[Familyofmonkeys]

Does anyone else out there have SMALL children who suffer with insomnia?

It's not far off 2am and my two oldest children (5 and 3) are STILL AWAKE :wah The oldest slept for about 2 hours, woke up and can't get back to sleep....the youger one went to bed at 7pm and is still awake nearly 7 hours later despite being up since 6.30am yesterday :uhoh They haven't eaten anything out of the ordinary, no coloured drinks full of E numbers, we haven't done anything particularly exciting and it's not a noisy night. I've given up trying to sleep and we're sat drinking hot chocolate :)

[Carey]

Poor you and them; gosh, sorry wish I could help with some clever solution......one of mine often lies awake a long time, gets pretty distressed but never awake that late. Will they sleep in next day? Hope so for your sake. I guess just trying not to stress about it, not easy I'm sure. Sending you sleepy sheep....

[Familyofmonkeys]

Will they sleep in next day? Hope so for your sake.

They don't usually sleep in very long...on a good day maybe 8am. But....youngest wakes up around 6.30am, and we have all to be up, breakfasted and out the front door about 8.30am to drop OH (who is fast asleep) off at an all-day aikido conference as we only have the one car at present :wah

[thewoodies]

Sorry to hear your having a tough time - my 2 girls were excellent sleepers - but my baby boy:wah - only slept through twice in a year!!!

I dont know what the answer is ? Each child is different.

My husband and I take in turns with the baby - OH has alot more turns than me , but thats only fair i gave birth and breastfed and he couldnt help then!!!

We both didnt get much sleep last night and it didnt help the babies nappy leaked in our bed!!! Must say i am grumpy today but trying not to be.:(


My sympathies , I suppose you have tried black out curtains ,a long bath in lavender oil/baby bath , hot milk , blackmail, etc :roll

[wwwdot]

I came across this website when looking for remedies to help my husband with insomnia:
http://www.whatreallyworks.co.uk/start/kidszone.asp?article_ID=165
I like it as they recommend all natural remedies:yes

I haven't had the best of luck hiding vitamins in my husband's dinner or making him drink milk, but I hope you have better luck with your children:)

Good luck! Also let us know if you find one that works.

[nippa&pippa]

Iona!, we also had problem with our baby last night!!! aaarrrggghhhh.

I don't know what is his problem but start off with ear infection few days ago and had good nights and bad nights since....

[Carol]

Find a good herbalist and get some "Valerian"

It's not a long term thing - just until their sleep pattern returns to "normal"

Although to be honest - my difficult sleeper is still the same now - and he is now 16!

[Tia Maria]

FOM - is this just recent? It could be the heavy rains and winds are enough to wake them, then they are finding it hard to settle back down.

Assuming your 5 & 3 year old are not napping through the day, just keep putting them to bed, with their normal routine, at 7pm, eventually they will learn how to fall asleep. It is normally the ability to fall asleep themselves, rather than tiredness that is the issue.

If they are not distressed or disturbing others then you will just have to leave them to it. You may be able to help by making their bed as inviting, but at the same time, boring, as possible.

For the 5 year old you could give them a clock, with a little light, explain that unless its 7am its not time to get up for the day, (toilet trips are acceptable). Having the ability to see for themselves when its the correct time to get up, sometimes help, especially when its still dark in the mornings and its not obviously the time to get up. My son sleeps with his, just a little digital thing that sticks to his bed, (he's in the top bunk).

Whatever you do, don't stay up with them, thats just way to much fun for them. Just put them back to bed, saying 'its night time, time to sleep' and nothing else if possible. If you are in bed, you can let them run around a bit until they realise its dark and nothing much happens at night.

I always tell mine about all the people they like being asleep, as a kind of nighttime routine, especially any big boys they look up to, 'David's asleep, Ben's asleep, Superman's asleep, 'their name' is asleep.

Eventually they will find their thing to think about, or focus on, or fiddle with, which helps them get to sleep.

Hope some of this helps....

Cheers

Tia

[Familyofmonkeys]

FOM - is this just recent? It could be the heavy rains and winds are enough to wake them, then they are finding it hard to settle back down.

Assuming your 5 & 3 year old are not napping through the day, just keep putting them to bed, with their normal routine, at 7pm, eventually they will learn how to fall asleep. It is normally the ability to fall asleep themselves, rather than tiredness that is the issue.



