[Moorf]

Wow, about blooming time! Was on the One News here tonight... NZ'ers complaining as they can only get a 1 year working holiday visa now instead of two and they are introducing English language tests! :eek

You can tell there's an election on the way! :?

[Jo and Andy]

Yes, I have had 3 politcal leaflets through my door this week, but what a load of ****, don't believe a word of it.

[Diny]

It's just another bunch of pre-elecion tosh and spin.

Diny

[Moorf]

The continued with some British politician.. (don't ask me who!!) saying that they NEED more immigrants to come into UK to go into nursing.. is that because they're all leaving to come here???

:laugh

[Danpoll]

It seems that blair has given up on education education education and making sure that the immigrants can. Great policy Tony bet it will work untill may 2nd, an oz style points system. hows about a us style visa system. knowing labour the points would be awared as follows

ethnic minority 10pts
Disabled 10pts
Gay 10pts
gay socialist 20pts
skilled 3pts
Age 10pts
children 1-4 2pts
children 5-12 20pts
willing to work 3pts
unwilling to work 20pts

Dan

[Iain]

Great. A bunch of migrants whining about immigrants. Nice going guys. :no

[Timbo]

Iain. I think you miss the point. If you are in the process of getting yourself to NZ, then you will know just how B****** hard it is to make your case to NZIS.
Now put yourself in the position of someone who would like to live in the uk, but has A. no money. B no job ( or prospects) C no skills that are in short supply D loads of dependants in tow.

In the uk you can put NOTHING in but take LOTS out of the system.

[Danpoll]

also we have more right than most to critisise this countries woeful immigration process as we have or are facing one of the tough but fair systems. I know and you know that the immigrants will come in, my gripe is that tony will wishy washy spinniny spinny the immigration issue to fool the british public. now we all want to leave our country and seek better lifes and oppurtunities abroad, just like people comming here. We had to jump through loops prove our health,skills,language,finance and pay money for it, so why shouldn't others.

good luck to those one legged romanian roofers if this country is stupid enougth to give you its money then you take it.

Dan

[Bubbles]

Timbo
You beat me to it mate. Well said, and oh so true. :uhoh

My sentiments exactly

John

[Diny]

Timbo

As usual you have hit the nail right on the head !!!!!!!

Well said you.http://tcwozere.co.uk/smileys/ok.gif

Diny

[Gran]

I dont think Kiwi and Aussie kids who go over to England to work and experience the world and maybe pay off some of their student loan, always with the expressed intention of returning home are the problem. They have been clamped down on as they are an easy target.

[Caven]

Well said Timbo :nice1

Dan,

I'm confused by your points system...I am an ethnic minority lesbian with one leg, nine hypodermically inseminated children and I won a karaoke competition in some pub in Dover. How many points do I get for that???

Clearly, once accepted, I'll also need an arts grant, bluetooth enabled mobile phone and one of them free dentist thingies which tax-payers can't get hold of. Aside from my two council houses knocked into one, I want my own piece of council pathing on a busy high-street so I can beg on my way back from the post-office. Notice I said on the way back, I want a taxi to take me TO it.

I'd like to point out, also, that anything less than the above, or any reference to my mile-long criminal record will be seen by me as an infringement to my basic human rights, whereupon I will bog down your courts with a hopeless legal action which will cost your tax-payers thousands.

[Danpoll]

Caven your expectations of immigrant life in England are far more luxurious than that, we also supply you with food vouchers at tescos which is free food evrey week for you and your family. as you will need to travel to sign on and beg and maybe a bit of pimping or explotation of children from your country we will give you 5oo pound towards a car no tax and no need for a license. If you could abide by our laws we would appreciate it but our coppers wont touch you anyway.

as regards to your points will depend on how you will be voting in May. You will be entittled to 1000 pound for evrey child born here as well as 500 pound one off maternity grant,

Tax at 3% on your first 40K and 18% after that.

