for language evolvement and the respect I have for it. I may, if ever I go back to NZ research it a tad more and would definately learn it. As I am currently in the UK I only have the internet to get decent resources, so that is the only reference I have and to be honest I quite value the net for that.
Sorry if I offended you re the natives, I was merely trying to point out that the Polynesians all contributed to the maori language due to them migrating over 1000 years ago.
Jo
You are right the forum doesn't get over the passion I have for language evolvement and the respect I have for it. I may, if ever I go back to NZ research it a tad more and would definately learn it. As I am currently in the UK I only have the internet to get decent resources, so that is the only reference I have and to be honest I quite value the net for that.
Sorry if I offended you re the natives, I was merely trying to point out that the Polynesians all contributed to the maori language due to them migrating over 1000 years ago.
Jo
tomo1340
1st February 2008, 12:20 PM
jo b
Maori are not native to NZ? Personally I find that a very insulting point of view. How long do your ancestors have to live anywhere before you are native to it? :confused: Is it even a matter of time? Or is it actually that your traditions and culture are connected to a particular place?
Out of interest would you consider New Zealanders of European decent who have a unique culture that is embedded within New Zealand to be native?
Maori are not native to NZ? Personally I find that a very insulting point of view. How long do your ancestors have to live anywhere before you are native to it? :confused: Is it even a matter of time? Or is it actually that your traditions and culture are connected to a particular place?
Out of interest would you consider New Zealanders of European decent who have a unique culture that is embedded within New Zealand to be native?
Pookeko
1st February 2008, 12:57 PM
Out of interest would you consider New Zealanders of European decent who have a unique culture that is embedded within New Zealand to be native?
Mmm interesting and hard to sum up in a few words :D I don't think I would, but over time yes. I'm not sure about NZ being culturally significantly different. I'd be interested to hear your & others' opinions. I know there are of course differences (to modern Europe - in particular modern Britain since British culture has been the main historically important impact on NZ culture of all European nations) and the mindset is different, but culture & traditions? I'm not sure.
Cheers jo b - I think you said that Maori pronunciation might have been different 100-150 years ago, whereas my thoughts are that they probably aren't very much different.
Mmm interesting and hard to sum up in a few words :D I don't think I would, but over time yes. I'm not sure about NZ being culturally significantly different. I'd be interested to hear your & others' opinions. I know there are of course differences (to modern Europe - in particular modern Britain since British culture has been the main historically important impact on NZ culture of all European nations) and the mindset is different, but culture & traditions? I'm not sure.
Cheers jo b - I think you said that Maori pronunciation might have been different 100-150 years ago, whereas my thoughts are that they probably aren't very much different.
jo b
1st February 2008, 01:08 PM
That is an interesting question.
Let's turn it on it's head and imagine this scenario. In 1960 many Asians and Carribeans migrated to the UK. Fast forward the clock 800 years would they say they are Carribean or Asian or British??
I am of Irish descent, with a maiden Farrell who wouldn't be. The Farrell clan have their own tartan, their own coat of arms, and used to own lots of land but gave it to the King in his support hundreds of years ago. They even have a website!!
I still say to this day I am of Irish descent like many Americans say they are of Italian or Irish descent now. I suppose how many generations this carries on for depends on how close to the culture they are to the country they are living in and their sense of belonging.
My mum told my kids the stories of a Leprichaun, which was told to her mum's mum, her mum, me and then my kids so the Irish theme still holds through the generations. So I still feel a kinship with Ireland.
I am blonde & blue eyed and probably came from Viking stock but that was probably too long ago to even hand down stories, but still appreciate that centuries ago my ancestors were not English or British but I feel British but appreciate that I probably could not trace my roots In England and would probably end up in Ireland (which I did in 1852) or if even possbily trace further back probably Denmark!!
The English Language morphed from Danish, French, German and Native English (who were still in mud huts when they were invaded by Vikings). There are still many words similar, i.e. french Le Jardin is Garden. Just like I believe the Maori language morphed once the English language was introduced.
You know I hated history at school I love it now.
Jo
Let's turn it on it's head and imagine this scenario. In 1960 many Asians and Carribeans migrated to the UK. Fast forward the clock 800 years would they say they are Carribean or Asian or British??
I am of Irish descent, with a maiden Farrell who wouldn't be. The Farrell clan have their own tartan, their own coat of arms, and used to own lots of land but gave it to the King in his support hundreds of years ago. They even have a website!!
I still say to this day I am of Irish descent like many Americans say they are of Italian or Irish descent now. I suppose how many generations this carries on for depends on how close to the culture they are to the country they are living in and their sense of belonging.
