[dharder]

I've been meaning to post this recently, and the other thread is probably some kind of nudge this way.

A short while ago, someone wrote that if they had kids, the decision between the UK and NZ would be a no-brainer (I'm never entirely sure what that phrase means, but in that context, I took it to mean that it would be a choice for NZ). Ever since then, I've been wondering why.

I guess what I am looking for is the NZ specific improvement. As I said in the other thread, I understand that life for a lot of people has improved (there must have been reasons why the wanted to move in the first place), but are any of those improvements down to the country, or really just because the circumstances have changed?

What kind of improvements would you consider particularly 'Kiwi', as opposed to, say, moving from a town into the countryside within the UK, or moving States in the US?

Daniela

[willsken]

I'll answer this as I think it's slightly different to the thread I started. I think we could have improved our lives in the UK if we had a lot more money. There is a big but though, because there are a lot of things in society as a whole in the UK that I couldn't stand. I think kids are forced to grow up very quickly there and that has nothing to do with where you live.

There is a huge difference in the attitude of the teenagers I teach here, to the kids I taught in the UK. The kids here are happy to talk to you and get to know you. They take an interest in me as a person and go out of their way to say hello and show an interest in my life and that of my family. It says a lot that Matt went to my school in the UK and he wouldn't advertise I was his mother. Here, I teach him and he calls me mum in from of the rest of the class. The kids here are just so much more tolerant. There are a couple of youngsters I teach here and when I look at them, I think how they wouldn't survive a day in a UK comprehensive school.

I find it hard to put my finger on exactly what it is. It’s that you can just be what ever you are here without having to hide or apologise.

So when I really think about it, NZ offers something to my kids I don't believe they'd get anywhere in the UK.

[Sam B]

Yeah, I agree with Willsken, children seem to be different here - less worldly maybe - this is specific to Cambridge - it may be very different in Auckland. It seems a bit more ok to be different - like my elder daughter. Very few are really fashion conscious, especially at primary, but also at the middle school. teenagers seem very different on the whole, more friendly and happy to talk to you.

Kindergartens here are very different to anything I experienced in the UK. I work with pre-schoolers and spend a lot of time in a wide range of different pre-school environments. I have never experienced anything like a NZ kindy in Britain - the range of equipment and facilities, the emphasis on independence and peer interaction. I made a DVD of one in action and sent it home to all the SLTs (speech therapists) in Cornwall and they couldn't believe it - 3 year olds swinging on monkey bars, using adult sized hammers and nails, hot glue guns, goats running around. Brilliant.

[dharder]

It seems a bit more ok to be different - like my elder daughter. Very few are really fashion conscious, especially at primary, but also at the middle school. teenagers seem very different on the whole, more friendly and happy to talk to you.

I'm probably just living in the wrong place in NZ then :) And I have actually been told that it is a rather sleepy suburb, and I am aware that it represents a certain type/class of people, not all of NZ.

My experiences looking around the school are not like that at all. The all seem somewhat similar to me, the sports they do, the interests they have, their outlook on the world, their value systems, in as far as they have them at this stage (and from what I can glean from my OH's writing exercises teaching at the boys school).

Ah well. I just have to hope they'll all be mad about sports...

Daniela

[Sam B]

Well - maybe you'll have to try a year in Cambridge or similar before you head back ....?

[willsken]

Or Waipuk! :D

[wiki]

I was the one who said we'd raise kids in NZ, despite choosing to live our kidless life in the UK.

I can't comment on education in other countries, because I've only lived in NZ and UK - it maybe that another country offers the rounded education I feel NZ gave me... but without going there and researching education properly, I can only vote between NZ and the UK.

For us, my comment came as a comparision of our own upbringings and educations.

On paper OH is the winner: a Phd in ancient history, published author and one of the most intelligent people I know.

Me, I had two years of polytech and my brain is a sponge only for popular culture tit-bits that are handy at morning tea gossip sessions about Brangelina or pub quizzes.

But reflecting on our experiences of schooling - OH at a selective grammar in Birmingham and me at a 170-pupil high school on the edge of Fiordland national park - we're both certain I had the better educational experience.

I was pushed academically, but my growth as a person was always more important to my teachers than how my marks reflected on the school. OH constantly felt like another competitve mark on the league tables. Any achievements were for her parents and teachers, not for herself. There was constant pressure for OH - and for me constant support both inside and outside school.

We got yearly ski trips, tramping and our own 400m running track, whereas they had to get the coach up to the boys' school and the only school trip was an A-level study trip for three classics students to Hadrians Wall.