England, we hope you enjoy your stay.

[Iain]

Iain. I think you miss the point.

Nope, not really. I get the point you are making, I just don't agree with it.

I've worked with immigrants within the UK, both skilled workers and refugees. From my, direct, experience they are usually bloody keen to get working and to establish themselves and often face appalling racism and bias which makes their lives hell.

Some migrants abuse the system, but despite what the tabloids may tell you, the majority are either hard working or shite scared. Most of the latter catagory are prevented from working in the UK until their case is resolved, which is why they are on benefit - it's not through choice.

[Diny]

Did anybody listen to the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 yesterday morning? It was very interesting.

He asked a really good question, the chap he was interviewing - Lord somebody, who's got some big cheese position within this immigration fiasco (and speaks with a very strong Jamaican accent) simply spluttered and mumbled and couldn't answer. The question was:

Why do the govt feel we need to bring immigrants into the UK to fill the nursing jobs etc, when we have gawd knows how many million unemployed?

Now I'm going to sit very firmly on the fence on this one 'cos I really can see both sides of the story ..... but I reckon our Mr Vine was making a good point.

Diny

[jo b]

Can I add to this.

It could be that we have created a system where people can live comfortably on benefits never work a day in thier life and then we need immgrants to do the menial work they won't get out of bed for. Merthyr Tydfill is a case in point.

But what we don't do is assess their ability to do the work i.e. speak English, read English etc. so they end up on benefits themselves.

with a more sensible approach sush as a qualifying level of written and spoken English so many migrants wouldn't be claiming benefits.

What I see is houses full of all male immigrants abusing the system. Yes it does happen more than you think.

Jo

[Danpoll]

do you think kiwis would feel compassion for us when we are feeling the pinch adjusting to a new life? I don't think they would, In general I believe that most people don't give two hoots about their plights or hardships, don't stay then. I bet that any nation would feel the same.

question:

If the situation arised once in New Zealand, that after a few months in the country you had to face going on state bennefit, what would you do?

I personally would feel disgusted and degraded and that I was robbing NZ unfairly and stealing kiwis tax money. I would work two or more jobs do whatever to avoid it.

I would be interested to see the reponse to this one


dan

[Diny]

I'm with you on that one Dan - I'd have to try a hundred other things before I claimed the dole.

Many years ago PB and I were so broke - we really were on the bones of our a**e. We were living in a rented, unheated, damp & leaky old farm cottage at the end of a remote farm track up in the wilds of northern Scotland. We only just had enough money for rent .... that was it really. We would go out after dark and steal potatoes and swedes from the adjoining fields, we bought 1 loaf of bread a week and had 6 chickens in the back yard so there was plenty of eggs to eat. I can honestly tell you we had nothing.

Well actually we did ..... we had pride. We worked hard and saved hard. Within 6 months we were in a position to put down a deposit on a house in Aberdeen ...... the rest is history. They were hard times but we always knew that there were folks who were having it worse than us. The idea of claiming unemployment benefit - no damn it - I'm gonna call it the dole - NEVER entered our heads. We now have a 245k home to sell and a house full of nice furniture to ship over to NZ. I'm just trying to make the point that we're nothing special, we're not Mr & Mrs Outstanding, we're not financial whiz kids that played the markets and got lucky. We're just Mr & Mrs Joe Average. If we can do it then why the heck can't alot of the habitual dole bludgers?

Social security is a wonderful thing and should always be made available for GENUINE and NEEDY cases. But it's my belief that if you have the ability to support yourselves then you should. I would willingly give my last penny (or cent) to somebody in need. It makes me feel physically sick to cross the palms of idle hands with tax payers gold.

I hope I haven't gone too 'off topic' - but you did say you'd be interested to know.

Diny

[Lil]

I would suggest that most economic migrants come to the UK simply to gain the benefits offered to them from day one. i.e. Housing, NHS and Education all for free. There wouldn't be such a queue at the door were they to withold benefits from migrants to the UK for the first two years.

