[stellachiara]

So, I spent most of my day yesterday researching life in New Zealand, to get a complete idea of what we might be heading for if we decide to live there. Here are some of the ideas that I saw repeated over and over by those critical of New Zealand, and they are things that make me wary to make the move. What are your thoughts on these ideas?

1) Wages are low, cost of living is high.
It seems like people respond to this fact by feeling that it doesn't matter because money isn't everything and their quality of life is higher in other ways. Either that or they get mad and leave.

2) Houses are drafty and damp, thus heating bills are very high.
Why is this? It doesn't seem very green. Could you get your house insulated if you wanted, without breaking the bank?

3) There is a lot of racism, particularly against Asians.
The consensus of things I have heard people say is that well-educated people who would normally be ashamed to say racist things in the US or UK feel free to say racist things in NZ. And I experienced this more than once during our honeymoon there. Someone actually used the word "darkies" in a conversation with me, which shocked the hell out of me. If this is indeed as common as it seems, it could be a dealbreaker for us.

4) "She'll be right" mentality keeps things from improving or progressing.
I have heard this from both immigrants and Kiwis.

What is your experience with these things?

[Moorf]

Oh, great post - this should be interesting to follow!

My $0.02 :-

1) Wages are low, cost of living is high. You can have a lifestyle that does cost a lot, or you can have one that doesn't imho. Cutting the cloth accordingly comes to mind. Yes, you're paid less than in other countries, yes some things do cost more than in other countries, but you can live here on relatively little if you really want to be here. Had we transferred our UK lifestyle to NZ on NZ$ we'd have lasted a couple of months before being broke. I guess I fit in to your "it doesn't matter because money isn't everything and their quality of life is higher " category.

2) Houses are drafty and damp, thus heating bills are very high. Insert the word "some" at the beginning of that statement and you'd be spot on. You can have a house built, buy a well insulated house or insulate a house you buy - there's no requirement to live in a cold damp house.

3) There is a lot of racism, particularly against Asians. Yes, racism exists here as it does in plenty of other places. There's recently been a backlash from Asians in Auckland after a series of attacks. I haven't personally witnessed it, but then I'm not Asian. It's certainly on the news more now than when we first arrived.

4) "She'll be right" mentality keeps things from improving or progressing. Not sure about whether it stops things improving or progressing as I haven't heard it said when working with professionals in NZ as I know that where my OH works (computer programmer) they sure don't botch their code with a "she'll be right" attitude. Where we live rurally it's a common expression meaning "we'll fix that with a bit of wire and solder, don't need a new one" or "I'm not spending on vet fees, sheep happens" or "yeah, I know my roof is rusty and has holes in it but I'm not gonna stress over it - I'll fix it eventually" ;) To me it's typical Kiwi laidbackness, to others its laziness and lack of forward thinking... Ahhh, she'll be right!!

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

My opinion, for what it's worth on the above:

1) Wages are low. Yes, but I think improving over time, although slowly. Cost of living high. Personally I find it about the same as the UK all things considered.

2) Houses. Yes some can be cold and expensive to heat, but yes you can insulate them and there is an increasing wave of popularity in doing this, even from kiwi's born and bred, an increasing number of firms doing the work and products on offer. Minimum standards of insulation for new homes are becoming stricter too.

3) Sadly there is a higher level of racial intollerance here and phrases that you would never hear in public in UK or US you will hear here on occasion. I haven't noticed it happening a lot, such that it does stand out when you do hear it. True, asians bear the brunt, as seems to be the case worldwide, but also it happens from Maori's against whites. Personally come across it really quite infrequently. Having said that My MiL has been known to refer to "paki's" in the UK (much to my disgust) more than once, so it certainly isn't dead in the western world yet either.

4) "she'll be right". Yes, that does happen, but industry in general is rapidly moving to westernised style of operations and management in order to avoid being left behind, so this general attitude is very much on the decline.

Just my take on your questions, others may disagree.

[Tia Maria]

Stellachiara, how about making a downsides list for where you live also? Then compare the two.

Truth is there are downsides to everywhere, but certain ones are more important to people than others. You need to decide, which are your 'make or break' downsides, then decide whether NZ offers enough positives to compensate for this.

Its pretty difficult to take all the positives from your existing country and then only build on them with more positives in a new country - although you can't blame anyone for trying. You will have to give up some things that are better and take some things that are worse but you are looking to achieve a more positive balance overall - if that makes sense? Otherwise, you are right, the move isn't worth it.

Give the same fixed budget to 5 different people and they will probably all choose a different house. One may go for the biggest - but near a railway line, another might choose the smallest - but in a trendy part of the city, another might have something quite average - but near a good school, while another one might buy a lovely house with land out in the country - but very few amenities. The last one might not be able to decide at all, bank the money and wait for the housing market to improve!