Having a smaller school certainly helped me (although we were in the same-sized primary school). Our parents are also hugely different - although socio-economically very similar. Those differences have had a big impact on our development, but again, I would credit those differences to the countries our parents live in.

For me, choosing to raise children in NZ is something I cannot put down purely on curriculum. Possibly the UK is more academically driven, but I don't like the way the education system achieves what it does in the UK. Academic achievement should never come about from a sacrifice in personal development.

I think NZ is a safer, more supportive and nuturing country to raise children. The pressures in the UK are constant - whereas children in NZ have the option to take things at their own pace. If I were to have kids I'd want them - with my love and support - to find their own place; their own happiness: whether that meant university, polytechnic, dairy farming or cray fishing...

The only thing I'd encourage my kids to do that wasn't really an option for me at school in NZ is to learn a foreign language or two. That was the only thing I felt was a hole in my education when I arrived in the UK.

We'd never live in Auckland, and Southland is mercifully uncluttered, but we feel the UK is too crowded to raise children healthily.

We also feel that teachers in the UK are too overworked and that reflects badly on their classes (OH's mum was a primary school teacher for 30 years so we know what she had to put up with - marking and lesson planning til midnight and always battling against a shortage of resources) Whereas teachers I know in NZ have time to play sports, be part of volunteer fire brigades and ambulance services and we saw a play in Gore the other night where half the cast were teachers. They've got time to have a life, and their students see that and know it's possible.

I feel I've just focused on schooling here - but the other pluses for NZ will be mentioned by others: the beaches, the bush, the back yards, the bare feet...

I didn't get to go to the British Museum, National Gallery, Rome or Athens as a child - but that didn't stop me learning and loving them as an adult and I don't think the 20-year delay did me all that much harm.

I guess it comes down to what you personally think is best for a child: for me, that's happiness.

[James 1077]

For us it was reasonably simple - in the UK we wouldn't be able to afford to live in a house in a decent area without Eleanor going back to work; over here we can.

On top of that there was no way that we would have allowed our kids anywhere near a state school in the UK (Eleanor is a science teacher and has taught in both state and private) but over here the kids seem better behaved, the schools look better and the schooling system doesn't seem to be about testing, testing and testing but more like the UK private school system where they encourage the kids to have interests and focus on being good at those - regardless of whether they are academic interests.

The rest of what the kids will get out here (outdoors lifestyle, safety, quieter streets etc) they could probably get in the UK countryside but that would mean that I would never see them as I would be commuting for hours each day and also Eleanor is a London girl who could never live in the countryside (in her own words it isn't that she pops into the city all that often - but it is reassuring to know that it is there!).

[wilson182]

What kind of improvements would you consider particularly 'Kiwi', as opposed to, say, moving from a town into the countryside within the UK, or moving States in the US?

Daniela

Initially our biggest improvement in raising our daughter here is exactly that. Here we have the opportunity to raise her in a small township as opposed to a large city in the UK. We did not have the funds for that lifestyle in the UK. My mum has highlighted other benifits though. She came here in March and compared the childhood/children here to that of my neices in the UK, and that of schoolchildren she encounters over there. It really echos what Wilsken and Sam B have said, they are less worldwise, there is less peer pressure to conform - they have the opportunity to be children longer. I have no problems with the education system here either - I experienced it for a while in the UK and they seem comparable to me. My dd was put forward a year to match her skill level and is constantly challenged that level.

[Carol]

To put this in context.... when we all went back home for a holiday at Christmas time in 2005, my younger brother told me not to let my boys wander around on their own through the towns and villages (as they were used to doing in NZ) as they would be a "prime target" because they had no UK streetwise awareness.
(They certainly have a NZ streetwise awareness..... but it is a different league in the UK)

Another example - a good friend of mine has just been back to the UK with her 4 kids - the oldest is almost 21 and a well built lad.
He went off to find a fish and chip shop one night - and was surrounded (and intimidated) by 3 youths on bikes - hoodies up - and fairly obviusly weapons (knives) in their pockets. He was mortified. Chose to ignore them and walked off as fast as he could. He said he couldnt live there......a nd was pleased to be back in NZ.
(This was not in a city btw but in a small village)



On the flip side......
A huge void here in NZ for us (and is getting worse for me ) is not having the family back up that everyone takes for granted growing up close to relatives.
I miss that every day - and even more so now that they are teenagers.


But weighing them up - we made the better choice I think.

And that's without even starting on education!

