[themilkybarkid]

I am thinking of applying for jobs and wondered which island suited us best

Basically we prefer countryside and natural beauty, less consumerism, less westernisation influence, less MacDonaldisation - but not too isolated from a sense of community/town. (In the UK we love the Lake District, Scotland, Yorkshire Dales and Derbyshire). We live in a small seaside town not far from major cities - which we like a lot. Something similar would be good

I saw a bit of Auckland on TV last night and it put me off - it looked like a sprawling mass of concrete just like a US city -perhaps this isn't a fair description of Auckland or US cities! I am just wondering how much this dominates and dictates the culture and interests of North Island.

I appreciate there is a difference in climate too - with a warmer albeit more humid climate in North island.

But I am wondering whether I should steer clear of North Island. Ideally it would be good to locate in a place that we'll be well suited to -if I could get a job there. I am thinking somewhere near Christchurch may suit? My grown up lads would love snowboarding too -and I could have a go:uhoh

any advice?

[JandM]

I saw a bit of Auckland on TV last night and it put me off - it looked like a sprawling mass of concrete just like a US city -perhaps this isn't a fair description of Auckland or US cities! I am just wondering how much this dominates and dictates the culture and interests of North Island.

Oh, good heavens - this is absolutely not a fair description of Auckland. How many minutes of footage were there, to let you dismiss a whole island? And how can anyone generalize about the interests and mindset of a population and still be fair? - 'everyone who lives in Scotland wears a kilt, eats haggis and porage and plays the bagpipes'?

I suggest you go to this link http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl then call up 'Auckland NZ'. Then zoom out till you can see Torbay in the north and Manukau City in the south - this is all Auckland. Then make sure you're looking at the aerial photos. Notice the green and blue? Apart from in the very tight downtown district, this beautiful green and blue are everywhere, in gardens and parks and areas of native bush. The place is built on mountain-tops, and yet minutes from the sea. It's different from anywhere else. Zoom in close on the different centres - and in between.

You could also go to http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-me-property/index.htm and have a look at a few of the homes listed under 'Auckland'. Most properties have photos of the surroundings and views, as well as the interior.

You'll gather that what I'm saying is there is peace and nature and a lot of space even WITHIN the city boundaries. Beyond it there are huge tracts of open country. Time and again when travelling, I'd be mapreading and say, 'We take a right-turn in X' (some place-name). We'd come to a road-sign showing the turn, and there would be nothing there - the place-name applies to four or five houses, away from the road up their own driveways, although on the map it appears to be a town or village.

If you want to go for small and isolated, there's plenty of it.

[dusk]

he did say perhaps it wasn't a fair description, i didn't read it as being dismissive :)

[themilkybarkid]

JandM thanks for giving me a more balanced and I'm sure accurate insight into what Auckland is like - thanks for support Dusk! Sorry if my generalizations and ignorance caused any offence -TV often does give a distorted view of the facts.

I think when imaginging a move and seeing snippets it's easy to get the wrong idea.

But I am still wondering whether south island may be generally more rural, less busy, less westernised???

I'd want to avoid any rivalrly though it's just about difference that suits different people not whether one island is better than the other.

thanks for the help people!

[JandM]

Sorry if I came across as angry. I meant it more as 'urgent'. I wasn't offended - I was just thinking it was sad if you were wiping out the possibilities of half a country due to a small bit of misinformation.:)

I'm sure you're right about it being important to choose somewhere to live on the basis of how you and it will fit.

One more cautionary point. A couple of times you've said you're looking for somewhere 'less westernised'. Without being quite sure what you mean by this... NZ as we see it now has grown from transplanted British roots, overlying the Maori way of life that was suppressed as far as possible until quite recently. Agreed, that Britishness has gone along its own path in 150 years, and been flavoured by important additions from the Islands, China, India and other parts of Asia, and the upsurge of Maori rights. But NZ is still at bottom a western society, and a quite old-fashioned one especially in the most isolated, pioneer-type districts, despite global influence recently available via TV and internet. I realized that my 'normal' British anti-prejudice viewpoint was certainly not in tune with certain people we ran across in small places.

[themilkybarkid]

cheers perhaps westernised is too broad and vague

I'll try and explain what I am tired of in the UK (may help some of ppl in NZ to think twice about returning!! LOL:laugh )

What I observe and dislike in the UK is the way in which our lives have become homogenized, regulated, dismissed - we've been reduced to consumers and contributors to the capitalist run market place. And the government agencies restructured to reflect this. They are all highly monitored by targets. Education is being swamped and overloaded to prepare children for employment (Kids should be enjoying childhood). Even at university learning is gradually being replaced by training degree linked with employers. Privatisation is dismantling our services and lots of things don't work too good anymore such as drains, trains, roads, hospitals, public transport etc. Shops are closing down as Tesco and other supermarkets/shopping mals take over.

