[K&CS]

Phew, it's been months and months since I was last on here, but here goes...

I'm not American myself but had a long telephone conversation this afternoon with a very good friend in America who is considering returning to NZ and I said I'd see if I can answer a few of her questions for her as she is totally confused.

She and her family came out to NZ from US in December 05 having received their NZ returning residents' visas just before they left the US. They stayed in NZ for exactly a year and returned to the US in December 06 and have been discussing whether or not to come back to NZ ever since. In December 07, their rrv expired but they were given an extension of a year and they have until December this year to decide whether or not to come back.

They have a couple of major concerns. The first one is to do with health insurance. They seem to think they need health insurance to live here and are under the impression that they would not qualify for it until they have been residents here for 5 years. I said that I was sure that was not right - that as NZ residents they would have the same rights as any resident in NZ ie that they would have to pay for GP appointments but any stays in hospital/operations etc which were referred by a GP would be free (of course they could choose to get private medical insurance which they could do as soon as they arrived back in NZ if they wished) . I think they would have the same rights as any other NZers (except that they can't have an NZ passport until they qualify for citizenship). My friend seems to think that it is probably different for us as we are British but I am sure that an American with an rrv visa has just the same rights as a Brit (or any other nationality for that matter) who has an rrv visa.

Also, a couple of their kids' passports have just expired so they have sent off to have them renewed. They were told that once they get their new passports back, the whole family would have to go to the post office in order to have their NZ visas put into their new passports. This does not seem right to me. Does anyone know what you do about replacing your NZ visa when you renew your passport when still in US? I would imagine you send it off to Wellington (or maybe even London)? Hope this makes sense.

And lastly, another major concern of theirs is the economy in the US at the moment which is preventing them from taking the plunge again. How do other Americans feel about this? Do you feel that it is a good time to leave the US or do you think with the knock on effects globally that it is a good time to stay put and wait for things to settle down? Their situation is that they have a house which they don't intend to sell (they live in a pretty good area) but could afford to buy a house here without selling up back home.

Sorry, this is very long and rambling but if anyone can help me, I'd be very grateful!

Thanks in advance

Kate x

[JandM]

I am sure that an American with an rrv visa has just the same rights as a Brit (or any other nationality for that matter) who has an rrv visa.Can't help with the other issues, but on this one, I'm sure that your view is right.

[timeanzbound]

Kate,

I will try to answer your q's the best as I know it.



They have a couple of major concerns. The first one is to do with health insurance. They seem to think they need health insurance to live here and are under the impression that they would not qualify for it until they have been residents here for 5 years. I said that I was sure that was not right - that as NZ residents they would have the same rights as any resident in NZ ie that they would have to pay for GP appointments but any stays in hospital/operations etc which were referred by a GP would be free (of course they could choose to get private medical insurance which they could do as soon as they arrived back in NZ if they wished) . I think they would have the same rights as any other NZers (except that they can't have an NZ passport until they qualify for citizenship). My friend seems to think that it is probably different for us as we are British but I am sure that an American with an rrv visa has just the same rights as a Brit (or any other nationality for that matter) who has an rrv visa.

You are correct, if you hold a PR or hold a work visa for 2yrs, you are treated like a NZ citizen as far as health care....I'm assuming their rrv qualifies for that bc they have resident status.




Also, a couple of their kids' passports have just expired so they have sent off to have them renewed. They were told that once they get their new passports back, the whole family would have to go to the post office in order to have their NZ visas put into their new passports. This does not seem right to me. Does anyone know what you do about replacing your NZ visa when you renew your passport when still in US? I would imagine you send it off to Wellington (or maybe even London)? Hope this makes sense.

I think sending it off to their nearest NZ embassy will get the visas in the passport. They should contact their local NZ embassy (LA or Washington DC) to make sure.


And lastly, another major concern of theirs is the economy in the US at the moment which is preventing them from taking the plunge again. How do other Americans feel about this? Do you feel that it is a good time to leave the US or do you think with the knock on effects globally that it is a good time to stay put and wait for things to settle down? Their situation is that they have a house which they don't intend to sell (they live in a pretty good area) but could afford to buy a house here without selling up back home.



