[JoHnH]

I do get the feeling that some here are too ready to make comparisons without apparently allowing for certain basic facts which a prospective immigrant should surely be aware of. For example, with regard to salaries, cost of living, choice of goods, etc, surely it should be obvious that moving from a very large country with a per capita GDP of over $40,000 to a very small country with a per capita GDP around $25,000, on a level with Portugal on th OECD table, there's bound to be differences. Part of the reason for moving must presumably be a desire to become one of only 4 million people living in an area roughly the size of California. But there have to be trade-offs.
Similarly, I wonder how many prospective immigrants bother to learn a little NZ history. Most older Kiwis would still be conscious that from the 1930s to the 1970s, this place was rather proud of being a pioneering "cradle to grave" welfare state, where Socialism wasn't a dirty word. With the loss of the protected UK market and the oil shocks of the 1970s, things have changed a lot, but the bare bones are still there - the still nominally free education, free or subsidised health care, Social Security, state pension, etc. And ACC, the last Labour Party achievement or legacy if you like.
Some examples. An American lady of our acquaintance took time off work for some elective surgery, and dug into her savings to do so. She was quite annoyed when I pointed out that as a resident, she would have been fully entitled to a sickness benefit, which would at least have paid her rent.
When my wife needed urgent surgery, under current conditions we "went private" rather than joining a state waiting list, because our minimal insurance at least paid 80% of the bill. But an American nurse pointed out that the procedure would have cost three times as much in the States, because of the surgeon's need for malpractice insurance. ACC prevents that here.
NZ farmers used to be heavily subsidised by conservative governments, propped up to retain their votes. (Pretty much like Kansas, I gather, which I've seen described as a welfare state for farmers.) When the 1984 Labour government removed the subsidies some farmers squealed, but the majority adapted, became more efficient, they're doing pretty nicely now. Isn't that sort of thing part of being a basically sensible, practical, down-to-earth community, with a good chance of riding out the waves when, not if, the whole US financial house of cards collapses, which apparently is increasingly likely.
You'll notice that with a change of government here, there's no insanely expensive Inaugural carry-on, just a quick photo on the Beehive steps and down to work. If we're making comparisons, shouldn't that sort of thing be taken into account?
OK, there's not 100 choices of breakfast cereal in the supermarket, only 10 or so. If ten's not enough, but all that can be expected in a very small economy, does it really need commenting on as though there's some kind of competition going on?
To paraphrase one of your randier Presidents: perhaps there could be a bit more of "Ask not whether NZ will suit you. Ask whether you will suit NZ."

[sbinder]

For example, with regard to salaries, cost of living, choice of goods, etc, surely it should be obvious that moving from a very large country with a per capita GDP of over $40,000 to a very small country with a per capita GDP around $25,000, on a level with Portugal on the OECD table, there's bound to be differences.

John, I believe that is exactly the point of this thread. No one is complaining about the open spaces here, or the holiday and sickness benefits, or the lack of a litigious culture; the forum has hundreds of postings on the benefits of moving here (and there are many!). But it is an academic exercise to compare GDPs - this thread seeks to give specific examples of the differences, to translate them into actual impacts on our lives once we moved here. We all moved here for our reasons and are staying here (this isn't in the Leaving NZ forum, after all), but it is only fair that those still coming over know the positives and negatives of relocation.

As far as grocery costs go, I tried to shop for food on sale (i.e. in season) back in the States as much as I do here and still have seen my grocery costs rise by almost a third. Of course, grocery costs have risen astronomically worldwide in the same period, so the US-to-NZ comparison might not be quite that much.

[JoHnH]

OK, SBinder, just call me a GOK (Grumpy Old Kiwi.)
But aren't you accusing your compatriot prospective migrants of being unable to understand "academic" concepts like "GDP," and needing specific examples like "Help, I'm starving here?"

[Mrs Pony]

I think the whole point of this thread is it's exact title... To explain some things that American's aren't used and how you adjust... The differences that they face after living in the US for soo long...

We're not just moving to a different state here where they might talk a bit slower... it's a whole new country where EVERYTHING is different!

[Hagabel]

Interesting thread to which as a American (former Brit, I admit) considering moving to NZ I am finding fascinating. In reference to the grocery prices and someone's comment of rising prices I have definitely see a large rise in vegetables and specific other items over the past few months. Gas has gone up (yes, I know it is cheaper than NZ) and the housing market is flat.
Coming from the UK a long time ago I rememeber how cheap everything seemed when I got here and I know I am definitely expecting a lower salary and higher cost of living in NZ. I am also looking for less traffic (we have 2nd worst traffic in nation in WA state), less pollution, less people and a slower pace of life.
I, for one, appreciate the positive and negative points shared by people. It is also nice to know that there are other Americans moving over there.

[yuutamichael]

I think that JoHnH's sentiment is that people are saying "I wish New Zealand was more like America with guns and breakfast cereals and abusive law enforcement and private health care and such" and he's saying, "No, no no! That's why we came to New Zealand in the first place!" If you're looking for some Ayn-Randian libertarian dream then New Zealand is not the place for you (frankly I don't know where would be). Politically here in New Zealand the top 4 parties are all much more liberal than the Democratic Party back in America.

I do agree JoHnH to a degree that people should read up on New Zealand history before coming here. And since this is a thread about how to actually adjust to New Zealand I'll give some actual advice. A great book to start with is Michael King's "The Penguin History of New Zealand" (Note, not a book about the history of penguins in New Zealand). It's a really good bird's eye view of the entire history of New Zealand and it's written in an approachable style. New Zealand is incredibly provincial almost bordering on parochial so it's important to know about the local area and history. There's undoubtedly a book about the suburb or town you're living in, check it out from the library and actually read it. This is the stuff that is ingrained in to New Zealanders all their lives by family and media and if you want to be able to relate you'll need to spend a few minutes reading more than just Lonely Planet.

I was lucky when I very first arrived in New Zealand that I caught a play down in the Christchurch Gardens called "The Complete History of New Zealand (Abridged)" based off of "The Complete Works of Shakespeare (Abridged)". It was a great, humorous introduction to kiwiana. Definitely see it if you have a chance.

Also, once you get here I'd encourage everyone to take a Te Reo Maori language class, preferably one taught in a Marae if possible. If only to learn a little more about that cultural aspect of New Zealand and some of the daily used words. Remember if you're coming here to stay you should try to blend as much Kiwi culture with your current outlook as possible. You'll always have a bit of American in you but you came here for a reason so jump in and experience it, your quality of life will be better for it.

Plus there are some TV shows and movies that you can catch on DVD that would probably help out also. All of these can probably found at your local New Zealand library or if you live a little more rurally you might want to think of joining either www.fatso.co.nz or www.dvdunlimited.co.nz sort of like NetFlix in the States.

Good TV shows to watch: Kiwi Kitchen (both seasons), The Unauthorized History of New Zealand, Eating Media Lunch, Outrageous Fortune, The Best of Country Calendar. Once you're here watch the current events show Campbell Live, it'll give you a good sense of Kiwi humour and what's going on in the country.

Good movies to catch: Rain (directed by Christine Jeffs, really catches 1970s kiwi nostalgia), Number 2 (directed by Toa Fraiser, good glance at Auckland suburb life), Sione's Wedding (comedy about Pacific Islander New Zealand culture). Heavenly Creatures, Kaikohe Demolition, Goodbye Pork Pie, Woodenhead, all of these are favourite New Zealand films of mine. Anyone with any other suggestions?

[dilanium]

It's great to read as much as possible. We did before we came here. However you cannot learn an experience from a book. That's why I like this thread, people talk about their experiences and their reactions and emotions to it. Just because you know something will be different because you read it in a book it doesn't mean you know how you will react to it.

True, everyone's reactions will be different, but at least you have a clue as to what to expect. I always thought this thread was not so much about the information of what is different (though it is nice to have it in such a succinct manner as opposed to reading 5 books to get the same information), but how people cope with the paradigm shifts you go through, and recognising what those shifts are. For example, I really didn't think crossing the road would be difficult or make me uneasy- but it did for about two weeks. I knew the houses were poorly insulated, but I knew the average winter temperature was much warmer than I was used to, so I didn't think it would matter (it does, it really does!) I feel much colder here than I did when out in the snow in Ohio.

I'm not saying it's worse, I'm saying it's different, and people need to think about their reactions to the differences rather than intellectually acknowledging that there are differences. Not to mention that not everyone understands taxes in the US, so how can we expect them to read a book and understand them here? Sometimes we need simple explanations not everyone is a genius who understands everything.

[JoHnH]

Yeah, Michael King died in a road crash, sadly. From the final page of his history:
"And most New Zealanders, whatever their cultural backgrounds, are good-hearted, practical, commonsensical and tolerant. Those qualities are part of the national cultural capital that has in the past saved the country from the worst excesses .... seen in other parts of the world. They are as sound a basis as any for optimism about the country's future."
Like I say, it's not just "Will NZ suit you," it's "will you suit NZ?"

[DMcG]

I think that people underestimate the change in culture because there is no real language barrier to overcome (I'm speaking of the Brits and Americans here). If you had to learn another language, you'd expect things to be different. Here, the differences sort of sneak up on you. Having a Kiwi partner and having visited a few times, I at least had a good idea of what I was in for.

