[constablechuck]

I guess the only drawback of ACC is that people don't worry as much about being sued for personal injury, thus safety is not always given the proper attention.

The attitude I grew up with was "hope for the best but prepare for the worst", here in NZ the attitude is often "why prepare for the worst when it's usually not so bad" or "just make do"

That is my take on the "she'll be right attitude", you get used to it after a while.

On a positive note, Kiwi's are some of the most resourceful handy people in the world, probably due to the fact that being so far away from everywhere they historically had to fix things without being able to get proper replacement parts.

[oldest]

The health care system has been good to us, my wife is going on 9 months pregnant and has been well looked after here in NZ, the trips to the doctors and cost of prescriptions have also been very reasonable.



I am not an American, so excuse me for adding to this thread, but just wanted to say congratulations on your imminent arrival!

[Howie]

I just realized that there's no orange cheese in NZ. And no marble cheese either.

[Wahlet]

I just realized that there's no orange cheese in NZ. And no marble cheese either. Cheese is naturally a whitish to yellowish color (except for blue cheese of course!), and the orange comes from an added coloring. So NZ cheese is closer to the way the cow made it (well ok, the cheese man was involved too!)...a good thing in my opinion! :)

[ncalfamilyguy]

Thanks to all this thread is exactly the kind of conversation I was hoping to see....
Stiil reasearching.
1 foot in the water.

[xanctus]

Have been living in US for 10 years and almost 2 years here in NZ...still adjusting...especially with etiquette and behaviour from Kiwis.

[dilanium]

Xanctus- what etiquette and behavior do you mean? How is it different?

[tleventer]

I have to say that I LOVE this thread!!

I currently work in a corporate office of a large (multi-state) retailer. I've been here 8 years now and have 15 days vacation and 2 personal days. Sick leave is really good imho... 2 weeks at full pay I think plus something like 8 weeks (or was it 18) at 80%. Salary is decent, although I'm sure my job would pay better elsewhere. Usually work a 40 hour week with little travel (she says as she just hears she's going to Pa in 3 weeks). Insurance wise, since it's just me, I'm paying $40 in premiums each paycheck. Coverage has gone down a bit in the last year and I fully expect it to go further down in the coming years. Luckily I'm fairly healthy. Our family food budget is pretty high right now even by US standards... mostly because we don't do prepackaged, prepared foods. We eat a lot of meat... a ton of veggies. Even our dogs eat meat and not dry dog food.

That said, I too am a bit concerned over the difference in income needed to enjoy life. I want to be able to afford to have some fun, travel once in a while, and have some savings. Once we move, starting out, we're probably looking at a dual income close to $100K NZ... for 3 adults and 2 young (school age) kids. I just worry that the cost of things might actually put us behind financially and that all the reasons for moving from here to there won't overcome that issue. We don't need a lot to be happy -- we currently live in a small house with an ok sized yard for the kids and dogs, plus a bit for my veggie garden... don't have cable tv... don't do a lot of usual over the top financially things that I see other americans doing (of course I do love horses and hope to one day get back to competing). I dunno... the whole process is exciting and so majorly fascinating... but at the same time... it's really scary too.

BTW, for those who care, I'm just north of Cincinnati, Ohio. Would love to chat with others, especially from the midwest, who are looking at the move or have made the move already.

[JandM]

In NZ, people don't respond to word "Thank you" It is a sad facts

I was interested to see this sig. Can I ask, are you looking for what I think is the normal US response: 'You're welcome'? Only, you'd certainly hardly ever hear that in the UK - we'd tend to think someone saying it was taking the mickey, maybe imitating a film. Our normal response to a 'thank you' is to nod and smile, or to say, 'It's okay,' which is the same reaction we saw most places in NZ.

[Wahlet]

TLeventer, you need to move to Wellington so we can meet up! We really do seem to have a lot in common in our attitude toward life. Oh, and we feed our dog raw too. Definitely the way to go (besides, she would have it no other way) :).

I too am a bit concerned over the difference in income needed to enjoy life. I wouldn't worry about this too much. We don't need a lot to be happy ... don't do a lot of usual over the top financially things that I see other americans doing It sounds like your attitude will get you a long way.

As far as your concern that the higher cost of living in NZ might overcome the reasons you came to live there in the first place, again I wouldn't worry about that. Once you've got jobs lined up, and you have an idea of where you're going to live and what the cost of housing etc. is, run some calculations to reassure yourself.

Over 4 million people live in NZ and there is no mass exodus or major discontent (at least that I'm aware of!), so chances are that someone like you would make it just fine. :)

Once you've made enough posts that you can send personal messages (PM), send me a message. I could tell you some of what I've learned during the last few months of preparing for the move, and I think it would be encouraging to you!

[xanctus]

I was interested to see this sig. Can I ask, are you looking for what I think is the normal US response: 'You're welcome'? Only, you'd certainly hardly ever hear that in the UK - we'd tend to think someone saying it was taking the mickey, maybe imitating a film. Our normal response to a 'thank you' is to nod and smile, or to say, 'It's okay,' which is the same reaction we saw most places in NZ.

Sure, even in my home country people may not say "ur welcome" all the time. However they at least by nodding/smile you/other person show some appreciation. Just like in the UK. Here, people might just storm off without showing any gesture of appreciation. Now again, that is just my own observation, other peeps may think that's cool. I just think, as a western civilization society, people should have known better in matters of etiquette. Also this behaviour is not applicable to everyone.

Classic example of this are in traffic situation. When people dont even care of wave or smile to thank, when someone give him/her a way.

[tigerlily]

Over 4 million people live in NZ and there is no mass exodus or major discontent (at least that I'm aware of!), so chances are that someone like you would make it just fine. :)

There is a mass exodus of people leaving here for Australia. It's proportions are huge and it's featured at least weekly in the paper. Might be the weather, but I think it more likily that it's the money. Cost of living is genuinely high compared to salaries here.

In the example above, 100K earnings- well, that means that take home is much less, becuase of the 39% tax bracket you fall in. IRD webpage has a PAYE calculator so you can see how much you would be taking home. A giant factor is how much you bring over to invest in a home, and and how much your mortgage is. Or how much you pay in rent. Or how much you pay in commuting costs because you need to find a house that's affordable and large enough.