Good luck with your choice and making sense of all the different views on these particular issues. ;)

Cheers

Tia

[stellachiara]

Hi Tia --

You need to decide, which are your 'make or break' downsides, then decide whether NZ offers enough positives to compensate for this.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm doing by asking these questions :) My intention is to find out what the problems are, and then decide if I think I can live with those problems. Not sure how I gave the impression that I'm looking for assurances of ever-increasing upsides... :confused: The main downsides of where I live are expensive housing and over-crowdedness. It looks like NZ will not solve the expensive part (since housing looks to be about equivalent to here, but almost everything else one needs to live is more expensive), but it definitely answers the crowded part :)

-- Chiara

[Hagabel]

Downside of USA:
gunshots especially in schools, malls etc
fast pace of life
president (do i need to say more)
at war
expensive gas
long work hours, not much vacation time
a lot of pollution
too many people and horrible traffic

Just my 2 cents worth.
:exit

[Moorf]

There's also the huge differences between parts of New Zealand to consider - some have more of one downside than another, if you see what I mean.

Also, coming from different parts of the world we all have a different view on what is expensive housing so some will say yes, it's expensive and others will relate the joys of shopping for property they could never afford "back home". i.e.

For us (came from UK) it's relatively cheap compared to the UK as properties with land can be expensive there, but cheaper here, so for us the property prices aren't a downside.

:)

[mish&al]

Hi Stellachiara,

There are downsides here in Sydney too. High wages=high housing cost=high cost of living. Just want to try something different.

To me the downside would be winter, as I'm not used to the cold there.

What scared me was seeing the crime rates, but then I needed to focus, many things had happened to me in Sydney.

I am happy today, as I had my laptop stolen a few months ago, not password protected, everything hacked, my credit cards and bank accounts fleeced.

My money is back today! lucky I am poor and it wasnt too much..:cheers

Moral of my story-things happen everywhere!

And she'll be right mate, let me tell you, that's normal this side of the world!

[Rusty]

My only 'take' on this is it depends where you get your information from. There are a number of other forums where less happy people gather, info from NZIS is on the positive, ENZ seems to me as more of a community.
I would strongly suggest you visit NZ to see for yourself as any opinion is for that persons experience and viewpoint only.
NZ is cold if you come from Florida or warm if you come from the colder north. Same with anything else, it depends what you are used to.

[JoHnH]

"She'll be right" mentality keeps things from improving or progressing.

Bit unfair, I think. The "she'll be right, no worries, mate" attitude can be taken to reflect a "near enough is good enough" approach, but I think it's more commonly an expression of optimism or reassurance.
"Oh, I'm so worried we might end up in a cold damp house! I'm so concerned! Stress! stress! It won't be exactly like the States!"
"She'll be right, you can find a warm one if you look around a bit. No worries, mate."

And no, it won't be exactly like the States. If it was, why bother to move?

I have lived in Auckland, our largest and supposedly most crime-ridden city, for over 50 years now. Outside of the Museum, I have never seen a handgun, as far as I can recall. Certainly never seen or heard one used.

Not exactly like the States? Bit different, mate? There's other things besides the cost living to take into account.

[vixxann]

I'm not even there yet but just wanted to say one of the big plus factors for me about New Zealand IS the "She'll be right" mentality :)
in the UK now consumerism has gone mad - people seem to think items are disposable, if something gets damaged or goes out of fashion then its just thrown and a replacement bought. I think we need a bit more "she'll be right" attitude. Does it really matter if there's a scratch on your fridge, grime on your garden furniture or the kids have the same lunch boxes as last year???

also applies a bit to the H&S factor - I was telling some teachers at school about kids in barefeet and adventure playgrounds in the yard - they were aghast... what if they stood on something sharp or fell off the climbing frames etc. "well, they'll learn not to do it again" are my thoughts - kids need to be kids and have "some" simple accidents as part of their growing up (basic safety issues obviously to be in force)

it's all good
she'll be right

:nice1

small note on racism - cannot comment on how things are in NZ but here in UK I live very near a place where race riots took place a few years ago (with asians). Things are kept very quiet in the main press but its NOT improving and there's a lot of trouble simmering as we now have a LOT of eastern european immigrants too.
I'm very aware that in NZ we will be the immigrants and I try to keep an open mind on everything but I don't think there will be many places in the world that truly and wholly welcome foreigners or other-race families.

[AndyR]

here are my 2pence

1) Wages are low, cost of living is high.
I am only speculating as I have not moved over yet, however, I am on the same money as if I worked in the NHS in the UK when compared.I use this comparrison as private health care in NZ in my job isnt comission based as it is in the UK, so it more directly compares to a job in the NHS. In regard to high living costs, I adjust to my income and this only really affects my expensive hobbies and not other factors.

2) Houses are drafty and damp, thus heating bills are very high.
As I am moving over by myself I will be sharing a house with others. I quite like this as Ive been a student for a long time and I enjoy the situation. I found a house that has all bills included in the rent etc.

[Mrs Pony]

And now my $0.02 as a fellow American...