I'll add a couple of films to the list - Whale rider - which is a must for understanding some Maori culture (and it almost had me weeping at the end !) - and Black Sheep - "The ultimate zombie/sheep/slasher flick that NZ was waiting for!". and if you haven't seen the epic three part documentary on the NZ countryside produced by Peter Jackson - shame on you! :D

Dougie

[Ana&Steve]

and if you haven't seen the epic three part documentary on the NZ countryside produced by Peter Jackson - shame on you! :D


You seriously had me going, it took me several seconds before it dawned on me!:o

[JPOnion]

I dont really have anything of my own to add since I haven't actually been to NZ yet. I've been off and on researching for the last few months, but the last month it's gotten serious, and this thread has helped a lot. It's one thing to prepare for the differences by knowing about them, it's another thing entirely (and much harder to do) to prepare for how they'll actually hit you when you get there. That's what I'm trying to do, and thats why this thread and all the stories are helping. In other words, I want to know the facts, but even moreso I want to know the personal experiences, especially from people from similar backgrounds (american). So, thanks.

I second Whale Rider. I teared up in the theaters, and again when I watched it last week. Yeah, I'll admit that :wah Dead Can Dance, by the way, is my all time favourite band (they did the beautiful music in that movie). Also, being a motorcycle nut, The World's Fastest Indian is another great movie. It's mostly set in the western US, but it's a story of Burt Munro and his trek from Invercargill to Utah to set a land speed record.

[sweetpea]

I think that people underestimate the change in culture because there is no real language barrier to overcome (I'm speaking of the Brits and Americans here). If you had to learn another language, you'd expect things to be different. Here, the differences sort of sneak up on you.

This is true. The populated parts of New Zealand tend to look a lot like lower-middle- to middle-class suburban US, and with the same language, it's easy to think that most things are the same. The differences are profound though.

As far as NZ culture, a good (and fun!) movie to watch is Footrot Flats. Dave Dobbyn's music from the movie is also popular. The film Once Were Warriors is required viewing too.

If you're lazy and/or busy like me, you can learn some Maori via Whanau, which is a 15-minute show on TV One at 4pm (or so). As a bonus, there is a fair amount of crossover between the actors on Whanau and some of the Maori characters on Shortland Street (Huia used to be on, Mu and Tane are on now). All the characters on Whanau speak the Te Reo version of Spanglish, which is kind of awesome.

[sweetpea]

Like I say, it's not just "Will NZ suit you," it's "will you suit NZ?"

This sounds great in principle, but you need to realize that the New Zealand government is not just allowing immigration but actively recruiting immigrants, and the materials aimed at English-speaking immigrants do not necessarily provide a realistic description of the country. Instead, potential immigrants read things like this on the NZ Immigration web site:

"A journalist who recently visited New Zealand summed up this beautiful country perfectly when she said, “When I die, I will surely go to hell for I have already been to heaven.”

Now, you'd have to be an idiot not to do more research before moving your life halfway around the world, but immigrants are not getting the message "Will you suit NZ?" at all from the NZ government; instead they are getting a hard sell. (It is instructive to look at the Canadian government's immigration site, which has a matter-of-fact tone rather than a promotional one.) Also, until recently, there has not been much balanced information online about what living in NZ is really like for Americans, what cultural differences they are, and how these differences can positively and negatively affect education, work life, etc.

[Moorf]

I believe NZIS are adding country-specific information -they've made a start with the U.S. altho it'll be a huge, but worthwhile, project. Does seem to be taking a while...

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/nzopportunities/

I remember a time when people used to think that the NZPure 100% ads were for immigration when they're for tourism. Plus, ultimately NZIS are marketing a country and in those instances a strapline of "but stuff costs more and it's a bit chilly" doesn't really work...

You're right, the Canada site is very matter of fact and does have more "what will it be like for YOU" info which hopefully NZ is adopting... I think it's been too easy for NZIS to sell on scenery in the past (hey, why not, it's one of it's biggest attractions) but now that people are feeling the pinch it's not quite enough.... I think you'll see their campaigns evolving...

[JoHnH]

I'll take your word for it, Sweetpea. I had a quick look at the NZIS website, and I couldn't see anything like that "already been to heaven" bit you quoted. Obviously that would be totally irresponsible for a Government site, if it is in there somewhere. Might be excusable on a tourism site perhaps.
Must say, in general the NZIS site didn't seem over the top to me, it seemed reasonably objective and not that much of a "hard sell."
I doubt that they could be persuaded to include a "problems, issues and drawbacks" section, anyway. "What we're not telling you?"
I find the Migrant Emigration Stories section on this site quite interesting - fair range of opinions, including some very negative ones. But perhaps it tells you as much about the contributors as it does about NZ? Some of them sound like they wouldn't be happy anywhere.

[Jo Jo]

I'll take your word for it, Sweetpea. I had a quick look at the NZIS website, and I couldn't see anything like that "already been to heaven" bit you quoted. Obviously that would be totally irresponsible for a Government site, if it is in there somewhere.

It's on this page: http://www.immigration.govt.nz/nzopportunities/unitedstates/notalone/notalone2.htm

[yuutamichael]

I find the Migrant Emigration Stories section on this site quite interesting - fair range of opinions, including some very negative ones. But perhaps it tells you as much about the contributors as it does about NZ? Some of them sound like they wouldn't be happy anywhere.

Again JoHnH articulates exactly what I was thinking. I say focus on the positive once you're here. If you find it worse than America than there's absolutely no shame whatsoever going home. Or you could try and get elected to change things for the better I suppose.

So, after speaking to a New Zealand friend of mine who lived in America for a long period of time about this very subject today I asked her what advice would you give to Americans coming to live here. Thought it was interesting and so I got her permission to share it here:



Cheese is not dealt with well here, be wary of use of all cheesy sentiment.
To the contrary, sarcasm is rife in our culture. Do not always take things verbatim. It is very easy for Americans to get offended in NZ
Don’t expect shopping to be the same. It may seem small but if you come thinking you’ll get the same things (i.e. types or size of meals, clothing stores), or the same prices, you’ll be disappointed.
Try to generate some perception of how America is viewed by the rest of the world before you come. I’ve met Americans who have no concept of the way America is seen not only by the East, but the rest of the West. It’s helpful if one is not to come across ignorant of this fact.
Take the viewpoint that this is a different culture and thus there are things to be enjoyed and things that will appear better at home, but this is all just part of the experience.
Consequently, it’s good to get involved in things in the community, particularly if you’ll be living here, and particularly things you may not have had the opportunity to do in the US.
You may hug your friends and acquaintances back home. New Zealanders don't do that. They like their personal space.
Don't focus on what isn't here, focus on what is. For instance, less cereals at the market but I'd rather eat Hubbards Berry Berry Nice than anything you have in the States. That applies on a large scale too from environment to people to music.
If you'd be unhappy in a tiny town in America then you're not going to be happy in Palmerston North or Invercargill here. There are cities in New Zealand, if you're a city person go to a city. Also, each city is very different. Auckland is not much like Wellington and neither are anything like Christchurch.
Just because something is a particular way here doesn't mean it can't be changed. Some complaints are genuine and you can get involved to make things better.


I don’t intend at all to be negative about US culture. However, having traveled extensively in the US and had a number of experiences with Americans visiting here, these are the things I would offer as advice to make things go more smoothly and not frustrate the natives. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard “oooooooooh you don’t have X?? Really?? Wow I just don’t know how I would survive without it!” or “I can’t believe the cost of X in your country!” Or “I can’t believe they just said that” or “Really, you don’t think Iraq deserved to have the troops invade after all that happened in 9/11??”

Personally, and this is just me, I don't find it all that much helpful to spend much time thinking about the how I adjusted to it. I guess that's why I'm more of a 'give advice' kind of guy than an "oh yeah, that was different it took me a while to get used to that" kind of guy. Perhaps my way of coping is to just be fairly proactive and involve myself in New Zealand things, not spend to much time thinking about it. Of course your mileage may vary.

[ers99w]

Right before I moved here, I met the mother of a US student studying for his PhD in Otago (I actually went to high school with her son; we're from a very small, rural southern town in Virginia). She told me that he HATED it. I asked why, and she said that NZ'ers were terribly liberal in their views and how they do things, and her son was extremely conservative.

That's when I knew I'd like NZ. :)

Coming from America (ha ha, not quite), it IS really hard to get used to certain things here, though, and I see room for improvement in a lot of places. I understand that because there just aren't alot of people here, things aren't as commercial or slick as they are in America--and there's no need for it to be. I see lots of typos and errors in advertisements. Websites aren't as polished. Fashions and hairstyles are a bit different. As my BF says, It feels a little bit like we're in 1992.

After only a month and a half, top things to get used to (for me):
--no Target :( I LIVE at Target at home, and no, the warehouse doesn't hold a candle. and I don't get 'a burgin' there much.

--prices! prices! prices! everything is about 2-3 times as expensive as they are back home, across the board. My US$100/mo grocery budget in San Diego turned into a NZ$500/mo one here--and that's using coupons, buying only on sale, eating PB&J every day for lunch (only cheap brands), and only a banana and tea for breakfast. I just don't know what else to do with that. :(

--on top of that, my salary decreased by about $21K/year and I'm NOT eligible for any sort of retirement savings vehicles here. :(

--TV here is very graphic...as I gag after watching Jamie Oliver kill a chicken and the blood drip from the carcass. but seriously, if you're in NZ to watch TV, you should be shot.

other things i've noticed:

--everyone 'liaises' with each other. it's not 'hey, let's go talk to ___ about that,' it's called LIAISING.

--i find that the Kiwi way of ending conversations is a bit awkward. I just go, 'thanks' and leave, or 'talk to you later' and leave, but with them it's all, 'Right...erm...yeah. Well then...ok, all right. Yeah..." maybe it's polite? but i just tend to think, stop wasting time and get out of my office!