The decades of 'no such thing as community - only individuals' in which selfishness and profit at any cost became a virtue has taken it's toll. There are few decent stable reasonable paid reasonable working condition jobs for the unskilled/semi-skilled. Working life for many has become something they do according to the rules, procedures, policy - in which they have no heart, care of fun anymore. It is increasingly more common in my experience to find people who are pragmatic and lack basic values. Where the ends justify the means. This leads to bureaucratic/technocratic/inflexible approaches to everyday life that spoil things.

An extract reflecting on daily life experience which I put on Facebook may help to illustrate (or bore everyone!!). Bear in mind I live in a small seaside town!

Monday 11th June on my way to Liverpool by train for a meeting in Liverpool. Wanted to catch the 12.51pm train find a queue at the ticket office. I wait a few minutes no progress. At 12.50 I ask the guy can I pay on the train - 'possibly' he warns me. I dash round the corner the train doors are closed but I'm in luck as I spot the guard at the rear of the train standing there looking at me with his door open. I approach him - but he wont let me on the train. Regulations he explains. But I'm here and could just step on. But the man was not for turning. A minute later the train leaves without me.

While waiting on the platform I appreciate the sunshine, and the quaintness of the old village station terminus - my thoughts are interrupted by a loud speaker safety warning. All is not so safe or quaint after all. I am warned that we must no longer leave bags unattended they will be disposed of as they pose a security risk -really??

The train arrives I sit down open my laptop to do some marking (I seem to have a permanent flow of essays to mark). I notice a very elderly lady opposite and wonder what life she has seen. My thoughts are once again interrupted. This time a warning that all passengers must purchase tickets in advance or risk having to buy the a more expensive 'single only' ticket or may even face a financial penalty. Hmmm I leave to buy that ticket and return again.

I settle down to log on to my PC and I put my feet up on the hard plastic surrounding the seat opposite so my laptop sits more comfortably on my knee. Then Big Brother/Sister intrudes my space again. The loudspeaker on the train warns all passengers that it is prohibited to put your feet on the seats opposite and anyone found doing so will dealt with by way of a financial penalty.

The train soon to pull off and begin it's journey but before it does another announcement warning passengers that Smoking is not permitted anywhere on this train. Later the stern faced Ticket Police jump on the train. Thank goodness I did buy a ticket in advance! I later heard that my brother jumped and (unlike me) caught the train fully intending to pay on the train but when the Ticket Police arrived they refused to believe him and despite his protests he was fined (they may also display his photograph in the local paper as part of naming and shaming process). I must look out for him!

Not an enjoyable experience of public life in the UK - and such a contrast to my recent unregulated experience of wandering freely around Kefalonia, Greece. It is not a pleasant daily experience to be constantly informed of risks, fear,boundaries, prohibited behaviours - but this is fast becoming a dominant UK culture and I think a dangerous road to drift down. Even in my village we now have a number of huge CCTV camera with loudspeakers attached so the local police can see and observe.

We are becoming a nation obsessed with creating warnings, prohibitions, threats, controls and penalties - supposedly so we can all enjoy freedom.

Anyway (as far as I see it - I appreciate other will experience UK life differently) this sort of Bush Blair capitalism which is intruding into so much daily life is what I want to run thousands of miles away from -if this makes any sense to anyone :laugh :laugh

[JandM]

Ah, we're of exactly the same mind here. Just the sort of stuff we also detest. I'd say you're in time to help resist it in NZ (even including Auckland!).:nice1 But the other kind of hidebound ideas I mentioned will take your breath away at times.

[CJ22]

In the film "The Devil Dared Me To", North Island is described as 'the good one' and South Island as 'the one that sucks' :)

MBK, I agree entirely. We appear to be sleepwalking into a prohibition society. "Do this, don't do that, where's your papers?". The hell with it, I'm off, before they try to barcode me.

[themilkybarkid]

What you haven't been barcoded ??? :uhoh

Before you go you need to be chipped so they can track your whereabouts.

They also want your DNA before you go so THEY can win the war on crime -they're thinking they should have everyone's DNA.

Oh and we all need ID cards all helps to win the War on Terror (NOT)

Are people sure they want to return to Britain:confused:

So the messages are we can't trust anyone and we need to be always vigilant always watching, we are encouraged to live in fear. Yes time to leave UK as soon as we can:exit NZ beckons :clap

[incredible hulse]

Plenty of bureaucratic/technocratic/inflexible approaches to things here. In fact the workplace here takes it to the nth degree imo (can-do attitude you're having a laugh). Also plenty of MacDonaldisation (and american style 'Malls') but generally other things are more laid back. Certainly the trains will be more flexible - good job really as if you miss one here that's travelling any distance you won't have much hope of waiting for the next. Kids education is certainly more carefree here in early years.

