[nippa&pippa]

Did you know that NZ's drinking water doesn't have fluoride that protect your teeth like UK's water?

To protect yourself from huge dentist's bill by make your DIY fluoride water.
http://www.smileforlife.co.nz/page.php?sectionid=15&pageid=0&PHPSESSID=7ad61cd394c0475e9dc931245c1d0fd9

[Moorf]

Yep, they advise not to rinse and spit too don't they?

[nippa&pippa]

Yep, they advise not to rinse and spit too don't they?

Yep, I already knew this for long times and had to change my OH's habit with teeth cleaning. My kids just love to "eat" the toothpaste:D

[lockstock]

So you have to swallow not spit then

[marcia]

I hadn't realised that none of NZ water had fluoride in it, I thought if you were on town water it was included?! We all take fluoride tablets daily becasue we are on tank water.

[emotony]

Hi

Quite a few areas fluoridate the water, mainly on the North Island it has to be said. Check whether your area is fluoridated --> http://www.fannz.org.nz/fluoridationstatusofcouncils.php

[IanW99]

So you have to swallow not spit then

No you shouldn't swallow toothpaste it can cause "dental fluorosis" if you ingest too much flouride.

The advice is to not rinse after brushing as it washes away too much of the flouride that you want to keep on your teeth.

Ian

[renew]

Ian is correct. Also worth noting that children shoudl have there own toothpaste which has a lower level of flouride in it. Also worth checking the mouthwash as many are not meant to be used directly after brushing

cheers

ian

[nippa&pippa]

Ian is correct. Also worth noting that children shoudl have there own toothpaste which has a lower level of flouride in it. Also worth checking the mouthwash as many are not meant to be used directly after brushing

cheers

ian

I have been told that children should use adult's toothpaste in NZ because of lack of fluoride in water as long as you use bit of toothpaste smear onto their brush.

[kanatakiwi]

Did you know that NZ's drinking water doesn't have fluoride that protect your teeth like UK's water?



Auckland's water is definitely flouridated.

[renew]

Hiya,
The danger with flouridated toothpaste is that, as one poster earlier pointed out, children like to eat toothpaste. Although a small amount of flouride is good large quantities can cause more harm than good.


cheers


Ian

[kanatakiwi]

Do dentists here do flouride treatments? We regularly get those in Canada when we go for teeth cleaning. however that was all covered under a dental plan which we dont have in NZ, and have been avoiding the dentist in fear of how large the bill will be. but its better than relying on toothpaste.
Personally I dont think flouridated water is the way to go either, you want to protect your teeth, but drinking flouridated water means your kidneys and everything else get flouridated too. overkill........

[Hackswell]

Do dentists here do flouride treatments? We regularly get those in Canada when we go for teeth cleaning. however that was all covered under a dental plan which we dont have in NZ, and have been avoiding the dentist in fear of how large the bill will be. but its better than relying on toothpaste.
Personally I dont think flouridated water is the way to go either, you want to protect your teeth, but drinking flouridated water means your kidneys and everything else get flouridated too. overkill........

I agree. Fluoride can be very dangerous. It's better to eat foods with natural fluorides, and let the dentist put the fluoride treatment on than potentially poison your body.

Just my $0.03.

[enki]

You may find these links intresting.

The Fluoride Deception 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDEuPWWO8Nw
The Fluoride Deception 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlwMeC2Fzik
The Fluoride Deception 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLfRW4MXnGk

Fluoride Action Network
http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[Sunkissed]

Just a question...How exactly do we know that fluoride is that beneficial? People have lived millions of years on this earth without "treating" their water with this substance and I'm sure their teeth were fine.

Animals & fish have teeth too and I'm sure that's not the rule for them. One suggestion is to eat more fruits & veggies & drink more water.

Just curious to hear feedback because water is not supposed to be contaminated.

[IanW99]

Just a question...How exactly do we know that fluoride is that beneficial? People have lived millions of years on this earth without "treating" their water with this substance and I'm sure their teeth were fine.

Animals & fish have teeth too and I'm sure that's not the rule for them. One suggestion is to eat more fruits & veggies & drink more water.

Just curious to hear feedback because water is not supposed to be contaminated.

Flouride is actually found in nature already and in many water supplies without being artificially added.

It was discovered that in areas with high flouride content in the water that the people suffered less tooth decay problems, which is how they know that it is beneficial.

That said, it is only known to be benficial to teeth, who knows what harm it may also cause.

Ian

[Tia Maria]

Just a question...How exactly do we know that fluoride is that beneficial? People have lived millions of years on this earth without "treating" their water with this substance and I'm sure their teeth were fine.

