[Moorf]

It is used mainly by young Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans coming to Britain to work and as a base to explore Europe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/21/nvisa121.xml

Interesting....

[incredible hulse]

Not sure why it's lasted this long.

[Kiwi-In-Texas]

Very interesting reading.

[neilw71]

Auntie Helen is not happy about it :)

I wonder if there will be any tit-for-tat changes to the Residency Visa scheme over here if it goes ahead?

Neil

[willsken]

Hey, it's the UK looking for the easy targets as usual - what more can you say? :roll :roll

[JandM]

That's disgusting and ridiculous. I haven't seen much publicity about it here in the UK. Maybe I'll write to some local papers.

[Jo Jo]

For anyone interested, this is what the Green Paper* (http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/aboutus/consultations/pathtocitizenship/) says:

129. We also need to determine the position of the ‘UK ancestry’ and ‘retired persons of independent means’ routes within the new system.

130. The UK ancestry provisions were introduced in 1972 and allow a Commonwealth citizen, aged 17 or over, to come to the UK provided he is able to show that one of his grandparents was born in the UK and that he intends to take or seek employment in the UK. This route currently provides an avenue to settlement after five years, in line with existing employment routes. Those entering under the UK ancestry route have free access to the labour market on entry. Given that the proposed immigration system provides explicit routes to the UK for those coming as economic migrants, family members or refugees, we need to decide whether a Commonwealth national’s ancestral connections to the UK are sufficient to allow them to come here to work without the need to satisfy a resident labour market test. We are therefore asking this question as part of the consultation contained within this paper. We will take the results of the consultation exercise into account before coming to a decision.

(Highlighting mine.)

It was printed in the same-size print as everything else, by the way, not small print as the Telegraph says!


*The term "Green Paper" has no formal definition. However, Green Papers generally put forward ideas and opinions for consideration, public discussion and consultation.

[incredible hulse]

That's disgusting and ridiculous. I haven't seen much publicity about it here in the UK. Maybe I'll write to some local papers.

Can't see the problem myself. Their only link to the country appears to be a grandparent who didn't want to live in the UK. If there is a requirement to restrict inwards migration of economic migrants this is just a valid as stopping others and should be closed accordingly. Whilst they're at it they should also start enforcing the labour rules of the working holiday visa as the likes of Oz and NZ do, and make such agreements on the same terms reciprocally

[mish&al]

I know a couple of people that did it here, and one girl from Rangiora that I travelled with who had a passport via her English dad.

When I went on the working holiday in 1993, I had to apply from here for a 2 year working visa, and my 2 friends I went with had their passports. Hence I had to return home within that 2 years, and they could (and one did!) stay longer.

I tried it with an Irish passport, but I had to have an Irish grandparent, not great grandparent.

[granger]

Links between countries? How about a shared head of state to begin with. Then there's the Union Flag in both the NZ and Oz flags, the shared democratic values, the shared ancestry. The shared language.

In fact, the people Britain's civil service apparatchiks are thinking about denying visas to the UK have a lot more in common with the UK than most economic migrants from the EU who arrive in the UK in much, much larger numbers.... with no barriers whatsoever.

Now it may be that one day the UK, NZ and Oz will have less in common than today. But that day isn't here yet and I don't think the UK should be looking to loosen ties by removing the ancestry visa from Aussies and Kiwis - a great many of whom still look to the UK as the "motherland" the place their family came from originally and a place they would like to visit and work in for a few years.

[Potato]

Links between countries? How about a shared head of state to begin with. Then there's the Union Flag in both the NZ and Oz flags, the shared democratic values, the shared ancestry. The shared language.

Yes, given these shared links, perhaps NZ should stump up some concessions to British migrants to make it easier or cheaper for us. An ancestry visa would be irrelevant, but at the moment when it comes to residency as you can see here we don't get any special treatment at all. If NZ so greatly desires maintaining the status quo for OEs then I think they should consider a little bit of give-and-take.

In fact, the people Britain's civil service apparatchiks are thinking about denying visas to the UK have a lot more in common with the UK than most economic migrants from the EU who arrive in the UK in much, much larger numbers.... with no barriers whatsoever.

I don't understand why everyone always moans about this. It's not as if the British civil service can deny visas to Europeans. They don't need visas. The EU exists, we're in it for good, and free movement of workers is one of the foundations. It's not as if anyone can control the number of Poles coming in.

Now it may be that one day the UK, NZ and Oz will have less in common than today. But that day isn't here yet and I don't think the UK should be looking to loosen ties by removing the ancestry visa from Aussies and Kiwis - a great many of whom still look to the UK as the "motherland" the place their family came from originally and a place they would like to visit and work in for a few years.