My boyfriend and I are getting out ASAP (mid Oct to be exact). He follows the economy and politics very closely, he is a commodity trader. According to him, US will hit very hard times soon, possibly another depression!:wah Gas prices will sky rocket, prices of food will soar, and housing market will collapse, and the dollar will collapse (we are already experiencing the beginning of this). I know this sounds harsh and seems like worse case senerio, but he foresaw the current high gas prices and the drop of the dollar 2 years ago bc he follows the markets and researches everything about our economy. I hope his is wrong...but I really don't want to be here if he is right! :exit That will be very scary especially when lots of people here own guns.

So to answer your question, I think its a GREAT time to leave! Why wait for things to get worse, it maybe harder to leave then.

Hope that answers your q's and I wish them the best!:yes

[M-Squared]

I was only too pleased to not have to pay massive health insurance premiums anymore. :D :nice1

We have a health insurance policy through work. Got it when I was still on a work permit, so no worries there. Costs are minimal anyway, and the insurance pretty much just covers us for major surgery. Do remember that the ACC pays for all medical bills associated with accidents, so there's no bankrupting yourself in you have an accident. Gotta love that! :D :nice1

[skibumwa]

I thought it was great time to leave back in July 2007 when I came here. However, it's a pretty miserable time I see in the USA. My life now is 800% better than it was in July 2007 and before.

Large smile from "Middle Earth".. Lord of the Rings country..
cheers,

John

Kate,
My boyfriend and I are getting out ASAP (mid Oct to be exact). He follows the economy and politics very closely, he is a commodity trader. According to him, US will hit very hard times soon, possibly another depression!:wah Gas prices will sky rocket, prices of food will soar, and housing market will collapse, and the dollar will collapse (we are already experiencing the beginning of this). I know this sounds harsh and seems like worse case senerio, but he foresaw the current high gas prices and the drop of the dollar 2 years ago bc he follows the markets and researches everything about our economy. I hope his is wrong...but I really don't want to be here if he is right! :exit That will be very scary especially when lots of people here own guns.

So to answer your question, I think its a GREAT time to leave! Why wait for things to get worse, it maybe harder to leave then.

Hope that answers your q's and I wish them the best!:yes

[Mrs Pony]

Large smile from "Middle Earth".. Lord of the Rings country..
cheers,

John

haha...you dork! ;) you and OH would get a long great I think!

Back to topic...

Like the others said... if you have PR you have health insurance and can get the kind you pay for if wanted

I think someone else said the other day that they had to get a new passport but it didn't come with the blues like the old one... you out there?!

The US housing market is crap and isn't getting any better... We're praying we can rent our condo out (probably taking a hit still) because selling isn't an option. OH lived in Wellington for a year but his heart never left, we went on honeymoon and I fell in love so we're going back... The fact that the economy is going to crap doesn't help either...

[cpgrant]

The question of whether or not to leave based on the health of the US economy, no doubt, depends on the situation of the individual. The US economy is certainly not as healthy as it has been, and for some folks, times are hard. But I think it is a wild exaggeration to paint a picture of a collapsed economy.

The reality is that many of the problems facing the US economy are global problems. The rising price of oil and other commodities are not unique to the US and the consequent increased costs of food are a concern to the whole world. If the US economy slides into 'another depression' it will not just be the US, but the world as a whole which slides into depression.

There are many, many reasons to be concerned about the situation in the US, but for many people, the economic situation is hardly at the top of that list.

[mackstann]

The question of whether or not to leave based on the health of the US economy, no doubt, depends on the situation of the individual. The US economy is certainly not as healthy as it has been, and for some folks, times are hard. But I think it is a wild exaggeration to paint a picture of a collapsed economy.

The reality is that many of the problems facing the US economy are global problems. The rising price of oil and other commodities are not unique to the US and the consequent increased costs of food are a concern to the whole world. If the US economy slides into 'another depression' it will not just be the US, but the world as a whole which slides into depression.

There are many, many reasons to be concerned about the situation in the US, but for many people, the economic situation is hardly at the top of that list.

