[kenfrapin]

Hello everyone,

Not very sure if such a topic has been discussed before and from the various threads, I can see that in one way or the other, such discussions have been brought up. So decided to start a new thread to discuss the situation in detail.

I came across a very interesting discussion between people moving from UK to NZ and those already living in NZ. It was an eye opener and made one very important point - Every country has its good and bad points, its highs and lows. The grass is always greener on the other side right???Hmmm...

My intention with this thread is to understand how life has been, in general, for those who have just moved out to NZ - Community life, surroundings, interaction with locals and even the job hunting and schooling, living expenses. It would help so many of us who are planning to make NZ our home

We all seek the best in life, for us and for our children. This is what gives us the drive to wrap it all and say good bye to friends and family and take that plunge. So is this plunge worth taking?

Albiet the beautiful sceneries and peace of mind out in NZ, there are quite a few things lacking. Some of them are
1. Expensive healthcare
2. Most houses not built with central heating - hence damp n cold
3. Night life, or shall I say the friday evening get togethers in NZ - Is it similar to UK?
4. The opportunity to really mix with the locals - or do all expats make their own groups and stick to themselves
5. The noisy cars in the middle of the night and brash youngsters
6. Pay cuts in jobs to just start our careers
7. Expensive holidays and hence not as easy as the UK
8. Is racism and a general ill feeling for migrants growing?
9. Broadband and cable TV - Silly I know but all this counts in the long run
Finally - the choices one has when it comes to supermarkets, DIY stores, fast food, microwaveable food and the likes.

Comparing India and UK, there is a noticeable difference in the quality of life. When I say India, I mean the big cities like Bangalore and Bombay, where money and luxury comes to all who have money. Infrastructure and night life is superb in UK, work gets done quite quickly without the red tape ( rememebr, I am comparing this to India). Agreed, in the past few years, prices have sky rocketed, but it has so almost everywhere. We came here to enjoy the English life, and it may sound hypocritic coming from me, but the English way of life seems to be fast losing its way because of a lot of migration from Easter Europe and Asia. Many Asians are worried about racism, which is fair, but in the UK life has indeed been good and the English, Welsh and Scots are really warm and friendly people.

I live in Slough, Berkshire now but stayed for 2 years in Bristol and we miss all our dear English family friends and the roast dinners!! I will be lucky to spot even a single English person in Slough!
Yes we are Indians, but we have lived just 4 years of our 26 odd life years there, so we dont feel bad admitting this! 2 more years in the UK and Im more English than Indian. In case you are wondering, we were born and brought up in Kuwait, and I have had quite a few friends and knew families from all corners of the world - US, UK, Poland, South Africa and many more...

I have read some feedback from families who moved to NZ and are genuinely finding it difficult to cope. Most stats do say that most British move back to UK or elsewhere after 5 years.

So is this true? Is NZ the Utopia we are all searching for? And is it still worth going to - Sacrificing it all and taking that big risk. Thoughts, experiences and information for one and all would be really appreciated and helpful to almost all of us thinking of moving out there in the hopes of a better future for us and our families.

I do not intend to point fingers or start a war of words in this thread. These are fears of almost all families when they start planning their move and so people who have advice in this respect would be doing us all a great big service

Regards
Ken

[BodaciousBean]

Hi there and thought I chime in with some thoughts :o

I have never been to NZ but hubby and I are not emigrating there to make a lateral move. We are looking for a simpler, quieter, less fast pace life, where folks understand what is important in life, rather than SUV's, material things and Starbucks. If we have to do without things we have become accustomed to, then that's the breaks. True, NZ has its problems, ALL countries do but nothing compared to the US at the moment. We know NZ is not utopia but what we desire, is in fact in NZ, based on our research.

In my very humble opinion, the reasons why we are emigrating and then wanting all that crud everyone thinks they need when we get over there, makes moving to NZ pointless. If that makes any sense.

I am really looking forward to a new life. This is very interesting thread and will be interested in people's responses. :yes

[Potato]

1. Expensive healthcare
2. Most houses not built with central heating - hence damp n cold
3. Night life, or shall I say the friday evening get togethers in NZ - Is it similar to UK?
4. The opportunity to really mix with the locals - or do all expats make their own groups and stick to themselves
5. The noisy cars in the middle of the night and brash youngsters
6. Pay cuts in jobs to just start our careers
7. Expensive holidays and hence not as easy as the UK
8. Is racism and a general ill feeling for migrants growing?
9. Broadband and cable TV - Silly I know but all this counts in the long run
Finally - the choices one has when it comes to supermarkets, DIY stores, fast food, microwaveable food and the likes.



1. Yes :(
2. Yes :(
3. Yes. :)
4. No. I live, work and play with Kiwis. I know one other British expat personally.
5. Yes, but no different to the UK. Youngsters (I am one myself) are brash by nature.
6. Yes, but I would rather work here than the UK.
7. Not really, there are good deals you just have to be smart. I got myself a foregin holiday this year and am only on ~$30k.
8. If you go looking for it, you'll probably find it. Otherwise it's not been an impact for me at all.
9. I haven't turned on the TV for 6 months. Cable TV? As they say in America: Whatever! Broadband is a step down from the UK but still allows me to do what I need to do.

[kenfrapin]

Hey BodaciousBean and Potato,

Fair answers. BB - We are moving across to NZ for a very similar reason. I may have written in a negative tone but our plans to move are still on! And since we r in our late 20s, looks like the kids wil be born out there :-)
Potato - Im happy with you answers, thanks!!!