Pffff, I don't think most young kiwis look at Britain as "The Motherland". It's just a chance to scoot off and earn some money in a different culture.
It's my opinion that having a grandparent from Britain is not that meaningful. I'm amazed that any kiwi with a British grandparent can get into the UK for a few years, even if they would fail normal immigration requirements.

So they want to work in a different culture? Experience a different lifestyle? So did I, when I came to NZ. The difference is that I had to be checked for having TB (despite never having spent anytime in South Auckland), Syphilis (for God's sake- this is the laughing stock of every doctor in NZ), asked to confirm my English language skills (from an NZIS officer who couldn't even spell my name), and pay up heaps of money for the privilege. And for kiwis going to the UK? Oh, don't worry about that. Having a dead grandparent who you may never have even met but yet was born in Bournemouth is enough to come in. It's a joke!

Does Ancestry really mean that much? We don't live in Middle Earth here. I, Keith of Twizel, Grandson of Dave from Watford, request the right to work in your country for 5 years as a barman.

Sure thing, in you go.

Ancestry Visas are outdated and just a sneaky way to get into the UK. Good luck to all those who can get them. I know if I were in their situation I would do it. I believe you should take such opportunities that comes your way, even if I don't believe it's "right". Yes, this is a hypocritical point of view I know.

[granger]

Yes, given these shared links, perhaps NZ should stump up some concessions to British migrants to make it easier or cheaper for us.

Actually, it does. Limits on working holiday visas to young UK passport holders were abolished some time back. This doesn't apply to all countries and the age groups for ancestry and whv tend to be similar. So the UK is getting a concession that most countries don't get.


I don't understand why everyone always moans about this. It's not as if the British civil service can deny visas to Europeans.

I'm not moaning about it at and I'm not asking them to. I'm saying that I disagree with the proposal to put an end to the ancestry visa for people who have more in common with the UK in terms of language, head of state,historic and family links etc than the average EU migrant does.


Pffff, I don't think most young kiwis look at Britain as "The Motherland".


I didn't say most. I did say a great many. I've talked to plenty of Kiwis who although they don't go around shouting about it acknowledge their British roots and family and do think of the UK as their "motherland". I've also met others who don't.

I hope Kiwis with British connections will continue to be offered the ancestry visa as a way to live in and work in the UK for a long time to come and that the historic links between the countries remain strong. :clap

[Peter&Liz]

Those ancestral ties were good enough for the UK to use in 1914 & 1939 when we in the motherland needed their best and brightest to come to our aid.

Peter

[Potato]

Actually, it does. Limits on working holiday visas to young UK passport holders were abolished some time back. This doesn't apply to all countries and the age groups for ancestry and whv tend to be similar. So the UK is getting a concession that most countries don't get.


This is hardly equivalent though.

The Ancestry Visa is for 5 years (or 4?).
The WHV is for 2 years (of which you can only work for 12 months!). You also need a chest x-ray for this.
The Ancestry Visa allows the person to apply for residency at the end.
The WHV does not (you go through the same process as everyone else).

The UK Ancestry Visa gives a much better deal to NZ'ers than the NZ WHV does to Brits.

[granger]

The UK Ancestry Visa gives a much better deal to NZ'ers than the NZ WHV does to Brits.

It depends on your point of view. A Kiwi must have a family connection with the UK to qualify for a visa. A Brit can get a whv without any family connection in NZ.

Besides I don't think there's any need for the systems in the two countries to be identical at this time. I think it's right that Britain should offer anyone whose recent ancestry is British a way back into the UK. There isn't really an equivalent situation for New Zealand although if there was I would also favour New Zealand offering a way for people with recent New Zealand ancestry a way of getting back into New Zealand.

I agree with you Peter.

[ellenmelon]

when things like this happen (we knew it was coming in some form or another) im sooo glad that i have my irish passport. i see friends and aquaintances who pretty much settle over there (be it the uk or other euro countries) and then have to leave again...whereas i can stay as long as i like. all thanks to the foresight of my poppa getting my dads citizenship so his future grandkids could benefit.

[Potato]

It depends on your point of view. A Kiwi must have a family connection with the UK to qualify for a visa. A Brit can get a whv without any family connection in NZ.

Errrr, but if you're a Kiwi without a family connection you can just apply for a two year UK WHV anyway.
The Ancestry Visa offers an easy route into the UK, and there is no equivalent for Brits who want to work in NZ, and no leeway given to British citizens applying for work permits or residency.


