[dharder]

A number of times while talking to other parents I have come across this ‘issue’:

There appears to be a common misconception around that it is illegal to leave your children alone (at home, or other places) until they are 14.

That isn’t actually the case, but I never know how to respond when this comes up in a conversation: do I live with the disapproving looks if I say that I have no problem leaving my almost 9 year old for half an hour alone in the house, or do I turn into the foreign smartypants who knows everything better? I remember having one debate with a Kiwi about importing car seats, which ended with me quoting the Landtransport factsheets, but I got the impression it didn't go down very well to be better versed in legal matters than the native.

Anyone else have experience with this, and if so, how do you handle it?

Any tips appreciated,

Daniela

[CityBlue]

......

There appears to be a common misconception around that it is illegal to leave your children alone (at home, or other places) until they are 14.

That isn’t actually the case, but I never know how to respond when this comes up in a conversation: do I live with the disapproving looks if I say that I have no problem leaving my almost 9 year old for half an hour alone in the house, or do I turn into the foreign smartypants who knows everything better? I remember having one debate with a Kiwi about importing car seats, which ended with me quoting the Landtransport factsheets, but I got the impression it didn't go down very well to be better versed in legal matters than the native.

Anyone else have experience with this, and if so, how do you handle it?

Any tips appreciated,

Daniela

IF it is not illegal AND if YOU have no problem with it then surely that is all that matters? It is your child after all

[pinkpiggy]

Daniela

I'm also under the impression that it's against the law to leave children alone under the age of 14. See this page on the Child Youth & Family website.

http://www.cyf.govt.nz/1714.htm

Having said this, we do occasionally leave the boys for a very short while if we need to pop out but we always ask if they want to come. We make sure they know how to contact us (usually mobile) or who to go to (neighbours) if something happens. I myself was left alone with my brothers when we were younger (I was 8 my brothers 10 & 11).

It's not something I'm particularly comfortable with but provided it's only for 15-20 minutes I think it's good for them to start becoming independent.

[James 1077]

Daniela

I'm also under the impression that it's against the law to leave children alone under the age of 14. See this page on the Child Youth & Family website.

http://www.cyf.govt.nz/1714.htm



Doesn't that just say that it isn't illegal? The factsheet says:


In New Zealand, it is against the law to leave children under 14 without making reasonable provision for their care and supervision. What is considered ‘reasonable’ also takes into account the circumstances under which children are left alone and the length of time they are alone. Parents are required to assess all the circumstances and make sure that any child left alone is safe and in no danger.

It is therefore OK to leave children under 14 alone provided that you make reasonable provision for their care and supervision.


Having said this, we do occasionally leave the boys for a very short while if we need to pop out but we always ask if they want to come. We make sure they know how to contact us (usually mobile) or who to go to (neighbours) if something happens. I myself was left alone with my brothers when we were younger (I was 8 my brothers 10 & 11).

It's not something I'm particularly comfortable with but provided it's only for 15-20 minutes I think it's good for them to start becoming independent.

Seems to me that by not going for very long, and by making sure they know how to contact you and who to go to then you have made reasonable provision for their care and supervision!

[dharder]

I'm also under the impression that it's against the law to leave children alone under the age of 14. See this page on the Child Youth & Family website.

http://www.cyf.govt.nz/1714.htm

Well, the law specifically says that if you leave a child under 6, that is illegal. From the age of seven onwards, it is a bit more vague: it says that you have made reasonable provisions for their safety and wellbeing. So it is not as such against the law, but if something happens and you are found to have not been careful and considerate enough, you will get into trouble.

I think there is another website, would have to look for it, that gives some examples of what reasonable provisions or something like that would be, it says leaving an 8 year old for a week while you go on holiday is not reasonable, while leaving an 8 year old for 2 hours while you go shopping might be.

Yes, I think it is important to leave them for short periods of time so they can feel independent, but sometimes it is also really difficult not to (with one stay at home parent and four children, it sometimes is a bit of a logistical issue).