I agree. The economy here isn't that bad for the average person. The main exception I'd say is health care -- it's totally out of control. Being in between jobs can be nerve wracking. I still owe thousands because my appendix went bad when I was a temp and had no insurance. Totally routine thing, I think they even said it's the most common operation, but the financial impacts have nagged me for years. It seems like there has to be a better way... oh wait! There is! The US is just too messed up to fix it.

Also I am of the opinion that the US is headed for very nasty times. This election *might* steer it back on course somewhat, but it's hard to say. In any case, who wants to live in a rapidly growing police state? The US empire seems to have peaked. It's time to head for greener pastures... literally in this case.

[Ashby]

Leave now. As fast as you can. There is probably not too much time left to get out intact.

It is NOT going to get better. For a VERY long time.

I have begun typing what I know and then erased it several times. I hate to engage in debate over the state of the US economy on this forum. I know the drill--I talk to americans in denial every day around me.


So I will sum it up in one sentence:

If you are able to leave the US, do so now.

[M-Squared]

The US deficit is now $407 BILLION. That's not pocket change. And the currency isn't backed up by gold anymore....

[cpgrant]

...I hate to engage in debate over the state of the US economy on this forum. I know the drill--I talk to americans in denial every day around me.


There is plenty to debate when discussing the 'quality of life' in the US. But, it is disingenuous to imply that the US economy is dramatically worse than other economies around the globe. There are many highly valid reasons that one might ponder when considering emigration from the US. However, anyone who thinks that their financial situation is going to be distinctly improved just by the act of leaving is probably in for a unpleasant surprise.

In other words if "Improve my financial situation" is #1 on your list of reasons to emigrate from the US to New Zealand, then you should probably strongly reconsider your decision.

[Ashby]

However, anyone who thinks that their financial situation is going to be distinctly improved just by the act of leaving is probably in for a unpleasant surprise.

In other words if "Improve my financial situation" is #1 on your list of reasons to emigrate from the US to New Zealand, then you should probably strongly reconsider your decision.

This is precisely what I was trying nicely to avoid. But I feel the need now to clarify what I was saying as it was misconstrued.

If the economic/political situation continues to worsen in the US, leaving will become infinitely more difficult and expensive. If not downright prohibited.

Personally, our financial situation is going to completely fall off a cliff. But it is worth losing every last nickel. Money is worthless in the long run anyway. :)

[cpgrant]

...Personally, our financial situation is going to completely fall off a cliff. But it is worth losing every last nickel. Money is worthless in the long run anyway. :)

Exactly.

I don't know that my financial situation will fall off a cliff, but whatever changes do occur will be worth the cost.

[Ashby]

Oops! I don't want to scare any of you who are worried about the financial implications of the move. I am sure most of you will be fine--at approximately the same level--give or take a bit.

In our situation, my husband has a great company that has been in operation for a while. We have loads of clients, work, reputation, etc. etc.

We will have to start over in NZ in more ways than one. My husband supervises his employees here and when we get there, he will have to actually get his hands dirty! He will be bumped back to apprentice level for at least a year or more. And that doesn't pay very well.

So this means a big hit in income for us. I have even considered getting a job! Gasp! (I am a SAHM that homeschools)

Oh well! Easy come, easy go! I comfort myself with the knowledge that it won't last here either. In fact, the slow down has already been VERY noticeable.

We are looking forward to being poor in NZ!:D

[sbinder]

Kate/timeanzbound:

Regarding the question of economics, I might suggest subscribing to the following weekly bulletin for some recreational reading:
http://www.bnz.co.nz/About_Us/1,1184,3-29-319,FF.html
The link was passed around at work, but we are all engineers so take the recommendation for all its worth. The weekly overview is from the Bank of New Zealand's chief economist, Tony Alexander, and while I find it very interesting reading in the down times at work, sometimes I question its accuracy (he often seems to rely on surveys from his readership who come from all paths of life but are not fellow economists). Again, I'll just reiterate that I am not an economist, even an amateur one!