You are coming from California and I'm in Florida... To me... living in Cali would be out of the question... too expensive, crowded, dangerous etc... Someone in Tennessee could think the same thing about Florida. but they really want get out of the country and want to be a beach bum now so the make the move! :)

We're hoping to leave the US because its just getting too crazy here. Just watch the news for 10 minutes...makes my stomach turn. The "American Dream" is just not what we want and is too materialistic (for us).

Example: Baby's in clothing that is more expensive than everything in my closet...people with clothing that is a year + old that still has the tags on it... the growing debt people have because they want the latest and greatest

We don't want to work so we can have the biggest house, nicest cars, best clothes. We want to work so we can afford to have a good time with friends and each other. We already know that it's going to be much more expensive there than it is here but its the different pace/way of life that we're wanting, not the rat race that we deal with here.

People here in the US seem to be getting uglier and uglier with every surgery they have...if you get what I mean. People aren't nice anymore, no one cares about anyone else unless they are trying to get something from them.

If the house that we rent out is drafty... I'll bring more socks and blankets! Or just dance like :raebanana to stay warm!

Racism is everywhere (unfortunately) and I sadly I don't think we will be able to get rid of it completely. If we do... something else will come in its place I'm sure.

[Hagabel]

I could not have said it better myself re the previous post by Mrs Pony. Great post from a fellow Amercian!!
We got caught up in the big SUV, big house etc (no, my kids do not wear designer clothes!!!) and are now paying for it. We are looking for a more laid back pace of life and after visiting NZ recently I think I have found what we are looking for. It will not be perfect and there will be negatives and positives but it will not be like the States. (thank goodness)
It would be boring if we were all the same.
:exit

[broadsword08]

what an interesting thread!

the grass is never greener, just a different shade of green... or its always brown - if your cup was half empty in the first place ;o)

we live in the rural south... we bought a cold, damp house and are making real progress turning it into a tidy, warm, dry house... we have a little land and we have no debt... we wouldnt have got close to this back in the UK

I do a job I love and earn about the same doing it as I would in the UK... here we get by, back there we would struggle as we would have rent or a mortgage on top... I have prospects to grow my earnings as i progress whilst stilll loving what I do

cost of housing and living is all relative as several have said... who you are and how you live as well as where you are

quality of housing again is down to you... it never ceases to amaze us how many kiwis can live (in terms of state of the house and cold etc) they just dont worry about it... they get on with living rather than worrying themselves to death about it!

this is all linked to the 'shell be right' mentality I guess... particularly down here were we are only a generation or 3 away from the pioneers who cleared the land and began farming here as we know it.... that pioneering attitude, sprirt (and house building quality!) is still found all around... and it has to be as there is no mollycoddling, no availability of everything you want just around the corner and noone telling what you should be doing/look like/be buying/be saying...

its a totally differnt life for us than we had in the UK and we love it... its not all brilliant... the hardest is distance to family and cost of making that journey... but we are happier, healthier and spend more time int he company of nice people now as opposed to spending time actively trying to get away from people!!!

there you go some more thoughts for the mix :o)

oh lastly... green NZ is, clean it certainly isnt... be where is?
and racism... dont see much of it down here

[mylesdw]

1) Wages are low, cost of living is high.
I think that is fair comment; I earn today in NZ pretty much what I was earning in the UK in the early 1990s BUT our lifestyle is many times better.

2) Houses are drafty and damp, thus heating bills are very high.
Really depends upon the age of the house. Most places built since 1990 should be pretty good in my experience although double glazing is still a rarity which is annoying.

3) There is a lot of racism, particularly against Asians.
I don't think it is better or worse than anywhere else. Mostly people get confused between racism and racial stereotyping, they're not the same. You need to realise that people's vocabulary may differ, so that a term you find racist in California may be in normal use as slang elsewhere although I must admit I haven't heard the term darkie since the 1960s British sit-coms!

4) "She'll be right" mentality keeps things from improving or progressing.
I think most people see that mentality as positive, not stressing about that which does not need it. Things are kept from moving and progressing by the stunningly poor quality of leadership that our government displays; there's really not a good one to choose between them.

[victoria]

This is a "heart on your sleave" nation. Generally where people say it like it is. Love it!
Oh & they swear as a norm so if you're of a sensitive disposition .....
Long may it continue & the PC stay away. Oh it's good to be free.

[willsken]

I'm not even there yet but just wanted to say one of the big plus factors for me about New Zealand IS the "She'll be right" mentality


.................................................. .................................................. ....

its a totally differnt life for us than we had in the UK and we love it... its not all brilliant... the hardest is distance to family and cost of making that journey... but we are happier, healthier and spend more time int he company of nice people now as opposed to spending time actively trying to get away from people!!!



:clap:clap :clap

[sweetpea]

I'd agree with #2, 3 and 4. Don't have experience with wages here, as a student (even as a second career one), most of the jobs that fit my schedule pay minimum wage. My future profession pays twice as much in the States.

