[batgirl1001]

:confused:It was reported in the Singapore CNA report yesterday, that 10,000 Asians in New Zealand marched in protest against racially-motivated attacks made against the Asian community recently in the past few months.

The 30-sec news blip reported that 3 Asians (an Indian, an elderly Chinese lady and another Chinese lady) were robbed and killed in different incidences in the past few months prompting the Asians in New Zealand to declare that not enough is being done to prevent or protect the community from these "hate crimes".

I am not sure about the accuracy of this news report but I don't believe CNA sensationalises news reports in general and this was obtained from Reuters.

But has this news reached the rounds in NZ? Has the media made a sensational piece about this or was this an exaggerated media report?

Speaking as an Asian, I would like to know the situation from a Kiwi point of view and of course get the "real" news about what's happening.

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

Sadly, this is true. There has been a recent spate. There were two, possibly three savage attacks in the same vicinity of Manakau (south Auckland) over the course of about 10 days.

It is concentrated in the more poverty stricken areas, of course, and it is a sad fact of life tht this is where the highest collection of asians are resident alongside the dissafected drug taking youth.

No different to what happens in the poorer areas of any other city in the world, there just seems to have been a few close together recently.

Overall it feels like this sort of crime/violence happens less often in NZ, but of course there are significantly fewer people here than most 1st world nations.

Let's hope a 'spate' or statistical blip in occurrance is exactly what this was, although it is sad and deplorable whenever and to whomever it happens in any location.

[dharder]

Are they raciallyy motivated, though? Are they 'hate crimes'? From what I read, they sound like opportunistic crimes that go on in South Auckland. I didn't get the feeling that these people were targeted because of their race.

Obviously, in some cases, it is difficult to tell the motives apart and classify a crime as one thing or the other, but I don't get the sense that these are racially motivated crimes.

Not that that makes them any less horrible or despicable.

However, vigilante groups are really not the way to go in any case, and I find that really worrying.

Daniela

[Nathan]

Here's what NZHerald has to say.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10520221

IMHO characterizing the attacks as 'hate crimes' is a stretch.

[xanctus]

Are they raciallyy motivated, though? Are they 'hate crimes'? From what I read, they sound like opportunistic crimes that go on in South Auckland. I didn't get the feeling that these people were targeted because of their race.

Daniela

If you are asian, you might feel that way.
This feeling about discrimination is not just on crime related, but even down to job searching.
How true this feeling is? well it's all relative...but it's out there.

[dharder]

If you are asian, you might feel that way.

I'm not doubting that, nor am I doubting that there is racism or that it is directed at Asians.

But I think there is a difference between hate crimes and 'normal' crimes, and that the way to approach them is potentially different. So in my opinion, it makes sense to classify crimes as motivated by different things and then address those motives in different ways.

If you have a hate crime, for example, it is not enough to lock up the criminal, but you need, I believe, look at the deeper issue of racism/sexism/homophobia/whatever they hated.

Daniela

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

Good point Daniela, I agree.

On reflection I tend to believe that the particular crimes in question here were not actually racially motivated, as you say. The fact that the victims were all asian is, most likely, coincidental.

It is still true, though, that these sorts of crimes happen more often in poorer areas which, in turn, have a higher percentage of asian, Maori and minority groups living there. It is therefore not hard to see how racial motivation can easily be argued as a cause when the chances are higher that an asian will be the victim, wheras in reality the motivator is more likely poverty.

Whether the victim is black, white, red, green or yellow doesn't make the crime any more, or less, horrible for those affected of course, nor should it be treated any more or less seriously than if it were anywhere else.

[xanctus]

Daniela,
I agree with what you've said...that's why I said it's all relatives (not solid assumption)
However, as we all know..there were some demonstration in Botany down by anti asian immigration thing. So yeah, many asians feel that way due to the fact that many slogan/political views about how negative asian immigration are for NZ eco/life lately.

[James 1077]

I doubt that the crimes are hate crimes but I think that it is possible that Asians are being targetted.

This is because most of the crimes seem to be opportunistic attacks and these are generally going to be directed on "weaker" people.

If you saw two people carry handbags and one was a big pacific island woman and the other was a little old asian lady then which bag would snatch?

This could be another reason that it appears that asians are being targetted.

[migratory birds]

Whether the victim is black, white, red, green or yellow doesn't make the crime any more, or less, horrible for those affected of course, nor should it be treated any more or less seriously than if it were anywhere else.

But it DOES make a difference.