It's been said many times here that someone's view of a perfectly great salary would be in another person's view just barely getting by.

All that being said, I'm glad we're here. My kids love it, and my husband has found a job he likes that pays him well. It took him 2 months to get a job, but part of that was the fact that we came in January when almost nothing is being advertised.

[granger]

I was interested to see this sig. Can I ask, are you looking for what I think is the normal US response: 'You're welcome'? Only, you'd certainly hardly ever hear that in the UK - we'd tend to think someone saying it was taking the mickey, maybe imitating a film.

I often say 'you're welcome' if I'm thanked. I'll need to watch what other people do now.

In the example above, 100K earnings- well, that means that take home is much less, because of the 39% tax bracket you fall in.

To be fair it's a dual income tleventer mentioned and the 39% band kicks in above $60,000 so it may not apply. The 39% band was introduced by the current government. If opinion polls are anything to go by they won't be reelected later this year. Perhaps the 39% band will go with them?

[swissmissdesigner]

NZ-er don't even say "thank you" or they don't say "I appricate it"..
At last my friends and my boyfriend...

[BkyMonster]

Classic example of this are in traffic situation. When people dont even care of wave or smile to thank, when someone give him/her a way.

This may seem odd, but it gets us hopping mad when people try to be polite and give someone the right of way--while breaking the traffic laws.

All too often we see cars come to a 4 way stop and wait through their turn to go while waving other cars through. If the person waving other cars through were to drive out and hit someone in the intersection the person in the intersection would be at fault, not the person who was waiting, waving through and confusing the other drivers. I understand the politeness behind giving someone the right of way, but often (in the US) politeness leads to putting them and yourself in danger. You can't be sure that someone saw you through their windshield and they may not know what you're up to.

[tleventer]

IRD webpage has a PAYE calculator so you can see how much you would be taking home.

Sorry if I'm being dense... IRD??

Classic example of this are in traffic situation. When people dont even care of wave or smile to thank, when someone give him/her a way.

Crud, I see this all the time here. Usually I just yell at my steering wheel. :laugh

TLeventer, you need to move to Wellington so we can meet up! We really do seem to have a lot in common in our attitude toward life. Oh, and we feed our dog raw too. Definitely the way to go (besides, she would have it no other way)

Wahlet! Another raw feeder! :raebanana Will definitely work on getting PM permission! Although unless the jobs dictate at the time, we're looking at the South Island probably more than anywhere. But hey... not like we'd be living in NY compared to CA. :p

[JandM]

http://www.ird.govt.nz/

Inland Revenue is the tax people.

[tleventer]

http://www.ird.govt.nz/

Inland Revenue is the tax people.

Thanks....uh... I think.

Wow... that is NOT anywhere near encouraging. I make a decent living here and as a single person am taxed quite high -- ie: Gross of $65,000 = net (after taxes, insurance premiums and a 3% contribution to my 401(k) that my employer matches) is $43,900. I plugged in the same gross into the PAYE calculator and ... GULP.... $34,900. $9K LESS. And that's if I can find a job that pays the same as what I get here. That's more than a little frightening when I read all these posts about how much more things like gas and groceries are. :eek: :uhoh

Tell me I've misread something or misinterpreted something... PleASE!!

[dilanium]

Hi tleventer- I'm up in cleveland. Hopefully you feed more than just the meat- and give organs and raw bone too, otherwise your dog may develop a vitamin/mineral deficiency (or if you give vitamin supplements).

As for if your calculations are wrong, I hope they are, but doubt it from what I hear- NZ is not a place to move to for financial reasons.

:)

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[granger]

You'll pay $16,620 tax on an income of $65,000 in New Zealand.

https://www.ird.govt.nz/cgi-bin/form.cgi?form=incrates

[Wahlet]

There is a mass exodus of people leaving here for Australia. It's proportions are huge and it's featured at least weekly in the paper. Well that's a bummer for sure for them. But at least there will be more space for the rest of us. Heh heh.

[tleventer]

Hi tleventer- I'm up in cleveland. Hopefully you feed more than just the meat- and give organs and raw bone too, otherwise your dog may develop a vitamin/mineral deficiency (or if you give vitamin supplements).

Oh absolutely!!! The pup probably gets the most variety simply because he eats more, but they both just finished their dinner -- chicken plus 1 egg each. Both very happy critters (7 month old newfoundland pup and a 6 year old aussie cattledog mix). Sometimes they eat better than we do -- the pup gets a mix in the mornings... this morning was lamb. *I* don't even get lamb that much! LOL

You'll pay $16,620 tax on an income of $65,000 in New Zealand.As for if your calculations are wrong, I hope they are, but doubt it from what I hear- NZ is not a place to move to for financial reasons.

Thanks! I was using the tax code ND at first because I didn't know what all the others meant... that's when I came up with the $34,900 on a $65,000 annual gross salary. After looking into the codes, it looked like I should be using an M instead and that changed things considerably. Went from $34,900 to just over $47,500. That's a LOT better. Honestly, when we saw the $34,900... we had thoughts that we may have to scrap the whole idea of emigrating (which because of my unsure-ness I'm not entirely sure how I felt about that... both extremely sad and a bit relieved honestly).

[xanctus]

I understand the politeness behind giving someone the right of way, but often (in the US) politeness leads to putting them and yourself in danger. You can't be sure that someone saw you through their windshield and they may not know what you're up to.

Agreed, again that is just one example of mine. I mean, at my work place, I can literally see all these interesting gestures by many kiwis (not all). I was talking about this with my boss and he kind off agree with all these etiquette things.

I mean, I can go all day long just to list all the bad things that I have experience but that's not worth the time. It just a matter of getting used to it and live with it. But it may test my patience during these adaptation moment.

[Alan]

There is a mass exodus of people leaving here for Australia. It's proportions are huge and it's featured at least weekly in the paper.

Recent news stated the the UK has the highest proportion of brain drain in the world, so it is nothing new and a lot also I believe a lot of this has to do with people having for more access to travel around the world and understand where they are going in far more depth before they get there.