The latest rising problem seems to be people claiming to come to the UK as students and then within hours of arriving at the airport they turn up in the hospitals asking for treatment for aids etc Who pays for this?

I'm not racist or anti-migration but cannot see how this country can continue to sustain the sheer numbers entering each year. Already we are told that housing is in short supply and a proposed 1 million more homes to be built in the South East. What are we to do concrete over all of the countryside to keep building more houses?

Some method of controlling the numbers is required and what better than a points system.

[Bubbles]

I would suggest that most economic migrants come to the UK simply to gain the benefits offered to them from day one. i.e. Housing, NHS and Education all for free.

Exactly, that's why on there way over, the rest of europe is not even considered. Britain is an easy target, it has a system in place that is open to abuse, and abused it gets.

Not only by immigrants I might add.

[MB]

Diny - I'm sitting here applauding your and PB's basic attitude during your difficult time. So much so that I'm intrigued to ask someone with your principles about one aspect of your resolve. It's best put like this:

how did you guys mentally resist the (at least apparently) reasonable position that the unemployment benefit you went out of your way to avoid was palpably there for you because you and yours had already paid in tax money to have it there when needed?

If your answer is along the lines of what you have already said -- i.e., that, yes, the safety net is there but you didn't consider your own dire straits to be quite dire enough to use it -- then I understand already. The same is true if it's somehow just to do with your own, basic pride about the idea of the dole: I get that. Fair play to you.

If that's not it, though, I'd love to hear your views... 'cos knowing you guys' assertiveness and brains I'd think it just as understandable if your take on benefits had been the one I just summarized: i.e., "We helped pay for it, so if we get to living without heat, etc., we'll claim it."
Both positions seem to make sense in their way.

Cheers,
Matt.

[MB]

One more thing, Diny: I hope you know the way I post well enough to know that I don't have a sneaky point here. I'm genuinely interested, partly because it's interesting to hear from folks who have put their money where their mouth is via struggling for a while.

Cheers,
Matt.

[Annierobrigado]

hi all

hopefully you aren't complaining about the immigrants from my country who are there for the nursing jobs and other health care roles like caregivers, medical radiation techies, doctors... our nurses here are leaving in droves to go to the UK and even Ireland to brave your winters and quietly suffer the discrimination from some of your countrymen... because even if they earn only a 100 pounds a week that's still 10000 php a week, compared to 6,000 - 8000 php a month! Give them a break, because your government advertised for these jobs here in our country, and they have given all sorts of perks and bonuses just to get them (our nurses can even bring along their families, LEGALLY)

Tell Mr Vine maybe because our nurses have TLC for any patient, even those as grumpy as, well, Grumpy.

i really have no idea how "government aid" works because we never have any here! :laugh :laugh

Is Mr Blair up for re election? I thought he was already on his 2nd term, which is the most any one can have. But i guess many of the Brits like him, and they aren't found in this forum. LOL :mrgreen: :laugh

:cheers
annie

[Diny]

Hi Matt

Nothing 'sneaky' about your way of asking questions at all. I guess there's not really a short answer but I'll try.

We had some savings - not much, but enough to pay for a couple of months rent etc. Certainly no disposable cash for anything other than the absolute basics. We used that money but it rapidly got depleted. Also, we knew that - should we have tried to apply for the dole - we would most probably have been refused due to the fact that we had this minimal amount in our bank. Also, we knew of people who had paid into the system all their working lives and had been told they would have to wait several weeks for any financial assistance, so we never entertained the idea of applying. We didn't like the situation we were in so we worked our way out of it - it's as simple as that really.
It just seems in this country that the more you pay into the system the less you get out of it - and vice versa.