Animals & fish have teeth too and I'm sure that's not the rule for them. One suggestion is to eat more fruits & veggies & drink more water.

Just curious to hear feedback because water is not supposed to be contaminated.

What makes you think people's teeth have been fine throughout history?

Check out the history part of this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_caries

The fact they have found tooth decay evidence from prehistory, when life expectancy was a lot shorter than today, shows it has always been an issue. Although I believe in America it became a lot bigger problem when the sugar plantations came along in the 1700s.

Also can't people's pets have tooth decay?

I don't think wild animals don't have tooth decay, but I would have thought that any animal in the wild that suffered from losing its teeth would simply lose its ability to feed itself and would die. I would have also thought there were a lot more others things that they could die of first, before any problems that tooth decay could cause could kill them.

Cheers

Tia

[Familyofmonkeys]

I think the issue here is risk versus benefit. There are plenty of issues with adding fluoride, not least concerning fluorosis of the teeth where people have been exposed to too much fluoride, for example where individuals have used fluoride toothpaste, fluoride mouthwash and often children being given fluoride supplements too. However the cost saving of dental care from protecting many, many people (a considerable number of which are unable to afford regular dental care) from tooth decay as opposed to a smaller number of people with dental fluorosis is a convincing arguement for widespread fluoridation of drinking water. There are of course issues with damage to other parts of the body, but that is the same with everything you consume, for example if you get too much vitamin C in your diet it reduces your bodies absorption of Vitamin B12 and copper.

[enki]

Flouride is actually found in nature already and in many water supplies without being artificially added.

Ian I am sorry to disagree with you but you are in fact incorrect. The Fluoride we are actually referring to here on the whole is added and is not organic. It is actually a 'waste' product from the aluminium industry. The Fluoride added to our municipal water supplies is the cheapest way of disposing of this toxic metal.

It was discovered that in areas with high fluoride content in the water that the people suffered less tooth decay problems, which is how they know that it is beneficial.

There is simply not been enough research to substantiate these claims and all factors have not been taken into account including dietary and lifestyle. For example research Dr WESTON A. PRICE, MS., D.D.S., F.A.G.D.... a dentist and doctor... then look at areas around the world that consume processed and refined foods verses natural seasonal foods and you find that tooth decay is rampant where, in particular, bread or refined sugars are consumed. Look at acid type foods verses alkaline foods and you have a much bigger picture. Bread being very high on the acid forming list... very high and that’s why you need to brush a minimum of twice a day to clean your teeth from acid forming foods... the molecules of flour allow it to get into the smallest of places and do its thing... rot your teeth so brushing after every meal where processed foods have been consumed is very important. The fluoride argument is superior until you take a look at 'all' the facts and evidence.

This picture is from Dr WESTON A. PRICE's book
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h-images/Fig.6.jpg
Above: brothers, Isle of Harris. The younger at left uses modern food and has rampant tooth decay. Brother at right uses native food and has excellent teeth. Note narrowed face and arch of younger brother. Below: typical rampant tooth decay, modernized Gaelic. Right: typical excellent teeth of primitive Gaelic.

Also look at other chronic diseases where aluminium is being highlighted... alzheimers being just one.

Incidentally for anyone who is interested Dr WESTON A. PRICE wrote a book called “Nutrition and Physical Degeneration - A Comparison of Primitive and Modern Diets and Their Effects ” and it’s well worth a read.

[IanW99]

Ian I am sorry to disagree with you but you are in fact incorrect. The Fluoride we are actually referring to here on the whole is added and is not organic.
...
There is simply not been enough research to substantiate these claims and all factors have not been taken into account including dietary and lifestyle.
...

Sorry, I was not intending to mislead at all, I wasn't trying to suggest that adding fluoride to water was a good idea, just that it is found in some water supplies naturally and this is how they discovered that fluoride is beneficial to teeth.

You are quite correct that the fluoride that they add to water supplies is in no way natural.

Not sure that I agree with your argument that fluoride doesn't reduce the incidence of tooth decay?

Ian

[mossum]

sorry to bring this back to the topic - rather than the "great fluoride debate " :roll :roll :roll - cause we ain't ever going to agree on this one people !

Back in sunny Lancashire we also did not have fluoridated water - our advice ( as an oral health educator ) to parents was to brush with adult tooth paste , but to use only a pea sized amount . Gel type pastes are often not as "stingy " for little ones as regular tooth paste . Remember toothpaste is essentially a medicine & should be stored away from little hands .