[Tia Maria]

1) Like many others have said we have been able to afford a better location, Primrose Hill in London would probably be comparable and way out of our price range

2) The school is so fantastic in many ways:
- the headteacher knowing my sons name and showing a genuine interest in his missing tooth
-that every child gets to speak in assembly once a term
-that the parents & siblings are not only allowed past the school door but actively encouraged to come in and help out
- That the swimming pool and adventure playground are for the community and available in holidays
- thats school trips include skiing, picnics at the top of Mount Victoria, impromptu outings to see some whales that have been spotted
- school projects include sculptures for exhibitions or producing a book.

3) People are forever helping my children's' self esteem. Whether it be the shop owner who comments on their good manners, the passer-by who sees them in kit and says they will be the next All Black, the parent who chats to them with genuine interest in what they have to say, the parent coach who say 'wow you ran really fast' even when it was in the wrong direction! :D

This kind of friendly, generous nature was not something I saw often in the UK, as kids were normally encouraged to 'be quiet, while grown ups talked'.

4) Easy access to things which were only for the few in the UK, or for special occasions - minutes from a beach, sailing, skiing etc

5) An abundance of parks with good play equipment in good condition, toys in shops.

I personally don't mind a bit of streetwise. I also miss the multiculturalism of London, as we live in a particularly homogeneous part of NZ. I think the children will miss out by not being close to the culture, history and general excitement of London & Europe.

But we hope to compensate for this by grand trips abroad every few years, which our school allows as it has so many expats. And I also hope that NZ will become more and more mixed as time goes on.

So, if we won the lottery we could get some of this in the UK by moving to our preferred location but I think there are distinct differences in outlook about children, parenting, community that would be harder to replicate.

Cheers

Tia

[peebles16]

I'm probably guilty of saying we moved for a better life for the kids at some point :o So I'll try and illustrate why. Have to say from the outset that we weren't unhappy as such with our life back in Scotland and didn't really experience some of the issues raised around living in UK cities etc. Also I think it's very much down to individual children and the expectations or aspirations you have for them.

For us we wanted more time as a family - we both worked pretty much full-time back in Scotland with OH doing added on call and that limited family time. That work choice was financially driven for us and we don't have the same demands here in NZ although I'm sure that will come.

Now here in NZ because of OH choice of job and me not working (at present) we spend more more time together. And it's real time together eating dinner, playing games, cycling, walking etc not just the get the up and ready for school and bathed and ready for bed that we did in Scotland. A lot of that has to do with the weather too :)

In terms of school and kindy in our case the NZ system does work better for my boys but that down to their individuality and it may be different for others. I've posted before about my concerns about the NZ school system when I first arrived and was told my eldest son was very far behind his peers. I find it hard to be critical of the Scottish system cos I worked in it and understand the pressures education staff are under there but it didn't work for my son. He was coasting along cos he is bright enough but at some point in the future am sure he would have started to struggle. Here in NZ they recognised his intelligence and put resources in to help him get up to speed with the NZ cuuriculum and he is thriving. His personality didn't really fit into the rigid way of teaching in his UK school for example he loves chatting (don't know where he gets it from :D )and making up stories sometimes at the most inappropriate times. That got him labelled disruptive in the UK adn he went through a stage when he was really very unhappy going to school. Whereas here his teachers know and accept him for what he is and encourage him to develop his story telling skills for example, by sharing them every week at news time. Academically he is doing great and ahead at the minute age wise across the curriculum but most importantly he practically runs to school!

My lovely youngest son is 'boisterous' to say the least and a very physical boy and again even though he was in a good nursery in Scotland with less kids and more staff he found it very difficult to 'conform'. In his NZ kindy he is actively encouraged to develop his need to build complicated climbing contraptions and take risks safely in trying them out. He doesn't have to sit and do the same activities that all the other kids do and can make his own choices, within reason.

Finances however, for the future do worry us and giving the kids a good financial future is something we have to work on. That will be more of a challenge for us here and I will have to work which, to be honest, I am looking forward to but it will be on my terms and suit the family needs too - something I couldn't do in the UK.

okay I have waffled but there we go...

Karenx

[SharpBlade]

Hi,
I am from Belgium, have lived in Ireland for 8 years before moving to NZ, so I guess I know a bit about different lifestyles and different countries. If NZ is not the perfect place for me, it definitely is the best place for our kids (we have 5, so it is a huge factor).
I totally agree with everything Tia said.
I find Irish people are also very good at taking real interest in somebody's else life, children, job etc.. Belgian people are more reserved and if I compare to my nieces and nephews' lifes, our kids have a healthier/funnier lifestyle here.
Christchurch gave us what our small Irish town couldn't : accessibility to plenty of recreational facilities and good schools, brilliant parcs, walks, sport clubs etc. The children bike to and from school by themselves, we barely use the car, I even jog with the pushchair to pak 'n sav if I need just a few things only. I had to use the car everyday in Ireland and when I mentioned to a friend that I was going to try to cycle with kids to school (a long way, along the national road, up and down the hills), she looked at me as if I was mad. Here, people don't look twice at you, lots of people seem to be walking/ running, sport is much more part of life.
Obviously, I miss what Chch can't give me (but my little Irish town could) : a sense of strong community. But things are changing, I know all my neighbours by name and can rely on them if needed. Our kids spend ages with the neighbourhood kids (I don't see many belgian kids playing outside their house, riding around the block etc..).
The school... well, I love it, but that would be too long to explain.
Laura

[irishliz]

Thought I would add my two pennies worth.