[sweetpea]

As far as your concern that the higher cost of living in NZ might overcome the reasons you came to live there in the first place, again I wouldn't worry about that. ... Over 4 million people live in NZ and there is no mass exodus or major discontent (at least that I'm aware of!), so chances are that someone like you would make it just fine. :)

Wahlet, I'm sorry, but I don't think your post is realistic. As tigerlily said, there is a huge exodus of Kiwis to Australia. Wages here are very low compared to the cost of living, and a lot of people here live a lifestyle that is much lower than the average American's. If you can come into the country with enough money to buy an insulated house with central heat mortgage-free, and if you have the budget to travel overseas every few years, than I think it could be worthwhile to live here for the lifestyle. Otherwise, not so much. There are plenty of places in the US that are just as pretty as NZ, and with better employment opportunities and a better quality of life. Believe me, there are plenty of things I love about NZ, but after being here two years, I am anxious to get back to the comforts, opportunity and diversity of the US.

(BTW - I am not the kind of person who has to have the latest gadget or a swank car. I live fairly simply.)

[Wahlet]

Wahlet, I'm sorry, but I don't think your post is realistic. As tigerlily said, there is a huge exodus of Kiwis to Australia. Tigerlily: There is a mass exodus of people leaving here for Australia. It's proportions are huge and it's featured at least weekly in the paper.
From the Dominion Post: It seems the lure of Australia's hot weather, golden beaches, higher paying jobs and better opportunities remains irresistible to New Zealanders. Statistics New Zealand figures issued yesterday [Feb 21], show 22,500 more citizens left New Zealand for Australia than returned last year - up almost 34 per cent on 2004. It is the highest net loss to Australia since a net 24,600 left in 2001.

Sweetpea & Tigerlily, point well taken, but this works out to only half a percent of the NZ population per year moving to Oz, which doesn't seem in my mind to be a huge exodus. Especially when NZ's population still continues to grow at almost 1% annual population growth rate (according to US CIA fact pages)...

It may only be that our perceptions of a mass exodus are different, and I am of course disadvantaged by being half a world away from what is happening. How do you feel it? Are you observing neighbors and friends moving away? How are the departures affecting the area you live in? What are your personal observations of its effect on the functioning of the country? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[tigerlily]

I can only say that I am glad we came here. I'm doing a master's program here that's not available in the USA. It costs NZ$5,000 per year to be a master's degree student. That's a steal. We will pay a fair amount in taxes this year. But in return we get nearly free healthcare (from my point of view). My kids are getting to grow up outside of the US (priceless).

The person that we are renting our house from just moved overseas to work. Many of the other parents at my children's school have lived overseas (but come back here when they had kids). It's not causing mass angst, but the newspapers do make a big deal of it. I'd say that the lack of rain here is probably causing more problems here than people leaving for Oz.

[barryp]

Tigerlily:
From the Dominion Post:

Sweetpea & Tigerlily, point well taken, but this works out to only half a percent of the NZ population per year moving to Oz, which doesn't seem in my mind to be a huge exodus. Especially when NZ's population still continues to grow at almost 1% annual population growth rate (according to US CIA fact pages)...

It may only be that our perceptions of a mass exodus are different, and I am of course disadvantaged by being half a world away from what is happening. How do you feel it? Are you observing neighbors and friends moving away? How are the departures affecting the area you live in? What are your personal observations of its effect on the functioning of the country? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

NZ has an extremely low unemployment rate, and a tiny working population, making even low amounts of outmigration economically painful. And though there are migrants to Oz in every income bracket and of every skill type, the outmigration is disproportionately among high-wage/high-skill people. (Who in turn have to be replaced by migrants from elsewhere in the world.)

The IT skills shortage is acute and made worse by the drift toward the West Island. I have worked for the past year+ with some top-notch talent; of the 8 that have left, 3 have moved to Australia. We're struggling to replace them; in the Silly Valley I'd have found a hundred technically competent folks in a few days... basing the hiring decision on meshing with the team, career interests, etc. Here, you go for a warm body with some qualifications and evidence of a work ethic - then pray. :(

As for my other, um, Yank adjustments...

I have moved past the sticker shock for most consumer goods and stopped buying those things when I could not get past the price. But Amazon has been a godsend, my source of recent hardback books on quality paper - even with the shipping fees, they're cheaper and better than what's on offer in NZ. I am very grateful for the wonderful library system of Wellington.

I think it was Howie up there who captured my plan for return visits to the USA - stock up on vitamins, nonprescription meds, dog toys, and such at Costco. Along with some CD's that don't cost $35.

I share the great relief at not having my health care tied to employment here, and at having a better work/life balance here. But the loss of net earning power is substantial, and if you move over here without a pile of cash, there will be pain. The median house is completely unaffordable on the median salary, made worse by high mortgage rates... quality rental stock is rare... the official grocery inflation rate was 4.4% last year but 12% is more like it - except for dairy, which was about 50%. All of these negatives have no doubt been discussed extensively on this forum, and they are real. If you're rich already, good on ya; many people here will be glad to relieve you of those riches, and that's just when you buy cheese. :wah

Every day I look out the window over Evans Bay and smile. Then I remember that the Bush/Cheney junta is far away and doesn't care about me at all... and I smile more. (Not to say that we're in a political Utopia in NZ.)

Also, think about the little food items you love - they may not exist here, though there are new wonders to discover. I thought my jones would have diminished after 15 months but I WOULD KILL FOR A GOOD BURRITO RIGHT NOW. Okay, maybe not, but I've adjusted really well overall... yet still feel the absence of the familiar and the fantastic from my part of the USA from time to time.

[Ojai]

Thanks barryp, that's really useful insight! And since I'll be looking for IT work in Wellington, at least the IT shortage will be working in my favor.

[Wahlet]

Thanks BarryP. Now I'm thinking that (given the shortage of trained people that you mention) I could have negotiated for a higher salary on my engineering job offer... Ah, you live, you learn, right?

[Nathan]

NZ has an extremely low unemployment rate, .... the outmigration is disproportionately among high-wage/high-skill people. (Who in turn have to be replaced by migrants from elsewhere in the world.)

The IT skills shortage is acute ...

As for my other, um, Yank adjustments...
.....