I think it's right that Britain should offer anyone whose recent ancestry is British a way back into the UK.

And I don't. "Back" into the UK? You make it sound as if they came from there.

There isn't really an equivalent situation for New Zealand although if there was I would also favour New Zealand offering a way for people with recent New Zealand ancestry a way of getting back into New Zealand.


An NZ Ancestry Visa for Brits would hardly be worth setting up. It would be preferable to make small concessions to all Brits seeking residence/work in NZ, as opposed to making a large concession to a small number (as is the case with the Ancestry Visa). This is just because there is no equivalent situation in NZ.

My point is that even though Britain pulled away from the Commonwealth back in the 1970s, we still retain this Ancestry Visa as a nod to the ties. New Zealand, on the otherhand, offers nothing at all in return.

Personally, I do feel some bitterness to the whole process. Why does NZ make it so difficult for Brits who want to reside here? Britain provides a service to many New Zealanders with this Ancestry Visa. It's clearly important to NZ as a whole, or else Helen Clark would not have weighed in there with her opinion. In return, us Brits get nothing. Even something small like knocking money off the application fees for all British applicants would be a kind gesture and would be enough to acknowledge the old ties.
Right now, I just don't understand how a 23 year old kiwi could enter the UK without a job offer, police check or medical and live and work there for 5 years- simply because of having a British grandparent.
And then there's me, a 23 year old Brit, put through the ringer when entering NZ. I tell you, I really felt the ties of the commonwealth during the process. I may aswell have been from Mexico for goodness' sake.

From what I can tell, all good deals that Brits get in NZ are reciprocal:

2 year WHV - reciprocal
Free emergency medical treatment - reciprocal (with Aus also)
Able to visit for 6 months without a visa - reciprocal

So what exactly is NZ going to provide in order to be deserving of keeping the British Ancestry Visa? Obviously, nothing. It's just regarded as some sort of fundamental privilege earned on what I consider to be highly irrelevant grounds.
Basically it's saying that if you have a British grandparent then you can work in the UK even if you may have a criminal record, TB (or, heaven forbid- syphilis, since NZ seems so paranoid about it) or not even have a job offer (though apparently you have to prove that you've tried looking for work). How does British ancestry trump other, far more important, issues about a potential migrant? The simple truth is that it doesn't. It's completely outdated and has no place in the modern world.

[Jo Jo]

It depends on your point of view. A Kiwi must have a family connection with the UK to qualify for a visa. A Brit can get a whv without any family connection in NZ.

That's not strictly true. Kiwis have to have at least one grandparent who was a British Citizen in order to qualify for the Ancestry Visa (or Granny Pass, as many call it), but Kiwis with no family connections in the UK can apply for other types of visa, such as a work permit. There is also a working holiday visa for the UK, which is similar to the UK to NZ WHV, and you don't have to have a family connection with the UK to apply for that.

The Ancestry Visa was introduced because Britain changed the rules on citizenship for members of the Commonwealth (as a result of certain Commonwealth countries introducing their own Citizenship laws). Before the laws were changed, migration to the UK from the Commonwealth was unrestricted (and vice versa) because all citizens of Commonwealth countries were British subjects. So, at the time of the last war, Kiwis, Aussies and all other Commonwealth citizens were British subjects anyway.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the Ancestry Visa. On the one hand, I like it because having moved to NZ, I would like to think that if I ever have any grandchildren they would be able to easily move to the UK. (Plus, my husband travelled to the UK on an Ancestry Visa, and if it hadn't existed we may never have met...) But on the other hand, I don't like the fact that it is not reciprocal, i.e. that NZ doesn't have the same visa.

In the interests of fairness, I think I'd like it to be abolished, or to only be retained for citizens of countries that offer a reciprocal arrangement.

[JandM]

Apart from working considerations (though of course we all have to have a way of supporting ourselves), don't forget the family ones. Some posters appear to be writing off a grandparental link as nothing worth bothering about. That's what I find disgusting. Because that grandparent didn't spring from nowhere, and kinship should be respected.

If I imagine my father had emigrated as a 25-year-old (picking on him because I know details of his relations better than I do those of the previous generation), he'd've left behind four brothers and eight nieces and nephews, not to mention three uncles and an aunt, and his nine cousins and their children. He was very fond of most of those people, and would've kept in touch with some by letter. Any grandchild of his would have a warm welcome among their relatives. Although we're spread across the country, I still know where second- and third-cousins are, and would make up a bed for any of them.

[Potato]

Some posters appear to be writing off a grandparental link as nothing worth bothering about.