I'm really not a super ambitious or uptight person, and, before I moved here, I thought I'd find the "She'll be right" attitude refreshing and relaxing. Instead, it drives me a little bonkers. Quality standards are low; sometimes this is minor and can be a little amusing. When it comes to things like hospital care, though, it is alarming. After seeing the standard of care when a friend was hospitalized here, I just pray I don't get seriously ill or injured before I return home. Really, things here can make you wonder whether you're living in the third world sometimes.

Going from living in Davis to living here, you will find the racism here appalling. (I lived in the Bay Area for 8 years before I came here.) Yes, there are some places in the US that are probably just as racist, but Northern California is not one of them, and the things blithely said here about Maoris especially, also Asians, make my skin crawl. I've also fallen prey, more than once, to people wanting to "educate" me as the newcomer on just why Maoris are inferior. These people always seem to be able to talk at great length and with great passion, especially when they've cornered you. The racism and xenophobia can make it hard to make Kiwi friends, because someone who is otherwise charming and fun can have the most retrograde attitudes about things (and not be open to seeing things differently), and what do you do? Scrap the friendship and stick to socializing with other expats? It's not exactly what I moved to another country to do.

Also, the attitude towards the environment is, in many ways, much more progressive in the Bay Area. The only reason NZ is "clean and green" is because it rains a lot, winds blow pollution out to sea, and, most importantly, the country has a very low population density. I met a German expat who said that if the Kiwis had lived in densely-populated Europe, they would have killed themselves off a long time ago.

Housing - there are insulated houses around with decent heating, although it is not the norm, especially among rentals. If you come over with savings and a good job, you may be able to avoid the cold housing - just make sure you verify that the house has everything in the way of heat and insulation you'd expect from a house in the US - a lot of things Americans take for granted are not standard here - and get a house with Northern exposure. It's a bummer to be constantly cold. It's the dampness that really gets to you. And developing allergies to mold really bites.

I've lived here 2.5 years now, and most days, I'm over NZ. There are of course good things about the country, but I think you can find most of the same good things in the US.

This is probably the harshest post I've written on NZ. Frankly, I would not at this point encourage anyone from the US West Coast to move to NZ.

NZ markets their country with great skill, but the marketing image is a false one. The government is far more progressive than the average person, and the New Zealanders you meet overseas are often not representative of the (understandably more parochial) Kiwis who have lived in NZ all their lives.

[sbinder]

Ask a thought-provoking question and you'll get many, many answers!

1) Wages are low, cost of living is high
Yes, in my experience, this is true. John (skibumwa) has told me he makes more in IT here than he did in Seattle, but I have taken a pretty decent pay cut as a civil engineer and we both work in fields that are experiencing labour shortages. Additionally, I think common goods (groceries excepted) will be more expensive because you aren't dealing with the economy of scale of the States - the cost of importing goods cannot be spread over 350 million consumers. However, as I will someday (far off?) go back to the US, assuming it's still there, I am viewing this as a long-term vacation, and they do cost a little!

Houses are drafty and damp, thus heating bills are very high
Compared with the vast majority of the housing stock in the States, it seems houses here are much draftier and damp. Check out this article from The Press earlier this year - http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4562288a6009.html - for the ill effects. I live in a flat that cannot be more than 2-3 years old, and it is warmer and less drafty, but still a far cry from my 90-year-old house in Denver. Plus, Christchurch was strangely built on an old swamp so just about everything gets condensation here. Now, as far as (monetary) costs go, I have not been here long enough to get a complete picture, but I do not think this winter will be nearly as pricey as winters in Denver were.

3) There is a lot of racism, particularly against Asians
Consider first that I am white in Christchurch (very white). Given that, I haven't really seen or heard anything shocking, and think there is a bit of a misconception on the North Island as to the state of affairs here - it is perhaps better than anything I experienced in Seattle or Denver.

4) "She'll be right" mentality keeps things from improving or progressing
I have mixed thoughts on this as a civil engineer - this mentality allows for projects to be finished faster and for far less than in the States. At the same time, I am a little frustrated at work with the resistance to try out technology that is new to NZ but now commonplace in the States. Another example, echoing sweetpea, is in the quality of communication I see; very few people take any time to check their letters, emails, reports, memos, or even something significant like evidence at a resource hearing, for something simple like spelling - it doesn't really seem to matter.

Now, strictly for discussion's sake, I am going to add one more, based on my limited observation:
5) There is a bit more "mid-level" violence
I am comparing Chch to US cities of similar size that I have at least a passing familiarity - Albuquerque, Colorado Springs, and Harrisburg PA. By mid-level violence, I am talking about the boy racers, the broken glass everywhere, the fights and occasional random beatings of tourists. I have never felt uncomfortable at any time, day or night, walking around the aforementioned cities as long as I stayed out of particular areas. The randomness of the mid-level violence here, though, is that it could be anywhere - there isn't a "bad" part of town. And for better or worse, my perception of the police presence is that it is extremely limited. For the first time in my life, I actually am watching my step when I am out at night. On the flip side, what I would classify as really serious crime is almost nonexistent here.