So if you do leave them, are you comfortable letting other people know you do, pinkpiggy?

Daniela

[dharder]

It is therefore OK to leave children under 14 alone provided that you make reasonable provision for their care and supervision.

Yes, that is the misunderstanding I am referring to, that most people seem to think that reasonable provision necessarily means an adult (or an over 16 year old).

Must have posted at the same time... :)

Daniela

[marcia]

Well I've learnt something today!! i thought it was actually illegal to leave the kids under 14 years of age alone, however i have done, :o for about 10-15 mins whilst I pop to the shop for bread and milk instead of dragging 3 grumpy kids along - leaving them with instructions not to answer the door and if the phone rings to say I'm in the shower and will ring back!!

I think if anything actually happened to a child who was left under the age of 14 and an accident happened, even if you felt you had made reasonable steps to ensure their safety - it could all turn to custard with the authorities, as one persons idea of reasonable steps and someone elses may vary hugely.

My neighbours leave their 12 year old child all day home alone in the holidays whilst they are working - Ok I'm usually about or one of the other neighbours and he has access to a phone - but my personal feeling is that is not reasonable or a good thing to do.

I will still make sure our boys are looked after if we go out for any length of time, however won't feel as guilty now if i have to pop to the shop for bread and milk! ;)

[dharder]

I think if anything actually happened to a child who was left under the age of 14 and an accident happened, even if you felt you had made reasonable steps to ensure their safety - it could all turn to custard with the authorities, as one persons idea of reasonable steps and someone elses may vary hugely.

Yes, that is the problem with laws like this one. Funnily enough, this is actually almost exactly the same wording as it is in the UK (IIRC), yet the perception of the law is very different.

My problem currently is just that even though I'm comfortable with leaving my older kids for short periods of time, I'm not sure if I want to be perceived as someone breaking the law if I mention this in a conversation. Hence my original question, is it worse to be seen as someone breaking the law, or an argumentative know-it-all which I might be perceived as if I correct that assumption and point out that I am doing nothing illegal?

Ah well. Last time this came up, I dropped it at some point, although I did say that a lot of people seem to send their under 14s to school by themselves, which technically, according to that definition of the law, would be illegal. The time before that when it came up, I tried to argue the point, but got nowhere. We'll see what happens next time.

Daniela

[Sam B]

I occasionally leave my 11 year old home alone for up to half an hour at a time to pop to the shops etc. I don't generally talk about it with other parents as some people have very strong opinions about this sort of thing. I myself was left home alone very frequently and for long periods of time from the age of 6 or 7, by my single parent dad. I'm not saying this is right, but it has probably made me a bit more relaxed about this sort of thing.

I would not leave my 8 year old home alone, as she has a tendency to panic and worry about things. Neither would i leave her with her big sister - as together they tend to get up to too much mischief!

[SharpBlade]

You know, Daniella, I have done it loads of time, both here in Chch and in Ireland. Never for a long period of time, but still, anything can happen to you or the kids when you leave home even for only 5 min. (Everytime I left the kids home to quickly go to Countdown, there was always a problem at the check out, made a 5 min trip way longer ..).
However, I believe I know my children much better than anyone else. They are sensible and our neighbours are home most of the time. I trust my kids. This morning, our eldest one (9) took his sister (5) to the library on their bikes, stayed there for 30 min and came back. The library is 1 km away from our house and the streets are quiet.
I find my kids more streetwise than others. They have to get some opportunities to take the right decision and that wouldn't happen if I was always there checking out what they do. They have never ever taken advantage of their time left home by themselves, they don't even go and have a dip in the lolly tin..
But like you said, I usually don't say anything about this because people probably don't think it is wise and I don't want to make a big issue of it.
Last thing, I don't leave the little ones home by themselves. Under 7 years old, they come with me unless my neighbour is there to keep an eye on them.
Laura

[James 1077]

I think that a large amount depends on the child - how independent are they naturally?