Also, think about the little food items you love - they may not exist here, though there are new wonders to discover. .... but I WOULD KILL FOR A GOOD BURRITO RIGHT NOW. Okay, maybe not, but I've adjusted really well overall... yet still feel the absence of the familiar and the fantastic from my part of the USA from time to time.

That's pretty close to the way I see it. I would add that the medical professions are suffering in a very dramatic way. And I can't imagine many physicians who can resist the urge to go get paid very well for what the've worked hard to learn to do. NZ really needs to straighten out the pay problem with doctors and nurses in order to develop a good healthcare system. That stated, I've received excellent service at the clinics here.

And I'll add... We live in an upscale, retirement community. I've met none of our neighbors who don't have children in Oz... except the Brits. Most of the people I talk to have children who are doctors, engineers, ... etc... living in Oz.

The IT shortage.... whew!! Labor just doesn't seem to get it.... or National or any of the others except, maybe, Mr. Peters. NZ suffers from poor understanding of the importance of high-speed broadband to its economy. The dealings with Telecom's monopoly has been far to little and too slow. Dishonesty among the large service providers seems to be the rule rather than the exception. It's a mess!! We can't get DSL in our neighborhood!

Good Mexican food.... We thought we hit the jackpot when a local restaurant, operated by a former S. Cal. resident, advertised Mex night. WRONG!! We got really lame quesadillas. But we did find serrano and jalapeno at the local farmers market.... and subsequently canned 20 pints of goooood salsa. Now, to find some of the other ingredients. (If anyone has a good recipe for smoking jalapenos - to make chipotles - I'd like to have it, as well as a recommendation as to what NZ wood to use.)

Other adjustments.....
I love the long beaches with nobody on them. Rotaries are a mixed bag; I can't decide whether to be happy with the efficiency or fear for my life! I love dealing with competent people in nearly every situation... except the ISP thing. I don't know how to act when someone starts pumping gasoline for me... and is glad to do it. I miss turtles, and squirrels, and peepers in the spring. Cicadas sing backwards here... not good or bad, just different. I really miss my friends who play old-time mountain music. I love the long growing season here in BoP.

Cheers, :cheers

Nathan

[clg]

Wanted to point towards a couple of papers on inbound/outbound migrants:

http://www.population.govt.nz/myth-busters/BrainDrain.htm
and
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4407251a24136.html

NZ tends to get more highly educated migrants than leave so it is in effect a net improvement is the quick summary of those two articles. I have seen various presentations saying roughly similar things. This is a very politically sensitive issue so it gets tossed around a lot.

Turnover is a problem here, as it is in OZ. The very low unemployment rate and ease of moving between countries mean people jump around quite a bit. It does take some getting used to and you just have to accept that it is different than the US. It is very easy for any good people here to get jobs so you have to manage quite differently. Things I used to get very annoyed about I better understand now.

It does all seem quite odd and it is certainly different but I do have to say I understand it more now. Just hard to explain!

[Bruckner]

Good Mexican food.... We thought we hit the jackpot when a local restaurant, operated by a former S. Cal. resident, advertised Mex night. WRONG!! We got really lame quesadillas. But we did find serrano and jalapeno at the local farmers market.... and subsequently canned 20 pints of goooood salsa. Now, to find some of the other ingredients. (If anyone has a good recipe for smoking jalapenos - to make chipotles - I'd like to have it, as well as a recommendation as to what NZ wood to use.)
Nathan

Lucky you to find serrano and jalapenos! I have yet to find either one and have check numerous supermarkets and farmers markets. No tomatillos either. I passed a tiny Mexican goods store near Wellington and I may stop in to see what they have. Have you been able to find any good queso?

Emily

[barryp]

Moore Wilson Fresh has fresh peppers from time to time, but the supply is quite sporadic. We grew our own from seed this year - big pile of serranos in the kitchen right now - and that solution should be reliable in the sunniest and warmest parts of the country.

You can buy dried peppers, canned peppers, and all manner of salsas from Mexico by mail; there's an importer in Christchurch. Super fast delivery and low shipping charges. Yum.

[Howie]

The thing that bothers me most about Kiwiland (today): Kiwi's say orientated instead of oriented.

[Wahlet]

The thing that bothers me most about Kiwiland (today): Kiwi's say orientated instead of oriented. Does it make you feel disorientated? :laugh :exit

[ncalfamilyguy]

Sure, even in my home country people may not say "ur welcome" all the time. However they at least by nodding/smile you/other person show some appreciation. Just like in the UK. Here, people might just storm off without showing any gesture of appreciation. Now again, that is just my own observation, other peeps may think that's cool. I just think, as a western civilization society, people should have known better in matters of etiquette. Also this behaviour is not applicable to everyone.

Classic example of this are in traffic situation. When people dont even care of wave or smile to thank, when someone give him/her a way.

I must admit yesterday on a very busy stretch of on/off ramps to an even busier freeway (highway/expressway) an elderly driver let me merge into his lane to exit, I raised my arm out the window in "thanks", and surprisingly he raised his arm back in a "your welcome". Such a rarity in the bay area (SF CA) I almost wanted him to pull over and thank him again!

[spot]

Regarding etiquette:

You have to be very aggressive to get into traffic because no one will voluntarily let you in. When we have waved a thank you to another car for some reason they just look at us oddly, like we flipped them off or something.

We make a point now to be extra courteous (not anything against the road rules) just so other people might get a clue. We let other cars into traffic, drive a reasonable speed and let people cross the street at cross walks. For some reason these are all odd behaviors here.

Also, when someone sneezes - no one says Bless You or Gesundheit. I've actually stopped saying it because it feels so out of place when I do.

[kowhai]

Hi. Im a Kiwi and I wave people into traffic , people wave me into traffic, we all wave and smile at each other. Very friendly ,polite and civil. I always say " bless you " when people sneeze and yep, I get blessed quite a number of times each day during the hay fever season - often by strangers , who Im fairly certain are Kiwis.
Perhaps its simply an Auckland issue you're dealing with here? Large city phenomenon ?

[urban78]

Hi. Im a Kiwi and I wave people into traffic , people wave me into traffic, we all wave and smile at each other. Very friendly ,polite and civil. I always say " bless you " when people sneeze and yep, I get blessed quite a number of times each day during the hay fever season - often by strangers , who Im fairly certain are Kiwis.
Perhaps its simply an Auckland issue you're dealing with here? Large city phenomenon ?