And before everyone gets too dreamy, I think there is a bit of consumerism here, just not remotely as advanced as in the States, at least in the cities (you could make the same argument back home). Definitely a slower pace, though. And Hagabel, if you would consider expensive gas a downside to living in the States, you might want to get used to riding a bike or reconsider your move - gas just dropped to USD6.00 a gallon yesterday.

[Hagabel]

RE above posts.
I have not lived in NZ, only visited so I cannot comment on a lot of these points.

To SBinder :
I was just pointing out that gas here in the States is getting expensive. I realise that it will be more in NZ and I am not basing my whole decision to move on gas prices!! I am from the UK where it is way more expensive than the US or NZ!

Do not get me wrong I love the States and have enjoyed living here for 16 yrs but I also feel that someone should point out to the original poster that I do not think life in the US is perfect like I do not believe that life in NZ is going to be rosy either.

[BkyMonster]

Interesting post.
I'm not there yet but I think there are certainly downsides anywhere. If the downsides matter to you is what is important.
I live in a smallish town in Oregon, so we are close to rural things and fairly far away from the city. (IMHO Portland OR is the best city I've ever seen in that planning is strict. I detest sprawl, and it has very little in comparison to everywhere else I've been.)
Here is how I view the cons mentioned.
1) Low wages, high cost of living.
I think this is very true. I suspect that it is far easier to live very cheaply in the US. Especially as the US has so many food and farm subsidies. I am very good at living far below my means. By this I mean I make a lot of my own things including clothing, food and so forth. I buy in bulk and make things from scratch. I knit and look forward to spinning my own wool again in the future. I (when I have room) preserve food as well. I don't anticipate with my manner of living that I will have too much trouble managing, but certainly housing is more expensive. As for low wages, yes i agree. What I feel I am getting in return for that is a more relaxed pace of life and the opportunity to live in a more rural area while having a more high tech job. This is something quite a bit out of reach in exchange for the higher salary in the US.

2. Houses drafty and damp
Honestly not bothered by that. IMO there are ways around that for me. Window coverings, wall hangings and draft absorbers (washable to cut down on mold) around the windows and doors. My husband will have a harder time as he likes to be warm. We personally tend (in the USA) to heat only one room well for the winter and just be cold in the rest of the house. this seems to be the ways Kiwis do it as well. At least that is the impression I get with every house having a stove in the living room.

3. Racism
Well, living in a semi-rural area now I see plenty. It isn't really out of malice, just ignorance, though that is no excuse. It's kind of an old fashioned habit. :(
My husband is multi-racial (sort-of) but it isn't often made an issue of as people aren't sure. He could just be really tan. :p I'm not sure how I'll deal with this other than feel sorry for people who express racist feelings.

4. She'll be right and progress.
I have noticed the spelling lassiez faire in trademe ads! Haha. I'm sure this will be an adjustment, though I am kind of looking forward to it in some ways. I personally think a more relaxed attitude is better in the way of "having the good sense to see what I can change, what I can't and the wisdom to tell the difference" kind of way.

All in all I feel like I almost know what to expect. Soon I'll be able to tell if I am right. :)

here are some pros for me.
The 'big' nations don't really care that much about NZ. NZ isn't in danger of having its sheep liberated or anything. :p So politics is a big one.
I seriously disagree with recent policies in the USA and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot I can do other than bury my head in the sand or make enough fuss to be put on a no-fly list.

I think I'll fit in better. What with liking to make things and farm a bit.

Schools, health care and general lifestyle fit what I want better.

A non-surgical approach to maternity care. This is increasingly common in the US.

I want to choose my life, not get buffeted about having circumstance shape my life for me.

[CJ22]

I can't help thinking that all you relativists are missing the point of the OP. He wasn't asking if NZ was any better or worse than where he lived - he was asking about deal-breakers. It doesn't matter if NZ is better or worse at x than where he currently lives if it's 'bad enough'. He's not making comparisons, he's assessing absolutes.

@stellachiara: Both my wife and I were able to secure modest increases over our UK salary in NZ, so you don't have to have your income butchered. Since the COL is about the same as the UK (as far as I can tell), then we expect to be at least as well off as here. I get the feeling that those who suffer the worst salary decreases are those working in the public sector.

[sasvanb]

Since the COL is about the same as the UK (as far as I can tell), then we expect to be at least as well off as here. I get the feeling that those who suffer the worst salary decreases are those working in the public sector.

This is a very interesting thread guys... good to hear all opinions, though I will wait with my own opinion until I've actually been in NZ. However, I did want to share a wee story...

I work in the Careers Service in Scotland, and last week was doing my stint as Duty Adviser when a lady from Wellington came in looking for advice on the job market here on behalf of her husband (engineer). She moved out to Welly in the 70s and they were now both thinking of moving back to Scotland to retire eventually. Now she mentioned she was totally shocked at the high cost of living here as compared with NZ, and I would think she probably knows! I was certainly reassured... but will just have to wait and see.