I loved the South Island in the way that I loved going on holiday to rural Wales; doubt I could live there (Christchurch and Southern Lakes excepted) but nice place to visit. The SI I believe also has the warmer summer climate than NI

[randomone]

re. the original question (and I'm with you on the views of life in Britain!). I grew up at the top of the north island of NZ and went to university in Auckland. While Auckland does have lots of greenery, it isn't for me ... to me, it is a sprawling mass of houses and not much else (sorry to all those that love Auckland, but it is just my opinion).

You will find that both north and south islands are rural. My goodness, with less than 4m people in the country it won't be difficult to find a bit of ruralness!

The islands are different though. I guess the north island in general is more rolling hills and beaches while the south island has more dramatic landscape and beaches. You will find a community spirit whether you are in a village, a town of 3,000 or a town/city of 50,000+. How far from town/city would you be comfortable being?

In general, there is less cultural mix in the south island, way more in the north island and that is where you will find the majority of maori live and hence, where you will get more of a maori influence on everyday life.

As for the interests on both islands - pretty much the same and your attitude to life would be nicely supported on either island. The interests are more simple and uncomplicated. The closer you are to a city the more influence materialism will have on people's lives but it still doesn't compare to the UK.

What is it you think you want, and then maybe we can answer a little more helpfully?

[themilkybarkid]

i think ideally we'd like:

in a place which has prett
y countryside with easy access to lots of pretty walks
within a 20min max walk from a village/town with a sense of centre/community
less than a one hour drive from a place that may be termed a city
to be only a 20min walk from sea
in a place where people are tolerant and human centred not possession centred

may have trouble getting these but that's my ideal :raebanana

[Moorf]

*Flack jacket on*

A completely personal opinion based on my experience only... I'd go for the South Island every time. Love the emptiness, the huge huge range of environments, the climate (my hair doesn't DO humidity!), lack of cities/people.

We also found Auckland sprawling and, compared with what we've been used to for the last 3.5 yrs, busy and run down. We didn't like Wellington either :o

BUT... remember.. these are just MY views. There are plenty of rural areas in the North Island, as someone said, how can there not be with just 3 million people on the North Island, but with just 1 million on the South Island it feels like a different place.. well, it is! :laugh

[themilkybarkid]

Thanks but I appreciate it really does depend what people are looking for.

Thankfully we all like different things otherwise chances are we'd all be in one place!

But yes for me it seems South would suit me best .... but you've all arrived I have a lot to sort out before the dream can become a reality. Hopefully one day in next few years I'll be able to meet up for coffee (see I am learning the Kiwi culture!)

But if I can have a choice of job and home I think it'll be SI :cheers

North and South sound brilliant compared to the UK -sometimes when I read sentimental sadness of missing UK I think you don't know how lucky you are in NZ!

[Pip]

Goodness.. this is one of those very subjective questions! Its a little bit like asking some people in the UK about living in the north or south of the UK and I know a few who have very strong opinions on that one...!

I think all I can say is that NZ has a population of 4 million. I believe approximately 3 million live in NI and 1 million live in SI. That said, compared to the UK population/geographical size, either Island will be considerably less crowded than the UK and from looking at your list of want's, I think you could find them in either Island.

I think NZ in general has a far more 'common' sense attitude. For example, we had had a woodburner installed a few months ago and as part of that, you have to get it inspected by the council to ensure it's been done correctly. the inspector came and said, "technically - I should fail you, as your smoke alarm at the far end of the hall needs to be about 50cm closer, but then you'd have to pay $100 for a reinspection. Just make sure it gets moved, but I'll pass you anyway. " I'm pretty confident that wouldn't have happened in the UK. Equally dealing with the IRD here has been a piece of cake (real people with common sense) compared to dealing with the Inland Revenue back in the UK.

All, I can suggest is do you research, research and research!, there are loads of threads on this forum if you search on the advantages of each area. Work out whats on your personal wish list (because at the end of the day its about you and noone else), think about house prices in each area versus availability of potential jobs, and how quickly you need to find work or whether you can support yourself for a couple of months if you choose somewhere where jobs come up less frequently and hopefully that will help you work out the best potential area for you.

At the end of the day - you can always relocate if it doesn't work!

We came to CHC, knowing we had been advised that we would have a much better chance of finding the type of roles we were qualified for (IT - datawarehousing and business analysis) in Auckland/Wellington, but we'd fallen in love with SI on a previous visit, and I felt to not even try in CHC would be a compromise that I wasn't prepared to accept without trying. We made sure we had enough money to support us for several months and if we couldn't find work during that time, we would then relocate to Wellington/Auckland. As it was OH got offered his perfect role a couple of months before we were due to fly and things eventually fell into place for me, although it took a few months, so for us the gamble paid off and we love it. That said, everyone circumstances are different, and if we didn't have the cash to support ourselves and needed jobs quickly, we would probably have made a different decision..

either way - having read your post about your issues with the UK, whilst NZ is by no means perfect, I think you will find it an improvement in relation to those things. My worry is how long can it last....

