[skibumwa]

Hello All,

I have got a frustrating story for you to here. I was trying to sponsor my partner/future wife/girlfriend on a 12-month Visa under Sponsorship. After she were to get it, then she'd apply for PR under sponsorship. Well my partner of 16 months was rejected for a 12 month visa under my sponsorship for a requirement we lacked that NZIS did not even care to advertise or show on their Family Stream Webpage:

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/worktemporarily/requirements/Familystream.htm

If you review the area for "Joining your partner" > "Your Partner is a NZ Resident" you'll see no mention of the applicant and the partner having to live together ever for a requirement to get the Visa. Nor do you see any link to any "detailed requirements" PDF file for this visa anywhere. I don't see a darn thing! :mad:

Well we were turned down for that very reason of "we never lived together and therefore we cannot be in stable relationship". They will however offer her a 9 month visitor visa under sponsorship then allow her to apply for an extension for 3 months so she'll then qualify for PR under Sponsorship, but then she will have to leave NZ (while her PR is processed) as her 3-month extension visitor visa will expire. The entire downside to this is that she cannot work in NZ while on a visitor visa.

Our VO says though, "No worries, she can get a job offer in NZ then get her work permit then onshore easily". Oh really is my though? I don't know about you but most NZ employers won't even interview a person unless they have a Work Permit already. So how does one get a work permit then without a job offer? Is this the "chicken and the egg" scenario or a sick joke?

I am equally upset because they say I won't get credit for the difference in cost of in visas ($294 work vs. $135 visitor) because they said they put "extensive effort" into processing her visa application. Well to me this extensive effort is dwarfed by the fact we were turned down for this visa for her because of a requirement that was not even publicly visible on their Webpage in question. If I would have seen this "living together" requirement on this Webpage as on a linked document from there, we would have applied for a 9 month visitor visa and saved $170.

Does anyone have any advice for these 2 areas for me:

1) How to get a partial refund for this hidden requirement as a reason for denial?
2) How to get around the chicken and the egg scenario while my partner lives with me in NZ as a "visitor". She needs to work, she has skills and has a university degree and it 3x multi-lingual however she is worried that no employer will even interview her because she lacks a work permit.

Your help is appreciated here...

Frustrated in Welly,
John

[Moorf]

Hiya

If you follow the link under the header "Your partner is a NZ citizen or resident" ('genuine relationship) it takes you to a pop-up window which contains another link (partner) which then states you must have lived together for at least 12 months...

Partner

A partner of a principal applicant is someone who is legally married to, or in a civil union or de facto relationship with, the applicant.



The partnership can be between people of the opposite or same sex. The partnership must be genuine and stable.



We recognise partnerships where both partners:

*
are aged 18 or over (or have parental/guardian or other consent if aged 16 or 17 years)
*
met each other before any residence application was submitted
*
aren’t close relatives.



A partner will only be granted residence if both people in the partnership have been living together for at least 12 months.


Civil union

A civil union is a legally recognised union of a couple of the same or opposite sex, with rights similar to those of marriage.


De facto relationship

A de facto relationship is partnership that has not been legally recognised as a marriage or a civil union. If you consider yourself to be in a de facto relationship please ensure you and your partner meet the requirements for recognition of partnerships as stated above.


Is that what you mean?

[skibumwa]

Hi Moorf,

She is not applying for PR. That is a requirement for PR under Sponsorship and NOT for work visa under Sponsorship. And yes I already saw that... :yes

-John



Hiya

If you follow the link under the header "Your partner is a NZ citizen or resident" ('genuine relationship) it takes you to a pop-up window which contains another link (partner) which then states you must have lived together for at least 12 months...




Is that what you mean?

[Moorf]

Ah sorry, I thought that was the general NZIS determination of 'partner' regardless of visa... now I'm just as confused as you... :laugh

[wilson182]

I'm confused too, not even going to attempt the visa problem. Completely different circumstances John, but we managed to get a job offer without a work visa. I am going back four years and it was Christchurch, but getting the work visa was really quick and simple once we had all the requirements (ie, job offer, contract, payment, forms etc) OH queued up at the NZIS office and was issued one there and then.

