[migratory birds]

Just got done reading "Learning Like a Girl" by Diana Meehan. Great book about the benefits of single sex schooling - esp as kids get older.

Girls and boys have equal interest in math and science before 10 yrs of age but after that girls (in co-ed schools) steadily drop off in their interest each year beyond that...

Neuroscience studies find that when men and women are solving the same math problem, they complete the task in the same amount of time but men use a very localized portion of the brain whereas women will use several areas of the brain and experience 20% greater increase in blood flow to the brain while solving the problem...

Girls in girls schools tend to have higher self-confidence and take more initiative and leadership roles in the classroom if there are no boys around to beat them to it....

Got me wondering about those of you with teens or teachers of older kids...what are your observations about single sex schools in NZ?

I know they exist and are relatively common but do you see that these single sex schools have an awareness of the research on how girls and boys learn differently and craft delivery of instructional method to meet those very divergent ways of learning?

What are your observations of access to science, technology, math offerings in girls schools?

[JandM]

I'm sure parents and teachers in NZ will come back to you on the situation there, but I'd like to reply from the point of view of someone who's taught boys on their own, girls on their own, and mixed classes.

Similar remarks about learning have been made for decades. However, it's important to remember that school isn't only about lessons - there's socialization as an important factor. People who mix freely with a mixed peer-group during childhood and adolescence are more able to cope with life as young adults: those who've been principally with their own gender take much longer to manage in the wider world, which is, of course, mixed. Both sexes who've been segregated can be overly shy, OR overly enthusiastic, with the other, and their inappropriate behaviour can cause embarrassment to themselves and others. (The both of us went to high-powered single-sex schools, and as the result of our experiences, made sure our children went to a mixed one.)

Also, the sexes have a calming influence on each other in the school environment. Obviously this is a generalization, not true for every single individual, but it is noticeable that boys without girls are rougher, and girls without boys are more gossipy and catty. And often people who haven't been in a single-sex school will say airily, 'It must be better if the other sex aren't around to distract them.' Well, absence absolutely does NOT stop them thinking about one another - in fact, I think if they're cut off from contact, it actually heats the situation up.

[dharder]

People who mix freely with a mixed peer-group during childhood and adolescence are more able to cope with life as young adults: those who've been principally with their own gender take much longer to manage in the wider world, which is, of course, mixed

Is this anecdotal or based on some research? I've been thinking about this very topic recently, and am wondering what else I can read to get ideas of what is better (obvioulsy looking at this with our children in mind, not 'better' as in 'better for all'). In our case, for example, I'm not worried about 'socialising', we have two boys and two girls, no way they couldn't socialise with each other :)

My instincts would be to think it is better for the subjects that are perceived to be gender specific (Sciences for the girls, languages for the boys) to be taught separately.

Interested to hear other people's thoughts on this as well.

Daniela

[JandM]

Is this anecdotal or based on some research? I've been thinking about this very topic recently, and am wondering what else I can read to get ideas of what is better (obvioulsy looking at this with our children in mind, not 'better' as in 'better for all'). In our case, for example, I'm not worried about 'socialising', we have two boys and two girls, no way they couldn't socialise with each other

It's a given in tertiary education. Tutors will be able to point out who came from which kind of school, simply on account of how they are. I believe there's some research - it'll be of the sociological/anthropological kind based on observation and answers to questionnaires, no doubt. I think I saw it when studying, but where those files would be after all this time, goodness knows. If I do come across any details, I'll let you know.

Incidentally, socializing with your brother/sister obviously does help, but is still a bit different from interacting with the bombshell at the next desk or in the lunch queue - not the same chemistry, somehow!

As I said above, we took the choice, having experienced single-sex education ourselves, to send our children to a mixed school. My feeling, as an educator as well as a mother, is that it's a mixed world to be lived in, so segregation for certain subjects only gives a false impression of what the learners will find when they need to put their knowledge into practice. And - a personal impression from 40 years teaching all kinds of people all kinds of things - I feel there are far more traits which can crop up irrespective of gender than differences which will infallibly be found according to gender. But those traits will only show themselves if both sexes are given the opportunity to experience the full range of stimuli, not kept to what is someone's idea of what is 'suitable' for their sex.

[Sam B]

I went to single sex schools from age 10, and it definitely affected how I related to the opposite sex. I was very immature when I started uni at age 17, and interacted very inappropriately with boys at times, I had no idea how to relate to them, thought they were a different species! I also put myself in some unnecessarily risky situations, I was boy-mad for a while. And my girls' school WAS exceptionally catty.

[dharder]

Most things I've read seem to indicate that girls do a lot better in sciences if they are in single sex schools, and that at University level, there are a lot more graduates of girls' schools in the Sciences (in percentages) than from mixed schools.

I also believe that the differences are fewer than the similarities, but for me, that would be all the more reason to separate them.

But of course I went to a mixed school, and hated it. I really hated the time from which on girls changed in order to 'please' the boys, to get their attention, etc. There are always assumptions about who can do what according to gender made by the teachers, even if they think they're not doing it, and I would have thought that those assumptions are pointless if you only have one sex in the school.

And I'm not just thinking of girls and science, but also boys and maybe drama, or anything that isn't traditionally masculine. Wouldn't there be less chance to be 'accused' of being like a girl if there aren't any to compare you to?