Ta

Saskia

[babscat]

My Kiwi sister in law also assures me the UK cost of living is much higher than that of NZ, whilst we maintain the opposite.

Surely the crux of the matter is that they are spending their NZ $s in Uk where earnings, on average, are higher, but when we are in NZ we are spending £s.

There's also the illusion that prices appear cheaper expressed in £s rather than $s.

Hope you can follow my meaning!

Barbara

[aberdian]

Only thing I can chime in on is the housing, with the addin that all is fixable :) We're in a 6yo house in sunny Wanaka, and although we're pretty hardy types, the cold does get to you! The house is purportedly insulated - our neighbours built the house and live in an identical one but it gains and loses heat very quickly. Everyother house we've been to see (and believe me, it's been about every one in our price bracket in town) is pretty much the same. Granted, it's the middle of winter here and temperatures are subzero at night, but inside your house shouldn't be :) Like I say tho, all is fixable, just choose not to live in a cold house and build something warmer, which is what we're thinking of doing.

All the other points I have no view on.

Ian

[sweetpea]

I can't help thinking that all you relativists are missing the point of the OP. He wasn't asking if NZ was any better or worse than where he lived - he was asking about deal-breakers. It doesn't matter if NZ is better or worse at x than where he currently lives if it's 'bad enough'. He's not making comparisons, he's assessing absolutes.

Sorry CJ22, I totally disagree. To judge what seems like an absolute, for any given person, you need to know what their baseline standard of comparison is. For instance, I've run into expats from Commonwealth countries that do not see narrow-mindedness or discrimination here, and that is because they hold the same attitudes that many Kiwis do. Also, white people from Australia and the UK seem to be more easily accepted into NZ society than immigrants from other countries. Comparison with where people are coming from is helpful, and will help define what a dealbreaker for any given migrant is.

My personal dealbreakers are:
- Provincialism/lack of diversity/racism/xenophobia/anti-Americanism. Most American voices will never be appreciated in politics or society here (I might as well live a warmer, more comfortable, less hardscrabble, if equally disempowered life in Bush's America.) BTW - in person, I am anything but your stereotypical loud, impatient, ugly American, but that does not seem to matter.
- Getting and now having to live with mold allergies because of the poor standard of housing. I can't smell or taste much of anything anymore. It makes me cranky.
- Being constantly cold.
- Health care (I believe in socialized medicine generally, but not as it is done in NZ. I'd rather be bankrupt and alive in the US than dead from the inept health care here.)

I'm aware this all sounds a little over the top. Have I become a bit of a crank lately? Maybe. :uhoh There are good things about living here, it's just that they don't outweigh the bad, especially on cold, dark, rainy winter days.

[Sam B]

Well, my wages are lower - actually 50% lower in the public sector here, and it is a pain, but I have rental income from the Uk and no mortgage, so it hasn't bothered me too much yet. But it would if I didn't have the UK income, and cost of living is high compared to wages.

Some houses are colder and damper than others, our last rental was abysmal, really unhealthy, but newer houses are better, and hopefully our new one will be as warm as toast. It's a lot warmer and sunnier here than the UK (in Cambridge) so it only matters for 3 months in a year.

It's true, Kiwis are generally more prone to the sort of attitudes I used to watch on 1970s British sitcoms - e.g. 'Mind Your Language' and 'Love thy Neighbour' and it IS disturbing to me when someone who I really like suddenly starts referring to 'bloody lazy Maoris', and you hear similar stuff about Asians on national radio.... it might be the worst thing about living here actually - but I love NZ and it's not a deal breaker. I live in optimistic hope that it will change and evolve as Britain did....

I like the 'she'll be right' attitude and I don't think it makes things bad. The health service is better than Britain as far as I can see, and that was always good enough for me. In general, most British people I meet think it's good, and most Americans think it is third world. But we all have similar life expectancies, so it can't be that bad.

[incredible hulse]

My Kiwi sister in law also assures me the UK cost of living is much higher than that of NZ, whilst we maintain the opposite.


Makes me laugh that one as I sit next to a guy at work who constantly goes on about how expensive the UK is (I don't think he has ever been).
Should have seen his face last week when I found him an exhaust for his Vectra that he'd just had replaced for 720 dollars; for £89+VAT. Then proceeded to find him a job for the same figure in sterling as he earns in NZD. I think he's currently looking for a grandparent with some links into the UK to get himself over there :p

[Alan]

- Health care (I believe in socialized medicine generally, but not as it is done in NZ. I'd rather be bankrupt and alive in the US than dead from the inept health care here.)

I think that is absolutely over the top when you are referring to the U.S health system that bankrupts people who cannot afford to pay the ever increasing health insurance premiums, and an awful lot of people there do die from poverty related issues.

[CJ22]

I'm aware this all sounds a little over the top. Have I become a bit of a crank lately? Maybe. :uhoh There are good things about living here, it's just that they don't outweigh the bad, especially on cold, dark, rainy winter days.