My mum told my kids the stories of a Leprichaun, which was told to her mum's mum, her mum, me and then my kids so the Irish theme still holds through the generations. So I still feel a kinship with Ireland.
I am blonde & blue eyed and probably came from Viking stock but that was probably too long ago to even hand down stories, but still appreciate that centuries ago my ancestors were not English or British but I feel British but appreciate that I probably could not trace my roots In England and would probably end up in Ireland (which I did in 1852) or if even possbily trace further back probably Denmark!!
The English Language morphed from Danish, French, German and Native English (who were still in mud huts when they were invaded by Vikings). There are still many words similar, i.e. french Le Jardin is Garden. Just like I believe the Maori language morphed once the English language was introduced.
You know I hated history at school I love it now.
Jo
dharder
1st February 2008, 02:39 PM
I'm still not quite sure I understand why you think the Maori pronunciation was that much different back then from what it is now, Jo.
So 200 years ago, a bunch of missionaries sat down, had a Maori point out a placename, and then wrote it down as they heard it. I know you said that they would write it down as they knew how to spell, but they didn't. They wrote it down as phonetically as they could. That is why you get Tauranga as a spelling and not Towrengha, or whatever the more English way would be to write it.
Given the phonetic spelling and the fact that Maori has always been spoken and never really died out completely (or even almost completely, like Hawaiian for example), I don't understand why it is so difficult to just accept that certain things are pronounced in a certain way? Even within regional variations and small adjustments over time, I don't see how it can be completely different than the spelling suggests it was 200 years ago.
There are certainly influences of the English language on Maori, but on the whole I don't think that they are in any way comparable to the language mish mash that English is.
Daniela
So 200 years ago, a bunch of missionaries sat down, had a Maori point out a placename, and then wrote it down as they heard it. I know you said that they would write it down as they knew how to spell, but they didn't. They wrote it down as phonetically as they could. That is why you get Tauranga as a spelling and not Towrengha, or whatever the more English way would be to write it.
Given the phonetic spelling and the fact that Maori has always been spoken and never really died out completely (or even almost completely, like Hawaiian for example), I don't understand why it is so difficult to just accept that certain things are pronounced in a certain way? Even within regional variations and small adjustments over time, I don't see how it can be completely different than the spelling suggests it was 200 years ago.
There are certainly influences of the English language on Maori, but on the whole I don't think that they are in any way comparable to the language mish mash that English is.
Daniela
kanatakiwi
1st February 2008, 02:49 PM
I never said I wouldn't make the effort...ever please don;t insult me by suggesting that that is what I am saying and I feel quite offended by that statement. And I quite understand how wiki works very well but I think the info about maori language is more right than wrong.
.
Hi Jo B
and just to clarify from my post, I never said you wouldnt make the effort. I said "I don't understand why anyone would come here and not want to make the effort to learn the correct pronounciation", by that I meant anyone who immigrates to NZ. So no need to feel offended. Although I must admit I was offended by your original post about "Ugga Bugga".
Thats the end of my contribution to this discussion :exit
G
.
Hi Jo B
and just to clarify from my post, I never said you wouldnt make the effort. I said "I don't understand why anyone would come here and not want to make the effort to learn the correct pronounciation", by that I meant anyone who immigrates to NZ. So no need to feel offended. Although I must admit I was offended by your original post about "Ugga Bugga".
Thats the end of my contribution to this discussion :exit
G
Sam B
1st February 2008, 09:18 PM
Jo B - What evidence do you have that modern day te reo Maori has been morphed by the English language? I am trying to learn it, and I do not see any evidence of this at all. It contains many non-English consonant and vowel sounds, and does not seem to incorporate any English words. It does not follow English grammar rules either. I can not see any evidence that it has morphed in the way you say?
Rusty
1st February 2008, 10:01 PM
Just a slight change, but I was always curious how this road (in ChCh) was pronounced?
Mairehau Road. - I guessed Mee-ri-how - was I even close?
Mairehau Road. - I guessed Mee-ri-how - was I even close?
benandclare
1st February 2008, 11:11 PM
Just a slight change, but I was always curious how this road (in ChCh) was pronounced?
Mairehau Road. - I guessed Mee-ri-how - was I even close?
More of a "Mary-how" according to Clare's work colleagues :nice1
Mairehau Road. - I guessed Mee-ri-how - was I even close?
More of a "Mary-how" according to Clare's work colleagues :nice1
jo b
2nd February 2008, 12:39 AM
I'm still not quite sure I understand why you think the Maori pronunciation was that much different back then from what it is now, Jo.