Good luck!

p.s - one last thing, I used to be staggered by some of the roads over here and how easy it would be go over the edge of a clifftop road and there are no crash barriers (think Mt Hutt access road or Port Hills to those that know it!) - then again, the common sense attitude is.. don't drive over the edge then. (which means you drive v.cautiously and carefully) its amazingly effective....

[Pip]

Damn Helen.. you posted the populations stats whilst I was waffling! :D

[Moorf]

Great post Pip!! :nice1

[themilkybarkid]

yes very helpful thanks for all your time and effort Pip :clap :clap

i'm embarking big time on research, research, research, research ....:raebanana

[randomone]

totally agree with Pip. And you can achieve your wants on both islands .... and it isn't that difficult to achieve them - I don't think you will have any trouble at all. Good luck with your research and your plans

[Nick88]

At the risk of sounding like a materialist (a badge I wear with pride, btw) I would look to where the work is, and where you will best be able to support your family. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

[randomone]

At the risk of sounding like a materialist (a badge I wear with pride, btw) .

someone's got to!

[homertonian]

I also agree that it is time to leave and try another way. Our teenage boys are coming with us so we are off to Auckland in Sept.

For those who want to return here due to the high cost of living in NZ have no idea od the hugely rising costs here in the past year. It is not the same as it was a year or two ago.....

[Sam B]

I think you will find the sort of place you are looking for on either island. The winter temperatures in the South Island put me off a bit, especially as houses are cold here. I don't find the NI humid either (well not here in Cambridge anyway). The most scenic countryside is in the SI no doubt about it.

One thing - I have found that in general attitudes here are old fashioned at times and sometimes bigoted - so I would say that I have encountered more sexism and rascism (in the small minded, ignorant sense, not in the organised scary sense) here. Now, I can't say for sure, but the NI is more multi-cultural and I generally find these attitudes are more prevalent in the rural areas. So may be worse in the SI? I don't know, cos I've only been on holiday there.

[ourquest]

I agree with the general sentiment of Sam B but I am not sure I agree that South Island is necessarily more scenically beautiful. I get why it seems to be general knowledge but I am not actually sure they can or should be compared at all. There are spectacular parts to both and although SI might be a little on the grander scale on average it is not necessarily size that counts. And besides that, even if size mattered there is nothing geographically similar to Mount Taranaki in SI as a prime example.

No-one lives in the whole of either island all at once, so it is probably more accurate to compare and contrast individual areas or townships rather than the two main islands. There is arguably more similarity between Cambridge and Christchurch than there is between Cambridge and Wellington, and the latter two are both on NI and all three are in any case completely and utterly different.

[Tia Maria]

Ourquest wrote:

No-one lives in the whole of either island all at once, so it is probably more accurate to compare and contrast individual areas or townships rather than the two main islands. There is arguably more similarity between Cambridge and Christchurch than there is between Cambridge and Wellington, and the latter two are both on NI and all three are in any case completely and utterly different.

I agree with Ourquest, I think you can find what you are looking for on either island, so you will probably find it more productive to get it down to a shortlist of areas on both islands and then, as another poster suggested, check which offer you the best job and school (if you have children!) opportunities.

My experience has been very limited to the city areas of NZ, but I have to say I am far from impressed by the man made environment here. Being a relatively new country it doesn't have much historical character compared to Europe, and there seems to be an awful lot of 'out of town warehouse' style shops. Buildings seem to have been built from a very practical stance with very little thought to their visual impact.

I don't know whether the same thing occurs in the countryside with very practical commercial buildings, I'm sure one of the rural forum members will know how the man made environment impacts on the NZ countryside.

I think we fail to appreciate how lucky we are in certain parts of the UK which have quaint little villages, with their churches, cottages, local pubs and market squares which have evolved over time. Conversely there are other areas of the world which have embraced modern architecture and created some great meeting points for the community.

Cheers

Tia

[Philip10]

Great post Tia,

Lynn Sloman in her book “Car Sick” gives a good explanation of urban sprawl.

Urban sprawl is mainly caused by the rise in car usage. In towns that developed before car usage most communities/areas had all the needs serviced within about a 30 min walk or horse ride. This led to housing being denser e.g. the Victorian terraces, however work, shops and local amenities were always close by, therefore areas always had a sense of community. Most of Europe has this type of build, with large urban areas having small towns within larger towns. Contrast that with areas those have been developed post widespread car usage, particularly in the USA and Australia. (and to a certain extend NZ I guess). The 30 min travelling rule still applies except now its 30 mins by car. Therefore local amenities and places of work can now be at a far greater distance apart, this leads to out of town warehouse type stores, and other amenities which would been located within a town now build out of town accessible mainly by car: hence urban sprawl. In large Cities like London where a 30 min car journey is almost the same as a 30 min walk areas have started to return to pre car use development.