For example when I was a kid in the UK (between ages of 6 & 9) my parents both worked and mum worked shifts. As Dad was out of the door at 7am each morning my sis (2 years older) and I would often be left alone for an hour or so before school. We would then pop outside, jump on the bus, and head off to school for the day.

When we came home (again, by bus, alone) sometimes Mum would be there but sometimes not - if she wasn't then we would normally go to our next door neighbour and stay with him until Dad got home.

After a year of this I changed schools as the teachers at the state primary weren't able to spend enough time with me so I got a scholarship to a decent private school. This meant that I would get the bus into town (dropping off my sis on the way) and change onto a different bus to the new school. On the way home I would either do the same in reverse or I would walk the first bus route so that I could pop into the library to get some new books out.

Neighbours and friends thought that it was very odd that I was allowed to wander around town alone and get the bus alone etc at the age of 7 but I was a bright kid and knew what I was doing. My parents trusted me and I wasn't phased by any of it at all.

In fact when my parents headed back out to the Middle-East after 3 years in the UK (they got fed up with large amounts of their salaries going to government) I asked to stay at school in the UK! So my parents had to hastily find me a boarding school!

However if it had of just been my sister then there is no way that this could have happened as she just wasn't independent enough to be able to cope. She was fine with me there though so I was able to "look after her".

[Tia Maria]

James1077 wrote:

However if it had of just been my sister then there is no way that this could have happened as she just wasn't independent enough to be able to cope. She was fine with me there though so I was able to "look after her".

Thats women for ya, always need a bloke around to look after them. :p

Cheers

Tia

[jandk]

lovely thread we are in a similar position sometimes with our 11 year old boy who doesnt want to nip to the shops with us , we know he is sensible and does as he is told so we will leave him for 1/2 hr or so but dont tell anyone as again the looks sometimes. Every child is different and some adults i`ve met i dont like to leave them alone so each to their own i say and taking reasonable care is the main thing!

[mackstann]

Children used to have much more freedom than they generally do now. I think we coddle and protect them too much and actually end up causing them a different kind of harm. There is increasing research supporting this view.

[mcacmartin]

Check out this blog.... http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/ it's great and she really has a point! I've tried very hard to not coddle my kids and let them explore but even I'm guilty of it from time to time. Especially because we live in the city.

[Familyofmonkeys]

I've tried very hard to not coddle my kids and let them explore but even I'm guilty of it from time to time.

It's not so much my children being sensible that worries me, but other people taking advantage of their vulnerability. Luckily we've got a few years before we have to start worrying about that sort of thing as they are still young.

I was being paid to babysit several nights a week from the age of 12, but I can't imagine my kids doing that these says :uhoh

[JandM]

Love the blog. :nice1

I was an only child, and was regularly left for a while in school holidays while my mother worked part-time. I also had my own key in case I was home from school before her, though she was usually there. It didn't bother me a bit. I knew I could ask one of the neighbours, or the local shopkeeper, if I was worried about anything, or phone either parent at work - from the phone box at the end of the road, as phones in the home weren't universal then.

From the age of 8 I used to catch a train into the town centre, cross the bottom end of town to the bus station, and catch a bus out to my school (and the reverse coming back, with possible shop and library visits, like James). My mother went with me for the first two days, pointing out what I needed to do and watch out for, and then (I found out years later) shadowed me for the next week to make sure I was okay. I was. I continued to be. As I got older, I'd be allowed to do trips to town for shopping or the cinema with friends (back by a certain bus or else), and by early teens, the same to London (40 minutes on the train), again to areas where I'd been previously with Mum showing me the ropes.

I liked the way I was treated, and tried to do much the same with my own children in their turn.