As well as no fluoride in the water - Lancashire also boasts the highest dmf (decayed missing filled) rates for children in England - 2nd only in the UK to Glasgow .

Yes you can have a fluoride treatment "in chair " at the dentist - nice flavours too ! alternatively there are "at home " weekly or monthly fluoride mouth rinses available too .

Vic

[enki]

The reasons we have such high levels of tooth decay today is due to the fact that we have been ill educated with regards to what foods we should eat and what foods we should not! We have also been ill educated with not just oral hygiene but also our health and fitness and the importance of exercise. Our bodies were never designed to eat cooked or processed foods so refined foods are obviously a no no. Most of the food consumed today is ACID forming food depleted of trace minerals and vitamins and this is one of the key reasons why we have rampant tooth decay. Arguments for and against fluoride should be backed up with firm evidence and there is absolutely none Just very carefully worded documents!

Importantly much research has been done on tooth decay, mercury amalgam fillings (silver fillings), processed and refined foods and the effect on the human body. If god meant for us all to eat cooked foods he would have strapped a cooker onto our backs. Remove cooked and processed foods from our diets and you basically have minor tooth problems. Our bodies were designed to work in harmony with plants and other living vegetation in a symbiotic relationship. Drug and phramacutical firms take plant components and synthesize them making them very powerful however one should always ask where they came from and what they have become. From the moment we eat food our saliva glands release digestive juices which we should help to mix with our food by thoroughly chewing before swallowing then our stomach with a target PH of 2.5 takes over to help breakdown the food further then pancreas realises a small amount of digestive enzymes to further help break the food up. Then the most important part happens when the food is absorbed into the villa. This system was designed to work primarily with ‘living’ food because the pancreases simply cannot be burdened with a life time of cooked food or there will be consequences as the small intestines and other organs fail to absorb macro and micro nutrients and key organs start to solidify and become diseased hence why in the long term you see many degenerative disease 30, 40, 50 years old.

Once you accept the merrygoround system and eat make-believe-food you can only expect make-believe-health. We can live in ignorance and believe that cooked food laced with pesticides, trans fats, growth hormones, depleted enzymes and zero nutrients etc are fine but we are going to pay for it in the long term. If we look at what’s going on to our grandparents and parents the signs are all there. It’s not a bad thing to question government health systems and how or why they feel we should consume certain foods or drink municipal water contaminated with compounds we know nothing about. All I am saying is it’s your body don’t be afraid of researching for yourself after all you have your best interests at heart!

Regarding the fluoride debate I don’t subscribe to the so called evidence because there is no evidence just carefully worded reports and documents. I do not work in the health or hygiene sectors and have nothing to gain from posting here. My point is to get people to think about the food and water we put in our mouths and the effect it has on our bodies. Thinking about where you want to be in say 30 – 50 years and what heath you want for you and your family... this is what I ask of my decisions and choices. I believe I am fully accountable and responsible for my children and plan of doing the very best I can to help ensure they have the best life ever.

Intresting link:

Senior doctors allege lack of evidence on fluoride safety - # The Guardian, Friday October 5 2007
The government is accused by senior doctors today of selectively using inadequate evidence to promote the use of fluoride in the water supply...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/oct/05/health.politics (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)

[castleclan]

Good grief! If we all went into this much detail about all that passed our lips we wouldn't have any time to live. Unfortunately, I feel that I live in the 21st century and could not go back to man's earliest diet even if I wanted to. Balance rather than excess in all things seems the most sensible approach to me.
What I do know is that water didn't have flouide added when I grew up and I was a regular tooth brusher but I had several fillings from about 8 onwards. My children have grown up with flouride added to the water and have no fillings at all.
Of course I do wander about the problem mentioned with increased Alzheimers and probably other diseases but within reason can't stress to much because what ever we do is killing us. ( I read somewhere that breathing oxygen damages our cells)
I feel I want to have a bit of perspective on my life and enjoy it cos something will kill you in the end and it could be a bus tommorrow.

[enki]

Good grief! If we all went into this much detail about all that passed our lips we wouldn't have any time to live. Unfortunately, I feel that I live in the 21st century and could not go back to man's earliest diet even if I wanted to. Balance rather than excess in all things seems the most sensible approach to me.

I also live in the 21st century. Seeing someone you care for slowly and painfully die of cancer does something to you on a deep level. Knowledge and understanding of air, food, water cooked or uncooked etc allows one to make an informed choice. Comprehension of what happens to enzymes in both states is very important. I didn’t say I didn’t eat cooked food! I just don’t eat only cooked food in fact I eat only 20% cooked food when I eat cooked food that is :-) Your comprehension of balance and assumption of sensible eating clearly differ to mine.