HTH and good luck

[Moorf]

Quite, we also came on visitors visas and OH got his job no problems.... :yes

[IanW99]

Hi Moorf,

She is not applying for PR. That is a requirement for PR under Sponsorship and NOT for work visa under Sponsorship. And yes I already saw that... :yes

-John

AFAIK, the definition of partner is the same.

If you go to the page that you provided the link for, it says "if you want to join your partner" where you can click on the link for partner for a description (which is the same as posted by Moorf).

Why do you think that the definitions is not the same?

Ian

[Moorf]

We have made the same assumption, Ian, that the partner criteria apply no matter what visa... will be interesting to find if there are different scenarios altho' I've never heard of such... live and learn...

[skibumwa]

I was told they are NOT the same by my VO as requirements for PR under Sponsorship are different than Work Visa under Sponsorship. it reads,

"A partner will only be granted residence if both people in the partnership have been living together for at least 12 months."

The key word there is 'residence'. We are not applying for 'residence'

Even more confused now? Indeed ..... :yes
John



AFAIK, the definition of partner is the same.



Why do you think that the definitions is not the same?

Ian

[Moorf]

But... even in the para about getting a work visa (further down that page) it still says you need to prove you're in a genuine and stable relationship.. so.. surely that's back to the Partner definition and the 12 months living together? Just thinking aloud here...

[skibumwa]

Not really the same per my VO. WV and PR requirements differ indeed.

We proved all of that 3 times over with photos, letter, emails, video clips of us together from here in NZ and in her home country, etc etc that we are dedicated to one another in a stable relationship. We even said we wanted to get married to eachother in 2009 on phone interviews with them separately, but since we never lived together they rejected her application. Talk about being "COLD as ICE". Geesh...

It's only 12 mth fixed term work visa; it's not like we are asking for them to approve a PR - right?

:wah

But... even in the para about getting a work visa (further down that page) it still says you need to prove you're in a genuine and stable relationship.. so.. surely that's back to the Partner definition and the 12 months living together? Just thinking aloud here...

[skibumwa]

PS. My partner speaks English, Mandarin, Malay and Cantonese. She has a 4 yr university degree, job experience and is hard worker. Is NZIS that off base here in denying her a open work visa based on our partnership? hummmmmm maybe now?

[Leccy-Lee]

Yup John sadly at times NZIS are that off base, i mean i got letters from employer desperate to keep me here, a skilled trade in high demand, and i have made a life here with home etc. But i been through the works for 18mths so far and yes its still going on....

I suppose there just doing there job and wanting to be sure you guys are the real deal, like the MA is doing his job seeing if am about to kick the bucket! I know it hurts, hell i know only too well mate! But tomorrow is another day, fight on...

[Moorf]

Have you been using the same VO from the get-go? If so, do you have anything in writing from them that says the Partner criteria differ depending on the visa? If this then turns out to be incorrect I would assume you have every chance of getting your $$ back as you were given (potentially) incorrect information and proceeded on that basis.

But Lee's right - they're only doing their job (hopefully accurately!) and some people are made to jump through hoops if they don't fit the profile they are seeking. My Dad had a fight on his hands, Lee's doing the same, keep at it....

[Moorf]

PS. My partner speaks English, Mandarin, Malay and Cantonese. She has a 4 yr university degree, job experience and is hard worker.

With that, wouldn't it be easier/quicker for her to apply herself instead of being sponsored?

[ers99w]

I came on a visitor's visa and then got a job. I even worked before I had my work permit, they just paid me in a lump sum when it came through. It's worth a try!

[Tiggergirl]

:wah I'm worried now.

My partner came to the UK so that we could fulfill the 12 month living together because he could get time out from NZFS & I couldn't from my job. Even thought he'd been here for 5 weeks last December & back in March that didn't count because of the gap. Then he came the end of June, 2 months went by & his friend in NZ who was looking after his dog & house had a heartattack & ended up in ICU.