--i HEART the no-suing policy, ACC, and the other awesome progressive social policies. But it is hard to get out of the mindset that if someone is truly wronged (like on Trade Wars), that you can't get awarded money for 'pain and suffering' or a fine to punish the person that wronged you. Maybe some hybrid between the two systems is necessary? It seems like the crooks get away with alot here. I'm considered a VERY bleeding heart liberal when it comes to things like capital punishment and prisoner's rights in the US, and the Kiwi system is even a bit much for me!

There's more, but it's time for bed. Have a good night!

[lindreth]

...you can't get awarded money for 'pain and suffering' or a fine to punish the person that wronged you. Maybe some hybrid between the two systems is necessary? It seems like the crooks get away with alot here...

I thought I read somewhere that if the person/business who caused you harm was reckless or "grossly negligent" (something more than just an accident) that the injured person could opt out of the ACC system and sue for damages. Is that true, or did I make that up?

From the little I know, it seems like ACC is similar to Workers' Comp in the U.S. Is that true?

lindsay

[BkyMonster]

That is an excellent list Yuutamichael

[Ana&Steve]

Cheese is not dealt with well here, be wary of use of all cheesy sentiment.
I need some clarification here! I'm hoping I wouldn't have to suppress my "kittens and unicorns eating lollipops under a cotton candy sky" attitude;)
Or is it more "smarmyness" you are referring to?

[BkyMonster]

yeah, I'm a bit confused by that. Do you mean insincere attitude? smarmyness is a good word too. :p
I read it and first thought of actual cheese and was a bit confused. I know dairy products are expensive but... :D

[yuutamichael]

I need some clarification here! I'm hoping I wouldn't have to suppress my "kittens and unicorns eating lollipops under a cotton candy sky" attitude;)
Or is it more "smarmyness" you are referring to?

I had a moment of confusion with that one too, especially with the recent dairy prices. What she's referring to, and I've heard many New Zealanders say this, is sentimentality. I think it goes hand in hand with Americans tendency to hug people at early stages in their friendships. Cheesy American platitudes about love and friendship elicit eye rolling. :roll I once told a separate kiwi friend, before I left to go live in Japan for a year "Aw, I'm going to miss you." Her response was "Tone it down a notch." Expressing feelings too openly isn't appreciated that much.

I'm afraid to say that the "kittens and unicorns eating lollipops in a magical kingdom made of love under a cotton candy sky that rains dragon's tears (Which as we all know turn in to Jelly Beans!)" attitude may be a bit tiring to a lot of New Zealanders. They wear black clothing all the time here, not just to rugby games. Still it's all about blending what you naturally are in the states with who you naturally are in New Zealand.

On an oddly contrasting note definitions of masculinity are a bit more relaxed here than they are in the States. I found it kind of nice not have to put on the hyper masculine charade that is expected a lot of the times in America. Anyone else notice that?

[Ana&Steve]

I had a moment of confusion with that one too, especially with the recent dairy prices. What she's referring to, and I've heard many New Zealanders say this, is sentimentality. I think it goes hand in hand with Americans tendency to hug people at early stages in their friendships. Cheesy American platitudes about love and friendship elicit eye rolling. :roll I once told a separate kiwi friend, before I left to go live in Japan for a year "Aw, I'm going to miss you." Her response was "Tone it down a notch." Expressing feelings too openly isn't appreciated that much.
I'm pretty much guilty of all of the above and the kitten, unicorns, etc. aren't that much of an exaggeration either!:o I think, in retrospect, that I see where I may have put a few people off in this way. I do like to wear black, brown, and gray though so maybe it will even out...

[JoHnH]

Actually, Yuutamichael, in addition to your list of films, there's quite a lot out there on U-Tube which should prove quite baffling to puzzled Americans: e.g. self-parodying Kiwi humour from the 1970s and 1980s - for those with more time than sense, search on Fred Dagg or Billy T James, especially his History of NZ ones. Or how about the Toyota "Bugger" ads?
The very old BASF commercial - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD6S8DZHpG4 - apparently that's actually a bunch of Kiwi actors shooting in the old Winstone's quarry in Mt Wellington, Auckland, just up the road from me.
The current Air New Zealand Grandpa commercial - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD6S8DZHpG4 - why do I like that one? Maybe because the boy in it looks just like my own son-in-law?
The Kiwi version of the Aussie "Where the bloody hell are you?" tourist ad - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxgQ27RDDWk
Then of course there's Poi E. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQLUygS0IAQ

Maybe some others have got favourites?

[JoHnH]

Woops. Grandpa ad should be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFQGogEFWGE Sorry.

[Oregonkiwi]

My US$100/mo grocery budget in San Diego turned into a NZ$500/mo one here--and that's using coupons, buying only on sale, eating PB&J every day for lunch (only cheap brands), and only a banana and tea for breakfast. I just don't know what else to do with that. :(

I'm a bit surprised by this. You don't say how many people you're shopping for, but we (family of 3) spend around NZ$500/month at the supermarket - and there is just no way I could have bought an equivalent amount of food in the US for US$25 per week. Is there another factor to the equation that you're not telling us?:confused:

[yuutamichael]

I'm a bit surprised by this. You don't say how many people you're shopping for, but we (family of 3) spend around NZ$500/month at the supermarket - and there is just no way I could have bought an equivalent amount of food in the US for US$25 per week. Is there another factor to the equation that you're not telling us?:confused:

Seriously. How could anyone only spend US$100 a month on food? I was just shopping for myself in Utah and I easily spend over $60 a week in food back then. That's $85 New Zealand, which is only about 15% less than what I'm spending a week here shopping as a couple. I also must be one of the few people that actually gets paid more in New Zealand than I did in the States the way everyone's complaining here.

I've got some more essential viewing TV ads that I'll post here tonight.

[dilanium]

We spend exactly what we spent on groceries before- but then we only ate organic in the states.

[BkyMonster]

We (2 of us) spend less than $200 per month on food with buying a lot of bulk and making things from scratch. I can see how it would be possible.
I expect it to go up at least 100 in NZ with the difference in meat prices (we eat a lot of ground turkey now as it is cheap here, barely available in NZ from what I can see), and my OH's love of breakfast cereal (expensive anywhere :roll) and milk.

[sweetpea]

I understand that because there just aren't alot of people here, things aren't as commercial or slick as they are in America--and there's no need for it to be.

Yeah, I think a lot of both the bad and the good comes down to small population size. And remoteness.


After only a month and a half, top things to get used to (for me):

--no Target :( I LIVE at Target at home, and no, the warehouse doesn't hold a candle. and I don't get 'a burgin' there much.

I feel your pain about the lack of Target ;) Kmart here is a bit better than the Warehouse in that you can get a fair number of well-designed housewares there, which is especially nice when things are on 75% off clearance. Still, yeah... thank god for international shipping and sisters willing to send stuff :)


--TV here is very graphic...as I gag after watching Jamie Oliver kill a chicken and the blood drip from the carcass. but seriously, if you're in NZ to watch TV, you should be shot.

To be fair, that show is a UK import ;)


--i HEART the no-suing policy, ACC, and the other awesome progressive social policies. But it is hard to get out of the mindset that if someone is truly wronged (like on Trade Wars), that you can't get awarded money for 'pain and suffering' or a fine to punish the person that wronged you. Maybe some hybrid between the two systems is necessary? It seems like the crooks get away with alot here. I'm considered a VERY bleeding heart liberal when it comes to things like capital punishment and prisoner's rights in the US, and the Kiwi system is even a bit much for me!

I totally agree with you here. The lack of litigiousness is really, really nice, and it's something I'll miss when I'm back in America getting sued and hauled up before the licensing board (as I will be if statistics for my people in my next job are any prediction). At the same time, there is something to be said for enforcing some personal responsibility and sense of fair play, and I'm not sure NZ has reached an optimal level yet.

[sweetpea]

I expect it to go up at least 100 in NZ with the difference in meat prices (we eat a lot of ground turkey now as it is cheap here, barely available in NZ from what I can see), and my OH's love of breakfast cereal (expensive anywhere :roll) and milk.

Yep, no ground turkey. There is something called chicken mince, but it's pink and bloody and I'm too squeamish to eat it. I spend about NZ$80/week for one person, generally eating no meat, but indulging in luxuries like humuus and pita as well quesadillas (who ever thought they'd be a high ticket item? $5 for 10-12 tortillas). I know people who spend that much for two, generally getting by with $1 loaves of white bread, cheap sausages, baked beans, ramen noodles and canned spaghetti, plus veggies from the garden.

[yuutamichael]

but seriously, if you're in NZ to watch TV, you should be shot.

Haha, just saw this. I guess technically and professionally that is why I'm in New Zealand!

[nate]

Now, you'd have to be an idiot not to do more research before moving your life halfway around the world, but immigrants are not getting the message "Will you suit NZ?" at all from the NZ government; instead they are getting a hard sell. (It is instructive to look at the Canadian government's immigration site, which has a matter-of-fact tone rather than a promotional one.) Also, until recently, there has not been much balanced information online about what living in NZ is really like for Americans, what cultural differences they are, and how these differences can positively and negatively affect education, work life, etc.

IMO, you can't expect to get an accurate representation from the government as to what your experience will be like. That would be silly in any country, regardless. Anyone who would expect a rosy welcome after taking in Immigration NZ's info is lacking in common sense. You can't fault the government for trying to paint a rosy picture to attract a needed resource (skilled migrants) - in fact, you should expect them to. As Moorf said earlier, what are they gonna say?