It's not a recent thing......every so often they just get bouts of insomnia (not usually at the same time though), which both OH and I suffer from occasionally. They have never needed much sleep and dropped daytime naps very young, but on the whole they are pretty good at bedtime even when they aren't asleep straight away. But....they will only lie in bed a few hours and then they get so bored they won't stay in bed any longer. Daughter is a very heavy sleeper once she is asleep....you can prod and poke her and she never wakes up. Son has recently started sleeping through most nights too. But, can't let them wander around in middle of night or they end up waking up the youngest (who isn't sleeping through yet).

They were both still up before 8am, and seem to worse for 4 hours sleep....whereas i'm knackered :roll

Will have to have a look at some of those natural remedies :)

[Tia Maria]

If they can wake the youngest, (are they in the same room?), when they get up, what do you?

Cheers

Tia

[NikT]

Is shooting em' still illegal???:p

Sorry. I'll get my coat!:exit

Nick.

[Debbie]

You have my sympathy, not that it will help you get your kids to sleep!!
My darling son has always been a bad sleeper. Never slept more that 4hrs at a time until he was nearly 18mths. Herbal stuff can help, I saw something called tart cherry juice at the food show that's meant to kick start your melatonin and make you sleep but it was really expensive. In times of desperation and hyper tired children a dose of anti-hysitimine has been known to work. We have have a rule that the kids go to bed at the same time and stay in bed until a set time. (My son breaks the rule but I don't get up and put him back I send him on his own). It is quite upsetting to know that he can be laid in his bed wide awake for several hours at a time but if he is sat up or wondering around he would never sleep. When he does sleep he snores and is now getting his adernoids and tonsils removed (spelt wrong but you get the idea). Apparently adernoids can cause sleep problems with kids. If they are prone to ENT illnesses might be worth checking out.

Hope you get some sleep soon Debbie

[Familyofmonkeys]

If they can wake the youngest, (are they in the same room?), when they get up, what do you?



They're not in the same room, but they do eventually start to shout out and generally gabble away to themselves at full volume.....which eventually wakes up the youngest. We've tried ignoring it so they get no attention from it, but it doesn't work and middle child in particular can keep it up for several hours....there have been some nights where he doesn't get to sleep until 5.30am. Tried just tucking them back into bed too.....but after an hour so so they get bored again. In the end it just seemed easier to use the same approach you would use as an adult with insomnia......get up and do something different for a while before going back to bed.

If they are prone to ENT illnesses might be worth checking out.


Someone else mentioned this to me recently too. Luckily the children are very rarely ill....they've never had any ear infections at all and usually shake off all the coughs and colds very quickly if they catch them at all. That said, there is a nasty stomach bug going round and they all had a minor bout of it......wonder if that is contributing to sleep problems?

[mgbridges]

Oh FOM I really, really feel for you, when I hear stuff like this is makes me appreciate that our DS is (and always has been) a pretty good sleeper even if we think differently.

Recently we've had a run of nights of him waking at least once around 2.30am and sometimes as many as four times. He says its for various reasons - nightmares, wind or rain woke him, can't sleep, wants a cuddle, bed has come untucked etc. etc.

Fortunately the last couple of nights have been fine and in hindsight I'm inclined to put the wakeful nights down to him getting over a nasty cold/flu bug that he had. I think it rather disrupted his sleep patterns and its taken a few weeks to get back on track.

Hope your wee ones learn that night time is for sleeping really soon.

Anneliese

[Tia Maria]

I had a friend who put a stairgate on the bedroom door and her children would get out of bed for a bit, but not run around the house - won't stop noisiness though!

In your situation I would tackle the 5 year old first, maybe a star chart for going to bed nicely, staying in bed all night, talking in whispers at night time etc, a combination of things they already do well and things you want them to learn. I would also talk to them about 'being a good big brother/sister and setting a good example for the 3 year old', I use phrases like 'it can be tricky for a 3 year old to stay in bed, but I'm sure you could manage it and show them how its done', or 'as you're older you can have this clock in the bed, that way you'll be able to tell your brother/sister when its time to get up'.

Also any achievement of one, loudly praised in front of the other one, so they can see what they get if they do the same. For the competitive types use terms like 'tonight's challenge is to.....'.