It's not "nothing worth bothering about", it's just entirely irrelevant in terms of what a person can offer when they come over to the UK to work. Some people find their ancestry important, others don't. But it surely can't be important enough to be allowed into a country to live and work for five years without having to satisfy any strict immigration requirements.

That's what I find disgusting. Because that grandparent didn't spring from nowhere, and kinship should be respected.

Kinship should be respected, but the Ancestry Visa isn't about respecting, it's about exploiting.

Any grandchild of his would have a warm welcome among their relatives. Although we're spread across the country, I still know where second- and third-cousins are, and would make up a bed for any of them.

But for five years?
You find my attitude disgusting, I find yours airy fairy. You're talking about impressive ties with fairly distant relatives. What does any of this have to do with letting a person work in the country for a long period? Because they have a large number of relatives living there? This is the 21st century. I'm sure these relatives would hardly be distraught if the person came over "only" for a 2-year WHV and then had to return home at the end of it. Or even just a visit for a holiday. Why on Earth should the person be allowed to stay for 5 years without having to prove they are of any worth to the country?

[JandM]

Potato, you've stated your thoughts, and I've stated mine. I'm not interested in trying to get adherents by having an argument about it. Either of us could say 'surely' for years about different things without convincing the other. We think differently about this - so be it.

[Potato]

Potato, you've stated your thoughts, and I've stated mine. I'm not interested in trying to get adherents by having an argument about it. Either of us could say 'surely' for years about different things without convincing the other. We think differently about this - so be it.

I agree. We have very different viewpoints, no sense dragging it out.

[JandM]

:cheers That's the kind of agreement that matters.:)

[Tia Maria]

Jo Jo wrote:

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the Ancestry Visa. On the one hand, I like it because having moved to NZ, I would like to think that if I ever have any grandchildren they would be able to easily move to the UK. (Plus, my husband travelled to the UK on an Ancestry Visa, and if it hadn't existed we may never have met...) But on the other hand, I don't like the fact that it is not reciprocal, i.e. that NZ doesn't have the same visa.

This is an interesting point for a lot of people migrating to NZ, the ability for their grandchildren to easily work/live in the UK.

Personally, having read what has been written by everyone, (very interesting discussion by the way!), I think an Ancestry Visa is a slightly outdated concept. I would prefer it if they generally made it easier for people to live and work elsewhere. Simpler (cheaper?) working visas with extended time lines for citizenship (5 years plus) seem to be a good way forward.

Programmes like BUNAC work really well for the whole OE idea.

Maybe a good compromise would be extra points on a work visa for ancestry links? This could work for all nationalities and not just for one country.

Cheers

Tia

[Jo Jo]

Maybe a good compromise would be extra points on a work visa for ancestry links? This could work for all nationalities and not just for one country.


I think that's what's being proposed.

[urban78]

There are interesting views from the NZ Herald readers regarding the subject:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501154&objectid=10493982

Jen :)

[Tia Maria]

I think that's what's being proposed.

Oh no I obviously think like a government/immigration official! :p

Are ancestry visas available to all members of the Commonwealth?

Current list, along with joining dates:

Antigua and Barbuda (1981)
Australia (1931[1])
Bahamas (1973)
Bangladesh (1972)
Barbados (1966)
Belize (1981)
Botswana (1966)
Brunei (1984)
Cameroon (1995)
Canada (1931)
Cyprus (1961)
Dominica (1978)
Gambia (1965)
Ghana (1957)
Grenada (1974)
Guyana (1966)
India (1947)
Jamaica (1962)
Kenya (1963)
Kiribati (1979)
Lesotho (1966)
Malawi (1964)
Malaysia (1957)
Maldives (1982)
Malta (1964)
Mauritius (1968)
Mozambique (1995)
Namibia (1990)
Nauru (1968)[2]
New Zealand (1931[3])
Nigeria (1960[4])
Papua New Guinea (1975)
Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983)
Saint Lucia (1979)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1979)
Samoa (1970)
Seychelles (1976)
Sierra Leone (1961)
Singapore (1965)
Solomon Islands (1978)
South Africa (1931[5])
Sri Lanka (1948)
Swaziland (1968)
Tanzania (1961)
Tonga (1970)
Trinidad and Tobago (1962)
Tuvalu (1978)
Uganda (1962)
United Kingdom (1931)
Vanuatu (1980)
Zambia (1964)

Cheers

Tia

[incredible hulse]

There are interesting views from the NZ Herald readers regarding the subject:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501154&objectid=10493982

Jen :)
Quite funny reading that; amazing how confused some seem to be in thinking that the UK are stopping the OE. Amazing also how patriotic kiwis suddenly become all loyal to the Queen when the chance to earn some sterling at reduced tax rates comes about.
Would be interested to read the Aussies take on this; seeing as they lump the UK in with every other nation for a 1 yr whv.