I had no trouble finding several books written on emigrating to NZ, as well as NZ culture and history. Both of the books that I learned to lean on for emigration, which have proven pretty accurate, had been out for almost a decade, with revisions as necessary. I found plenty of personal and firsthand advice on the internet for someone moving to NZ. I think if people have the go-get-it attitude they need to make a move like this, then they'll have no trouble finding resources aside from the internet. And they won't look to the NZ government to lay the framework for them.

:: nate ::

[yuutamichael]

Here are some more NZ TV commercials that are part of the cultural consciousness:

Good Night Kiwi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H2BOGGUbm4 This used to run every night when TVNZ went off the air.

Trumpet's Togs or Undies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-Lx2ihpGbc Newer commercial but quite funny.

Toyota Bugger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKY_OysWu3k Essential viewing. It'll come up at some point, I promise.

L&P Stubbies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7rHZpwuWds More 70's nostalgia, voice over by Jermain Clement

L&P Swimming Pool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9crEwkyoHBw Another commercial with 70's nostalgia, this time more youthful

Pineapple Lumps http://theinspirationroom.com/daily/2006/pineapple-lumps-sweet-as/ Story included on page

Georgie Pie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6zTLkd0JV4 Not particularly funny but good to note that there once was a home grown New Zealand fast food chain. Was eventually bought out by McDonald's

Beached As http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVHZwI8pcA Not a commercial and I don't know where it comes as but a good examination of New Zealand accents

KFC ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8l5Fk_xz0w Been mentioned by coworkers as a favourite

[JoHnH]

Nice one, Uutamichael.

Goodnight Kiwi Updated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTyom7rrNoo

[sweetpea]

I think if people have the go-get-it attitude they need to make a move like this, then they'll have no trouble finding resources aside from the internet. And they won't look to the NZ government to lay the framework for them.

I would hope so, but I think that, to some extent, people hear what they want to hear. I think some people's rather heated reactions to less-that-glowing reviews of NZ is evidence of that. Too, it's hard to believe that anyone wants to argue that people are not swayed by advertisements, despite "knowing better." I have 13 books on NZ on my lifetime reading list, and each was helpful in its own way, but none really captured the immigrant experience, especially from an American perspective. Of course, people should be responsible for doing their own homework, but at some point you have to go on the info you have, make the leap, and hope. It's just easier when the info provided is more factual, varied and even-handed, rather than primarily promotional.

[Jolie]

There's been a lot of really good information presented in this thread. But I've been dismayed at the amount of grossly inaccurate information presented as well.

Firstly, I have to say that I love NZ, and I will quite likely never move back to the U.S. I've lived in several large American cities, and I love Auckland more than any of the other places I've lived. I've had to make a fair number of adjustments to my lifestyle as it was in the U.S. but none of them have been "deal-breakers" for me.

Now, for some cold, hard truths:

Wages & Taxes
Whilst a few people (likely certain I.T. positions) may find themselves making more than they were in the U.S., after conversion ($1 NZ = about 70¢ U.S. right now), the vast majority will be making less, and a majority much less -- perhaps up to 40% less. This is a fact of life in NZ. It's a much smaller country, has much fewer economic resources, and economies-of-scale generally don't apply here. If this sort of lower income would be a problem for you, NZ would likely not be the right choice for you. On a salary of $100,000, take-home pay will be around $70,000 -- before all the "must-have" and "should-have" deductions.

And if you're an IT contractor or other self-employed person, be aware that there will be an additional 12.5% coming out of your salary to pay GST. (I know of a doctor who had to move his family back to Britain because the other doctors whose practice he joined failed to tell him this, and the difference in salary made his financial situation unworkable.)

Cost of Living
Now, if the COL here were also significantly lower, that would not be a huge problem. However, the COL here is about the same as it is in non-major metropolitan areas of the U.S. If you live in NYC, SF, LA, SD, Seattle, etc. you're likely looking at a slightly lower cost-of-living here. If you live anywhere else, it's probably going to be higher -- perhaps much higher.

Food is definitely more expensive than it is in the U.S. And as far as packaged food, there is not nearly the amount of variety and choice that there is in the U.S. There is only a very small selection of "Lite" or Reduced Fat food items here (although it is gradually getting a little better). There is pretty much no such thing as bulk-packaged foods for lower price-per-gram/kilo/litre; I think that this may be somewhat due to the fact that Kiwis' fridges and kitchens are smaller than Americans', and there's just no place to store "extra" amounts of food. And if you're a vegetarian, that will present a whole additional set of problems: non-meat products are often not necessarily vegetarian, for instance, yogurt here is made with gelatin as a thickener.

General Merchandise, Clothes, Electronics, Books, CDs, Over-the-Counter Drugs
Everything is more expensive here. I mean everything. $8-9 books in the U.S. are $20-25 here. $16 CDs in the U.S. are $30-35 here. Electronics items here are 20%-100% more expensive than comparable items in the U.S. Simple stuff like shampoo, conditioner, and toothpaste can cost $6-7 each here. Ibuprofen, of which you can get 300 tablets for around $7 U.S., here costs about $1 NZD for 5 tablets.

Yes, you can order from Amazon or Drugstore.com, but if your order is worth more than $150 NZD (that $105 US), you'll have to pay an additional 12.5% GST extortion to get your package from the delivery company -- on $105 US, that's another $13. On a $300 US order, that's another $37 US -- on top of what you've already paid for shipping (which might be $30-100 US). And again, the bulk-packaging concept simply hasn't caught on here: at the hardware store, two AA batteries might be $3.49, whilst a package of four AA batteries will be priced at $7.49 (!).

Medical Care
Yes, it is paid for by the government. But -- and this is a big but -- people who can afford to pay for private health insurance frequently do so. This is because, if you need some kind of major surgery or treatment, you can be on a waiting list for months or even years to get it -- including heart surgery, hip replacements, certain kinds of cancer treatments, etc. On the positive side, general small medical treatment and most well-care is usually available fairly quickly and affordably.

The one caveat to this is prescription drugs -- if it's subsidised by the government, it's usually only $3-5 -- but if it's NOT, you pay full retail price. What's more, my private insurance does not even reimburse me for unsubsidised drugs, in other words, they will only reimburse me that $3-5 fee. I use one unsubsidised drug that costs me $150 per month -- and I'm thankfully on a very low dose, my past dosage would have cost me $300-600 per month. In the past I've tried the Pharmac-approved subsidised drugs, and none of them works for me. I also brought a small stash of my migraine medication with me from the U.S. When those are gone, I don't know what I'll do -- I rarely get the headaches now, but nothing else works on them, including all of the Pharmac-approved drugs, and my drug is not even available in NZ. If Pharmac switches approval for your drug from one brand to another, you have to switch -- or pay full price. This is a problem, because there is often a variation in effectiveness of the same dose of the "same" drug from one company to another.

Cars, Petrol and Insurance
New cars are more expensive than in the U.S. Most people here don't buy new cars, they buy used, and they will often drive the car until it gives up the ghost. (The average age of automobiles on NZ roads is 11 years.) I bought a pretty nice new car for around $42,000. The insurance on it is about $850 a year, plus Warrant-of-Fitness and license plate renewal, another $250 per year. The cost of petrol has been rising dramatically; it costs me over $100 each time I fill up my tank, and petrol costs are projected to continue to rise here. Mass-transit here is okay, but not great.

Interest Rates, Savings, Loans & Mortgages, Retirement Accounts
Think the 7-8% interest rate on Savings sounds attractive here? Then you won't mind the 10-14% interest rate on car loans, right? (I bought a car in the U.S. 10 years ago at 3% interest.) Most fixed-rate mortgages you can get here are only good for 2-5 years (as opposed to 20-30 years in the U.S.) and are at interest rates that Americans would consider exhorbitant. You can get longer terms if you agree to a variable-rate mortgage -- but there aren't the kind of "caps" on how much the rate can go up each year the way there are in the U.S.

And, now, let's talk about Pensions. If you think that you will no longer have to save for your retirement once you move to NZ, you are terribly mistaken. Pensions here do not keep pace with inflation, do not provide a comparable standard-of-living to pre-retirement, and in many cases aren't even a realistically livable amount. There are pensioners here who are now having to sell the homes that they thought they would be able to live in for the rest of their lives -- because their rates (property taxes) have risen with inflation, their pension doesn't come close to being able to cover that expense -- and they have no money in savings, because they believed that they would be able to live solely off their pension after retirement. If you move here from Britain and later receive some pension from the U.K., the NZ government will reduce your NZ pension payment by the same amount -- it's not fair, but that's what they do! I'm not sure, but I think the same thing applies to U.S. 401k's -- and if it doesn't, it probably will by the time you retire.

Standard of Living
Although your quality-of-life will likely be much better here, it's pretty certain that your standard-of-living won't be anywhere close to what it is the U.S. But before you decide to move to New Zealand, you need to do some serious research and number-crunching to determine whether even a reduced standard-of-living will be realistically achievable for you here.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from moving to NZ. What I am trying to do is warn you to make very sure that doing so will be financially workable for you. I've seen quite a few Brits and numerous Americans (on this and another migrant forum) back to their home country after a year or two, because they simply couldn't make ends meet here. I've seen posts in these forums by people who rejoice when they get to eat out at a restaurant once a month, or who go to bed at 9:00pm simply so they can save on their heating bill. And what good does it do to live in such a fabulous country, when you can't afford to go anywhere or do anything to enjoy it?

New Zealand is an awesome place to live -- but not an inexpensive one. Before you sell your home and spend a bundle moving here, you will want to make sure that it will be a winning proposition for you.