Imagine you were the father of a child with a condition many people don't understand, for example, Down Symdrome. And there were several brutal attacks targeting several of the Down's children in your community within a short period of time. You would have a inside perspective on those crimes that others would not have. And your level of fear for your own child would be far higher than those parents whose children did not have Down's because the underlying motives of the attackers were seeming to target only those kids with a very defined special need.

And the fact that the chlldren targeted had Down's does make it more horrible because not only were they brutal crimes but the common thread was that ALL affected were members of a misunderstood group of individuals.

Not only does the investigation need to address those acts of violence but also the underlying hatred/lack of understanding of those with Down's. What was it that could have fueled those fires within some sick minds? And what can be done to inform others of the value of those with Down's in their communities to ensure not one more child is hurt.

It could be very easy for people to say the crimes were not motivated by a hatred of those with Down's but that they were randomly selected. But when all are representatives of the same population...we must look much deeper than what meets the eye on the surface. And what degree did premeditation have on the attacker's choices?

It can be terribly easy for those in non-oppressed groups to brush off hate crimes and minimize the effects on the psyche of those affected.

See the following link FMI on how communities across America have responded to hate crimes in their communities.

http://www.pbs.org/niot/about/niot1.html

It started when Jews in a western community were singled out and whose homes were vandalized...within hours, menorahs were showing up in the windows of homes throughout the community, in the windows of Jews and non-Jews. The attackers could no longer know who was Jewish and who was not. And they knew that they could not continue on in the face of silence. The community was fully there for those at-risk of being attacked.

Now, if Aucklanders, or Kiwi's nationwide could come forth to support its Asian population in a similar way, ties of greater understanding and support would be created.

[batgirl1001]

Hate-related crimes are disturbing to me because they indicate more than an underlying problem associated with poverty and socio-economic status and that is perhaps due to underlying cultural misunderstandings, prejudicial misconceptions, and unintegration.

Perhaps there is a lack of community, governmental effort to promote racial and religious harmony between people of different backgrounds in NZ. And this is crucial given that Manukau City and South Auckland is racially heterogenous and people of different races and communities live side by side but are not necessarily friendly or neighbours to each other.

I am not sure but I am making a guess that Asians in Auckland perhaps feel left out in NZ society somehow. They are somehow not as integrated into NZ society as the rest of the other migrants and perhaps that leads to a feeling of being "racially discriminated" .

If the numbers are correct (10,000 Asians) marched in Auckland, then it is not a small number who feel this way given that we may conclude that there are far many others who do not march.

Somehow the news of this protest makes me feel uneasy since I plan to move to NZ soon. Hopefully this problem would be solved in the meantime.

However if this is just a crime of opportunity in which somehow Asians were the unfortunate victims, then it is just an anomaly and the tensions might fade away.

[James 1077]

I think that your Down's analogy is a bit wrong as if there was a spate of attacks on Down's kids then you would be pretty sure that they were being attacked because of their Down's syndrome (due to the low number of Down's children as a percentage of the population).

When it comes to Asians in Manakau however it is more difficult to state whether this is a) a statistical anomaly, b) racial hatred, or c) racial targetting for non-hate reasons (ie smaller and less likely to fight back).

If it is the first then we're likely to see a "regression to the mean" where this is simply an anomaly and anything that is done will make it all go back to the normal level of crime.

The final two are harder to work out unless the perpetrators are caught. And with talk of vigilante groups roaming the streets then some major police presence is also needed to stop further attacks.

My opinion is that it is most likely to the final reason - asians are generally not as strong and so more likely to be targetted by an opportunistic thief.


With respect to whether this cuold escalate to hate crimes in the future then, unfortunately, I think that this is possible. One of the things that surprises me most when around Auckland is how the various races don't mix a great deal and are determined to keep "their culture". Situations like this will give rise to tensions between the various communities in the future for the simple reason that there are various communities. When everyone sees themselves as New Zealanders rather than New Zealand European, Asian, Pacific Islands etc then the potential for race hate diminishes.

From what I've seen at work though this will happen as most of the Asians that I work with (we don't have too many Pacific Islanders) will say that they are Kiwis first and Asian second.

[sweetpea]

The severity of the crimes are hopefully an anomaly, but the discrimination faced by people of Asian descent in New Zealand is real, and deep-seated. Neither does it appear that there is much move to combat the prejudice, unfortunately, either in the education system or the media.

[Nick88]

Thank you James, you have saved me alot of typing, I agree entirely with you.

Batgirl wrote "Perhaps there is a lack of community, governmental effort to promote racial and religious harmony between people of different backgrounds in NZ" Sadly, I think this is the half the problem, the more the do-gooders point out racial differences (they call it celebrating our differences) the less people will look at one another as equals. Concentrating on things like race or disability means that others will see and treat you differently.