Although I don’t agree completely with her argument it certainly made me think. I love Cities, hate urban sprawl, however you can't have one without the other. I plan to live in an inner city area when I move to NZ.

Philip

[Genie]

Thank you for asking this question MBK, I suspect there are lots of people asking themselves this very question at this end of the process.

For myself I have today been offered the opportunity of two jobs, one in Dunedin and one in Wellington. I know which job I want and I'm going to go with that, which is in Dunedin. I'm a Yorkshire lass, so hopefully the cold winter will not be too bad for me.:roll

I'm basing my choice on the job preference and I feel it's equally important that I feel happy in my environment at the most difficult time I forsee in the emigration process. I wonder what the effect may be if I were to be in any job, in any place. Not sure I would be able to settle and feel secure as quickly or as easily as if I felt at the end of every working day I was 'coming home'.

I too adore the Lake District and the Moors, for the soulful qualities they offer. I didn't find that on the NI when in NZ, however the moment I turned that corner on route 1 after alighting the ferry from Wellington I knew where I needed to be.

Good luck with your decision, this is a purely personal opinion and am totally owning that. And as NZ appears to be a more mobile workforce I suppose there is always the option to move if you realise it just isn't right for you.:yes

[themilkybarkid]

thanks Hope it goes well for you in Dunedin Genie
but nothing has to be fixed forever - so you can alway change locations if needs be :0)
MBK

[peebles16]

Excellent news on the job offer Genie - well done :clap :clap

Karenx

[Genie]

Thanks Karen, just waiting for the paperwork now. Limbo land is becoming a very familiar place.:roll

[thewoodies]

I would like to add anyone returning to uk with kids would be mad!!! bank holiday weekend was full of news of teenagers stabbing each other even grown ups had a wild west fight with knives /stabb wounds etc
I got lots of text messages from friends saying your doing the right thing GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN they either have kids or are teachers. Its happening all over the uk and not just in rough areas!

:no:no:no

[icemaiden]

I couldn't agree more with the last comment. We just watched the Midlands news tonight and there was a story where local kids had videod a police car being set on fire deliberately. Anarchy seems to be setting in.... As a teacher (which is why I unfortunately have to remain nameless on this forum) I see and hear all sorts. The government maintains that crime rates are falling in the UK but nothing except their word on this backs up this point. IMHO it seems that fewer people bother to report some crimes as they won't be followed up anyway.

NZ Jan 2010 - fingers crossed .

[kowhai]

I too adore the Lake District and the Moors, for the soulful qualities they offer. I didn't find that on the NI when in NZ,
:yes

Hi Genie,
Did you visit Te Urewera National Park ? One of the most soulful atmospheric parts of the NI.

[dharder]

bank holiday weekend was full of news of teenagers stabbing each other even grown ups had a wild west fight with knives /stabb wounds etc

You’ll replace that with road deaths, drunk teenagers driving and on drugs, and news about yet another child abused and killed by the parents, or whoever it was dumped on for the afternoon to look after.

It really depends on what want to you read, and what you want to see, regardless of where you are.

Apart from that, for us, as a rather non-traditional family, ‘countryside’ and ‘rural’ are out of the question (not that I mind). Obviously part of this is prejudice, but there’s experiences from others that I don’t care to repeat just to find them right.

I have found NZ to be a tad backwards in a number of attitudes, I think some of you call it ‘common sense’ (I disagree, for example, saying that ignoring rules to let you pass a safety inspection is common sense, I think it is careless and dangerous), some of you call it ‘old fashioned’ in a positive way. I just think of it a bit behind, especially regarding attitudes re sexism, racism, homophobia and generally anything to do with gender stereotyping. I find Auckland provincial, I can’t imagine what I’d think about rural communities if I had to live there. Those are personal impressions, of course, and to be fair, I haven’t tried anything rural in the UK because I’d have the similar worries as I have about rural NZ.

Sometimes I wonder whether what we are looking for is actually a place, or rather a point in time (in the past). I have found for me personally, I often have to make sure that what I am disappointed not to find in a particular place is actually something that you wouldn’t find anywhere, as it is just not that time anymore. I’m thinking of carefree childhoods, consumerism, McDonalds, to much technology, etc…

Good luck to everyone finding a space for them that comes as closest to their needs as possible :)

Daniela

[JandM]

Sometimes I wonder whether what we are looking for is actually a place, or rather a point in time (in the past). I think what we each have to look for to find contentment is a mindset.

[boatieman]

Daniela,

I could'nt agree more here in Tauranga. Its more than provincial. It's very backwards socially, and educationally. If you talk to anyone about something out of town, they just glaze over, it happens all of the time. If you talk about anything in another part of the world, then thats it... they freeze over. There seems to be a ral lack of general knowledge around here.But I've seem the same in Christchurch, Auckland, wellington, Duenedin, Queenstown, etc, etc. I know NorthIslanders that never want to go to the SI and vice versa. I even know a 20 year old that is not interested in leaving Ohope. And if you know Ohope then you'd not even go there.