Sounds like you have a serious case of the winter blues *hug

[ourquest]

Because "New Zealand" is the focus for anyone wanting to move here, often we tend to compare our circumstances in our original country with perceived experiences we might have in "New Zealand".

But when it comes to getting everyone's opinions on a country, your NZ might be very different to my NZ. I am all for gaining knowledge, but wisdom is knowing that ultimately your move to a new country will be unique to you and its success will depend on your own attitude.

Those who experience life mostly as a function of where they live are likely to find some unhappiness wherever they go. The best solution is to look at those issues in your environment that are a problem to you and work on not possessing any of those characteristics yourself. Then make the move for the sake of adventure, discovery and growth.

I often wonder how people could make a move of such magnitude a few years ago without the internet, but I now realise that it might actually have been easier without the tremendous amount of online information that prepares us in such a specific way that we easily forget to just "be" in our new country and appreciate all that is around us.

[willsken]

When it comes to things like hospital care, though, it is alarming. After seeing the standard of care when a friend was hospitalized here, I just pray I don't get seriously ill or injured before I return home. Really, things here can make you wonder whether you're living in the third world sometimes.



I really have to say I don't agree with this statement at all. Maybe it's because I compare my experience with the NHS in the UK;). I had a riding accident last year and ended up with a serious break to my leg. I was in hospital over a week and the care I received during the stay and the after care was nothing short of excellent (IMHO). The hospital was very clean, there were plenty of staff around to look after me and even the food was good. The doctors were great and took time to explain everything to me and the surgery I had went without a hitch. All the after appointments I had to attend didn't make me wait around all day either. I have to go back in to have all the pins and plates taken out at some point. If I receive the standard of treatment again the thought doesn't worry me at all. (Oh, I even had home care for a month when I came out and none of this cost me a penny/cent)

I think there will be horror stories to be told about any country about their medical care.

[gonzo]

I would also have to agree that the standard of medical care here in Wellington has been excellent. Whilst the age of the medical facilities leaves something to be desired, a situation which will be corrected shortly the standard of medical care that I have personally received has been second to none. One of the reasons that we have not returned to the UK is that I had an extremely serious vascular condition and that the flight itself would have presented major problems. I have now had two femoral by - passes and the standard of surgery has been very high and the waiting times comparatively short. Perhaps I have been fortunate but I am extremely grateful to the NZ health service and the much maligned Capital and Coast in particular.

[Spooky]

I get the sense this forum doesn't have alot of Asian members, so here're my own thoughts on the subject -

About racism against Asians:
I am Asian and making to the move to a 'Western' country is not as scary a thought as many paint it out to be. I've had friends and relatives tell me I'll be treated as a 'second-class' citizen and that I will have bottles thrown in my face. I get the feeling sometimes that racism is self-perpetuated by our own kind who feel insecure (could be a colonial hangover) because of the Asian mentality of clanship that 'we gotta stick together'. I have travelled to US, UK, Australia and have NEVER felt stereotyped or mistreated even once just because of my colour.

I attribute this largely to how we project ourselves to others. I have seen fellow-Asians huddling together speaking their own language when the general crowd does not understand their language; I have also seen Asians with rude habits like speaking loudly, cutting queues and pushing their way through in acts of paranoia. I am of the belief that if you can be civilised and blend well into whatever community you want to be a part of -it doesn't matter if you're white, black or yellow.

About cost of living:
Since we decided to make plans to migrate to NZ, we've been shocked by how much we were spending unnecessarily. Both OH and I have cut down on our spending so significantly in the past few months that our savings are accumulating faster than you can say 'Save!'. We realised there's not need to upgrade our laptops every year, or get that 3G Apple iPhone, or eat out everyday.

We're living a simpler life without feeling we're any poorer than before - cooking more at home, buying in bulk, borrowing DVD titles from the library and taking long walks instead of hitting the malls. If we can do this, we can certainly live with the high cost of living in NZ and the lower wages.

About insulation:
We're prepared to set aside a couple of thousands to insulate our NZ house when we get it. No house has to be cold if you can help it. Having lived in 30 degrees celcius temperatures for the last 30-plus years, you can bet your bottom dollar on us investing in a good heating system to stay warm and toasty throughout the year.

Hope this Asian perspective is useful! :)

[akp713]

So many interesting reponses already! Well as an American with a different perspective than most I'll throw in my opinion.

1. Low Wages/High Cost of Living

This is definitely true as the median per capita income in NZ is US$30,000 compared to US$46,000 in the US. It is also lower than the UK and Oz by a significant margin. NZ is about tied with Australia for the position of the nation with the highest cost of housing in the world relative to citizens' incomes. Food seems to cost me about 10% more than in Boston but the difference here is that I never eat out due to the high cost. However the minimum wage is much higher than in the US and in my industry, teaching, I'm paid more than I would be to teach in the US, so it does vary somewhat by industry.