We spoke to NZIS over the phone from the UK & explained the situation. They said if I couldn't come back with him now then I could just apply for a temporary work visa under partnership category & my daughter could apply for a student visa & we could do the 12 months living together in NZ when we arrived. Doing it this way meant that we probably wouldn't have to rush to do the medicals over here until we applied for PR over there.

For a temporary work visa you don't have to be together for 12 months was what we were told over the phone.

I hope we haven't been given the wrong information by NZIS :uhoh

Tiggergirl

[skibumwa]

Hi Moorf,

Yes we have been using the same VO.

Yes, here's the logic. They told me that we are lacking reason "A" to qualify for the visa, however requirement "A" is nowhere clear or visible or linked from the Family Stream Visa Webpage. I think that's pretty deceptive; well at the very least not very fair. The manager of this branch is going to review this and hopefully offer a refund.

cheers,

John


Have you been using the same VO from the get-go? If so, do you have anything in writing from them that says the Partner criteria differ depending on the visa? If this then turns out to be incorrect I would assume you have every chance of getting your $$ back as you were given (potentially) incorrect information and proceeded on that basis.

But Lee's right - they're only doing their job (hopefully accurately!) and some people are made to jump through hoops if they don't fit the profile they are seeking. My Dad had a fight on his hands, Lee's doing the same, keep at it....

[kenfrapin]

This post is of high interest to me with regards to the 'Visitor Visa' route to NZ and then getting the work permit done. Also, my OH will come along so I fall in the same boat.
As some would have read in my other thread, I have a potential offer on the table. The agent has informed me that if the offer comes through, we ( wife and myself) should take visitor visas and move out there. Once we arrive, I can get my Work Permit.

My 2 main questions
1. Clearly, it seems quite a few have taken this route with a visitor's visa so I presume this absolutely legal?
2. What type of visa will my wife be given? We have been 2 plus years now and have the marriage cert as well. Will she automatically get a Dependant Work Visa when I apply? Im not sure because in the UK, when I have a WP, then my wife gets a dependent Work Permit. Does the same hold for NZ? If not, what are my options?

Cheers
Ken

[Flutterby]

i remember reading somewhere that you didn't have to be living together for the residence (this was 4 years ago so it may be different now)
i think it said something along the lines of you will be given the opportunity to prove your stable relationship in the interview, it didn't apply to us, so i read no more into it.
But if you were given that information then i say be persistent about it because that way it will ensure they clarify it for others and hopefully smooth things out for you.

on a slighty different note, if her skills and degree are that good, then she would surely be better off to apply via the skilled migrant route, as that would remove the partnership restrictions (what happens if you split up)

[Moorf]

1. Clearly, it seems quite a few have taken this route with a visitor's visa so I presume this absolutely legal?

You can't work on a visitors visa, but you can seek out and apply for jobs, that isn't illegal. Once you have the job offer you nip down the Immigration Office and you get your Work Visa (your employer will need to fill in a form, too, usually, which you take to support the application).


2. What type of visa will my wife be given? We have been 2 plus years now and have the marriage cert as well. Will she automatically get a Dependant Work Visa when I apply? Im not sure because in the UK, when I have a WP, then my wife gets a dependent Work Permit. Does the same hold for NZ? If not, what are my options?

She will also get a Work Visa which will be valid for the same length of time as yours.

[dharder]

I'm sorry you have all this trouble, John.

I would have assumed as well though that the definition of 'partner' is the same across all categories, as I know that people who come here as partners of someone on a work visa also need to prove their relationship (defined by the one year together).

I thought the only exception is that you can have a partner join you for the purpose of getting married and can prove that for cultural/religious reasons you couldn't live together before the marriage, then they can waive the 12 month requirement.