That's what I do and also my experience when driving :yes

I live in Auckland though, so I guess it depends on the people (there are rude ones everywhere :laugh ) :)

[JandM]

My two visits to NZ have both been Auckland based, and similarly to Urban, I didn't meet any discourtesy - on the contrary.

[Howie]

Also, when someone sneezes - no one says Bless You or Gesundheit. I've actually stopped saying it because it feels so out of place when I do.

This is so true. Canadians are also not into blessing others, particularly strangers, so I actually feel more at home with the silence following a sneeze here. When I lived in the States, I actually started to get quite irritated when 10 strangers would bless me every time I sneezed on the subway.:laugh

[kanatakiwi]

The thing that bothers me most about Kiwiland (today): Kiwi's say orientated instead of oriented.

Sadly orientated is ingratiating itself into the english language all over the planet. Its such an annoying word. Makes me want to ask the people if they will transportating once they finish orientating.

[kanatakiwi]

All too often we see cars come to a 4 way stop and wait through their turn to go while waving other cars through. If the person waving other cars through were to drive out and hit someone in the intersection the person in the intersection would be at fault, not the person who was waiting, waving through and confusing the other drivers. I understand the politeness behind giving someone the right of way, but often (in the US) politeness leads to putting them and yourself in danger. You can't be sure that someone saw you through their windshield and they may not know what you're up to.

no sense talking to kiwis about 4 way stops, they think its madness. Kiwis who have visited me in North America just shake their head in amazement that people would actually take turns and wait their turn to go through an intersection. Would never work in NZ they mutter.

[dharder]

Sadly orientated is ingratiating itself into the english language all over the planet. Its such an annoying word. Makes me want to ask the people if they will transportating once they finish orientating.


I thought either or was fine to use, hadn't put that one down to nationality rather personal preference.

Daniela

[JandM]

Me, too, Daniela.

[Ojai]

Ok, we went on vacation, err...holiday last weekend, as our flat wasn't ready yet and we didn't want to sit in a hotel room anymore.

This is such a fantastic country! Welly to Wanganui. Shortrate stuffed up our reservations, so we puttered up to Ohakune. From there to Rotorua and back, then down SR back to Welly. Fantastic.

Oh fellow Americans, one note. My wife mentioned as we drove back, "I don't think I've ever had such a relaxing vacation, I can't put my finger on why, but I haven't." I replied, "We didn't go shopping even once."

It makes such a difference.

[Jo Jo]

Sadly orientated is ingratiating itself into the english language all over the planet. Its such an annoying word. Makes me want to ask the people if they will transportating once they finish orientating.

It's a nationality thing - both forms are correct, and are interchangeable, in British English.

[Mrs Pony]

ok so it took me a few hours to read all of this (at work) and now I can't remember all that I wanted to say... so it should be short...:o

Health Insurance in the US - It can be very good...if you pay enough for it and depending on what you are using it for. When I was younger and on my parents insurance I had to have a $100,000 surgery and Insurance covered everything. A few years ago, no insurance, I had to pay just over $500 to be wrongly diagnosed by an ER DR. We are under my OH's insurance and pay about $120 every pay period (2 weeks) which gives us a $25 copay for DR and Specialist visits and $100 for the ER. If we had used my company it would be $25, $50 and $200 but MAYBE a bit less coming from the pay.

Vacation/Holiday Pay - I've been with my current company for 3 years in Oct. I receive 10 Vacation days and 5 sick days. We have to have 40 hours a week and over time is frowned upon. The reason people stay here is that they give us 4 "gift" days that we get and use during Christmas week or New Years week. With some companies if you use more days then you have earned and leave the company, you will owe the company money (found this out the hard way)

Food - I liked the milk and eggs much better in NZ, they were fresher and didn't have soo much crap in them. I thought that the cows looked smaller there and OH said "yea they don't pump them up like in the US" I can deal with missing some snacks since I discovered TimTam!

Pay - OH made $16NZ as a temp when he was there... which is about $12US... I make $12.50 here and I survive just fine...thank God I don't have car payments (still have 1st car that the parents got for me) otherwise I'd be in trouble! I think that we will be ok in NZ, we don't have a big place now and don't have much debt so I think we will be ok.

[victoria24]

on the healthcare front.. when i was in florida in april, i had to call a doctor as was feeling pretty ill on our return flight day. couldnt believe it when he said that i need to be scanned at ER as they need to identify the problem to have a hope of curing it. In the UK you get given some tablets and told to come back in 2 weeks if it hasnt improved!! and lets be honest, the nhs isnt really free when you work out the taxation cost from your wages.

[ortiz34]

I lived in New Zealand for most of 2007 and the memory is still fresh. I think I will be going back in 2009 from my current job. I got my job right out of school, so I never had to deal with the 2 week vacation in the US, I guess I dodged a bullet. I am now working in Switzerland and we have 5 weeks off...plus 6 days off around the holidays in december. Im not sure if I want to give this up :=)

Here is my take on the differences:

Health Care: I was very impressed with my trip to the doctor in Christchurch. I was inspected by a doctor for an infection that I got in NZ. He treated me for it and prescribed medicine and the whole thing was like $150 which I thought was really cheap. I also had health insurance through my work, so I got a part of it back. Even so, 150 bucks for that treatment is not unreasonable. However, I had work colleagues who were having problems with their hips or certain non life threatening conditions and they were on waiting lists for years until they could be operated on.....so there is one major drawback of NZ. In the US and Switzerland, with insurance, you dont need to wait for such operations.

Car Insurance: Extremely cheap. I had a quote on a 6000 dollar car and it came out to be 140 dollars for the entire year. From what I understant, an expensive car wouldnt have cost a whole lot more. Personal liabilty is not an issue here. If you harm somebody accidentaly, you cant be sued...the government pays for the victims accident costs....this is huge and it keeps the insurance costs down.

Costs of Goods; It is much, much higher and the selection is much lower. You have the choice of buying cheap quality stuff that likely will not last long inexpensively, or buy designer stuff for an exhorbinant fee. There is not really an in-between like the US has. I find that prices in Switzerland are also very expensive but its a lot more easier and cheaper to fly to the US to shop periodically than it is in New Zealand. Also with shipping getting more and more expensive, it is hard to import stuff.