I grew up in Hong Kong where nobody cared what creed or colour you were, they tended to judge you as a person. I suppose this is because so many relationships there are business based, and money is colourblind. Unfortunately politicians and, it would seem journalists, are not.

If I were treated differently because I was a minority (in HK I was) or disabled, I would feel patronised and insulted.

[DB]

If I've assimilated the news reports correctly, Asians are being targeted because they carry large quantities of ready money. A TV interviewer stood outside a supermarket asking Asian women how much money they had in their bags, and most had significant cash, one with over a thousand bucks.

New Zealand is almost a cashless society, with the near ubiquity of EFTPOS transactions, so most people carry just a few bucks. My wallet has just $13 in it, mainly 'cos sausage sizzles still want gold coin. Leading one to surmise that this time last week I had $15.

If you were Mr Robber, would you pick on me, male, 100KG+, probably carrying virtually nothing, or a slight-framed Asian lady, with handbag over shoulder, hands full of shopping or trolley, probably carrying hundreds of dollars?

So are these racially motivated attacks? Depends on your point of view. It is entirely consistent with the model the London Police used (and may still use for all I know) which involved disproportionately large numbers of blacks being "stopped and searched", however the Police described their selection tactics as being "intelligence led" rather than being "racially motivated"...

[batgirl1001]

I don't think pointing out differences between races and cultures is a means to further create situations where people don't see themselves as equals but rather it is a means to show what is special about each and everyone of a different race and culture.

Finding out a thing or two about another person's culture doesn't make you conscious of your differences but rather you learn something new and appreciate and respect the person's beliefs, customs and rituals.

I believe that inter-cultural exchanges is probably the way to go if we want to diffuse racial tensions in the communities of South Auckland.

Crime against Asians was probably a situation of opportunity presenting itself since Asians are perceived to me wealthy and carrying loads of money around at all times making themselves easier targets.

But racial discrimination against Asians is perhaps a real issue since 10,000 people who marched in protest are not victims of crime but most likely have experienced some or a lot of discrimination and biasness in the past and probably the perception that there is an escalation of crimes against Asians is the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

[Super_BQ]

Sorry for being late reading this post... My wife advised me about these events happening in NZ while abroad in Canada. I'm not suprised one bit about these incidences.

I will say from my experience, and no offense to anyone but, i've been living in NZ and Canada for the past 10 years and I can assure you that discrimination among race is far more prevalant in NZ than in Canada. Being a chinese Canadian, there are many areas in NZ that can be improved upon. I will refer to facts instead of heresay. What i've seen while growing up in Canada is that the % of visable minorities in all levels of gov't and in the tv new media has been of equal representation to the population of the country. I remember during the early 1990s, the RCMP police force in Canada was predominantly white. So great steps were made to recruit visable minorities (not just chinese people but also east indians etc.) This not only happened in the police force but also in the private sector. Large companies with more than 100 employees by law must have a 10% visable minority mix in their workforce. The interesting aspect was to date, i've not heard of any case where a major corporation in Canada had problems of not meeting that 10% minority mix.

I'm sure there are many of those that would disagree with such a law. Discriminiation and race is one issue in the workforce. But also having the best person for the job is also just as important.

But with the way the NZ media has handled about recent asian cases, it's quite clear they don't practice a rule of impartiality.

Something I discovered about the charter of rights in NZ is that, it's not based as a rule of defense like the Canadian Charter of Rights & Freedom in Canada. In that charter, the right of freedom in religious beliefs (no matter what race you come from) is alone, a defence in court. For example, if an east indian police officer insists the he must wear a turban instead of the traditional police hat, then there's nothing the police force can do. It is his right and his religion - so as long it doesn't pose a threat or a safety issue.

Unfortunately in NZ, the media has painted a picture that it's not safe to carry cash in your wallet even if 1 particular group chooses to do so as "part of their culture". What is quite clear is that it's not suitable for people to be different in NZ without prejudice.

BQ

[James 1077]

What is quite clear is that it's not suitable for people to be different in NZ without prejudice.

And quite right too.

Instead of focusing on differences (which is what these discriminatory laws around "ethnic minorities" do) people should focus on similarities. People aren't different no matter how they look so why should we have laws that focus on differences?

I can't stand all these positive discriminatory - thou shalt have X many ethnic minorities in your company or you are breaking the law simply increases racism and race hatred as people get fed up that they are being disadvantaged on the grounds of their race.