[pinkpiggy]

I guess for me the reason I'm not as comfortable as I'd like to be with the whole thing is the fact that Joe has Aspergers and can become quite anxious. Even if he says he's fine, if he hears a strange noise he can start to panic. Like so many other every day things we take for granted I'm the one who has to learn to let go a little. :(

[sweetpea]

I was being paid to babysit several nights a week from the age of 12, but I can't imagine my kids doing that these says :uhoh

OK, it's not just me. I was a babysitter for the neighbors' kids when I was 12 too, and my sisters and I were left alone all the time as kids. Times have changed.

[ant7jen]

One bit of advice. My daughter at the age of 9, was told that if someone knocks on the door to not open it but ask who it is. Big no, no. Not 2 weeks later, me and the wife was in the backyard for about 3 or 4 minutes when our daughter came out and handed us a phamphlet from a door to door salesman. My wife asked where did she get this and our daughter said that the nice man at the door gave it to her.:uhoh
Then we told her NEVER to ask who it is or open the door because bad guys are all around. I did not sugar coat what the bad guys do to little girls. I told her what they do. So my advise is to do not give them the option to ask who it is because it is one step away from opening the door.

[mackstann]

One bit of advice. My daughter at the age of 9, was told that if someone knocks on the door to not open it but ask who it is. Big no, no. Not 2 weeks later, me and the wife was in the backyard for about 3 or 4 minutes when our daughter came out and handed us a phamphlet from a door to door salesman. My wife asked where did she get this and our daughter said that the nice man at the door gave it to her.:uhoh
Then we told her NEVER to ask who it is or open the door because bad guys are all around. I did not sugar coat what the bad guys do to little girls. I told her what they do. So my advise is to do not give them the option to ask who it is because it is one step away from opening the door.

Are sexual assault rates in NZ really high or something? The world is really NOT that dangerous... and most sexual assaults are committed by family / friends of family.

[Andy-Dee]

Love the blog. :nice1

I was an only child, and was regularly left for a while in school holidays while my mother worked part-time. I also had my own key in case I was home from school before her, though she was usually there. It didn't bother me a bit. I knew I could ask one of the neighbours, or the local shopkeeper, if I was worried about anything, or phone either parent at work - from the phone box at the end of the road, as phones in the home weren't universal then.

From the age of 8 I used to catch a train into the town centre, cross the bottom end of town to the bus station, and catch a bus out to my school (and the reverse coming back, with possible shop and library visits, like James). My mother went with me for the first two days, pointing out what I needed to do and watch out for, and then (I found out years later) shadowed me for the next week to make sure I was okay. I was. I continued to be. As I got older, I'd be allowed to do trips to town for shopping or the cinema with friends (back by a certain bus or else), and by early teens, the same to London (40 minutes on the train), again to areas where I'd been previously with Mum showing me the ropes.

I liked the way I was treated, and tried to do much the same with my own children in their turn.

SNAP - I had to catch a bus from Southport town centre to school on my own aged 7/8 as my mum had twin babies to look after.

I also used to go keep my aunt company (her husband worked away) in Skelmersdale - if you've ever been - its scary now. It probably was then but I wasn't fazzed at all.

I would have LOVED to go to boarding school - it was my dream. My husband did - and HATED it. Horses for courses I guess.

[ant7jen]

mackstan, I am in the US. A few years ago, there was a man who snatched a little girl up in front of her best friend in front of her house and that night, they found her naked body thrown into a ravine. She was just 8 years old, I believe.

[mackstann]

mackstan, I am in the US. A few years ago, there was a man who snatched a little girl up in front of her best friend in front of her house and that night, they found her naked body thrown into a ravine. She was just 8 years old, I believe.
One story like that affects your daily habits?

There are horrifying anecdotes of rape, murder, etc. going back to the dawn of time. The reality is that the likelihood of something like that happening to you is REALLY REALLY miniscule.

And the negative effects of being so paranoid and afraid are much worse. IMO.

[victoria24]

i find it all a bit amazing.. they are "my/our" children after all and i/we are responsible for them either way. i remember reading a thread the other week about common sense being out the window. i'm sure the vast majority of people do the best for the children whatever the circumstance and legal guidance is created for the lowest common denominator.