[swissmissdesigner]

I find that prices in Switzerland are also very expensive but its a lot more easier and cheaper to fly to the US to shop periodically than it is in New Zealand. Also with shipping getting more and more expensive, it is hard to import stuff.[/QUOTE]

And he salaries are much higher in Switzerland otherwise you would not working there...right?

[Ana&Steve]

Just read through this whole thing, awesome thread!
Nice to hear some new perspectives, and to confirm some old suspicions:D
Ana

[constablechuck]

NZ has a lot going for it, however I think most Americans would find themselves frustrated with the justice system here should they ever be the victim of a crime or be seriously injured due to someone elses negligence.

The system in NZ generally focuses on the needs of the offender and the victim is for the most part irrelevant, with ACC and the weak criminal justice system personal responsibility is not big here.

[buraian-kun]

As a U.S. American, I'd just like to say....

http://clipmarks.com/image_cache/axelsenzon/512/50F7F5A2-0327-411F-A77E-E458049ADAFD.jpg

[akp713]

Yes the criminal justice system in this country is really lacking. They need significantly longer, harsher sentences for some of the awful crimes that are committed. That man who drove his car through an innocent crowd of people and killed teenage girls got less than 20 years in jail. But then that gun-shop owner who shot a machete-wielding attacker was charged with assault! They even talked about eliminating the right to remain silent recently. The march by Asians demanding more police protection and harsher sentencing was probably just the beginning of a movement.

I don't want to impose my American views on NZ society. In the US I'm pro-death penalty, pro-gun, but I wouldn't be in favour of either in NZ because this is a different society with different standards. I just think that they need to be tougher on criminals and more respectful of law-abiding people's right to self-defence.

[nate]

I grew up in the U.S. and just moved over to Wellington from Denver a month ago. Yes, goods are much more expensive here. Selection is much smaller, too. I second the observation about the grocery store, there just isn't as much to choose from as in the U.S. However, tons of shops are having big sales, and my new kiwi friends tell me that you can always find stuff on sale, especially with the economy taking a slight downturn lately. The "recession" here doesn't seem to be anywhere near as serious as the U.S., though.

There are only 7 or 8 banks here. They all offer basically the same thing, and they all have a RIDICULOUS number of fees compared to U.S. banks. However, you get great rates of return on savings accounts. I just set up a checking account last week, and my bank linked a savings account with an 8.4% annual return - unheard of in the U.S. for a basic savings account.

Take a close look at the tax rates. They have an incremental system here - if your salary is in the 39% bracket, for instance, then you're actually taxed at less than 39%. There's a great explanation of it here:

http://www.ird.govt.nz/how-to/taxrates-codes/itaxsalaryandwage-incometaxrates.html

I was miffed about the tax rates being higher until I figured this out. With the cost of health care in the U.S. vs. free health care here, I actually have more take-home pay here in NZ at the same salary.

About vacation - 20 days is the standard, plus 11 holidays, so that's just over 6 weeks total. MUCH better than the U.S., it was a major factor in my decision to move over.

You heard right about the work hours. I was told in my first interview that people generally work 37-40 hours. Definitely nothing like the rat race in the U.S. EVERYONE cuts out at 4 on Fridays for drinks, and I haven't heard of anyone who works the type of hours that seem to be expected in the U.S. for virtually any salaried position.

:: nate ::

[Mrs Pony]

Nate,

Thanks for the post! It's nice to know that even though the tax is higher, we'll still be taking home more since we wouldn't have to deal with insurance!

Does anyone know if a married couple would get taxes together or separate?

[BkyMonster]

I think you are taxed individually. That is if you make say 80k together but only 40k each you are each taxed on the 40k not on the 80k that the household brings in.

[thewoodies]

Hi just found this thread! RE Hols - why not train to be a teacher? We dont earn alot but we have fantastic hols!!!::D :laugh

[JoHnH]

Just to clarify, if it's needed: (I find the confusion over progressive tax rates a bit puzzling - it's a simple idea and widely used around the world, I believe.)
On the IRD example referred to above by Nate, the person on $45000 seems to pay 21.6 % tax on their total income.
The person on $65000 seems to pay 25.6 % tax on total income.
A person on $80000 would I believe pay 28.0 % of income.
It is indeed progressive, but you could hardly say steeply so.

[sbinder]

I actually find the tax here quite frustrating. Don't get me wrong - it is very simple compared to the hoops the IRS makes you jump through, and free-ish health care is also nice (I think; knock on wood, I haven't had to make use of it yet!). However, my income tax rate more than doubled when I moved here, and I still have to pay a little out of pocket each month for supplemental health insurance - it covers the copays and eye/dental visits, which I believe are not covered by ACC (national health care). With a simple "progressive" tax, you get few tax credits or deductions (none in my case since I am neither married nor with dependents and above the 39% tax bracket) and these really can make a difference. I am taking home far less now, and when I do go to the store, I get dinged a third more on GST (even than Seattle, which has relatively high sales tax). Don't get me wrong - there are many things I love about New Zealand, but the tax system is not one of them!

[GreenMeansGo]

very helpful thread, and thanks Nate, for the clarification on the tax system.

[barryp]

The progressive income tax regimen in NZ is conceptually identical to that used by the IRS, complete with family assistance programmes for low-income-earners.

IMO there are only two fundamental differences with the USA:
(1) There is a mandatory ACC levy on incomes, and it's actually a regressive tax like Medicare is. ACC is not part of the health care system per se, rather, it's a disability insurance scheme with universal coverage. It applies to everyone physically in NZ, even tourists.
(2) There is no equivalent to the USA mortgage interest deduction, which is the main way the bulk of US taxpayers lower their income tax bills.

I am the only Yank I know here who's doing better financially now than when living in the USA. (Guess I'll have to add Nate to that short list!) Salaries in NZ are generally lower for equivalent positions, taxes are higher, and material cost of living is far higher for most goods. There are some pretty significant financial *risk reductions*, especially through the health care system - your coverage does not depend on employment status, assuming you are a resident/citizen, so you won't be ruined financially by a health crisis as you can be in the USA. That alone makes me sleep a lot better at night, despite knowing limitations of the NZ health care system.