[gbFunk]

Just wanted to say - what a great post!!! I am planning a move at the moment, and that sort of information (even though coming from UK and not US) is brilliant at helping clarify the position.

Thanks so much!

gbFunk

[akp713]

Well as a teacher, I will be making more here in NZ that I would be back in the US. After taxes though it works out to be relatively similar, but with NZ still having a slight edge. I think the standard of living change has been easier for me because I'm 23 and I was poor and uninsured before I came here.

As a student teacher I also work two part time jobs, 20 hours a week on top of a 50 hour week teaching (including coaching sports and planning lessons/marking) to pay for food and petrol. I don't like that in NZ I am penalized for having two jobs rather than one. I pay a higher tax rate on the second job. On the up side, the two jobs, which are both are minimum wage retail jobs, pay a lot more than I'd make in the same jobs in the US because the minimum wage is much higher in NZ.

Even with student loans I live on less than the NZ minimum wage would pay for a 40 hour week but I think I live pretty well. My food budget is about $70/week including getting a chicken burger at Nando's twice a week and having a Domino's pizza now and then. But I really love pasta, a very cheap food, so many of my meals are very cheap. I've learned to wear many layers indoors and never turn on my heater. For the first time in my life I am religous about turning the lights off as soon as I walk out of a room, even if only for a few moments. I've sacrificed going to the movies in favour of renting them on dvd and I don't buy new books like I did in the US.

My only experience with the medical system here was when I broke a toe tramping. The wait times were incredibly short and I got a referral very quickly. When I was in the US and did have full insurance through my parents I had a doctor who thought I should have an MRI. SHe had to lie to the insurance company and it took a week just to get it approved. I've also had to deal with incompetent doctors, doctors pushing perscription drugs at me and being regularly pushed off on the physician's assistant in the US system. I've never had that problem here.

Pensions definitely are not as good as in the US. Teachers get 50% of their pay if they work till they're 65. Many teachers work well past that and most of our relief teachers are in their 70s. They need the extra income. In the US many teachers retire in their 50s with better pensions.

My feeling is that since I've never had the experience of being a financialy independent adult in the US, didn't leave behind any accumulated savings or a paying job, the switch to NZ has been easier for me. Also the fact that US schools don't recognize out of country experience is a major incentive not to go back to the US because it would mean a pay-cut. My biggest worry is paying back US$ student loans with NZ$ salary. The weaker the NZ$ gets, the more of my salary goes to the loans.

I love living in Auckland more than any US city I've lived in as well. It is ranked 5th in the world for quality of life and I can see why. I think my lifestyle in Auckland makes it all worth it.

[JoHnH]

Is there some sort of hidden agenda here?

Very reasonable- and factual-sounding post by Jolie, interwoven with complete nonsense.
"Pensions here do not keep pace with inflation" - the state pension, NZ Superannuation, is adjusted annually, by law. The rate is set at a proportion of the average wage, and thus keeps pace with workers' incomes.
"There are pensioners here who are now having to sell the homes that they thought they would be able to live in for the rest of their lives -- because their rates (property taxes) have risen with inflation, their pension doesn't come close to being able to cover that expense" - after-tax NZ Super for a single person is currently $14685 per annum. Typical rates (property taxes) for an ordinary house in Auckland are maybe $1200 per annum. What's he/she on about?
"...they have no money in savings, because they believed that they would be able to live solely off their pension after retirement." The state pension has always provided just enough to live on if you're absolutely destitute, but very few people would have been that unlucky or silly - nearly everyone has something saved/invested/put aside for their old age. Past age 65, Super is paid without any sort of income or assets test. For many it is just a bonus on top of their private means, pays for annual overseas travel.
"If you think that you will no longer have to save for your retirement once you move to NZ, you are terribly mistaken." Why would anyone think that? Does NZIS say so, does it advise advise prospective immigrants to forget about saving?

[JandM]

If you move here from Britain and later receive some pension from the U.K., the NZ government will reduce your NZ pension payment by the same amount -- it's not fair, but that's what they do!If you live in NZ and you receive the UK State Pension, that is what is deducted from NZ superannuation payments. This doesn't apply to all UK pensions you might happen to be entitled to, but only the more-or-less equivalent government one. I wouldn't say that it's not fair. There's a reciprocal agreement between the two countries, that residence in the one will count towards pension entitlement in the other, for people who travel between them. It amounts to the fact that anyone who migrates will get A pension, partly paid by each country.

[swissmissdesigner]

Excellent post Jolie!!
I couldn't say better!!

cheers

Anna

[JPOnion]

My biggest worry is paying back US$ student loans with NZ$ salary. The weaker the NZ$ gets, the more of my salary goes to the loans.

This is my biggest financial concern. I've got about 25K in student loans (8 years...sigh), but since I'm still only a few months past graduation I haven't gotten my first bill yet. Not knowing what exactly it'll come to each month, plus the extra I'm planning on paying so I'm not just paying minimum, is putting a lot of big red ? marks on my proposed budget. Plus, the currency conversion rate doesn't help me feel any better about it, either...

[Oregonkiwi]

Although your quality-of-life will likely be much better here, it's pretty certain that your standard-of-living won't be anywhere close to what it is the U.S.

That's a bold claim - how can you be "pretty certain" that my standard of living is lower in NZ, when you know nothing of my personal circumstances or what my standard of living was like in the US? By all means share your personal experiences, but don't try to speak for all of us.

My husband and I are both earning much more in NZ than we were in the US. In America I never earned more than US$10 per hour, now I'm earning NZ$50K for similar work - plus now I get paid sick leave and 4 weeks paid vacation. We love the NZ public health system, we were constantly paying off large medical bills in the US and weighing up whether we really needed to take our baby to the doctor. If we had stayed in Oregon we would be sending our son to school in a school district that closed schools on Fridays to save money. So no, I don't think my standard of living was better in the US.

[wilson182]

And, now, let's talk about Pensions. If you think that you will no longer have to save for your retirement once you move to NZ, you are terribly mistaken. Pensions here do not keep pace with inflation, do not provide a comparable standard-of-living to pre-retirement, and in many cases aren't even a realistically livable amount. There are pensioners here who are now having to sell the homes that they thought they would be able to live in for the rest of their lives -- because their rates (property taxes) have risen with inflation, their pension doesn't come close to being able to cover that expense -- and they have no money in savings, because they believed that they would be able to live solely off their pension after retirement. If you move here from Britain and later receive some pension from the U.K., the NZ government will reduce your NZ pension payment by the same amount -- it's not fair, but that's what they do! I'm not sure, but I think the same thing applies to U.S. 401k's -- and if it doesn't, it probably will by the time you retire.



Firstly I would like to say I love this thread - some excellent posts on here, so I hope you don't mind me posting:D

But...

Isn't this why the NZ government have introduced Kiwi-Saver, because they are aware of the shortfalls of the State Superannuation and are trying to encourage private savings?? They also offer a rebate scheme for people on low incomes (not just pensioners) with property rates.

This isn't a problem exclusive to NZ either - the UK is facing the same issues with their State Super I believe (or they were when I left four years ago:))

[IanW99]

There's been a lot of really good information presented in this thread. But I've been dismayed at the amount of grossly inaccurate information presented as well.
...


It's nice to see that your post is no different to all the previous posts!!! :exit

Ian

[granger]

Yes, you can order from Amazon or Drugstore.com, but if your order is worth more than $150 NZD (that $105 US), you'll have to pay an additional 12.5% GST extortion to get your package from the delivery company -- on $105 US, that's another $13. On a $300 US order, that's another $37 US -- on top of what you've already paid for shipping (which might be $30-100 US).



Sorry to rain further on your parade but I buy frequently from Amazon and I have never had to pay GST because I keep my orders below $400. If you check the Customs site, you'll see that $400 is the limit above which GST is charged. In the event that you want to buy more than $400 worth of DVDs or whatever, buy some of them this week and buy some next week. Then you still won't pay GST. It's easy!

[dilanium]

I still say the claim that food is more expensive is bollocks. Some food is more expensive, no question. But I find buying in season produce MUCH cheaper than where I lived in the states. Also, I find buying in bulk helps a lot. When I go to the vege market I walk around, find the best deal for each kind of produce and buy it. For instance, today I bought 1 kilo of apples for $1. I would never have found that where I was in the states. Not to mention kiwifruit is WAY less expensive which is great because I love it.

Jolie, I appreciate that you have your own feelings towards New Zealand and the life here, but please don't try to force them on other people. I have to say that my quality of life and my standard of living are far higher here than they were in the States. I used to have to keep my house below 60°F in order to save money on the gas bill and would have to walk over a mile in the snow to save money on bus/petrol just to be able to buy dinner sometimes.

[Jolie]

No, I have no agenda here -- other than to make sure that Americans considering moving to NZ do so with their eyes wide open, and are well aware of what life will be like here -- first, so there are no surprises, and second, because I've seen the posts from numerous families who had to move back to the U.K. and the U.S., simply because they couldn't make ends meet here. It's absolutely heartbreaking to see that -- especially when these people sold their residences in those countries to move here, then they have an extremely difficult time getting back on the property ladder when they move back there because they've spent so much of their capital on the moves, and because real estate prices have risen greatly in the interim.

My post was made in response to several comments by prior posters, including
I am used to paying out the nose for health care, funding my own 401(k), getting two weeks paid leave accrued after the first year, wages not keeping up with inflation, hidden fees in everything, etc. Compared to this, what I will find in New Zealand sounds pretty great.
In NZ this person will still have to fund their own retirement, their annual wage increases will not keep pace with inflation, and they will pay hidden fees for many things.