What I do know is that water didn't have flouide added when I grew up and I was a regular tooth brusher but I had several fillings from about 8 onwards. My children have grown up with flouride added to the water and have no fillings at all.

Again lifestyle plays a huge part and there are so many parameters that you are not including in your experiences so your automatic conclusion is to fall into the belief system and rely on others rather than doing your own research and studies.

Of course I do wander about the problem mentioned with increased Alzheimers and probably other diseases but within reason can't stress to much because what ever we do is killing us. ( I read somewhere that breathing oxygen damages our cells)

I feel I want to have a bit of perspective on my life and enjoy it cos something will kill you in the end and it could be a bus tommorrow.

I love the red bus argument... we have been programmed to think that one day we will die so who cares what happens because we are going to die! For me it’s the journey that’s important and I care and I want to be there in good health for my children and wife and not accept ignorance. I want my children to comprehend the food chain and to feel something for the packaged animal in the supermarket rather than ignorantly pick it up and stick it in a basket and pay for it... how was it treated... what was it fed on are just basic questions that escape most people. Educating oneself about what passes your lips should not be joked about or ridiculed likewise the type of Fluoride should be clearly explained where it comes from before adding it to your water supply. Incidentally I note you come from Suffolk... Anglian Water very kindly list all poisons and toxins in their water supply on their website - a great read!

A simple analogy is a wave crashing on the cliffs of Dover... in a month there is very little erosion in fact in 12 months you can’t see any noticeable damage but repeated over many years you see meters disappearing! For example understand what Ureic acid does to your body... understand what foreign proteins do to your glands and you start to see that like the cliffs of Dover over time its best to take some kind of action or preventative measure if not when degenerative diseases kick in like the unprotected cliffs damage will follow.

[Wonderbob]

Did you know that NZ's drinking water doesn't have fluoride that protect your teeth like UK's water?



That statement is incorrect. The majority of NZ is in fact represented by fluoridated water supplies, although the local councils of smaller rural areas may decide not to fluoridate. Petone, part of Lower Hutt city, chooses not to fluoridate, but this is very unusual in urban centres throughout the country.

[renew]

That statement is incorrect. The majority of NZ is in fact represented by fluoridated water supplies, although the local councils of smaller rural areas may decide not to fluoridate. Petone, part of Lower Hutt city, chooses not to fluoridate, but this is very unusual in urban centres throughout the country.

Not all of the Uk has flouridated water either. Where I grew up did but where I am living now does not. Flouridation when it was first done did have a dramatic reduction in tooth decay ( ~40% reduction) however as toothpaste is now generally got flourine in it would ovbiously have a smaller impact.

[kanatakiwi]

A bit of a side issue to this debate but I had my (Auckland) water checked a couple of years ago as I thought it smelled of too much chlorine. When they tested (for cholorine and flouride) the chlorine was under the legal limit but still much higher than it needed to be, and the flouride was so high it was off the reading meter on their machine. The chemicals are added by a private company who is contracted to do this, and apparently they got it wrong. This completely freaked me out. This could completely affect people's health and it apparently was being left in the hands of some cowboys. And if it was reading that at my house, it was the same for every other person in Auckland. They corrected the situation (but who knows if it had happened before or has happened again) I bought a water filter for my kitchen tap.

[enki]

Sorry to disappoint you but your water filter will not stop chlorine or fluoride as the PPMs are so small they pass right on through. You really need to be looking at RO for municipal water or a rain water catchment system with a UV filter. Of course you could consider verified bottled water.

You may also like to keep tabs on your municipal water by using a PPM meter... good clean water should have a PPM of about 70 PPM or less with a target PH of around 7.5 but most municipal water hits the 400 - 500 mark and over this I wouldn’t even wash in it. I found over 50 known contaminants in my local municipal supply including 2 WI & WII toxins which were later used for crop and pest control.

Again I would kindly ask anyone who claims that fluoridation works to refer to any documents as there is no scientific evidence that it works just very carefully worded documents.

[Tia Maria]

I've found this whole debate quite interesting. I must admit, the amount of fluoride in the water hasn't come up much in NZ or the UK.

Is it maybe a bigger concern in the USA and Canada (by bigger, I mean more people talking about it)?

Cheers

Tia

[kanatakiwi]

Probably not so many people talking about it in Canada, because I don't think there are that many places that still do it. I know they don't do it in Victoria where I used to live. There was a huge debate about 20 years ago, But I think with the flouride treatments at the dentist every time you get your teeth cleaned,and with flouride toothpaste, it was not so necessary to flouride the water.