A quote from this week's overseas bulletin:
"Investors have also been thinking about the timing of major economies pulling out of this period of weakness and the general view is that while conditions in the United States are still likely to be very poor in the near future the US economy is likely to be emerging from this horrendous period earlier than other economies."

And I have to admit that I find the steady drumbeat of failing finance companies here more than depressing - after all, there is no FDIC to rescue us now. Neither Labour or National has mentioned anything about propping them up a la Bear Stearns or Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac.

On the other hand, there is an eternal labour shortage here, even in recessional times such as these, so many sectors still need employees, or so I gather. And the BNZ bulletins have been sounding a fairly positive forward-looking note over the last couple weeks, so the people on the ground here seem to think everything will turn around within the year.

What to make of all this? Well, no matter when your friends choose to come over, the exchange rate will never be quite right, and sorting real estate and taxes as a former/current resident of different countries will always be a mess. But I think you would be hard pressed to find to many people on these boards who are in NZ strictly for financial reasons. Tell your friends just to take the plunge - Waiting In America is never remotely as rewarding! :yes

[M-Squared]

Tony's bulletins are really good, I thoroughly enjoy reading both of the overviews every week. Please do remember that what's in the overviews are NOT necessarily the views of BNZ.

[ant7jen]

My wife thought long and hard about moving to NZ and she told me maybe in 2 years when the economy can hopefully fick back up, sell out house when the slump is over and finally move there. It would be too overwelming to us to pack up and move now but I don't know if it will be better or worse in 2 years. I told her if she told me to get in the car so we can go to the airport to live in NZ, I would not hesitate to get on that plane and not look back.

[Ashby]

The US deficit is now $407 BILLION. That's not pocket change. And the currency isn't backed up by gold anymore....

It's actually much worse. It is nearly $10 TRILLION.
According to the president of the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank, when you bring in GAO (Govt Acct Office) figures for unfunded liabilities the figure is closer to $100 TRILLION. Yep, with a "T"
That is roughly $300,000 for every man, woman and child in the US.

From Bloomberg:
Add to that the $5.2 TRILLION in debt from Freddie/Fannie that they are currently trying to work into the federal budget.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=adr.czwVm3ws&refer=exclusive

Yep, no gold either. Just print more money. :wah

[Ashby]

Americans:

NOW is the time to leave.

If you have been on the fence, take a leap of faith.

Conservative estimates on the economy went from "we are almost through it" to "it won't end in our lifetime"

It is a financial tsunami heading our way. And it will take many years to sort out.

Right now, we are all playing a game of musical chairs. The music is about to stop. Make sure you know where your chair is.

[timeanzbound]

Leave now. As fast as you can. There is probably not too much time left to get out intact.

It is NOT going to get better. For a VERY long time.

I have begun typing what I know and then erased it several times. I hate to engage in debate over the state of the US economy on this forum. I know the drill--I talk to americans in denial every day around me.


So I will sum it up in one sentence:

If you are able to leave the US, do so now.

Ashby,

I am right there with you...I have gotten into debates about this in the past. But I think voicing your opinion may help direct certain individuals that may be out of the loop.

Wish you the best...like minded friend,
Timea

[timeanzbound]

The US deficit is now $407 BILLION. That's not pocket change. And the currency isn't backed up by gold anymore....

M-Squared,

I forgot to mention the deficit in my post...you are EXACTLY right!!! How is the US going to crawl out of this hole, especially when we are importing way more than we are exporting?!

[timeanzbound]

There is plenty to debate when discussing the 'quality of life' in the US. But, it is disingenuous to imply that the US economy is dramatically worse than other economies around the globe. There are many highly valid reasons that one might ponder when considering emigration from the US. However, anyone who thinks that their financial situation is going to be distinctly improved just by the act of leaving is probably in for a unpleasant surprise.

In other words if "Improve my financial situation" is #1 on your list of reasons to emigrate from the US to New Zealand, then you should probably strongly reconsider your decision.


I agree with you 100%! However, its probably not too faulty thinking to consider leaving when the middle class and the lower class of the country is being so heavily squeezed. From your posts, it somewhat sounds like you don't do so badly...gives you a lofty perspective to view the economy from, that others might not have.