Annie ........ I agree with what you say regarding your nurses. We have a local small hospital which employs several Phil' medical staff. They have a wonderful reputation. Mr Vine was using the nursing profession as an example. The point he was making was why does the UK government advertise in other countries for workers when there's so many unemployed over here.

As for Blair coming to the end of his 2nd term. He can stand as many times as he likes, as long as he's getting the votes he's staying in power. Maybe one day when actually gets officially called President Blair this will change.

Diny

[MB]

Diny - ah, I see. Makes sense. Thanks - very practical considerations.

And I added that "sneaky" post (and, my, I do seem to be apologizing for the tone a lot of my posts these days, don't I? :laugh ) because I was trying so hard to make my question precise that I thought I might come over as trying to be kinda dry and snotty, especially with no emoticons used!

Cheers, :nice1
Matt.

[Diny]

No worries at all Matt - the old problem of the written word being read in the totally opposte way as it is meant to be is an 'occupational hazard' of forums I guess.

Diny

[jo b]

hi all

hopefully you aren't complaining about the immigrants from my country who are there for the nursing jobs and other health care roles like caregivers, medical radiation techies, doctors... our nurses here are leaving in droves to go to the UK and even Ireland to brave your winters and quietly suffer the discrimination from some of your countrymen... because even if they earn only a 100 pounds a week that's still 10000 php a week, compared to 6,000 - 8000 php a month! Give them a break, because your government advertised for these jobs here in our country, and they have given all sorts of perks and bonuses just to get them (our nurses can even bring along their families, LEGALLY)

Tell Mr Vine maybe because our nurses have TLC for any patient, even those as grumpy as, well, Grumpy.

i really have no idea how "government aid" works because we never have any here! :laugh :laugh

Is Mr Blair up for re election? I thought he was already on his 2nd term, which is the most any one can have. But i guess many of the Brits like him, and they aren't found in this forum. LOL :mrgreen: :laugh

:cheers
annie

Annie,

Anyone who contributes postively to the UK is in my eyes equal in every sense. I am V. sorry to hear your country folk have suffered discrimination when they are filling gaps in our country.

But you must see the amount of 'illegal immgrants' who stay, have no job, claim dole money, housing benefit, free schools for children, free healthcare, even our local council gives £2,000 towards a car :no for these people. There are many poor souls who are being smuggled by trafficking gangs, with promises of job etc. :no

There are lots of underground gangs especially in London from Romania, Slovakia etc, they bring their own people here and pimp them or slave trade them. Yes it happens 22? Chinese cockle pickers died in Morecambe bay, they were illegal immigrants trying to earn a few bob to send home, sadly their children not only don't have money but no parents. That was slave labour they earned £1 a day, after their rent etc was taken out of the pay packet.

Deep down I blame our government for turning such a blind eye. This problems should have been sorted out years ago.

I could list loads of examples where this happens but alas it's tea time here and I need to cook the better halfs tea.

Jo

x

[foolsgold99]

Diny,

We would go out after dark and steal potatoes and swedes from the adjoining fields,

I'm astonished that anyone would comit a crime, and steal rather than claim the benefits that they were entitled to. Benefits are a form of insurance, you pay your premiums each week. Shakey moral ground imho.

If your house burned down, would you be too proud to claim the insurance.

[Diny]

Yeah - very shakey moral grounds I agree. Maybe PB and I are just bad people. Knicking a couple of potatoes after dark every now and then from a 50 acre field .... well in days of old we'd have received a public flogging and then been deported for that filthy crime.

You have us red handed there !!!

Claiming benefits when we had money in the bank (allbeit a tiny amount) is also abit immoral in our humble opinions.

Guess it's a case of damned whatever we do, but I think we'll manage to live with our criminal theft record.

By the way - have you ever been blackberry picking?

Diny

[captainxmas]

DOOR - STABLE - BOLTED - HORSE - AFTER - CLOSE....Please rearrange as you see fit.