I don't think NZ has it right - as there is too much in the way of looking at differences; but it is definitely better than a lot of other places that I've been too. And all it needs is people to mix more and not focus on what is different but on what is similar.

[beanbeanz]

I've lived in four different countries, and honestly have never experienced the *gasp, dare I say it* racism that I have in New Zealand. I am a Canadian of East Indian ethnicity, so while I have a Canadian accent, my skin is brown.

Living in Christchurch has been quite a shock. People here readily talk about "the Asians", "those maoris" and "the gays". I honestly cannot believe some of the conversations I hear.

The other day I carried a SEALED drink onto the bus with me, said hello to the driver and paid my fare. The driver responded to me with "You, sit in the front seat so I can watch what you do with that drink".

A couple weeks ago I went into a local bank to apply for a credit card and was told that I couldn't get one because I'm on a work visa. Fair enough. I then read on this forum that banks would issue a credit card provided you held an amount worth the value of credit in a term deposit with them. So, I went back to the bank the next day proposing this and was told that they don't do that. I tried another branch of the same bank and was told the same thing. A couple days later I applied online and received a call later in the day from the bank saying that I wasn't eligible for a card because of my visa status, however they'd be happy to issue me one if I would put some money aside in a term deposit. Interesting.

My cousin was walking down the road outside of CPIT in Christchurch when a man riding a bike slowed down beside him, spat on him and then rode off.

Do what you want with this post. I'm just putting it out there.

[Spooky]

What you experienced, beanbeanz, was awful. :mad: I am so sorry that happened (and what happened to your cousin too). I just hope with more global exposure people become more culturally and racially sensitive. One can only hope...

[migratory birds]

Putting my (interracial) family into the jaws of racism is truly one of my greatest fears about moving to NZ. Two of the very UGLIEST, most painful racist comments I've ever heard about Asians were made by Kiwi's (who are living here in the US) speaking of their experiences with Asians in NZ.

While my family didn't experience any outright racism while visiting NZ - mostly SI - I did come away from that trip sadly feeling like it may be Auckland...only...for us for the diversity and greater likelihood of acceptance there.

But I still question the potential for the damaging impact of racism on our family, esp in those adolescent years.

[Carol]

I must admit - I'm not surprised to read some of these posts......
Sad but true.
No matter where you go in the world, there are narrow minded individuals who can't see past others' race.

Some New Zealanders are certainly no exception.
Unfortunately.

[beanbeanz]

I agree, racism is everywhere in the world and it's a terrible thing. I have to say that the majority of people are helpful and friendly. Unfortunately though, it is the rare, one-off terrible experiences that stick with you. Good thing that as a secure adult I am able to feel sorry for ignorant people and the remarks and attitudes they have.
It is quite different for children though. I teach young children and have had little boys complain about other kids not wanting to play with them and calling them 'chink'. Then when you talk to the kids to hear the story from both sides you get "but my dad says ..."

[tigerlily]

The diversity here in Wellington seems to be balanced between many different countries of origin, could be because it's a capital city. But I the only negitive comments I've heard about Asian people were from someone from Auckland. I think if you want to live in a neighborhood that has mostly Asian folks, then you'd need to live in Auckland. If you want to live in a colorful, but not exclusive place, Wellington has a lot of neighborhoods that you'd fit into. I've seen lots of Asian faces at the supermarket in Miramar and Newtown. Wadestown, Ngaio, Khandallah seem to be lacking in diversity (and to me that's a bad thing).

My impression of the crimes that started this thread are that they were crimes, but not hate crimes.

[Alan]

The other day I carried a SEALED drink onto the bus with me, said hello to the driver and paid my fare. The driver responded to me with "You, sit in the front seat so I can watch what you do with that drink".

A couple weeks ago I went into a local bank to apply for a credit card and was told that I couldn't get one because I'm on a work visa. Fair enough. I then read on this forum that banks would issue a credit card provided you held an amount worth the value of credit in a term deposit with them. So, I went back to the bank the next day proposing this and was told that they don't do that. I tried another branch of the same bank and was told the same thing. A couple days later I applied online and received a call later in the day from the bank saying that I wasn't eligible for a card because of my visa status, however they'd be happy to issue me one if I would put some money aside in a term deposit. Interesting.


Whilst I am never going to excuse certain behaviours I hear in different countries around the world I am going to defend my new home with regards to the two points listed above.

Firstly, as far as the post goes the driver did not as far as you say call you a racist name or use a term, you have made that link yourself and assumed he was being racist. It could be that he is just an ignorant and ill mannered individual, who at some point in recent time had to clear up a load of mess on his bus.