These fees, such as checking account fees, are usually higher here than in the States, where many bank accounts are no-fee. No one gets free cell phones here when they sign a mobile contract -- the phones typically cost hundreds of dollars. "Free" stuff, privileges, and add-ons that Americans take for granted simply don't exist here.


I'd like to respond to some of the comments made in response to my post:

how can you be "pretty certain" that my standard of living is lower in NZ, when you know nothing of my personal circumstances or what my standard of living was like in the US?

You'll notice that I've made frequent use of words such as "likely" and "probably". This is because I certainly recognise that my statements don't apply to everyone. If you were just starting out as a young person in the U.S., or if you had a very low standard of living there (and $10/hr wage is certainly a very low standard of living), it is entirely possible that your standard of living is higher here in NZ. However, for most middle-class people in the 30-50 age range in the U.S., that's not going to be the case.


NZ Superannuation, is adjusted annually, by law. The rate is set at a proportion of the average wage, and thus keeps pace with workers' incomes.

Yes, but neither workers' incomes nor superannuation increases keeps pace with inflation in NZ.


after-tax NZ Super for a single person is currently $14685 per annum. Typical rates (property taxes) for an ordinary house in Auckland are maybe $1200 per annum.

This year Auckland City will increase total rates (water, wastewater, trash, property tax, etc) by 6.8 per cent. The average total residential rates bill will increase from $1250 to $1422. For many current pensioners in NZ, that average $14685 is all the annual income they have. When many of these pensioners first reached retirement, the annual rates on their homes was at most a couple hundred dollars. But property values in Auckland have risen massively in the last 10-15 years, and therefore so have their property tax rates, and the large annual increase in rates is only going to continue.

After all a person's other expenses, the increase in property tax rates over the years are often the difference between making it and not making it financially.

http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/Council/documents/focus/2006/contribution.asp


nearly everyone has something saved/invested/put aside for their old age.

Not in NZ. Here, a huge majority of people have put all their savings into their homes -- and their financial equity in their home may be quite a substantial figure. But remember, in order to gain the use of that money, they have to sell their home. So where are they going to live during their retirement?

New Zealand has one of the lowest private savings rates of any OECD country.


Isn't this why the NZ government have introduced Kiwi-Saver, because they are aware of the shortfalls of the State Superannuation and are trying to encourage private savings?? They also offer a rebate scheme for people on low incomes (not just pensioners) with property rates.

Yes, exactly -- and hopefully it will start making a difference. Unfortunately, employer contributions to Kiwisaver are a fraction of what U.S. employers typically contribute to their employees' 401ks ($1 for every $1, up to a certain amount). What's more, it's my understanding that if a retiree receives Kiwisaver benefits, their NZ govt-sponsored pension amount will be reduced (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong about this, because I'd like to be!).


If you check the Customs site, you'll see that $400 is the limit above which GST is charged

If that's true, then perhaps it's changed -- when I moved here, I was given an Internet link which pointed to a govt site showing the limit was $150 NZD.


I used to have to keep my house below 60°F in order to save money on the gas bill and would have to walk over a mile in the snow to save money on bus/petrol just to be able to buy dinner sometimes.

If you believe that there aren't many Kiwis making the same sort of sacrifices to make ends meet, you are mistaken. These sorts of economies are not at all uncommon here.


I appreciate that you have your own feelings towards New Zealand and the life here, but please don't try to force them on other people.

I'm sorry, but since when did posting my own thoughts and experiences in this Forum become "forcing them on other people"??? You are quite welcome to disagree with me -- but don't accuse me of "forcing" my own feelings on other people.


Ultimately, the decision to move here is going to have to be made by each person, who has hopefully done a great deal of research and number-crunching to make sure that such a move will be successful for them. I believe that the more information which is available to them in making that decision, the more likely it is that their decision will be a good one.

[dilanium]

If you believe that there aren't many Kiwis making the same sort of sacrifices to make ends meet, you are mistaken. These sorts of economies are not at all uncommon here.
Yes- but that was in Ohio. Not New Zealand. Being that the temperature here is much higher I can afford to keep my house warmer. My quality of life is greater and my standard of living is higher.

I'm sorry, but since when did posting my own thoughts and experiences in this Forum become "forcing them on other people"???

Right here: Although your quality-of-life will likely be much better here, it's pretty certain that your standard-of-living won't be anywhere close to what it is the U.S.

That is forcing your opinion onto other people's lives- assuming they are the same as your own. I'm not saying you are not entitled to your opinion. I enjoyed reading your post, but most of it came across as putting word into not only your own mouth but everyone else's.

[Jolie]

That is forcing your opinion onto other people's lives

Let's just say that I think you have a very strange definition of the word forcing and leave it at that.

[dilanium]

Well- you stated it as if it were a fact- therefore you forced it upon other people's lives. Not saying you forced them to live that way, just that you were explaining it in a way in which it seemed ubiquitous, which it is not.

I suppose I phrased it awkwardly- but that's what I get for being better with numbers than words.

[Caroline and Dave]

No one gets free cell phones here when they sign a mobile contract -- the phones typically cost hundreds of dollars. "Free" stuff, privileges, and add-ons that Americans take for granted simply don't exist here.



All my family have free phones and just pay for the contract plus excess calls. We get a certain amount of calls plus texts in with the monthly charge
See here

https://store.vodafone.co.nz/allMobiles.aspx

[Jolie]

All my family have free phones and just pay for the contract plus excess calls. We get a certain amount of calls plus texts in with the monthly charge

Thanks for that link! I wish they'd had those kinds of deals available a couple of years ago when I paid $350+ for my Vodafone!

[JoHnH]

Jolie:

"I have no agenda here -- other than to make sure that Americans considering moving to NZ do so with their eyes wide open..."

Sorry, I don't buy it. Your original post, a mixture of errors and exaggerations - since corrected by several people here - would convince any uninformed American that there were no possible benefits to be gained by moving here.

"I have to say that I love NZ, and I will quite likely never move back to the U.S." seems to be illogically at odds with your exhaustive litany of criticisms. It would be enlightening to learn what it is that you love, in view of how much you dislike.

"I've seen the posts from numerous families who had to move back to the U.K. and the U.S., simply because they couldn't make ends meet here ..."

I've seen a few posts like that on this forum, but more by those who have found separation from what they know the deciding emotional rather than financial factor in their choice. And just from reading your posts one would never guess at the huge number of posts here, often of the "one year in" variety, by people who have been happy with their move.

It is not a matter of great importance. The number of Americans immigrating here is miniscule compared with the numbers from the UK, Europe and Asia (the last do not feature largely on this forum, for obvious reasons.) So even though we're told NZ needs skilled migrants, there's little lost if you succeed, by "damning with faint praise," in persuading your compatriots to avoid this impoverished third-world hellhole.

One does wonder about your real motives however.

[Jolie]

John, I find your insistence that I have some sort of "ulterior" motive in writing what I've posted to be quite puzzling, but frankly, it says a lot more about your issues than it does about mine.

There are MANY posts on here about how wonderful life is in New Zealand. I love it here in NZ and agree with much of what's in those posts, but because they exist I don't NEED to echo them. What DOES need to be said are the negative things which are very important to consider, but are rarely posted here. I spent a great deal of time, thought, and effort on my posts, and I didn't do it so I could rain on someone's parade. I did it because I frequently see the same myths repeated here over and over again by Brits and Americans, and feel that it's important for those people to get a balanced perspective.

You're not even an American -- why do you feel compelled to critique what I have to say?

Those of you on here who insist on taking others' posts as personal attacks just mystify me. If you don't like my posts, ignore them. But attacking me and my motivations is completely uncalled-for.

[JPOnion]

La-la-la-la, I can't hear you, Jolie. Stop ruining my kiwi dream :(

...

I kid, and no I'm not mocking those who find problems with what you post. I personally find all opinions welcome, and the more accurate information out there (good news or bad news) the better to make an informed decision. And I agree, it's good to hear all the great stuff, but I do want to know all the negatives as well. It's how I usually try to research stuff, actually...when buying something online, for instance, I always gravitate towards the bad reviews first to see what it is people don't like. Somehow it always tends to put all the positives I read about next in perspective, and then the positives put the negatives into perspective. Heck, I first started my NZ research on a forum dedicated to warning people of NZ, so I've heard some of these (and more!) before.

I am glad to see that some of the negatives you listed seemed to have changed recently.

If you were just starting out as a young person in the U.S., ... , it is entirely possible that your standard of living is higher here in NZ.

Oh goodie, that's me. :raebanana One of the reasons I want to do it now is because I just graduated and just started my career. If I wait to go in a few more years time, or after that, then I'd probably have progressed in my career and have more incentive to stick with what I've built up. A higher standard of living would have gone with that, too. No...better to do it now, I think. I might have to start in an entry level position, but at least there's a much better chance of it being a step sideways instead of a step down.

[sweetpea]

There are MANY posts on here about how wonderful life is in New Zealand. I love it here in NZ and agree with much of what's in those posts, but because they exist I don't NEED to echo them. What DOES need to be said are the negative things which are very important to consider, but are rarely posted here. I spent a great deal of time, thought, and effort on my posts, and I didn't do it so I could rain on someone's parade. I did it because I frequently see the same myths repeated here over and over again by Brits and Americans, and feel that it's important for those people to get a balanced perspective.

Well said, Jolie. I have to wonder, too, why people are willing to assign ulterior motives to someone who has spent a lot of time and effort to inform people of some things that they may not otherwise be aware of.