Also ask the 5 year old to come up with some solutions, 'how do you think we can get you and your brother/sister to stay in bed?'. Often if they are involved in solving the problem they are more likely to give it a try.

For the 3 year old, I'd let them do all the bits above they can. But also maybe practice whispering and having 'quiet time', during the day as well as the night. A more obvious reward may be needed, a jar of animal biscuits that sits in view, but out of reach, if they manage to get all their stars for the night they get a little biscuit. Not the most healthy breakfast, but look at it as a transition as they relearn to sleep or be quiet at night.

Hopefully one of the suggestions on the thread will work and you will get some sleep! :)

Cheers

Tia

[nippa&pippa]

Do you think it is good ideas to get your children referral by GP to specialist of sleep clinic at your nearest hospital to find the underlying problems behind it?
Have you asked your GP for advice?

What is Insomnia?

Insomnia is difficulty in initiating and/or maintaining sleep. It is a term that is used often to indicate any and all stages and types of sleep loss. Insomnia is not a disorder, it is a symptom.

There are different kinds of insomnia:

* Sleep Onset Insomnia (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome): A disorder in which the major sleep episode is delayed in relation to the desired clock time that results in symptoms of sleep onset insomnia or difficulty in awakening at the desired time.

* Idiopathic Insomnia: A lifelong inability to obtain adequate sleep that is presumably due to an abnormality of the neurological control of the sleep-wake system. The insomnia is long-standing, commonly beginning in early childhood, sometimes since birth.

* Psychophysiological Insomnia: A disorder of somatized tension (conversion of anxiety into physical symptoms) and learned sleep-preventing association that results in a complaint of insomnia and associated decreased functioning during wakefulness.

* Childhood Insomnia (Limit-Setting Sleep Disorder): Primarily a childhood disorder that is characterized by the inadequate enforcement of bedtimes by a caretaker with resultant stalling or refusal to go to bed at the appropriate time.

Another kind of insomnia that generally affects children is called Sleep-Onset Association Disorder. This disorder occurs when sleep onset is impaired by the absence of a certain object or set of circumstances, such as being held, rocked or nursed; television watching, radio listening, etc. ( Could be true for the Peanuts cartoon character Linus and his blanket?)

* Food Allergy Insomnia: A disorder of initiating and maintaining sleep due to an allergic response to food allergens. It is typically associated with the introduction of a new food or drink, i.e., cow's milk.

* Enviornmental Insomnia (Enviornmental Sleep Disorder): A sleep disturbance due to a disturbing enviornmental factor that causes a complaint of either insomnia or excessive sleepiness. (How about the garbage man or the leaf blower early in the morning!?)

* Transient Insomnia (Adjustment Sleep Disorder): Represents sleep disturbance temporally related to acute stress, conflict or enviornmental change causing emotional agitation.

* Periodic Insomnia (Non 24-Hour Sleep-Wake Syndrome): Consists of a chronic (lasting a long time) steady pattern consisting of 1-2 hour daily delays in sleep onset and wake times in an individual living in society.

* Altitude Insomnia: An acute (short and sharp course, not chronic) insomnia usually accompanied by headaches, loss of appetite, and fatigue, that occurs following ascent to high altitudes. (Unless you are a mountain climber or a mountain goat, this kind of insomnia won't apply)

* Hypnotic-Dependency Insomnia (Hypnotic-Dependent Sleep Disorder): Characterized by insomnia or excessive sleepiness that is associated with tolerance to or withdrawal from hypnotic medications.

* Stimulant-Dependent Sleep Disorder: Charcterized by a reduction of sleepiness or suppression of sleep by central stimulants, and resultant alterations in wakefulness following drug abstinence.

* Alcohol-Dependent Insomnia (Alcohol-Dependent Sleep Disorder): Characterized by the assisted initiation of sleep onset by the sustained ingestion of alcohol that is used for its hypnotic effect.

* Toxin-Induced Sleep Disorder: Characterized by either insomnia or excessive sleepiness produced by poisoning with heavy metals or organic toxins.

How is insomnia treated?

Each case of insomnia is tailored for that particular person's needs. Methods used for treatment include behavioral modification, following good sleep hygiene practices, light therapy, and occasionally medication is prescribed for a short period of time.