[Leanne]

Probably not so many people talking about it in Canada, because I don't think there are that many places that still do it. I know they don't do it in Victoria where I used to live. There was a huge debate about 20 years ago, But I think with the flouride treatments at the dentist every time you get your teeth cleaned,and with flouride toothpaste, it was not so necessary to flouride the water.

I actually thought they still added the flouride into the water here (Winnipeg). I guess that's something to check into. Do most people have a fluoride treatment every time they visit the dentist because I haven't in over 15 years...must be due to my wonderful smile! :laugh

Okay, I just googled and Winnipeg adds chlorine, orthophosphate and fluoride to the water.

[castleclan]

ENKI, I mean no offence to anyone and believe in free choice.
I don't disagree with anything you said ( or anyone else) but personally find that I am out working, sharing time with the family and enjoying life and won't spend all my spare time researching all variables in everything me or my family eat / do. Nor can we afford to make some of the choices I would like to make.

I do take notice of research at times and try to think about the choice I make but would go mentally ill if I worried about it all. I too have watched family members die of cancer, road accidents and old age. Each of has do do what suits us best so long as it does not intentionally cause harm to others.

[lockstock]

I wince when I hear the 'hit by a bus' response. Trouble is, buses don't always kill do they? They paralyse, they cause amuptations, they do a good line in persistent vegetative state. They hurt quite a lot if you don't avoid them.

[enki]

ENKI, I mean no offence to anyone and believe in free choice.
I don't disagree with anything you said ( or anyone else) but personally find that I am out working, sharing time with the family and enjoying life and won't spend all my spare time researching all variables in everything me or my family eat / do. Nor can we afford to make some of the choices I would like to make.

I do take notice of research at times and try to think about the choice I make but would go mentally ill if I worried about it all. I too have watched family members die of cancer, road accidents and old age. Each of has do do what suits us best so long as it does not intentionally cause harm to others.

We have slightly gone off topic and my point here is that there is no conclusive evidence and that anyone who believes fluoridation works should refer to the reports or documents so others can see that it is nonsense. Also please understand we are not talking about organically occurring Fluoride but synthetically produced from the waste of the aluminium industry... the chemical structures are very different so are the effects on the human body.

[renew]

Hi,
Can your clarify -Do you mean that flouride ( rinses , toothpaste etc) does not work to reduce dental problems or specifically that flouride added to water has no effect?
cheers

Ian

[enki]

Ian the Fluoride Action Network website is quite comprehensive and will answer most if not all your questions. http://www.fluoridealert.org/

The industrial chemicals used to fluoridate water may present unique health risks not found with naturally-occurring fluoride complexes . The chemicals - fluorosilicic acid, sodium silicofluoride, and sodium fluoride - used to fluoridate drinking water are industrial waste products from the phosphate fertilizer industry (http://fluoridealert.org/media/2002b.html). Of these chemicals, fluorosilicic acid (FSA) is the most widely used. FSA is a corrosive acid which has been linked to higher blood lead levels (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2001/mar01/flouride.html) in children. A recent study (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/25017.php) from the University of North Carolina found that FSA can - in combination with chlorinated compounds - leach lead from brass joints in water pipes, while a recent study from the University of Maryland suggests that the effect of fluoridation chemicals on blood lead levels may be greatest in houses built prior to 1946. Lead is a neurotoxin that can cause learning disabilities and behavioral problems in children. (20-23)

REF:

10 Facts about Fluoride
http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoride-facts.htm

[nellyt]

An old thread, but the subject field is directly relevant....

After nearly 40 years on the UK with pretty good teeth I just went to the dentist here in ChCh (a recommended one so don't think they are wriping me off), having had my last checkup in the UK before we left about 16 months ago.

Well, my teeth have gone to pot. Yes I'm drinking a little bit more coffee/sugar than I used to but not the the extent that I suddenly need about 8 fillings :eek:. She said pretty quickly that it may be the fact my teeth have had 30+ years of fluoride and suddently don't.
Take a daily mounth wash was her advice.

Maybe its my fault but I'd wish I known this a year ago.

[James 1077]

It could also be the UK Dentist issue - a friend from work just had to spend a fortune (luckily she was insured) on her teeth as when she went to the dentist for a checkup (and again it was a highly recommended one) the dentist almost fainted in horror at the state of her teeth! She had seen the dentist in the UK just before flying out 6 months beforehand and had got a "clean bill of health".

Apparently it is reasonably common when your previous dentist was NHS according to the NZ dentist.