Without a shadow of a doubt our pre-schoolers have a better experience here. It is great that they are being cared for on the whole by well qualified enthusiastic older teachers. In Liverpool the nurseries seemed to be populated by very young adults who seemed more transient.

And our schoolies are getting a great very rounded education in their primary school. In fact they have blossomed. Much better than the sole focus on the 3 R's.

BUT while we are in no doubt that NZ is a better environment (we are in Wellington) we feel we have to consider other aspects of our childrens' lives as well. What I mean is family, access to other countries/cultures and our access to funds to help them long-term with their university education. And that is where we are very unsure about staying here long-term.

To be fair all the activities they do here they had access to in the UK, they cannot go barefoot in school as it is not allowed, and the school needs to know if somebody different is picking them up. And ds broke his arm on the monkey bars and I was surprised how many people think they should be removed - not me I hasten to add.

So not clear but then is the answer ever clear?

[incredible hulse]

Bit of a mixed bag for us.
On the plus side very impressed with the Kindy atmosphere/system.

School seems a bit more laid back (too much so maybe for my liking) but generally happy with the primary/junior school we've chosen. Haven't encountered senior yet and have had very mixed reports of them in Kapiti. I'm all for kids being kids but personally want mine to have a bit of discipline and learn the benefit of hard work. Quite happy for them to be pushed in that context. Also in the case of special needs I am very UNimpressed with NZ.

Schools in our area (Surrey) of the UK were excellent (State btw, would personally never touch a private school) and never had a problem with the youth's attitudes there (from a teaching perspective as well as parent side). Some parts of central London were a different matter but as with all things these have to be taken in context - comparing Southland to Brum to Cannons Creek is just not possible imo. I think the point about achieving what some people do in NZ is very valid for rural UK.

I like the attitude of kids on the street more but there's a fair amount of little chavs in Paraparam, certainly comparable to what the UK can offer, and also had the delight of being threatened with a knifing from some scrotes in Porirua. I find the young ones here have a little more respect here than the general encounters I had in the UK in recent times - maybe that me being swayed by negative media in the UK ?

All in all I can't say NZ is a better place to bring up kids yet. In some respects the open spaces and more laid back pace is nice but I do worry that the kids will be bored when older. The fact that most appear to be desperte to leave NZ appears to back this up. Personally find already that there is less for them to do here on a rainy day than the UK.

[aberdian]

I'm not sure it's any better here than where we were in semi-rural Aberdeenshire. There, the kids could go out and play whenever they wanted, here they can do so too, it's a quiet street with no traffic.

The kids seem a lot....wilder here than UK, the schoolyard is more anarchic and there seems to be a big push for self reliance at the loss of a sense of helping each other out, very much a me me me culture - the phrase I hear a lot is "Yeah, who cares?". Speaking of which, there's less emotional awareness among the kids, which we've both noticed seems to carry over into adulthood - I'm used to being able to chat to men and women equally, here, women won't look me in the eye! What do they think, their husbands wouldn't be happy or I'm going to hit on them? Nope, just idle chitchat waiting for kids to come out. A head scratcher for me.

Some people have commented on a less materialistic attitude but again, I don't really see that. The kids have less toys but way more in the way of bikes, skis, quads etc. The 3 kids whose houses my boy has been to since we got here have more toys than you can shake a stick at - one kid has 3 bikes, a quad/buggy thing, skis and snowboards. At 8.
Maybe it's just the bizarre place that Wanaka is -many people (non native) have commented on it

[dilanium]

I'm used to being able to chat to men and women equally, here, women won't look me in the eye! What do they think, their husbands wouldn't be happy or I'm going to hit on them? Nope, just idle chitchat waiting for kids to come out. A head scratcher for me.


I'll just say that if you ever meet me I have difficulty looking people in the eyes- it has to do with being shy for me and nothing more. So maybe you've moved into a strange shy-person town??

Okay- but enough of a distraction

[aberdian]

So maybe you've moved into a strange shy-person town??

The thought has crossed our minds, it is a weird place :)