[BlueDevil]

barryp and sbinder are right; the tax system is progressive like the US but overall it is much worse for most Americans.

ACC tax, GST 12.5%, no "above the line" income tax deductions, no exemptions, and for most people no credits. A number of kiwis use a loophole to run expenses through a corporation structure however.

Health insurance is built in to the tax system, but its a mixed bag; you pay as much for health care in terms of copays (GP and pharmacy) as you would if you had health insurance in the US. You have a choice of doctors, but if you need surgery - watch out. The waiting list for coronary bypass can be as long as 40-60 days (in the US this would usually be done withing 2-7 days of scheduling). Hip/knee/shoulder surgeries can be 6 months+ and elective abdominal surgeries 3-6 months. The care is good, but its rationed. Imaging such as MRI or CT scans which would be same day or within a few days in the US also take weeks/months - not good if you have possibly have a tumor growing. A number of cutting edge (and some not cutting edge) drugs are not available. In most cases there are reasonable substitutes, but sometimes with more side effects and in the cases of some "fancy" drugs for autoimmune conditions or cancers, just not available.

Comparing the two health systems, the US system is better if you are very poor (medicaid is often quite good coverage) or have "good" coverage with an employer in terms of choice/cost/time of service/range of options. The main caveat in the US is you are screwed if you develop a condition that causes you to lose that job.

The kiwi health system is much better for the small business owner, working poor and middle class in general and (drum roll please) it is sustainable, which fundamentally the US system is not. The kiwis have a sense of social compact that they are rationing a finite resource and the US has not

Add to this the cost of electronics that (I at least) take for granted (try buying a cell phone/computer/ipod in New Zealand), books, clothes and other things that cost a lot when you live in an relatively small island in the Pacific Ocean. On top of that salaries are lower for similar work and mortgages and housing prices are very high compared to many (not all) areas of the US.

When you add all of this up, very, very few Americans will at the bottom line have more take home purchasing power at the end of the day. Its is a little sad, but at the same time I really, really like it here.

All those things above have tradeoffs that make New Zealand a fun and rewarding place to live in terms of lifestyle, a slightly less materialistic focus and a slightly slower pace.

[Oregonkiwi]

My husband has just returned from his first trip back to America since we moved here, and posted a few NZ/US comparisons on his blog:
http://spatulaforum.blogspot.com/2008/08/return-what-i-missed-and-didnt-about-us.html

[yuutamichael]

I'm an American who has been living in New Zealand off and on for 6 years and (hopefully) is just coming to the end of the Residency process (we've been told we'll have a decision by the end of the week). If you're willing to listen it might be a little cathartic for me to share my opinions. Warning, this is quite a long rant so I separated things out by topic.

Food Prices Things are more expensive here only if you don't know how New Zealanders shop. Most New Zealanders will buy things on sale and cook a lot more from scratch then Americans do. So the amount you're paying for food goes down drastically when you're preparing things rather than buying them premade at the store. We eat out less and we rarely eat at incredibly unhealthy fast food or expensive restaurants. Also, the food in the markets is of such a higher quality it's like shopping at Whole Foods all the time. But yes, cheese is really expensive right now.

Law System As for the law system, which people were complaining about, it's obviously working fairly well as New Zealand ranks much much much lower in any type of crime imaginable. The tradeoff is that the system is focused on rehabilitation not the revenge satisfying punishment of the states. Violent crime in New Zealand is actually going down, although you wouldn't know it from the amount it's reported in the media.

No Fault Society ACC is a godsend and I wish America would adopt something similar. Living in a no fault society changes how you interact with everyone you meet for the better. Also you don't worry about being out of work due to injury. We band together here to take care of each other and it works really well.

Media I love local New Zealand TV a lot, although it makes some glaring mistakes sometimes (how did they pass up Flight of the Conchords?) Television and humour here is unique to the country and helps create national identity. That said, newspaper reporting is atrocious. Crime is reported and sensationalized in New Zealand to a degree that is completely out of proportion to how infrequently it occurs compared to other OECD nations.

Product Selection If you want to see cheaper products and more selection then look towards why New Zealand doesn't have a free trade agreement with the United States. The United States repeatedly refuses to sign a free trade agreement with New Zealand because we won't let nuclear submarines dock in our harbours. If the next American administration is willing to negotiate a free trade deal you'll see more selection and cheaper prices in the New Zealand stores. Part of this has been resolved with the government's free trade agreement signed with China, so look to have a flood of cheap Chinese goods coming into the country.

Health Care Amazing compared to the States. If I'm sick I can actually afford to go to the doctor. And because New Zealand acts as a collective when purchasing pharmaceuticals I can actually afford prescriptions when I need them. Now that we're on our way to residency we checked out how much extra health insurance would cost and it's cheap! For about $1200 a year we can get the works for both of us. So if your one of the people that complains about the wait times with social health care systems (I'm not) there's an inexpensive option to get even better health care.

Wages & Cost of Living We don't make a whole lot of money for Aucklanders. My partner and I probably only make NZ$90,000 p.a. total here, both of us working full time. We get by fine even though we're really picky about the kind of places we rent. We've got a cute little 2001 Honda Fit that we bought at Turners Auctions. We don't have the flashest TV or computer like we would in the States but we have more then enough money to travel overseas and take road trips here in New Zealand.

Complaints Not many. I love it here. I fell in love with Aotearoa the first time I came and hitchhiked around in 2002. This country is beautiful beyond measure and the people (particularly outside of Auckland) are the nicest I've ever met. If I were forced to complain I'd say that Aucklanders are a bit insular and aren't open to new friendships past the people they've known since high school. That's pretty different everywhere else in the country though.

I guess, sure, it'd be nice if there was an Ikea here. I agree with one sentiment that stuff seems to be either really poor quality or really high quality and not much in between. Decent competition in some areas is sorely lacking, most notable in mobile phones, Vodafone & Telecom have a duopoly that desperately needs to be broken either by competition or government regulation. But this also being here has taught me how much we as Americans waste on junk. I've re-evaluated my entire life being here and it's much better now.