[ant7jen]

True, the world is a nasty place but I may sound to be super cautious but I don't act like she can't have freedom as a child. There was an attempted abduction last year the street behind me. So for me, that is close enough.

As far as leaving my daughter by herself? I have done it less than a dozen times to leave to work for night shift and have my wife return home from work within 1/2 hour from when I left. I just lock up the house and set the alarm and tell her to not go to the door and tell her to call one of us if anything weird happens. She does great and actually thinks it is fun.

[Flutterby]

i can remember being left home alone when young, but i was never allowed to go anywhere alone, when i was a teenager at college my parents freaked out if i went out at night and insisted on me contacting them by phone if i was going to be late home from college.
IMO if it was wrong for me to go out alone then it was irresponsible for my parents to leave me home alone, BUT i personally think that limiting my freedom so much was damaging to my mental health.
Personally i would rather know that someone is keeping an eye on my kid, but she is only two and things could change in time, i know that after she is put to bed she is asleep for the night (unless she is ill) so technically if i had to i could pop to the shop (and i have done on occasion)
The question of legality all boils down to the word "reasonable" and this can be interpreted very differently, what is reasonable for one, may be unexceptable to another.
i would feel uncomfortable sharing this information with other people whom i don't know well, for fear it may put my child in a vulnerable position, but would rather have a close friend or neighbour looking out for my child than feel that she is totally home alone - its a tricky balance!

[Tia Maria]

One story like that affects your daily habits?

There are horrifying anecdotes of rape, murder, etc. going back to the dawn of time. The reality is that the likelihood of something like that happening to you is REALLY REALLY miniscule.

And the negative effects of being so paranoid and afraid are much worse. IMO.

I would have thought it very much depends on where you live. When my son was first born we lived in Camden, we decided to move out - mainly because its a pain trying to haul a buggy round central London, in the month that followed there were numerous muggings, fights and 2 shootings on our old street. None directly aimed at children, but, no I wouldn't let my child walk to the park in that area.

Prior to that I lived in Kentish Town, London, and, Toxeth, Liverpool, in both areas I saw some awful examples of parenting and I heard enough through the walls to know that not every parent is capable of making sensible decision when it comes to their child's safety. No, I wouldn't let my child open the door in these areas.

I now live in Devonport, reportedly one of the safest places in NZ, since being here I have heard of a few incidents involving children, a fatal hit and run near are local park and an attempted abduction at the local school. However, I've also seen numerous examples of adult who help children if they are having trouble crossing a busy road or looking after them if they fall of their bike. Its this sense of community which more than compensates for any negative incidents and makes it feel very much like a safe place.

I have talked to my kids about strangers and the importance of not always doing what an adult says if it seems wrong. I have taken them out on numerous occasions to teach them road safety, (a bigger danger in my mind than strangers), and I have taught them what to do in an emergency. I appreciate they now live in a super safe environment but want to pass on some street wise behaviour to prepare them for the big wide world.

I think, as other posters have mentioned, the child's personality plays a big part. My oldest is super sensible but can also be quite nervous, he is more than capable of being left on his own but would be really worried so he's clearly not ready.

Probably if someone told me they have left there kid home alone I would put it in context of the child and the parent rather than the age of the child, as this is more relevant. So in some situations I would view it negatively and in others I wouldn't blink an eye.

If someone is judging me on my parenting I tend to take the middle ground, partly because no one is a perfect parent and they might have a point and partly because I know I work hard at doing the right thing so don't feel the need to justify my decisions. In this situation I would probably turn the question back on them and find out their reasons for not doing it with their children, it would probably become clear then as to why different choices have been made ie if they had a child that worried like mine.

Ultimately, if they are a friend they will know you well enough to know you make good choices, if you don't know them so well, then normally a friendly chatty explanation is enough for them to forget their concerns. There is probably something they would let their child do, that you wouldn't - find that out then you're even! :D

Cheers

Tia