Note that one I underline it? I did researched after my baby's poor sleep other night and next morning, his body was showing mild milk reaction ezcema. I found out that there is a strong link between poor sleeper and milk allergy, so maybe that why baby didn't sleep till 1am, then woke at 3am, on/off after that...*yawh*

[Tia Maria]

Wow!

I didn't know there were so many kinds of insomnia - I hope they haven't got the Alcohol related one! :p

They missed of:

Children-Related Insomnia - When an adult is kept awake because one, or more, children continually get up in the night and act like its the middle of the day, then jump in your bed and wriggle around as though they have ants in their pants ...... then wants a drink ....... then wants the toilet ...... then they want their favourite toy......... then they argue its a great time to call their cousin in the UK.......... and finally they curl up into a contented, sleepy, little ball at 5am. :D

Cheers

Tia

[nippa&pippa]

:laugh:laugh

[KerryS]

I get this:

Children-Related Insomnia - When an adult is kept awake because one, or more, children continually get up in the night and act like its the middle of the day, then jump in your bed and wriggle around as though they have ants in their pants ...... then wants a drink ....... then wants the toilet ...... then they want their favourite toy......... then they argue its a great time to call their cousin in the UK.......... and finally they curl up into a contented, sleepy, little ball at 5am.

but from my cat! Although he hasn't tried the argument about calling cousins in the UK yet... although maybe his loud meowing at 3am this morning was trying to get in touch with his cousins over in Kelston?

[Familyofmonkeys]

Will have to have a further look at some of those types of insomia :nice1 Might keep track of what they have eaten beforehand in case i'm missing something :confused:

Thing is the insomnia isn't a regular thing. Most of the time they go to bed and stay in bed with no problem......we've always had a very consistent bedtime routine. None of the kids fall asleep very quickly...but they never have done. During the evening they do tend to remain in their rooms but by the wee hours they are just completely fed up and bored. We used to have safety gates in their bedroom doorways until they were able to climb over them....around 18 months old with the older 2....youngest can't quite manage it yet :)

I have discussed their sleep patterns with GP as well as HV on several occasions. They went through all the usual stuff like E numbers and diet, bedtime routines, unusual events/change/stress, illness etc. They just said to me that some children seem to need a lot less sleep than others and as the insomnia is only occasional and they are not suffering during the day because of it then not to worry. I think the reason i'm asking anyone else about it, is that they just seem very young to get insomnia at all, there is no obvious reason jumping out at me....and while they don't seem to suffer at all the next day, we're knackered.

[nippa&pippa]

Will have to have a further look at some of those types of insomia :nice1 Might keep track of what they have eaten beforehand in case i'm missing something :confused:

Thing is the insomnia isn't a regular thing. Most of the time they go to bed and stay in bed with no problem......we've always had a very consistent bedtime routine.

People have been asking me how they know what foods can caused the problem. Best thing you can do is keep food diary, write everything they eat per day as well as how much (intolerance caused by too much food like milk per day) keep doing it till you start to notice the pattern, might take weeks. It doesn't need to be what they ate few hours earlier. It is known that food reaction can delay up to a week before you get symptoms, so hence food diary came handy to rule out what.
This food diary helped me finding my DD's soya & milk intolerance as baby, now outgrown as well as finding milk allergy with my youngest baby before he was weaning.

[Familyofmonkeys]

It is known that food reaction can delay up to a week before you get symptoms

They all had omlette at the weekend with OH.....which I don't eat as I have egg intolerance and can't eat much eggy stuff. Might be a pattern there :confused:

[nippa&pippa]

They all had omlette at the weekend with OH.....which I don't eat as I have egg intolerance and can't eat much eggy stuff. Might be a pattern there :confused:

Worth keeping track on that too as not unusual to have a parent or parents with food allergies or intolerance got children with allergies/intolerance too, doesn't have to be same type of food although, it is case of keeping food diary.

One things Iona, other mum just emailed me about this remind me, Your children got ezcema? did they flare up at around same times as insomnia (not necessary same day)?

[Familyofmonkeys]

One things Iona, other mum just emailed me about this remind me, Your children got ezcema? did they flare up at around same times as insomnia (not necessary same day)?

:no their skin has been pretty good lately.