Final Thought My last message would be that Aotearoa is not for everyone, and even if you've taken the steps to read this far it's still somewhat likely not for you. You'll need to get past a lot of ingrained beliefs, customs and expectations that as an American are really hard to move beyond. New Zealand is a multicultural society (racists need not apply), with a lower priority on material wealth, career advancement and money. It's not a perfect place but if you're going to come live here long term then you should be willing to adjust a great deal to the way of life here.

[jojojo]

yuutamichael... great post!

I'm not an American so no comments on American's way of life or standard of living. Just thought that your post is very comprehensive, covering different aspect of life in NZ. :clap

[nate]

Thanks for the post, yuutamichael. Very informative.

:: nate ::

[JandM]

yuutamichael... great post!

I'm not an American so no comments on American's way of life or standard of living. Just thought that your post is very comprehensive, covering different aspect of life in NZ. :clapI agree.

[sweetpea]

Food Prices Things are more expensive here only if you don't know how New Zealanders shop.... Also, the food in the markets is of such a higher quality it's like shopping at Whole Foods all the time.

Food is more expensive here, whether you buy things on sale and cook from scratch or not. (I've lived with NZ'ers, and even shopping/cooking the Kiwi way, food is still not cheap.) It might be more fair to say that food has been ridiculously underpriced in the US.

I think you're setting up people for disappointment if they come here thinking it's like shopping at Whole Foods the whole time. Red meat and milk come from animals raised on pasture rather than on feedlots, so that is one advantage (a huge one, I think). That said, I'm not seeing that the quality, variety or wholesomeness of anything else is at Whole Foods' level. Except maybe Vogel's bread. And that's one brand.

Health Care Amazing compared to the States.

Could not agree less. Absolutely NZ gets a thumbs up for accessibility on the medical front (excluding dentistry and optometry). Quality, well, I feel much more comfortable getting care in the US, where protocols are more up-to-date and standards are higher. Pharmac's limited formulary can be a good thing and a bad thing. If you develop cancer, God forbid, a fair number of drugs are not available in New Zealand (and as a patient here, you may not be told of them), so you may find yourself heading overseas to get treatment, and you better hope that you can afford to pay for that out of pocket. If you have an ongoing condition and come here from the US, you might find that the drug you've been taking is not available here, and neither is anything else that works. Bummer.

Since many Americans come here for the "lifestyle," rather than the culture or any increased earning potential, I think it is helpful to explore, without any romanticism, some of the factors affecting lifestyle from an American perspective.

Anyway, variety is the spice of life. It's always interesting to hear thoughtful people talk about New Zealand.

[yuutamichael]

Food is more expensive here, whether you buy things on sale and cook from scratch or not. (I've lived with NZ'ers, and even shopping/cooking the Kiwi way, food is still not cheap.) It might be more fair to say that food has been ridiculously underpriced in the US.

I think you've hit on it there. The US has ridiculously under priced food. I think one thing that I should have communicated is that NZers also prepare different recipes than what we make in the states also. Local recipes make use of local and cheaper items than if you try to make burritos or some other favorite American recipe. I've found the quality of produce to be much higher than what we had at the average grocery store in the states. Carrots are huge and delicious here. Tomatoes generally have flavor whereas in the States they have practically none. Can you eat anything, anytime of year for cheap? No, but that's part of eating in the season and locally and I prefer it. In Japan all food is very seasonal, it marks the passage of the year, New Zealand has a bit of that sense to it and I like it. Also there are a lot of locally made, not too expenisve, quality organic brands here. Just to name two more: Hubbards Cereals and Charlies Juices.

Could not agree less. Absolutely NZ gets a thumbs up for accessibility on the medical front (excluding dentistry and optometry). Quality, well, I feel much more comfortable getting care in the US, where protocols are more up-to-date and standards are higher. Pharmac's limited formulary can be a good thing and a bad thing. If you develop cancer, God forbid, a fair number of drugs are not available in New Zealand (and as a patient here, you may not be told of them), so you may find yourself heading overseas to get treatment, and you better hope that you can afford to pay for that out of pocket. If you have an ongoing condition and come here from the US, you might find that the drug you've been taking is not available here, and neither is anything else that works. Bummer.

I'm not saying that the New Zealand Health Care system is without fault, I'd encourage everyone to get supplementary insurance if you can afford it. I'm not sure what your experience was with a medication available in the States but not here but my partner and I actually do have some experience with just that. She had been taking some medication since childhood to treat depression. When she got to New Zealand the medication was available but quite expensive. After she spoke to her doctor about it one of the reasons that it was so expensive was because it definitely shouldn't be taken long term as you quickly become desensitized to it, it's not really that good for you and it's mostly used to quit smoking. The doctor said that they see this a lot where Americans are prescribed short term drugs for long period times. So she weaned herself off of it and it much healthier and happier because of it.

I'm willing to defend universal access as being one of the key elements to a good health care system. When I was in the States I still would not have had access to the cancer treatments that you mentioned because I wouldn't have had access to any health care whatsoever. People who argue about queues being long don't realize for many Americans the queues for treatment is infinitely long because they can't afford it. Even having health insurance doesn't make things easy in the States. After my mom got cancer her premium went up so high that it was effectively canceled. The United States system is even bad for workers who have company provided health insurance because it means your less likely to leave a job because the health of your family is tied to it. That said, I'm not arguing that new cancer treatments shouldn't be made available. They absolutely should if they work and the health care system needs to work hard to make them available.

[mmcguire2020]

Concerning vacation, sick time off. My current job in the states is completely unskilled and I get 10 hours vacation time per month and 9 sick hours per month. I can also take a leave of absence unpaid up to six months in any two year period. I'm not sure what I'm going to do in NZ. I'm hoping for something in hospitality or office work. I will be happy with just two weeks off per year paid.:cheers

[DMcG]

The statutory minimum by law is four weeks paid holiday a year plus the 11 public holidays. Some companies enforce a shutdown over Christmas which uses up three days between Christmas and New Year - but then most of the country is on holiday at that time so it's difficult to get any thing done.

Dougie

[Sam B]

yuutamichael - what a fabulous post. It warmed my cockels and reminded me why I moved here.