A very entertaining thread to read, it's amazing how this bit of pre-election baloney has whipped up such a negative response from people in the world that have never encountered such systems.

If only we had the 'Treaty of Wolverhampton' to fall back on and support us in these dark times of colonisation... :eek

:exit

[Danpoll]

Tonys at it again tonight, this time using the guildford 4,6,8 whatever as a tool to say, look evreyone I can say sorry. :clap :clap hes got my vote

oh tony your such a good christian.

with regards to my own question I would claim in this country no problems, its a sinking ship so pillage what you can. as I stated earlier feel dishonarable emigrating and then taking bennefit. Thats what the question was aimed at.

Dan

[Annierobrigado]

Annie,

Anyone who contributes postively to the UK is in my eyes equal in every sense. I am V. sorry to hear your country folk have suffered discrimination when they are filling gaps in our country.

But you must see the amount of 'illegal immgrants' who stay, have no job, claim dole money, housing benefit, free schools for children, free healthcare, even our local council gives £2,000 towards a car :no for these people. There are many poor souls who are being smuggled by trafficking gangs, with promises of job etc. :no

There are lots of underground gangs especially in London from Romania, Slovakia etc, they bring their own people here and pimp them or slave trade them. Yes it happens 22? Chinese cockle pickers died in Morecambe bay, they were illegal immigrants trying to earn a few bob to send home, sadly their children not only don't have money but no parents. That was slave labour they earned £1 a day, after their rent etc was taken out of the pay packet.

Deep down I blame our government for turning such a blind eye. This problems should have been sorted out years ago.

I could list loads of examples where this happens but alas it's tea time here and I need to cook the better halfs tea.

Jo

x

thanks jo

actually yes, i've heard of illegal immigrants not only to uk but to all parts of the globe, and i'm not saying the filipinos are squeaky clean. hah! many of my countrymen are also jackasses, luring hapless filipinos into believing they will have good paying jobs abroad so these poor guys sell their lands and homes, get into all kinds of debts and maybe even get as far as the airport (heathrow or jfk or changmai) only to be hauled into the airport security office, given the spanish inquisition and then be told that you have no legal right to enter so and so nation, and you will be deported immediately! so they come back dazed and dejected to the philippines, and the illegal recruiter is nowhere to be found! but being deported probably is better than staying in the foreign country as a TNT (in filipino it means "tago nang tago" or "hide and hide again") where you can't get a job, or worse, become virtual prisoners and slaves of the mafia of whatever.!!! :wah

can't this problem be addressed in the united nations? i mean, virtually all nations are affected anyway, and it is becoming a problem, what with globalization and the world becoming smaller, etc.

oh well, i guess i'll also take a tea break. Do you have green tea? they say it works well for losing weight because it helps increase your metabolism.

regards
annie

[Diny]

I think what causes do much distopia with alot of people is that so many illegal immigrants intentionally 'make their way' to the UK.

What I mean is - of course nobody can blame these poor people from fleeing dangeroud situations, poverty, humiliation, personal threat etc (let's face it - who wouldn't). But where the whole 'fleeing to save my life' routine falls down is ..... why do they pass several 'safe countries' to make it to the UK.

Surely if they're fleeing persecution and danger, they'd make it to the first 'haven' and then seek help.

Their plea can sometimes lose credability when they 'cross over' many 'havens' to make it to the UK.

Just a thought I guess. Believe me, I really don't know where to 'stand' on this one. I detest benefit bludgers but my heart goes out to GENUINE cases. I'm just happy that I'm not the one deciding their fate.

Diny

[Moorf]

Yep Diny, that's what I have never understood too.. :no

Plus, whilst I know that we need the valuable talents of nurses from other countries (cos all ours are leaving due to crap pay?) I really wish they would be more stringent on their Engish language capability - I was in hospital a couple of times last year and each time I had nurses and doctors whom I could barely understand and at one point I had a bunch of them conversing in their native language around my bed... :no