Just wondering. It is not really a common concept in Germany, where I had all my schooling, so I thought the idea fascinating, and have always been a little envious. I continue to try to research this, we'll see where that takes me.

Daniela

[Carey]

But of course I went to a mixed school, and hated it. I really hated the time from which on girls changed in order to 'please' the boys, to get their attention, etc.

So much depends on the individual. I went to a girls only school and also hated it and also hated the way some girls changed in order to please some of the other girls.
I vowed never to send my kids to a single sex school but now seeing how different (disruptive), some boys approach to learning is, I wonder, if we had the choice, whether we would re-consider. But this may only be for the age DD is now.

For me growing up with 2 sisters , no brother's, I didn't know what a boy was til I left school!

[JandM]

There are always assumptions about who can do what according to gender made by the teachers, even if they think they're not doing it, and I would have thought that those assumptions are pointless if you only have one sex in the school.

I've never been in any school, I'm sorry to say, where some teachers didn't show prejudice/make assumptions about certain sections of the pupils, on some spurious grounds or other. It's human nature - although teachers are supposed to control their likes and dislikes and not show them, not all of them can. And if they don't have the gender peg to hang things on, it'll be something else equally irrelevant.

And I'm not just thinking of girls and science, but also boys and maybe drama, or anything that isn't traditionally masculine.

It's possible to build a culture in a mixed school where it's accepted that boys do everything, girls do everything. I was head of Expressive Arts for a while, and had equal uptake for the sexes for Drama at GCSE. I even forced the MCP games master (eventually) to concede that dance training was good for football players, tougher than he ever realized.

Wouldn't there be less chance to be 'accused' of being like a girl if there aren't any to compare you to?

Actually, no. No quiet introspective boy (and those are usually the ones that get this taunt levelled at them), not even a homosexual one, is actually like a girl, and the differences are obvious when there are real girls around for comparison. Also, the girls tend to intervene if these accusations happen, and they have effective ways of sorting out the verbal bullies.

[migratory birds]

Perhaps it's just a tough time in teens lives and the gender mix in the school has nothing to do with it. Same gender, mixed gender - it's going to be a rollercoaster for many/most kids.

I was in Catholic school (co-ed) thru 7th grade and harassed (bordering on abuse) daily by the principal and some of the teachers. Asked my parents if I could go to public school. They conceded but, a year or two later, did ask if I'd be interested in going to the girls Catholic high school. There was no way they could have dragged me in there at that time. Catholicism still stung and left me with a bitter taste.

IMHO, our experiences, 20-50 yrs ago, in single gender Catholic/religious schools should be a separate discussion rather than using those experiences then to guide us in our judgements of contemporary single gender schools. Many Catholic institutions at that time were employing some very sick people - at least in the US (but I don't want to go too far on that one).

So co-ed high school it was for me.

I don't buy it that kids in co-ed high schools are better able to interact with age-mates of the other gender. I don't think kids of that age, in general, are guided well by parents or adult mentors in how to cultivate healthy intergender friendships/relationships (unless they're in a fabulous small private school that recognizes the importance of this mentoring) so 15-21 yr olds are left floundering on their own best judgement (which is often really lacking at that time in human brain development).

Daniela, a place to start on reading more:

"Women's Ways of Knowing" Belenky (haven't read yet)

"In A Different Voice" Carol Gilligan (tried reading it 20+ yrs ago but pretty heady as I recall...???)

"Reviving Ophelia" Mary Pipher (EXCELLENT book, a must-read for all parents of girls)

"Learning Like a Girl" Diana Meehan (an easy read based on a woman's experience getting a girls' school started in her Los Angeles community - you get the idea after awhile and can skim thru much of it from the middle on - but inspires extended thought on the subject - hence my post here)

http://www.educategirls.org

Gotta get back to work - maybe more later

[JandM]

MB, I'm sorry to hear about the painful experiences you had in your own schooling. They must leave a bad taste - no wonder.

IMHO, our experiences, 20-50 yrs ago, in single gender Catholic/religious schools should be a separate discussion rather than using those experiences then to guide us in our judgements of contemporary single gender schools. With respect, I don't think anyone here has mentioned religious schools as a basis for anything they've said. Certainly, none of my work with one sex alone has been in such a school.

I don't buy it that kids in co-ed high schools are better able to interact with age-mates of the other gender.If this is responding to what I said... this ISN'T what I said. My point is that children in a mixed peer group have the opportunity to continue to develop during school hours the necessary skills to interact with everyone, which they don't if the other gender is missing. Youngsters don't wait to receive adult guidance on how to interact with each other - they instinctively go for it, and learn by experience. Of course each individual's basic attitude will be affected by the relationships they've seen in their home circle and among respected adults around them, but socializing is a basic drive, and something which we each have to do for ourself, and DO, from birth onwards.

[migratory birds]

Maybe I'll get back to my original questions in the opening post. All questions are specific to girls' schools in NZ...

Anyone have any input on these queries?

...what are your observations about single sex schools in NZ?

I know they exist and are relatively common but do you see that these single sex schools have an awareness of the research on how girls and boys learn differently and craft delivery of instructional method to meet those very divergent ways of learning?

What are your observations of access to science, technology, math offerings in girls schools?