I Agree that It's more something that you may ned at a particular point in time. Someting that evolves. But maybe with a long wait for the immigration process that moment may evolve into another need by the time you actually get here!!!! or once you get here NZ may have also moved on to something you don't need!!!

[Alan]

Come, make up your own mind when you get here and you will find that most of the negative spin these boards is exactly that and now I believe I know which posters speak some sense and some I'd rather ignore.

Contentious yes, but I got dragged down by all the little niggles about:

- Crap houses
- Crap cars
- Crap roads
- Crap shops
- Crap driving
- Crap humour

The people here speak about anything whether white, black, pink or green and you can say your bit too......try doing that in the UK where Xmas decorations get banned for offending social groups, councils spending thousands on fencing off trees in case kids fall off and sue the council for their own error, county councils cutting back services whilst spending hundreds of thousands on putting roadsides in foreign languages as well as english. Sorry but yes most call it perspective and common sense which sadly the UK seems to have lost all sight of in order to try and appease everyone.

Rant over!

[Moorf]

I must live in a sort of strange non-NZ then - the locals here are certainly not backwards and bigoted. I don't know of the areas others speak of so I can't comment on them, but can I just defend the community I live in and say that they've made us most welcome, are certainly not stupid or lack general knowledge - they possess skills and knowledge many newcomers to NZ don't and yes, being one of the farthest places from anywhere else on earth and not being incredibly wealthy they aren't as well travelled.. but come on... :roll maybe I struck lucky or maybe you didn't... but let's not start the "all Kiwis are.... " statements on this forum... human nature means there are bad apples everywhere...

[dharder]

I must live in a sort of strange non-NZ then - the locals here are certainly not backwards and bigoted

I don't know the area where you live, but I suspect as part of a heterosexual educated white middle class married couple your experiences would be rather different whereever it was from people who don’t fall into those categories. I’m not saying your’re not aware of that privilege, I don’t know you enough to know that, but I am pointing out that sometimes, people don’t see things that don’t concern them, me included. My experiences as a white person with racism will be very different from experiences of a black person.

I suppose ‘backwards’ is a matter of perspective. I listen to the language and terms used on the radio, in shops, in the playground, on TV, and I find the use of terms I consider offensive appears to be rather acceptable (terms describing race, sexual orientation, etc). I find attitudes towards anything related to gender stereotyping and expectations often lacking and find the assumption of white, straight, married, mum at home and dad at work tiring at best. Some of this is more pronounced in the area where I live, which is really rather old fashioned, and I know there are areas here that are different.

I cringe at terms that are not okay to use in other places anymore, I hear attitudes aired in public that I thought we had moved on from. I’m not saying that that is only a particularly NZ thing, and said that in my previous post, but the reception and forum these opinions get here, and the lack of criticism worries me.

Guilty of generalising, yes (and I am aware that this my pet hate :)), mainly in the interest of brevity. With more time or space, I’m sure I could qualify what I meant. Negative spin? No. For me, that implies taking something positive and making it sound unnecessarily negative. I have pointed out on numerous occasions that I might omit the positives, but I don’t think I make any of the negatives up.

Daniela

[Moorf]

Yes, I agree, Kiwis don't always adhere to the political correctness that has evolved in other countries, something that's always been apparent to us here - and they do still use "outdated" words and phrases. For instance, my (Kiwi) neighbour's brother in law is "queer" or a "homo" when they refer to him - that's what they call it (they are late-fifties in age). Are they wrong? I don't think they're being derogatory toward him, it's just what they call it. Does that make sense?

I suppose it's the intent you attach to that use - I remember being told "you can't be offended, you can only take offence". I personally don't see it being used venemously when in conversation and haven't personally seen fit to label any of my Kiwi friends and neighbours racist or sexist or homophobic even if they may have used a language I personally avoid....

[Sam B]

I know we're a bit off topic now, but what the hell ... I'm interested in the debate. On the one hand I generally find the attitude to risk taking fairly refreshing, I'm happy to see 3 year olds swinging off trees at kindy and brandishing hammers and nails etc. I wanted my children to have free-er lives with more risk and they do and I'm glad. However the flip side to this is sometimes a scary lack of health and safety in the workplace which throws me a bit.

With the language and attitudes, I generally feel a bit dismayed, and I think it goes beyond just calling a spade a spade. I'm not in a minority group, so I probably don't experience this nearly as much as people who are, but I encounter more prejudice here by far - e.g. radio presenters always feeling the need to state the race of a person before telling an anecdote "I was behind this Asian driver ....", or more blatant stuff - nearly always aimed at Asians, which is a term Kiwis use to cover a vast tract of countries including Japanese and Chinese.