So 200 years ago, a bunch of missionaries sat down, had a Maori point out a placename, and then wrote it down as they heard it. I know you said that they would write it down as they knew how to spell, but they didn't. They wrote it down as phonetically as they could. That is why you get Tauranga as a spelling and not Towrengha, or whatever the more English way would be to write it.
Given the phonetic spelling and the fact that Maori has always been spoken and never really died out completely (or even almost completely, like Hawaiian for example), I don't understand why it is so difficult to just accept that certain things are pronounced in a certain way? Even within regional variations and small adjustments over time, I don't see how it can be completely different than the spelling suggests it was 200 years ago.
There are certainly influences of the English language on Maori, but on the whole I don't think that they are in any way comparable to the language mish mash that English is.
Daniela
Hi Daniela,
part of my point of view on the morphing of the language is how typical missionaries and settlers of the that era were. In thier views Brittania ruled the waves, with that said I can imagine the settlers probably couldn't or possibly wouldn't get their mouth around the old maori phonetics so the maoris adjusted their phonetics so the English could understand them, better. And added to that the regional variations of the language that were around at the time the sounds would obviously differ.
In those days when a country made up the commonwealth. They tried to Englify (is that a word??) the country rather than today's view of embracing new cultures.
I don't think I mentioned spelling?? Although mine is atrocious:roll
I hope everyone doesn't think I am saying I wouldn't try to speak Maori I would but I do have reservations on the accuracy of the pronunciation. Just my view point.
Jo
So 200 years ago, a bunch of missionaries sat down, had a Maori point out a placename, and then wrote it down as they heard it. I know you said that they would write it down as they knew how to spell, but they didn't. They wrote it down as phonetically as they could. That is why you get Tauranga as a spelling and not Towrengha, or whatever the more English way would be to write it.
Given the phonetic spelling and the fact that Maori has always been spoken and never really died out completely (or even almost completely, like Hawaiian for example), I don't understand why it is so difficult to just accept that certain things are pronounced in a certain way? Even within regional variations and small adjustments over time, I don't see how it can be completely different than the spelling suggests it was 200 years ago.
There are certainly influences of the English language on Maori, but on the whole I don't think that they are in any way comparable to the language mish mash that English is.
Daniela
Hi Daniela,
part of my point of view on the morphing of the language is how typical missionaries and settlers of the that era were. In thier views Brittania ruled the waves, with that said I can imagine the settlers probably couldn't or possibly wouldn't get their mouth around the old maori phonetics so the maoris adjusted their phonetics so the English could understand them, better. And added to that the regional variations of the language that were around at the time the sounds would obviously differ.
In those days when a country made up the commonwealth. They tried to Englify (is that a word??) the country rather than today's view of embracing new cultures.
I don't think I mentioned spelling?? Although mine is atrocious:roll
I hope everyone doesn't think I am saying I wouldn't try to speak Maori I would but I do have reservations on the accuracy of the pronunciation. Just my view point.
Jo
Jo Jo
2nd February 2008, 01:18 AM
I hope everyone doesn't think I am saying I wouldn't try to speak Maori I would but I do have reservations on the accuracy of the pronunciation. Just my view point.
Jo
Are your reservations because you are worried that you won't be able to pronounce things properly, because you'll be speaking Maori with an English accent, or are you concerned that no one, not even Maori people, know how to pronounce the Maori language properly (like Latin)?
Jo
Are your reservations because you are worried that you won't be able to pronounce things properly, because you'll be speaking Maori with an English accent, or are you concerned that no one, not even Maori people, know how to pronounce the Maori language properly (like Latin)?
Will_2007
2nd February 2008, 01:34 AM
Also, depending on where in the UK the missionaries came from, they would have massively differnt accents, which might have had an effect on the way they interpreted sounds and wrote them down. If a person from Scotland or the north-east had transcribed phonetically some Maori words, a person from London would not necessarily read them out loud as they were intended by the writer, just because of their accent.
The same word in English can be pronounced in many different ways depending on where you are in the country, so why would Maori names be any different?
Just my 2p worth...
Will
The same word in English can be pronounced in many different ways depending on where you are in the country, so why would Maori names be any different?
Just my 2p worth...
Will
kowhai
2nd February 2008, 09:01 AM
The East Coast , Far North, ( NI ), The Ureweras. Many in these small predominately Maori communities have held fast to their language. I knew one elderly Pakeha gent who was fluent in Maori as that was the language of his playmates.He grew up just out of Gisborne.
The Urewera Maori esp, had limited contact with Europeans so I think we can trust their pronunciation ! Very interesting topic.
The Urewera Maori esp, had limited contact with Europeans so I think we can trust their pronunciation ! Very interesting topic.
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