[sweetpea]

I certainly wouldn't argue that the US economy is currently ailing and is a bit of a house of cards. That said, I'd be wary of jumping out of the pot and into the fire.

By virtue of its size and diversity, I feel like the US is in a better economic position than New Zealand. New Zealand's export market is highly dependent on animal agriculture, and is one Foot & Mouth epidemic away from disaster (have a look at how many animal products make the top exports list on page 22 of http://www.stats.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/DD6731F9-1A8C-4B5B-90D0-3C2AFC5239AB/0/GreyBook_Dec07finaltopublish.pdf). The finance companies debacle is worrying. The investment sector seems a bit of a Wild West as far as regulation goes. The tourism sector is dependent on the strength of other economies, and the willingness of people to disregard the high CO2 emissions inherent in long distance air travel. NZ's economy is currently in a recession, whereas the US economy, despite its woes, is not.

I do think that most people will muddle through somehow, no matter what the larger economy of a country does. It is, however, worth having a sustained and equally probing look at the economy you're about to dive into.

[M-Squared]

Where did I get that $407 billion from? I dunno. Sorry 'bout dat! :exit

[cpgrant]

Where did I get that $407 billion from? I dunno. Sorry 'bout dat! :exit

I think that $407 billion is the current federal government budget deficit whereas the $10 trillion number is the cumulative debt amassed from year after year after year of such deficits.

The numbers are staggering - works out to something like $33,000 for each and every person in the country and that's not counting interest. Yikes.

The scary thing is that it is as bad, and even worse, in other major economies. The best comparison is to correct the debt as a percentage of GDP. For the US it is about 61%... Germany 63%.... Canada 68%.... Belgium 85%.... Italy 104%.... Japan 195% Even New Zealand comes in at about 21%. Seems that the world, as a whole is in debt up to its eyeballs. I'm not an economist but this seems like generally a bad thing....

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt)

[cpgrant]

I agree with you 100%! However, its probably not too faulty thinking to consider leaving when the middle class and the lower class of the country is being so heavily squeezed. From your posts, it somewhat sounds like you don't do so badly...gives you a lofty perspective to view the economy from, that others might not have.

Agreed, I certainly 'don't do so badly' but by all definitions I am still solidly in the American middle class. My perspective certainly isn't 'lofty' compared to many Americans. But, remember, most Americans (and Europeans), even those currently being squeezed, still live like royalty compared to billions of other people in this world.

I lived in Kenya for several years and my outlook has been permanently skewed by that experience. It is very, very hard for me to view the current economic downturn in the US as being all that catastrophic when half the world lives on less than $1 per day - well under what we unthinkingly pay for our cup of coffee at Starbucks (or 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts for that matter).

(Interesting link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2007/12/071227_dollar_a_day_1.shtml)

Again, don't get me wrong - there are so many facets of life in the US which are difficult, disgusting, and disappointing... but we need to remember that there is no financial miracle awaiting us in a different locale.

[Ashby]

The point of including the economy of the US in the discussion is to point out that as the dollar declines and the economy contracts (and prices rise) the ability of most to leave will be greatly diminished.
It is going to cost us approximately $30,000 to transport my family, our stuff and one dog to NZ (including fees for immigration and assessments, etc).
That is a lot of money.
If the dollar collapses and prices rise, that will seem a bargain.

I don't know who said the US is not in a recession but that is actually false. Real numbers show that we are but that is far too much to go into here.

I do not think that NZ will be a magic land of milk and honey with a grand economy. But when the music stops, it will be important to be in place where you want to be for a while.
And the economy is not the only thing that is a little shaky here.

There are multiple reasons, IMHO, to be looking for a new home base if you are american.
I am just saying "HURRY"

[timeanzbound]

Agreed, I certainly 'don't do so badly' but by all definitions I am still solidly in the American middle class. My perspective certainly isn't 'lofty' compared to many Americans. But, remember, most Americans (and Europeans), even those currently being squeezed, still live like royalty compared to billions of other people in this world.