[Jo Jo]

Oh no I obviously think like a government/immigration official! :p


:D



Are ancestry visas available to all members of the Commonwealth?



Yes, they are.

[mish&al]

I can't tell you the Aussie's take on it, only my take on it as an Aussie.

The youngies these days don't seem to give a toss about an OE, they seem to be more keen to leg it up to Surfers Paradise for schoolies at then end of their schooling, and get tanked!

We didn't have schoolies, we scrimped and saved, and went OS, usually to London, to work, travel, er, get tanked, and then come back to go to uni or whatever.

I think most people use the ancestry as an easy way to get in, or to stay longer. It wasn't hard for me to get a WHV at all. The travel agent did it for me.

I didn't stay my two years, as I had already met The Kiwi, and wanted to get home to him..:raebanana

It's just a chance to scoot off and earn some money in a different culture.


You bet! But boy did I meet some great peoples, especially my extended time in Belfast..:cheers

[Lupin]

Just imagine what a beautiful place the world would be if we could all agree to differ like JandM and Potato :) :) :)

[Tia Maria]

Just imagine what a beautiful place the world would be if we could all agree to differ like JandM and Potato :) :)

I was just thinking what a thread killer this comment was. It could be powerful tool in the world of forums. :D :laugh

Cheers

Tia

[JandM]

I don't think the trolls and tired-and-emotionals on the other forum where I moderate actually care much about a beautiful world!:laugh

[tomo1340]

While I do think it should work both ways, perhaps the UK feels the need to make it up to NZ for effectively turning it's back on them when Uk entered the EU? Afterall up until that point the UK probably took more than 50% of the exports from NZ. Personally I think it is a shame, and obviously in todays 'climate change' debate having regular ship fulls of NZ exports travelling 12000 miles onto the UK marketplace would have some concerns, but I do think that needs to be weighed up against the trade that existed between 2 countries that effectively shared a more common bond than the UK's European partners. Then you have to facter in that NZ is the most isolated developed country in the world and it needs to export to survive so those ships are going to sail somewhere, whether it's the UK or Japan.

Saying that, I don't have room to comment first hand, I was born in 1978 and had very little connection to NZ until the last 5 years, I can only go on what I have heard and read. I recently borrowed a book from the local library about buying a house in NZ, in fact there is far much more to it than the title suggests and it goes into great detail about the history of NZ and the author even goes as far as to suggest that NZ'ers lived almost in luxery compared to todays standards up until the UK started importing from Europe. I can imagine many kiwi's might never have forgiven the UK for that.

Food for thought?

(I must re iterate that my opinion is biased towards the one sided information I have heard and read)

[oldest]

Because that grandparent didn't spring from nowhere, and kinship should be respected.


It is nice to see that other people also believe grandparents are important, especially now nucleated families are often a thing of the past.

[incredible hulse]

While I do think it should work both ways, perhaps the UK feels the need to make it up to NZ for effectively turning it's back on them when Uk entered the EU? Afterall up until that point the UK probably took more than 50% of the exports from NZ. Personally I think it is a shame, and obviously in todays 'climate change' debate having regular ship fulls of NZ exports travelling 12000 miles onto the UK marketplace would have some concerns, but I do think that needs to be weighed up against the trade that existed between 2 countries that effectively shared a more common bond than the UK's European partners. Then you have to facter in that NZ is the most isolated developed country in the world and it needs to export to survive so those ships are going to sail somewhere, whether it's the UK or Japan.

Saying that, I don't have room to comment first hand, I was born in 1978 and had very little connection to NZ until the last 5 years, I can only go on what I have heard and read. I recently borrowed a book from the local library about buying a house in NZ, in fact there is far much more to it than the title suggests and it goes into great detail about the history of NZ and the author even goes as far as to suggest that NZ'ers lived almost in luxery compared to todays standards up until the UK started importing from Europe. I can imagine many kiwi's might never have forgiven the UK for that.

Food for thought?

(I must re iterate that my opinion is biased towards the one sided information I have heard and read)
No doubt there maybe some NZ resentment on this but at the end of the day it's all to do with free trade. NZ has to adapt to this as others have.

[granger]

To be fair I think you'll find NZ has a better record on free trade than the EU does.

[incredible hulse]

To be fair I think you'll find NZ has a better record on free trade than the EU does.
Sorry read as free to trade. If all your eggs are in one basket it's not the customers fault if they move on