I think there are some Kiwis who genuinely are not prejudiced and just use un-PC language because they think that's normal, but I do believe language is a powerful thing, and being aware of the language you use and the effect it has on people is part of accepting everybody as the individual they are. The fact that the media are not taking the lead on this is a bit scary.

I know lots of great people here, it's not as if it's a nation of bigots, far from it, but I do miss the PC ness of the UK, because it represented a collective movement to try to address power imbalances and intolerant attitudes. And I'm not talking about banning Christmas decorations or any of that sort of nonsense that I never actually came across in real life anyway.

[dharder]

I know lots of great people here, it's not as if it's a nation of bigots, far from it, but I do miss the PC ness of the UK, because it represented a collective movement to try to address power imbalances and intolerant attitudes. And I'm not talking about banning Christmas decorations or any of that sort of nonsense that I never actually came across in real life anyway.

Well said, Sam. That is pretty much how I see it, too.

And personally, I've never experienced banning Christmas decorations in the UK, either :)

Daniela

[kowhai]

Well I do know that my forebears left the UK in order to escape class structures and the control that went with it. To gain a sense of liberty and individuality . To not be tied down and controlled by what others thought of them. My forebears were considered rebellious by their kin. Intermarriage between Maori was definitely frowned on by English relations and used as yet another excuse to disinherit. The horror I experienced in England at having my wonderful Maori family members described as " coloured "by my English relations plus me being referred to constantly as " the colonial ". Please remember that New Zealanders are the offspring of non - comformists - and proud of it. I accepted the attitudes I experienced in Britain because I realised I was in another culture. Sorry if Im digressing. I appreciate that this forum is primarily for ex-pats to get things off their chests - but I couldn't resist. :roll

[Tia Maria]

Well I do know that my forebears left the UK in order to escape class structures and the control that went with it. To gain a sense of liberty and individuality .

I thought many of them headed for NZ in order to make money. Unless of course you are talking specifically about your family rather than in a general sense.

Cheers

Tia

[kowhai]

Hi. No our family made no money ( Im still trying to get over being disinherited, 80 years later ). OHs family did well though - canny those Scotsmen )

[dharder]

Well I do know that my forebears left the UK in order to escape class structures and the control that went with it. To gain a sense of liberty and individuality . To not be tied down and controlled by what others thought of them.

Of course I don't know your family, and in your individual case, that may very well be true. But in general, I never really get that 'rebellious, breakaway' kind of feeling. I always get the impression that people came here feeling very much part of the Empire and connected to Britain. They didn't really throw all things British overboard, or let go of all traditions and beliefs (don't we all have Monday off for a Queen's birthday?). A trip to a museum shows in a lot of instances that people in essence tried to re-create their home country, but with the chance to make a living. But maybe I've just been to the wrong museums... :)

But that aside, I'm sorry you had bad experiences in the UK. I don't think anyone is saying that everyone here is 'bad' and everyone there is 'good'. But you might find you hear derogatory remarks and words about 'coloured' people and 'Asians' on the radio and on the TV here to an extent that is not acceptable anymore in the UK. Maybe not about Maori, maybe just about Pacific Islanders. The insults there would be purely on a personal level, where here, I hear insults in a more public forum.

Daniela

[wiki]

When arrived in the UK a few people mentioned I swore quite a bit. They didn't seem offended, they just noticed it as unusual. I switched to the Irish version of my most common swear word and it didn't mention again... however, after 10 years in the UK I came back to NZ and I'm a little wide-eyed at the accepted level of swearing in the media (of which I'm in). A lot is published and broadcast that I wouldn't make public anymore.

Show's that it really is where you are and when you are.

Asian to me has always meant south-east Asia as that's where the majority of Asian immigrants to NZ were from. Going to the UK and hearing Asian meaning India and neighbours sounded very wrong to me... but regardless, of the definition, I found the UK much more racist than NZ.

I lived in northern mill towns now in the grip of BNP membership drives... and for everyone I know who would use Asian or Paki as a derogatory term, they still loved a good curry. Go figure.

[Billy]

OHs family did well though - canny those Scotsmen )

I know many Scots who would take offence at this stereotyping....

[thewoodies]

people in the uk cant say or do anything without worrying they are upsetting anyone - when i was at university we were not allowed to hang the england flag(George Cross) to support our football team !!!(england)

:mad:We were being racist!!! - how ridiculous!!! students from other countries were allowed to hang theirs - we were after all studying sports science - so genuine sports fans

I agree live and let live -but our government has gone too far!!!!!!:confused:
The original british person is being marginalised in the name of human rights!!!! They will ban Christmas if they can - it will be called a seasonal holiday. so unless you live here or have lived amongst what is going on dont fool yourself .

Surely the people with negative comments about New Zealanders shouldnt be living there - come home - your just bl**dy rude to your host nation.:exit

[CJ22]

I lost count of the number of different flavours of ******** in that last post.