2. Drafty/Damp houses

Also quite true, my house is among the worst I'm sure. My house is South facing, surrounded by tall trees that block direct sunlight, has no insulation, no heating system of any kind, and single-glazed winows of course; and yes it also leaks and the basement floods with even a little rain. As I am allergic to dust, mould and wood burning I really sympathise with Sweetpea. We use little plug-in collumn heaters in each of our bedrooms and we have thermal curtains we use to close off all the windows the second the sun goes down but it is damp and chilly all winter nonetheless, I have 2 sleeping bags, three duvets and an electric blacket to sleep in, as well as wearing thermal underwear and a hooded sweatshirt to sleep in! I know quite a few other renters with similar experiences.

3. Racism towards Asians/Xenophobia

Spooky mentioned not experiencing racism in most western countries. I think however that NZ is quite different for a couple reasons. Due to the very small population of NZ and it's high immigration rate any new immigrants will stand out here more than in a larger counrty like the US or even Oz. Around 1 in 4 people in NZ today are immigrants, a much higher proportion than in the UK or the US. Kiwis are desperately afraid of being overwhelmed, losing their culture to the Asian migrants the way overwhelming numbers of Europeans replaced Maori culture 150 years ago. I think the treatment of Asians in NZ is very similar to the treatment of Mexicans in parts of the US where their numbers are largest. The racism is real, widespread and I feel it does go way beyond stereotyping.

The racism towards Maoris seems to be more a form of resentment. Pakehas are upset over the preference given to Maoris today as a result of the government recognition of the Treaty and Maori's place as the native culture. It feels very similar to many White Americans' resentment of affirmative action and attitudes toward Blacks. But Pakehas seem much more willing to voice their racist sentiments than Americans would today.

3. She'll Be Right Attitude

This is actually my favourite aspect of NZ society and I don't thing it is a negative at all. It definitely goes hand in hand with "no worries mate" and it really is the Kiwi way. I've always had this kind of attitude towards life and it could get me in trouble in the US. I feel the NZ workplace is a much better fit for me, far more laid-back. I think people are actually much more productive when they have a relaxed work-place.

I have been making a lot of posts critical of NZ life lately. Don't get me wrong, I still love living in NZ, it's just that the days of rainy weather sitting in my ice-box of a flat and watching the All Blacks lose to Aussie last night have got me down a bit. That and everyone around me is sick with winter colds.

Oh and on that note, my two experiences with the NZ health system have both been really positive. I think I got much better care than I would have in the US even with insurance. So score another point for NZ.

[mish&al]

watching the All Blacks lose to Aussie last night

:raebanana:raebanana:raebanana

Sorry, I just had to add that...:exit

Can you imagine my house-an all black supporter and aussie supporter?!

Mish

[sweetpea]

I'm happy to hear that people have had good experiences with NZ hospitals. It probably depends on the individual hospital, and I would think you might have better luck at hospitals in larger cities, where doctors and nurses are exposed to a larger, more diverse caseload, and where perhaps protocols are more progressive (I would hope).

After learning about a friend's stay in the local hospital, I have no confidence that I would receive care I would be comfortable with. It seemed like mistakes were slow to be acknowledged and even slower to be corrected, and no one really ever knew what was going on about the case, or was responsible. There was more, much more, but it's not really my story to tell.

I also know of a few people who have been jerked around for months waiting for surgery for painful, debilitating conditions. Lots of doctor visits, lots of being told "yes, your surgery will be soon" and then put off.

[JandL]

I get the sense this forum doesn't have alot of Asian members, so here're my own thoughts on the subject -

I'm playing devils advocate here :). Your written english is fantasic (better than mine most likely!), were I to assume your spoken is as well, do you think this helps you more than others to fit in?

[Spooky]

I'm playing devils advocate here :). Your written english is fantasic (better than mine most likely!), were I to assume your spoken is as well, do you think this helps you more than others to fit in?

Well, English is my first language and my country's medium of instruction :). I don't think it's just a matter of how comfortable one is with the language but how we manifest our attitudes in the way we behave.

I have an interesting anecdote to shore - my colleague (also Asian and fluent in English) and I went to the US recently for a conference and she complained to me that she felt ostracised because she was Asian. I could see why - she did not mingle, hardly spoke to anyone and folded her arms throughout the conference. On the other hand, I felt comfortable and did not once feel people were avoiding me (in fact I thought for a moment this American professor was trying to pick me up - perhaps for all the wrong reasons? Heehee).

Having said that, I could be drowning in my own oblivion and am bluffing myself in the midst of all the racism surrounding me. :cheers:cool:

[JandL]

I agree with that point. People often mistrust what they don't know, if you can break that then most of the job is done.

The language barrier can lead to a lot of confusion and aggravation for those with little patience :). We did a world tour in 2005 and many people were getting tetchy about my ability to be understood... and they were mostly americans :). Me and my wife were talking on a bus in Miami and some chap said to my wife "what language are you speaking?", she replies "english". He then says "No one here speaks english" which she then replied "Well, I speak english, because I am english". "O..." he replied :).