Secondly, a colleague of mine that is most certainly very very white and from London was refused a credit card multiple times by the same bank until he had written twice to them.

Racism in whatever form is dreadful, but please ensure you deal in facts rather than using emotive and subjective viewpoints.

Lastly, it exists in every country in every part of the world because most people are citizens of their country and not the world. The U.S suffers dreadful racism, the UK does but it is less overt these days, and I am sure that if I as a white person, landed and tried to live in say Nigeria I would experience racism as a white person.

I am not excusing it but the original post drew a huge assumption and this seems to have continued.

[Ana&Steve]

My personal experience was also that I only heard Asian racial comments in Auckland. The comments were made by "blue collar workers" that were in a pub after work, folks who tend towards construction and labor jobs. I was shocked at first as Kiwis appear so comparatively docile to what I'm used to, but then I tried to picture the same people in the US and saw it as the "they took our jobs" kind of complaining that is almost a cliche in the US. I'm not saying it's right, just that I understood then that people need a scapegoat and the same conversation is repeated in some form all over the world every day.
Again, I am not trying to condone their words, just telling my experience and my conclusion was that it was the rants of the working class more than a dangerous animosity. I hope I'm right and hate crime never finds a permanent home in NZ.

[beanbeanz]

Alan, I do not wish to start an argument which is exactly why I said in my initial post "do what you want with this post".

Obviously, these are subjective anecdotal experiences of mine, but these are what I have experienced and I guess you would have to be living in my shoes to understand the difference between a rude/upset/arrogant person and someone who is treating you differently because of the colour of your skin. You don't need a person to blatantly call you specific names in order for it to be racist. In fact, I would prefer that over subtle, round about ways so that it IS more obvious to onlookers. I don't see much difference between being spat on and being talked to in a rude manner if the reasoning behind it is the same. Racism is racism.

Sure, there could've been many reasons for the bus driver to be upset over someone with a drink on the bus. BUT, there is NO way that she would've said what she did to me, in the tone she said it in, to an adult white male/female. There are so many other nicer ways she could've asked me not to open my drink while on the bus. But she didn't even ask me not to open the drink. She instructed me to sit 'where she could see what I was going to do with the drink'.

As for the bank, I applied in person twice and was refused, but when I applied online (to the SAME institution) I was accepted. Same information provided...the only variable was my presence (or lack thereof). One change of variable leads me conclude that was the reason for the change in result.

Maybe if you did go to Nigeria people would treat you differently or maybe stare at you a lot more than you're used to. But I don't think that would be comparing apples with apples. New Zealand claims to be a 1st world country. A lot more people here have access to television and the internet than they do in Nigeria. It's not like they've never seen someone with different coloured skin before, or differently shaped eyes. There's no excuse for it.

Like I also said before... the majority of people are friendly and helpful. Unfortunately though, racism exists and in MY experience (which yes, is subjective, emotive and anecdotal...because it's MINE) it's the worst racism I've experienced after living in 4 different countries.

[Joolzr]

I haven't been in Auckland long but there have been several occasions where I've noticed Asian and Chinese people being treated differently in shops etc. so am not suprised by Beanbeanz experinces. I've also had some pretty upsetting conversations with Europeans here. So far, this is my biggest issue with NZ.

I think the UK has gone through a very rapid change in attitudes towards race over the last decade. It's by no means perfect but I see a reason for optimism there. I'm hoping that NZ will change even faster.

[Sam B]

I haven't been in Auckland long but there have been several occasions where I've noticed Asian and Chinese people being treated differently in shops etc. so am not suprised by Beanbeanz experinces. I've also had some pretty upsetting conversations with Europeans here. So far, this is my biggest issue with NZ.

I think the UK has gone through a very rapid change in attitudes towards race over the last decade. It's by no means perfect but I see a reason for optimism there. I'm hoping that NZ will change even faster.

Me too

[Alan]

I have never defended racism and never will but I am sorry a lot of the above is not based in fact and yes my colleague at work only was accepted for a credit card once he wrote to the bank and not spoke to them.

Putting "do what you want with this post" on your opening post and then trying to say that I am somehow condoning racist behaviour is nonsense and I find it quite insulting as someone who has been involved with dealing with workplace bullying, harassment and racism.

[Dan_UK]

This is a bit scary, me and my fiancée and our daughter are looking to move to NZ soon. My partner is black and all these racism concerns are disconcerting.:(

[beanbeanz]

I have never defended racism and never will but I am sorry a lot of the above is not based in fact and yes my colleague at work only was accepted for a credit card once he wrote to the bank and not spoke to them.