[Potato]

Please remember that New Zealanders are the offspring of non - comformists - and proud of it.

Not all of them. And NZ is a surprisingly conservative nation for the offspring of "non-conformists"!

[CJ22]

Somebody said of New Zealand in the 50s: "Everything in New Zealand is forbidden, unless it is explicitly allowed, in which case it is compulsory". It has a reputation for being a monolithic and conservative country. I imagine those attitudes linger on in places, and are falling by the wayside in others. Given that it's generally the sort of place where the young or well-travelled leave and the conservative or established stay, then it's no wonder such attitudes are hard to shake off. I plan on doing my own share of winding up the tutters and the Daily-Mail-reader-types.

[Ojai]

Somebody said of New Zealand in the 50s: "Everything in New Zealand is forbidden, unless it is explicitly allowed, in which case it is compulsory". It has a reputation for being a monolithic and conservative country. I imagine those attitudes linger on in places, and are falling by the wayside in others. Given that it's generally the sort of place where the young or well-travelled leave and the conservative or established stay, then it's no wonder such attitudes are hard to shake off. I plan on doing my own share of winding up the tutters and the Daily-Mail-reader-types.

Wow, I have not had the experience of any of this here at all! I am not aware of New Zealand having a monolithic and conservative reputation anywhere. And the people I know and am befriending here are all quite refreshing and fun, not stodgy. I am not sure I would agree with it being the place the conservative and established stay is right either, the people who come back and live after their OEs tend to be very energetic and driven people. I had lunch with a coworker yesterday who was in South Korea for two years, and has come back to energize our industry with ideas he got there.

I think there are tutters and Daily mail readers everywhere. I loved reading angry letters to the editor in the states, I loved reading them in the Caribbean, I loved reading them in Canada, and I love reading them here. But I don't think your characterization of New Zealand is right. There is certainly a core of "there is a right way to go about things". but it seems to be more a function of a small population that is tightly knit than it is of being made to follow the rules at all times. This is one of the happiest go lucky places I have ever lived.

[Sam B]

I lost count of the number of different flavours of ******** in that last post.

Oh thank you CJ22, couldn't have said it better myself

[Ojai]

Oh thank you CJ22, couldn't have said it better myself

:cheers same here.

[CJ22]

Fair enough. I'm just going by what I've read (the Rough Guide was particularly scathing, but then I hear the UK version was hard on the UK too - maybe they feel under pressure to not be seeming to give the country an easy risde). I'm delighted to hear it ain't so. We'll be living in Auckland in any case, and I doubt that it's any less diverse and eclectic than any other modern city :)

Wow, I have not had the experience of any of this here at all! I am not aware of New Zealand having a monolithic and conservative reputation anywhere. And the people I know and am befriending here are all quite refreshing and fun, not stodgy. I am not sure I would agree with it being the place the conservative and established stay is right either, the people who come back and live after their OEs tend to be very energetic and driven people. I had lunch with a coworker yesterday who was in South Korea for two years, and has come back to energize our industry with ideas he got there.

I think there are tutters and Daily mail readers everywhere. I loved reading angry letters to the editor in the states, I loved reading them in the Caribbean, I loved reading them in Canada, and I love reading them here. But I don't think your characterization of New Zealand is right. There is certainly a core of "there is a right way to go about things". but it seems to be more a function of a small population that is tightly knit than it is of being made to follow the rules at all times. This is one of the happiest go lucky places I have ever lived.

[dharder]

We'll be living in Auckland in any case, and I doubt that it's any less diverse and eclectic than any other modern city :)

Well....

Okay, I won't. I don't want to put you off coming, because I could use some assisstance "winding up the tutters and the Daily-Mail-reader-types"

:)

Daniela

[dusk]

hehe, we're both a bit wound up ourselves at the moment, waiting for the medical assessor to look at my paperwork and decide our fate *drums fingers on desk*

[CJ22]

Nah, no worries, it won't put me off. I'm the one who wanted to move to Alabama just to tick off the YECs. We shall see what we shall see :)

[JandM]

Well....

Okay, I won't. I don't want to put you off coming, because I could use some assisstance "winding up the tutters and the Daily-Mail-reader-types"

:)

Daniela
We'll be in on that.:nice1

[CJ22]

I sense a new Social Group possibility... :cool:

[Jo Jo]

Oooh, can I join?

[Ojai]

Fair enough. I'm just going by what I've read (the Rough Guide was particularly scathing, but then I hear the UK version was hard on the UK too - maybe they feel under pressure to not be seeming to give the country an easy risde). I'm delighted to hear it ain't so. We'll be living in Auckland in any case, and I doubt that it's any less diverse and eclectic than any other modern city :)

I was in Auckland today, and I can promise you that it's very diverse and eclectic, with exciting traffic patterns!

[CJ22]

:laugh