I too, had it in my head that the limit for duty-free import was $150. I'm glad they raised it! I did have a $600 laptop that I took a risk on and had sent earlier this year, luckily without problem. I have heard that Customs is more likely to levy a duty/GST on items sent FedEx, rather than US Mail.

I think you are right in saying that (if I'm paraphrasing you correctly) that people who are solidly upper-middle class in the US will generally find their standard of living drop in NZ. I agree. I mean, I'm not happy that there are haves and have-nots in the US, but if you are one of the haves, things are pretty good, and you will be more comfortable if you remain in the US. Of course, some people may want adventure, or something else from NZ, and that's cool. But I think it is important to know that tradeoffs may need to be made, and for people to understand upfront what those tradeoffs may be.

[Jolie]

Thank you, Sweetpea, for understanding what I'm trying to say, and for taking it in the spirit which it's intended.

I've been a member here for over 3 years, and one of the things that hasn't changed in all that time is that the people who live elsewhere and see NZ through rose-coloured glasses, and the people who live in NZ without any major problems, stomp all over anyone who ever dares to voice something negative.

This is certainly NOT in the best interests of the people who are trying to decide whether to move to NZ, and it really infuriates me. If I'd made the decision to move here and hadn't been able to get this information anywhere before I came, I'd have been in for a huge shock, and I would have been extremely upset about not having such important information available to me.

[granger]

Jolie, Okay, so Caroline and Dave have brought you up to date on cell phones, but I should add that a mate of mine told me he was on a plan with a free cellphone from TelecomNZ over 5 years ago!

It's amusing that in your first post you were issuing dire warnings about mail-order 'extortion' based once more on an out-of-date/non-existent internet link. And what a surprisingly 'forceful' choice of word 'extortion!!' is but I suppose it was in line with the rest of the post.

I'm happy to reassure everyone again that they won't have to pay GST on Amazon orders unless they spend more than $400 per order.

I think that while it's important not to exaggerate the charms of New Zealand, it's also important not to exaggerate the drawbacks either - as I believe you have done. People are reading these posts seeking better lives. Negative information is much more powerful than positive information. Most people seem to be influenced to a greater degree by negative information than positive information. So it's just as important, if not more so, to be accurate when you're focusing on the downside. Otherwise you might end up needlessly destroying someone's chance of a better life. The great majority of migrants are happy they moved to New Zealand. That's something to bear in mind when compiling a list of 'downs' of which a good proportion seem to be inaccurate. And no, your post isn't unique in focusing on the downside. There are plenty of posts reflecting the downside too. Sweetpea has dozens to her credit I'm sure. :laugh

[Moorf]

I've been a member here for over 3 years, and one of the things that hasn't changed in all that time is that the people who live elsewhere and see NZ through rose-coloured glasses, and the people who live in NZ without any major problems, stomp all over anyone who ever dares to voice something negative.





Your posts have been great and your views, while questioned, haven't been stomped over. No matter whether on this forum, or others, this sort of thread is often spoiled by statements such as the one above.

Your insinuation, as I have taken it, that members of this forum (people who invest a lot of their time helping, advising and supporting other members through good and bad, on and offline) are conspiring to keep a lid on negative opinions/facts etc then you are very, very badly mistaken.

Can we get the discussion back on track and leave the rose-tinted conspiracy theories out of it?

[Jolie]

Sorry, Moorf, I have to disagree with you. I think the things I've said have been realistic -- not exaggerated.
Yet I've been castigated by numerous members for my posts, just because what I said disagrees with their worldview -- as well as being subjected to at least one overt personal attack.

And I certainly haven't claimed that there's any conspiracy to "keep a lid" on negative information. A conspiracy is a collusion by two or more people to achieve a common aim. Your attempt to trivialise my concerns by ridiculing them as a conspiracy theory is a pretty unworthy tactic, don't you think?

I just note that any time someone posts something negative on here, there are always a number of people who jump on them, claiming that they're being excessively negative, claiming that they're trying to scare prospective migrants off, claiming that they're sour on NZ and trying to make other people feel that way, too, blah, blah, blah.

When was the last time you saw forum members jump on someone for posting something positive?

[Moorf]

You said:

any time someone posts something negative on here, there are always a number of people who jump on them,

You also said:

the people who live elsewhere and see NZ through rose-coloured glasses, and the people who live in NZ without any major problems, stomp all over anyone who ever dares to voice something negative.

A conspiracy is a collusion by two or more people to achieve a common aim.

Please correct me if I came to the wrong conclusion but you are saying that, every time someone posts something negative many people "stomp" on them. From that I thought you were implying that perhaps as a forum we didn't like negative comments and therefore, by our jumping and stomping, conspired or colluded to achieve that common aim to keep negatives out?

I've just re-read this long-running thread and Americans have contributed both good and bad points throughout and there was no jumping on anyone. Your post, from what I can see, stirred up some members - and you shouldn't have been in the least surprised with their responses if, as you say, you've been following this forum for years.

[Jolie]

Not surprised, Moorf. Just disappointed.

It would be nice to think that at some point, people could get past engaging in that sort of behaviour.

[granger]

Jolie, most of the comments have been addressed at the accuracy of your claims. Do you think everyone should be duty bound to stay quiet on factual inaccuracies just because they are contained in a post whose overall tone is negative? I think factual inaccuracies will lead to corrections whether they are contained in a positive or negative post.

[Moorf]

But I've been dismayed at the amount of grossly inaccurate information presented as well.

When you start a post with the above line, and are then found to have posted inaccuracies, you will annoy people. Especially when, as far as I can see/remember, you haven't really had much previous interaction (under the name Jolie, at least) and come like a bolt from the blue.

Not everyone writes flowery, reasoning posts, either, they say what they think - that's not unwelcome behaviour as long as their language is clean. Being told you are wrong, or that someone here also living the life and buying groceries doesn't agree with your opinions, also isn't unacceptable behaviour.

I believe I repped your first post just after you wrote it, I thought you'd put in lots of time and effort and that it was very knowledgeable.

[Jolie]

If anything's been exaggerated, I think it's the amount of inaccuracies in my posts.

It's nice to know that a free cell phone can be gotten in NZ, under certain conditions. It's certainly not as easy to get one here as it is was in the States when I left there a couple of years ago. And that doesn't change the fact that America's culture of "freebies" -- free items, privileges, and services that are everywhere there, doesn't culturally exist in NZ. I have yet to find a bank here that offers no-fee checking accounts to the little guy who doesn't have thousands and thousands of dollars in the bank. That's something most Americans take for granted.

$150 or $400 -- the new, higher amount of an allowed import before GST is charged is very helpful. But migrants need to know that such a surcharge exists on orders placed elsewhere and shipped into NZ -- *I* didn't know about it before I got here.

I'm sure that some people are able to buy food less expensively here. But the vast amount of Americans I know who are here say the same thing that I do -- overall, food is generally more expensive than in the States (although, strangely, restaurants are not).

And having my integrity and motivations questioned just because someone disagrees with what I have to say -- well, that IS a personal attack. It's uncalled-for, and I don't appreciate it.

Isn't it funny how people who can't put forth a rational counter-argument have to result to personal attacks, like "Jolie seems to be more interested in spilling his/her glass out on the floor"?

[wilson182]

I have yet to find a bank here that offers no-fee checking accounts to the little guy who doesn't have thousands and thousands of dollars in the bank. That's something most Americans take for granted.



Westpac (if you dont have paper statements), and New Zealand Home loans are the ones I know of.

HTH

[Jolie]

Westpac (if you dont have paper statements), and New Zealand Home loans are the ones I know of.

I have one of Westpac's so-called "no-fee" checking accounts. It costs me $9.95 a month.

:roll

[wilson182]

I had an elect account and paid no fees at all. I did all my banking online though, I wonder if thats the difference

[able]

Isn't it funny how people who can't put forth a rational counter-argument have to result to personal attacks


I've been reading through the opinions on this interesting thread. I enjoyed reading your first post too. You obviously put a lot of effort into it. I've got to say that when you began the post with "But I've been dismayed at the amount of grossly inaccurate information presented as well" you started out by making an attack on lots of other people who have also been writing in good faith. It leapt out at me when I read it. You were helping set up a certain type of atmosphere. Then leaving a rolling eye symbol for wilson182 for adding helpful information to the forum doesn't help either. It does take two to tango and the face you show to the mirror can often be mighty similar to the one that looks back at you. ;)

Putting that aside, as I said, I did enjoy reading your post. I'd like to move things on from where they are, which is going nowhere fast, by asking if I could hear your take on New Zealand's positive side. I'll know that I'm not getting a "rose-tinted" view. :nice1

[ellenmelon]

i have a fee free account with TSB (taranaki savings bank) but i'm not sure is it available "to everyone" (i'm from taranaki, have had an account in one form or another with them since i was 5). i know kiwibank have a personal bank account service where you pay $5 a month and you get a lot for that.

you can get cellphones for less than $150 if you're on prepay with telecom, for example. free if you sign up on a contract. mobiles will continue to be expensive when there is only a couple of companies who don't feel the need to be competitive.

[Jolie]

Okay, here's the good stuff about New Zealand from my point of view. Please stop me when I get too negative for you, okay?