Good luck,
Daniela

[skibumwa]

Moorf is right here, except MOST NZ employers expect you to have your work permit before they'll interview you/offer you a job. This is the catch-22 or "chicken and egg" scenario I am referring to. So a job offer is required before you can get your work permit.

This is an issue with the DOL and educating employers that getting a work permit is only a 2-3 week process.

[QUOTE=Moorf;251553]You can't work on a visitors visa, but you can seek out and apply for jobs, that isn't illegal. Once you have the job offer you nip down the Immigration Office and you get your Work Visa (your employer will need to fill in a form, too, usually, which you take to support the application).
QUOTE]

[kanatakiwi]

I came on a visitor's visa and then got a job. I even worked before I had my work permit, they just paid me in a lump sum when it came through. It's worth a try!

I wouldn't be broadcasting that very much!

[skibumwa]

Thanks Daniela.. trouble is does not even begin to describe how I feel now.:wah

We proved we are partners in a committed relationship, but we never lived together. We've been a couple for 1.5 years now. NZIS needs to clarify this so others like us don't get ripped by their dpoorly written rules. I don't assume anything with NZIS, I go by what their Webpage says for requirements. If the section of a Webpage that applies to myself and my partner does not specify any particular details nor there is no link to the details, I don't assume anything else is required.

-John




I'm sorry you have all this trouble, John.

I would have assumed as well though that the definition of 'partner' is the same across all categories, as I know that people who come here as partners of someone on a work visa also need to prove their relationship (defined by the one year together).

Good luck,
Daniela

[Jo Jo]

We proved we are partners in a committed relationship, but we never lived together. We've been a couple for 1.5 years now. NZIS needs to clarify this so others like us don't get ripped by their dpoorly written rules. I don't assume anything with NZIS, I go by what their Webpage says for requirements. If the section of a Webpage that applies to myself and my partner does not specify any particular details nor there is no link to the details, I don't assume anything else is required.

-John

I agree that the rules are poorly written.

On the NZIS website it does say that you have to live, or have lived together, as partners for the relationship to be recognised as a partnership, but not in so many words. I completely agree with you that NZIS should make this a lot clearer both on the website and in the operations manual.

The definition of partner is, as Moorf stated above, "someone who is legally married, in a civil union or in a de facto relationship".

The key phrase there is "de facto relationship", which has a legal definition in NZ, which is that the couple are living together as if they are married. (You can find a definition here (http://www.communitylaw.org.nz/De-Facto-Relatio.224.0.html).) However, it doesn't state that definition anywhere on the NZIS website that I can see. This is a big omission on their part as many countries don't use the term "de facto relationship", which can lead to exactly the sort of problem you are having now. You are in a genuine and stable relationship, but it is not de facto relationship as you have never lived together, so you are not "partners" under the NZIS rules, which is presumably why they have rejected your application.

Now, what can you do? First of all, the fees: did you get advice from NZIS before applying for the visa? If you did, and it was never made clear to you that you are not partners according to their definition, then you should push for a refund of the fees.

Secondly, can you and your partner afford for her to come to NZ without her working for a month or so? If so, can she not come here, and then reapply for a work visa based on your partnership after the first few weeks? Once you are living together, you will be partners as defined by NZIS as you will be in a de facto relationship. And, as you correctly say, you do not have to have been living together for 12 months in order to be granted a temporary entry work visa: it says so quite clearly on the NZIS website - If you have been in this relationship for less than a year, initially we can only grant you a work visa or permit for up to 12 months. Once you are here, you can apply for further work permits for a total stay of up to two years from your arrival,

Ask NZIS exactly how long you'd have to be living together before they'd grant the temporary work visa.

Good luck - I hope it all works out for you.

[M-Squared]

Oh John!!! :wah

I'm so sorry! We (me and hubs) know how much you were looking forward to her coming over. Can she not get a work permit, once here as a visitor and with job offer, then you can live together and therefore prove your relationship that way?