Putting "do what you want with this post" on your opening post and then trying to say that I am somehow condoning racist behaviour is nonsense and I find it quite insulting as someone who has been involved with dealing with workplace bullying, harassment and racism.


I in no way stated that you were condoning racist behaviour. I was just trying to clarify for you why I felt that these situations were racially motivated because you appeared to be adamant that they were not. Just as you felt insulted that I might be accusing you of condoning such behaviour, so did I feel insulted when you told me that my experiences were not based on fact.

You may not appreciate them because you have not been in my shoes. I certainly noticed a difference in attitudes and reactions since coming to NZ compared to what I have experienced my entire life. I can only speak for myself and that is what I was expressing on this thread where people were discussing such incidents. You`re free to do the same, but please don`t tell me that what I`ve experienced is not fact.

[Alan]

I am going on what you have stated above and therefore according to the facts that you have put out. You are making the assumption that two people's behaviour is racist and there are possibly other explanations for it, there may not be, but I find it incredibly worrying that you are labelling people with a very serious accusation based on assumptions.

The fact is that accusing people of being racist when they possibly when not 110% sure is potentially just as damaging to those individuals as the racist behaviour that does absolutely happen.

You started your post assuming the world is against you, so I guess you will use myself as proving that to be only too true.

[Alan]

Furthermore, I have decided to ask to be removed from the forum as I find the behaviour exhibited on this link wrong and very wrong on a personal level.

[Carol]

:(

[Sam B]

Oh dear ...

[beanbeanz]

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you no longer want to be a part of the forum.

Assuming the world is against me though? C'mon, I mentioned a couple times previously that these were NOT the attitudes of the MAJORITY of people I have encountered.

It's just also not fair to let people assume that the sun is constantly shining and the grass is always green over here, because it's not.

I am still in NZ and am applying for PR so obviously that says something in itself.

[JandL]

I don't think that beanbeanz said anything out of order at all. Maybe people are reading far too much in words on a screen. I'm sure it is blatantly obvious to someone of a minority when they are being treated differently to others.

[JandM]

I feel JandL is right.

It is a shame that Alan feels the way he does. But it's a rather extreme reaction - to leave because beanbeanz didn't agree with him, over an incident they personally witnessed and he didn't.

[Alan]

After a night where I thought about this a lot, I came to the following conclusion. If these people were so definately being racist, something that none of us should allow, why isn't Beanbeanz filing complaints, at least against the bank?

Otherwise the actions are being condoned and allowed to go unchallanged.

My intention is to still leave the forum as the original post on this thread was sensational and others have followed the same track. Anyway, best go to work and when my boss swears in talking to me I will come on here and tell you factually that I have been subjected to workplace bullying.

[migratory birds]

For white folks to really begin to truly "get" it, it takes spending ample time with friends of color or being part of an interracial family, having open and ongoing discussions about "race" and racism, being willing to listen to histories and personal stories, keeping an open mind without needing to be right all the time or the one with all the knowledge, and witnessing firsthand those slight nuances, and sometimes painfully blatant comments/events, that affect those we care about who are not white.

Even though white folks can't "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" we can walk right beside those shoes and stand witness.

[Carol]

How true.
I have a friend who is Korean.....
Some of the things she has told me that white middle class women have said to her (In a very nice, white middle class suburban community north of Wellington!) actually makes me sick.
And no - I have never experienced that and probably never will.

And she wasn't actually complaining - just telling it like it is......albeit sadly. Things that she never experienced living in the north east of England for a number of years.


Her partner told me of a comment his BOSS made to an asian employee at dinner with him one night.
It was appalling.

Some people really need to pull their heads in.

[peebles16]

For white folks to really begin to truly "get" it, it takes spending ample time with friends of color or being part of an interracial family, having open and ongoing discussions about "race" and racism, being willing to listen to histories and personal stories, keeping an open mind without needing to be right all the time or the one with all the knowledge, and witnessing firsthand those slight nuances, and sometimes painfully blatant comments/events, that affect those we care about who are not white.

Even though white folks can't "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" we can walk right beside those shoes and stand witness.


Very well put :yes Totally agree

Karenx

[able]

Racism is hardly something practised exclusively by white people as implied above. My (white) wife got an NHS job in Blackburn and we moved there. In one year walking on public streets she was spat on twice, called a white bitch, and told to eff off out of "our area" several times.