I lived in Kenya for several years and my outlook has been permanently skewed by that experience. It is very, very hard for me to view the current economic downturn in the US as being all that catastrophic when half the world lives on less than $1 per day - well under what we unthinkingly pay for our cup of coffee at Starbucks (or 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts for that matter).

(Interesting link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2007/12/071227_dollar_a_day_1.shtml)

Again, don't get me wrong - there are so many facets of life in the US which are difficult, disgusting, and disappointing... but we need to remember that there is no financial miracle awaiting us in a different locale.

You viewpoint is very appreciated, it gives balance to a lot of the worse case scenarios. I certainly believe that the US is headed for a slight or maybe even more than slight recovery in the short-middle term. Also, depending on the election, it could last even longer.

[JPOnion]

Argh... Ashby and others saying "get out now", I'm in 100% agreement, both for the reasons you mentioned and for others (personal and otherwise). Unfortunately I've got about 7 months left on my work contract, and if I leave before then I've got to pay back my very generous relocation package...I'm really, really hoping things don't get too much worse before then.

**sigh**

ETA: Also, I don't have enough points to even apply for EOI until I get a job offer. Hah!

[K&CS]

Thanks everyone for your useful comments. I've passed them on - certainly food for thought. Things certainly aren't getting any quieter on the financial front - more panic every day at the moment!

[BlueDevil]

KC+S,

Socialized health care is, as mentioned above, available to everyone on a work permit for 2 years or a perm resident. Its not the same as health insurance however. While the Kiwi health system has many advantages over the US, there can be some surprising disadvantages as well. This is a bad place to have heart disease, some cancers or need a joint replacement for instance. Specialized health care and the clinical experience with rare diseases is limited. While this makes sense for New Zealand as a society, it can be distressing on an individual level. The US healthcare system is neither cost effective or efficient (or very oriented toward maintaining health), but it is, in most cases, a very good place to be sick and be treated (compared to other countries). Yes, mileage does vary and there are horrible experiences in the US and fabulous ones in New Zealand, but that's what WHO and Pew Charitable trust data suggests.

cpgrant's point is absolutely true. For some people, life will be better here, for others not. As other threads have pointed out; taxes and the cost of living are much higher here.

On the same token, separating the NZ economy from the US is a bit of a fallacy. Despite its agrarian origins, 1/4-1/3 of the population lives in Auckland and is service driven economy that is tied into the US economy and its Asian trade. Where the US goes, so will New Zealand. And this week New Zealand officially entered a recession.

The New Zealand capital markets are limited (the New Zealand stock exchange essentially mirrors one company, Telecom). Because of government regulation, New Zealand does not provide a strong return on investment compared to many other countries and will feel the credit crunch more severely as the US credit markets dry up. Also, all the banks except Kiwibank (run by the post office) are foreign, mostly Australian, owned.

There are very few people who will be financially better off coming to New Zealand compared to the US, without even accounting for moving costs, moving trauma and disruptions. But few of us also moved here thinking it would make us financially rich. Most Americans I know (in Auckland) are doing reasonably well, but love the country/people/life.

[ant7jen]

If our American government prints that money with no gold to back it up, we will go into another DEpression.

If we did offshore drilling, which I am not crazy about, and envest in energy alternatives, we will get out of this crap were in now.

[canajanz]

Everyone has health insurance here .. no worries

The passports have to go to DC to have the visa transferred. make sure you ask for it to be transferred .. make it clear you are not applying for a RRV

[JandM]

Everyone has health insurance here .. no worriesCould I query what you mean when you say 'health insurance'? As I'm sure my NZ family don't have the sort of insurance that you pay separately for.

[Hagabel]

Americans:

NOW is the time to leave.

If you have been on the fence, take a leap of faith.

Conservative estimates on the economy went from "we are almost through it" to "it won't end in our lifetime"

It is a financial tsunami heading our way. And it will take many years to sort out.

Right now, we are all playing a game of musical chairs. The music is about to stop. Make sure you know where your chair is. [/I]





I will leave tomorrow if you can buy our house and thus clear our outstanding debts!! Or maybe the government is going to do that
for me?? HeeHee.........:laugh
:cheers