Strange how different countries see this... when I applied for my Immigrant Visa to the US, which turned into a Green Card upon arrival, they couldn't have given a stuff if we'd lived together or even had a proper relationship. All that mattered was the marriage licence. Crazy!!! :mad:

[skibumwa]

I told them about our relationship in detail & how we never lived together (but were a stable couple who has plans for marriage) before applying for the Work Visa. They said to apply for a Work Visa for Under Sponsorship, then after she lives with me in NZ for a year under the Work visa, she can be eligible for PR under Sponsorship. So yes I am pushing for a partial refund for many reasons.

I will ask them over email how long exactly we should be living together before applying for a Work Visa under Sponsorship so we can be guaranteed to be approved. I will get them to give that to me in writing that way if the NZIS Wellington tries to turn us down I can show them the email.

Thanks for the good advice Jojo.

Cheers,
John


Now, what can you do? First of all, the fees: did you get advice from NZIS before applying for the visa? If you did, and it was never made clear to you that you are not partners according to their definition, then you should push for a refund of the fees.

Ask NZIS exactly how long you'd have to be living together before they'd grant the temporary work visa.

Good luck - I hope it all works out for you.

[skibumwa]

I agree. I hope this person's VO is not reading this thread. :exit:exit

I wouldn't be broadcasting that very much!

[eternalkiwi]

Sorry to hear that things have taken another turn!

I hope you are able to negotiate a compromise with Immigration.
Do you have emails or letters that document your communications with NZIS?

Immigration do not have any timeframe for living together, they look at the substance rather than time or certificates. If you are able to prove the requirements below, you should be able to sponsor your partner.
I have heard of people being recognised as a partner after 1-2 months of living together.


To clarify what Evidence of Partnership NZ Immigration require for sponsored work visas, I have copied their web page advice below:

* marriage certificate (if married)
* civil union certificate (if in a civil union)
* proof of shared residence (such as joint mortgage or tenancy agreements of rent book)
* financial dependence or interdependence (proof of shared income or bank accounts, or accounts that show money transfers to or from your account to your partner’s account)
* birth certificates of your children
* any documents showing public or family recognition of your relationship
* correspondence (including post marked envelopes) to you and your partner at the same address
* photographs of you and your partner together
* evidence of the duration of your relationship
* the degree of commitment to a shared life
* evidence of communication between you both
* evidence of you being committed to each other emotionally and exclusively, such as evidence of joint decision making, an exclusive sexual relationship, and the sharing of household duties, parental responsibility, and spare time.


Shawn

[Hejwitch_uk]

I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you've hit this problem. I obviously can't know how you feel, but wanted to give a wee bit of cyber-support.

[skibumwa]

Update: I got my partial refund from NZIS as requested and she's getting a 9 month visitor visa with can be extended to total 12 months. After 3 months of living with me, she will then be qualified for a Work Permit Under Sponsorship. So I guess I will be FULLY supporting her until she can get a work permit then a job. Love is great right? :)

Now I am unsure when she's moving here... tick tock tick tock.. etc.. More adventure for me?

[Jo Jo]

Update: I got my partial refund from NZIS as requested and she's getting a 9 month visitor visa with can be extended to total 12 months.

That's great news about the refund. Good luck with it all.

[Tiggergirl]

:D Congratulations, I'm really pleased for you both.

Tiggergirl

[kerrijeansmith]

Hooray!

[skibumwa]

Thanks everyone.

I still think the process is broken, but at least the NZIS officers are aware of this hence my refund I was given. FYI - My VO called me at 6:30pm her time last night to answer my question. She was worried that I was confused and/or upset and wanted to clarify. I find it pretty amazing she called me so late after her work hours to sort out an issue. Well now that the NZIS visa officers offshore seem helpful, now the people at the Beehive need to fix the processes so the NZIS VOs can better do their jobs.

"Rome was not built in a day" - right?

Cheers,
John

[BaldyBeardyBloke]

Sounds like you have managed to get a compromise way forward, which is great news for you.

Many people have found work whilst being here on a visitor visa, so i wouldn't get too disheartened about the possibility of that happening.

Onwards and upwards....