I don't think I'd agree that racism is worse in New Zealand than Britain. People in "middle-class Britain" won't articulate their racism as readily as in some other countries. There is great pressure not to. For example a leaflet distributed by my son's school urged children to inform the school if their parents made any negative comments about people of other ethnicities. In that sort of atmosphere (who would ever have thought that British children, in the style of a repressive dictatorship, would be urged to submit reports to the authorities on what their parents say) anyone who values their non-criminal status is bound to be more measured about what they say. What they think and what actually goes on in poorer areas, given my wife's experience and plenty of press reports, is different.

In the past few years there have been dozens of real race-hate murders in Britain. Search the internet and you'll find a very depressing history. For example:

A white boy tortured and murdered by Asians: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article629969.ece

Last week an Asian murdered by a white: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/teenager-subjected-to-racist-tirade-before-his-throat-was-slashed-901862.html

I’d argue than dozens of murders don’t happen in isolation. Murders sit at the top of an iceberg of lesser crimes and unexpressed emotions. We may not be as racist in our language but what actually happens at street level suggests to me that British society is anything but at ease with itself. Per head of population, New Zealand has three times more immigrants than Britain. If Britain had as many immigrants, I'd rather not speculate about the problems that would result.

[JandM]

Alan said the original post on this thread was sensational It doesn't read that way to me. It seems to be asking for people's personal experience, to set beside and help the OP evaluate a news report.

Migratory Birds, you have put that beautifully. I will always remember a day when a Pakistani brother and sister (aged 10 and 12) got stranded at school after a club I'd been running, because a bus didn't come, so I gave them a lift home. Outside their house, I had the car boot open getting their bags out for them, when a man passing on the pavement started shouting obscenities at me for being a white women with Asian children getting out of my car. What he said was vile. It went on and on, at the top of his voice, till he'd turned the corner. I was so surprised that I didn't say anything (and I'm not usually ever lost for words). When I got my wits back, I turned round to the children, and said I was sorry they'd had to hear that. And they both came and put their arms round me, and the boy said, 'Don't mind us, Mrs C - we're used to it.'

I've no way of comparing the amount of racism in the UK and NZ, and to be honest, I doubt if it's even possible, because so many people are not prepared to be open on the subject, for so many different reasons, and from within different racial/cultural communities, too. I agree with Able that racism in the UK isn't only from white people directed at those of other ethnic backgrounds, but I think previous posters were sharing experiences they had had or heard about, so the picture wasn't necessarily going to be complete.

[jandals]

For white folks to really begin to truly "get" it, it takes spending ample time with friends of color or being part of an interracial family, having open and ongoing discussions about "race" and racism, being willing to listen to histories and personal stories, keeping an open mind without needing to be right all the time or the one with all the knowledge, and witnessing firsthand those slight nuances, and sometimes painfully blatant comments/events, that affect those we care about who are not white.

Even though white folks can't "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" we can walk right beside those shoes and stand witness.

None of the attacks referred to at the beginning of this thread were carried out by white people. Just a thought.

[James 1077]

There is racism in New Zealand, just as there is everywhere else in the world.

The most racist country that I've ever lived in is the United Arab Emirates where the colour of your skin denotes the maximum level you can reach (a black friend was openly turned down for jobs due to the fact he was black as "the workers wouldn't respect him").

Likewise in Britain a white friend of mine who worked for the police was unable to get a promotion as they needed to promote some Asian officers first in order to "redress their ethnic balance". Needless to say he left the force soon after.

In New Zealand there is definitely racism towards Asian people; but I would say that things are improving as people mix more. Half the guys in my office have Asian girlfriends, some of the girls have Asian boyfriends and everyone goes out after work for a drink together regularly.

The issues arise, like everywhere else, when you have segregated communities where people live side-by-side by do not mix. Also when people make no effort to absorb the local culture you'll get bigotry as people will focus on your differences. New Zealand's rules on having to speak English help with this as at least most people are capable of mixing (unlike the UK where it isn't even possible).

I also think that the lack of Political Correctness in New Zealand makes racism appear to be worse than elsewhere. Where in other countries people are racist by implication and action in New Zealand people will sometimes say things outright that are racist. They are probably similar to what people elsewhere are thinking but you don't know as they come out and say it. Personally I find the lack of Political Correctness to be refreshing, even though you do have to wince every now and again when people say things on TV / Radio. But I can imagine that it would be very different for a non-white New Zealander.

To go back to the bus / credit card issue my view is that it could have been racism but equally it could have been a lack of training / someone having a bad day. One of them could have been racism and the other not.
My guess, from what I've seen, is that the bus probably was to some extent (or it could have been racial stereotyping - where the driver had frequently had to deal with Asians spilling drinks and so was agressive because of that); and the bank was most likely to be a lack of training. Bank branch staff may not have previously dealt with the situation of someone wanting a credit card on a work visa and so said no. When you applied online it would have gone through to a department which specialises in credit card applications who would know all the rules.