One or two weekends a month I go scuba-diving. Usually it's only about a 2-4 hour drive to get to some great dive spots (one of them ranked by Jacques Cousteau as one of the Top 10 Dive Spots in the world!). There's a $100-130 cost for each day of diving, but I'm usually able to carpool with one or two other divers, so the petrol cost isn't too bad, and minimal accommodation can be had for $25-50 a night. The marine life is absolutely amazing. The Poor Knights are at the bottom end of a warm Pacific current which brings down eggs from the Tropics, so I see fish there which wouldn't ordinarily be native to NZ. I've gotten to dive on the Rainbow Warrior. It's not uncommon for dolphins to come out and greet dive boats. I once had a pod of dolphins swim up to me underwater whilst I was diving (which I am assured by other divers is quite a rarity). I've visited the Antarctic Penguin colony in a SnoCat at Kelly Tarlton's Marine World, and gone diving with the huge sharks and rays in their shark tank.

If I don't want to go diving, I can go surfing. It's anywhere from 1/2 to 1 hour to some really great surfing spots -- or I can rent a windsurfer and go out on the bay. I've gotten to work the sails and the grinders whilst sailing on one of the NZ America's Cup yachts. I've done a nighttime dinner cruise and sailing tour of the Auckland Harbour.

Auckland also has some great bike and running paths. The early city managers were very wise and set aside huge protected tracts of parkland (Domains), frequently on and around volcano calderas, and these are open to the public for free for picnics and running. The Auckland Domain has an incredible set of greenhouses (the Wintergardens) open free to the public which are in bloom year-round. There's a Butterfly Garden here too.

At nicer times of the year, I have a selection of festivals to attend. There's a fabulous sculpture exhibition on the North Shore every two years. Last year there was an awesome sculpture exhibition at the Botanical Gardens, hopefully they'll do that again this year. Every year there's a "Garden Safari" on Waiheke Island, where people with fabulously landscaped gardens open them up to the tour. I rent a car with a friend and we stop at the Olive Festival and listen to live music whilst we're making the rounds of the tour. There are various music festivals over the course of the year. There's a wine festival here too, but I think it's more fun to visit the wineries for tastings. There are several wineries in the Auckland area, and I've done wine-tasting tours in Marlborough, Hawkes Bay, and Otago.

I've been to a lot of museums in various parts of the world, and Auckland War Memorial Museum and Te Papa in Wellington are among the best -- the way items are presented is varied and quite interesting. Excellent shows come through the country at any time of year -- ballet, symphony, theatre, rock bands and pop performers. It may not be NYC, but there's enough of it to please the average person. You can walk up Parnell road on Tues and Weds evenings, and visit the quite numerous art galleries and enjoy nibbles for free.

I've been bungy-jumping and paragliding in Queenstown, and I look forward to going skiing there (hopefully next year). There's also skiing on the North Island at Ruapehu -- it's not quite as good, but it's a drivable distance from Auckland on a weekend, especially if it's a 3-day weekend. I've toured the incredible Botanic Gardens in Christchurch and Wellington -- off-season, they're still something to see, but in-season, they're spectacular. I've done the overnight cruise of Milford Sound, and watched the fabulous waterfalls cascading off the cliffs nearby whilst seals frolicked on the rocks nearby and dolphins rode our boat's bow wave.

I've seen the amazing Pancake Rocks at Punakaiki, and marveled at the spout of spray from the blowhole. I've crawled inside a Moeraki Boulder. I've kayaked in Abel Tasman National Park. I've heli-hiked on Fox Glacier. There is whale-viewing at Kaikoura, so reliable that you can see whales around 360 days a year.

I've toured the amazing glowworm caves at Waitomo, then gone back to my "hotel room" -- a vintage railway passenger car. I've toured a real castle -- with fabulous gardens -- in Dunedin, then visited the albatross and penguin colonies there. I've climbed to the top of the War Memorial Tower in Wanganui. I've seen the incredible geothermal pools and formations at Rotorua and Wairakei, toured the Maraes there, and witnessed Maori cultural rituals. I've visited the Waitangi Treaty Grounds and Museum, and seen the huge Kauri forests.

Compared to the U.S., where you often have to plan a year ahead, shell out for airline tickets, and take a week or two off work for a similar kind of holiday, there are a lot of amazing places and activities that you can do on a weekend -- any weekend.

As long as you have enough disposable income to take advantage of it, New Zealand is an absolutely incredible place to live. If you're able to make moving to NZ a workable proposition for you financially, I highly recommend it.

:cheers

[yuutamichael]

It's true those of us who do really enjoy our lives here have a hard time relating to people who complain about New Zealand. I'm sure Jolie and Sweetpea have found things in New Zealand that they genuinely find worthy of complaint. That said don't get insulted by other people's tone in their reactions to you. Your own post, Jolie, started out a little on the accusatory/abrasive side.

For me, I here some of these complaints made about New Zealand and I just can't relate at all. It's confusing to me. I think we'd be more comfortable hearing about your particulars than blanket statements that standards of living are likely to go down, etc. If you're having trouble, I think we'd like to know a lot more particulars so that other people can make better decisions because I can say right now that a lot of negative statements being made don't apply to everyone.

I'd be curious to hear from Jolie and Sweetpea, and some of the other people who have been a little more vocally negative, a few more specifics of your situations here. I've gleamed things from posts but I might be wrong. If I've guessed correctly though then I could see why things might be a little tougher here than they are in the States.

I've got the feeling that a lot of people complaining have made radical changes to their lives when they came here. For instance anyone moving from Portland (Maine or Oregon) to Eketahuna are probably going to have a hard time about it. Places like Auckland, Central Wellington, Christchurch and Queenstown are probably going to offer a higher standard of living and better pay.

Still a lot of complaints don't seem to be completely synchronized with what a lot of Americans are experiencing. Mostly I don't see people attacking just feeling that your complaints aren't quite on. Here's where I see disparities.

Wages Wages everywhere in the world aren't matching inflation right now, New Zealand's not unique in this regard. In fact the disparity between the richest and poorest is actually going down here. Wage comparisons vary A LOT though depending on what kind of job you have. If you're in Early Childhood Education you'll be making a lot more here than in the States. If you're in IT you can probably manage to make a lot more here. If you're working low wage jobs in the States then New Zealand is great because you'll be getting better wages plus health care and retirement. Plus the opportunities to upskill here in New Zealand are much greater than they are in the States. If you're a doctor or a CEO I imagine you'd probably make more in the States.

Retirement There is a retirement plan here in New Zealand and it's pretty decent. Kiwisaver will leave most retirees decently off (4% from you, 4% from your employer and the government matches your contributions up to $1000 every year).

This is a topic specifically for Americans and I can say that all the complaints made by Jolie about retirement in New Zealand could be translated nearly directly to America where many people have no retirement savings at all. Jolie implied that people may think that once they moved to New Zealand they wouldn't need to save for retirement. Did anyone here think that? Did you think that Jolie? Did anyone ever imply that? I think good advice would be for everyone, everywhere in the world to save for retirement. I don't know a single country where it's not encouraged.

Banking Accounts I'm pretty sure Kiwi Bank has a zero fees account now. I thought I saw that on TV just tonight in fact. Maybe I'm wrong.

Food Selection This came up in one post and it made me twinge. In New Zealand there's less "Lite" or Reduced Fat food items here. That's a good thing. Lite and Reduced fat are generally a lie. In the States these types of foods are pumped full of chemicals to compensate. Eat the regular stuff (assuming it's not already pumped full of chemicals) and just eat less or work out more. Prepackaged foods aren't something to miss, they're something to be liberated from!

Duty on Imported Goods This can be much more random than you'd think. I've received gifts from the States worth much more than $400 and not had to pay any fees. Other expensive purchases have not been assessed. That said, smaller $400+ purchases sometimes are charged GST.

But again, you're just paying the equivalent of GST, this protects the local economy and encourages regular importers to set up shop. If you can get something that much cheaper in the States perhaps we should all open up an importer and make bank.

Cars Cars and gas cost more, it's true. This is a genuine area of complaint. Where I disagree with you is that Auckland has a genuine and nearly crippling public transit problem. One of the two things that I would complain about is surprisingly dismissed in your post. That makes me realize that we all have very different experiences here. I'd encourage everyone to get involved any way they can to make public transit here better, write in to your local regional transit authority or your MP. Auckland needs extensive light rail, public infrastructure is a fascination for me and it's something that's fairly easy to get involved in an help effect policy.

Houses I did realize one complaint that I'd warn all people coming from the States to consider. Before renting or buying a house understand the climate of New Zealand. It gets cold here in the winter. Really cold. This past winter has been one of the worst but any winter, even north of Auckland, can be freezing. If you're renting it can be ridiculously expensive to heat a house so pick someplace that has compensated for that. Those cute little wooden houses can be a nightmare to heat so keep that in mind. There are great warmer places and the government is putting a $1 billion fund to insulate all houses but in the mean time don't get stuck paying $350+ a month from June to September in some cute but drafty wooden house like I did, and even then struggling to stay warm. For some reason houses in New Zealand are built as if there 15 degrees latitude further north.

Finally, I would encourage everyone moving here to try it out first, if at all possible. This is probably easier for the younger people where working holiday visas are an option and they're not straddled with existing debts and property. I couldn't imaging moving all the way over here for good without easing in to it the way I did. Maybe cutting all ties in your home countries is a mistake before you're sure this is the place for you for the rest of your lives. That way it's not a tragedy if you end up having to move back if you don't like it here. Chalk it all up to experience.

Thinking about it, sometimes it's nice to feel as if I'm the only American in the village (that line is probably quite stale now). So don't move here. You'll hate it. The grass is less green... and the ravaging bands of howling moa keep us up at night as they stalk the neighborhood searching for fresh blood. Yeah, that's it.