[JandL]

After a night where I thought about this a lot, I came to the following conclusion. If these people were so definately being racist, something that none of us should allow, why isn't Beanbeanz filing complaints, at least against the bank?

I'll go out on a limb here and guess. As you said in your post, there are no facts against beanbeanz post, just feelings. Will complaining against it stop it? Maybe, maybe not. Possibly they want to avoid as much limelight as possible, forget it happened.

[migratory birds]

Racism is hardly something practised exclusively by white people as implied above.

I was referring to some of the comments made by the white poster on the previous page who, in this conversation, happened to be the one (and there's always one who comes out to defend him/herself, deny that others experience racism, and let others know that they, too, are oppressed) who came forth with a seemingly dreadful lack of understanding and acknowledgement of the subtle expressions of racism experienced firsthand by other forum members.

[Alan]

Migratory Birds, your comments have made me log back on because what a load of old rot that you have just posted full of even more assumptions. When did I say it didn't happen, yep don't think.

I thought I would try and point out yet again, what was put here and why I am saying what I am.

Looking at number one below that are other possible reasons for this persons behaviour, but there is also the chance they are racist, there is nothing there based in FACT that says they are certainly a racst

Number two, as stated before my white, english colleague was refused many times and only got a card when he had written twice to the banks head office

Number three, I don't think it takes a Sherlock to work that one out.

And it is my belief that accusing someone of being a racist person should be very much grounded in fact and you should not be free to throw it around. For those people concerned, if they were not racist, can you imagine how they would feel being accused like this? It is also potentially life wrecking for them in personal and professional terms.

If they are racist then thats different but we should not throw these terms around like its the thing to do. Obviously, people on here seem content to just "nail" people when they also were not there, and all we have to go are the facts that the poster put on the website. I am never going to back down on this point because I truly think that to change things you need make sure 110% that someone is what you are saying before accusing them and secondly I think racism is SO serious that any accusations need to also be treated as equally seriously.

The original post was sensational because again it made a link between very sad events and turned it into a racist attack. I believe that certainly for the Asian communities here life can be very difficult indeed and I think I would find it hard after all the attacks etc not to feel exposed.

[QUOTE=beanbeanz;235715]
(1) The other day I carried a SEALED drink onto the bus with me, said hello to the driver and paid my fare. The driver responded to me with "You, sit in the front seat so I can watch what you do with that drink".

(2) A couple weeks ago I went into a local bank to apply for a credit card and was told that I couldn't get one because I'm on a work visa. Fair enough. I then read on this forum that banks would issue a credit card provided you held an amount worth the value of credit in a term deposit with them. So, I went back to the bank the next day proposing this and was told that they don't do that. I tried another branch of the same bank and was told the same thing. A couple days later I applied online and received a call later in the day from the bank saying that I wasn't eligible for a card because of my visa status, however they'd be happy to issue me one if I would put some money aside in a term deposit. Interesting.

(3) My cousin was walking down the road outside of CPIT in Christchurch when a man riding a bike slowed down beside him, spat on him and then rode off.QUOTE]

[Sam B]

I just don't think that as white people we are ever in a position to deny the experiences of those who do experience racism. And why should we? We have to accept that racism exists, that it is not always possible to prove it with 'facts', that it is often a daily set of experiences that add up to a whole. And why should we get upset and offended when other people say they have experienced racism? Beanbeanz is the person who is best placed to know whether they have experienced racism or not.

[beanbeanz]

I'll go out on a limb here and guess. As you said in your post, there are no facts against beanbeanz post, just feelings. Will complaining against it stop it? Maybe, maybe not. Possibly they want to avoid as much limelight as possible, forget it happened.

Thanks JandL, this is exactly why.

Filing a complaint does nothing! What would happen if I filed a complaint? Would it somehow lead to a magical change? It would only lead to anger and resentment and does nothing to change thinking or behaviour.

It's not worth time nor effort on my part to file a complaint. There's nothing I can do as an individual to change a stranger's feelings or attitudes (short of trying to become best friends with them). It's not worth pursuing.

What is worth pursuing though, is the interactions I have with the kids in my class everyday. Helping them through their problems, playing, laughing and learning together. They're where the world is headed and that's where I intend on making the difference.

[jandals]

If banks were accused of racism every time tellers said one thing but admins did another, the law courts would be 10 feet deep in trial papers. When it comes to banks, cock-ups are far more common than conspiracies. I've been trying for months to get mine to send my statements to the right address. Still no luck.