Given the choices to have a peaceful life and stick close to the city life, which city is better? Auckland or Welly or somewhere else???
And yes, lets stick to the main topic, guys please give your experiences after moving out there and also let us know where u have settled down in NZ

Thanks
Ken

[BodaciousBean]

Thanks for your answers Potato! Really helpful. :nice1

[mylesdw]

Hi Ken,
it is always nice to see a well considered, well put question; I'll have a go at some responses...


My intention with this thread is to understand how life has been, in general, for those who have just moved out to NZ - Community life, surroundings, interaction with locals and even the job hunting and schooling, living expenses. It would help so many of us who are planning to make NZ our home


With or without recce trips, the first place you call home in NZ is a bit of a gamble; you may need to move once or twice in the first few years. We're in our third house near a village in North Canterbury we are very happy here. Who you end up with as neighbours is just the luck of the draw but it makes a huge difference, as it does anywhere in the world.


1. Expensive healthcare

Health care can work out expensive if you make frequent visits to your GP and need prescriptions and so on. Otherwise it is free. My wife had a fairly major operation last year; it was free. We DO have health insurance in case we needed something done quickly. It costs about $90 per month for a family of four.


2. Most houses not built with central heating - hence damp n cold

Central heating very rare but whether the houses are damp and cold really depends on their age. Houses built since 1990 or so tend to be quite well insulated; some even have double glazing. Here in Canterbury we really only get two months of cold weather each year so CH would not be used that much. The temperature seldom gets much below freezing at night and it is quite typical to have -2'C at sunrise and 22'C by lunchtime!


3. Night life, or shall I say the friday evening get togethers in NZ - Is it similar to UK?


We often go down for meal at the local pub on a Friday night, it is exactly like any English pub you might go into.


4. The opportunity to really mix with the locals - or do all expats make their own groups and stick to themselves


Tend to avoid expat groups. The community is great, you just need to get involved; join the PTA, sports clubs, Pony Club etc you'll soon meet all sorts of people and become 'part of the scenery'.


5. The noisy cars in the middle of the night and brash youngsters


A problem in most towns/cities around the world I believe.


6. Pay cuts in jobs to just start our careers


Yes, but not a simple equation because the lifestyle for a given income is so much better.


7. Expensive holidays and hence not as easy as the UK


Just a different choice of destinations. People from the UK pay a small fortune to holiday on the Pacific islands and Australia but they are fairly cheap from here.


8. Is racism and a general ill feeling for migrants growing?


Not noticeably. There is sometimes some grumbling about asians but unlike the UK where the term refers to Indians and Pakistanis it tends to mean oriental people here.


9. Broadband and cable TV - Silly I know but all this counts in the long run
Finally - the choices one has when it comes to supermarkets, DIY stores, fast food, microwaveable food and the likes.


Cable TV only in cities I think, broadband spreading to rural areas. Plenty of choice in shops really (much more than I need!) It really depends how remote you want to live.


Comparing India and UK, there is a noticeable difference in the quality of life. When I say India, I mean the big cities like Bangalore and Bombay, where money and luxury comes to all who have money. Infrastructure and night life is superb in UK, work gets done quite quickly without the red tape ( rememebr, I am comparing this to India).


Quality of life is very high here but more about freedom and space than about money and luxury.


I live in Slough, Berkshire now but stayed for 2 years in Bristol and we miss all our dear English family friends and the roast dinners!! I will be lucky to spot even a single English person in Slough!


Make me think of that BBC comedy where the Indian guys are going out for some 'really bland English food' on a Friday night. One thing I do miss is really good Indian food. Some great restaurants down the road from you in Hounslow.


I have read some feedback from families who moved to NZ and are genuinely finding it difficult to cope. Most stats do say that most British move back to UK or elsewhere after 5 years.


A strange one; I can't believe there is anywhere more English than here.


So is this true? Is NZ the Utopia we are all searching for? And is it still worth going to - Sacrificing it all and taking that big risk. Thoughts, experiences and information for one and all would be really appreciated and helpful to almost all of us thinking of moving out there in the hopes of a better future for us and our families.


If you are expecting utopia then you will be disappointed. Like anywhere there are good and bad points but I would not live anywhere else.

[kenfrapin]

Excellent stuff Myles, really insightful answers and more on the lines I was expecting how things would be there. We know how diverse society and materialistic requirements can be, so its always good to be accommodating and be realistic. You cant get everything in the world in one place!

For example, when we moved to Bristol, we did have to make that extra effort to be included in day to day town activities. You cant expect to be welcomed when you dont put your foot forward right?
Slough - Man, its a different world here now. Asians and Polish rule the roost out here and you can imagine how it is when a young Indian couple were surprised after moving out from Bristol to Slough. Lets not even talk about London.

Lifestyle wise, we are not extravagant nor wish for expensive weekend getaways or annual holidays, we arent that sorta couple. We prefer a nice quiet and serene life which is why we prefer NZ to Australia ( PS : We qualify for PR in both countries)

Healthcare with insurance is affordable so thats the right way to run the country. A few drinks in a pub with locals or whoever on Friday nights is all we want, and in time fitting in with the locals will be a thing of the past. Getting good neighbors is always the luck of the draw so we cant control that.

Racism was a concern especially since we are young and hence would travel more. Canterbury sounds really good, dint think of it before. Since Im from Telecoms in IT, we were looking at Welly.

Thanks a lot for the informative post, such information puts to peace many a niggling doubt. Regarding an Indian Curry, we shall share some once we r there. I love cooking after a stressful day. I dont like spicy food unlike my OH, so I am sure you can digest it :-)

Lastly, slightly off the topic, if I were given a job offer for about 80 to 85 k per year, should I go for it? Something's around the corner so thought of checking this out. Of course, OH would also work in time, and without kids in the picture, I feel its an ok figure just to get things moving in our plans of a home in NZ. What say?

Cheers
Ken

[kenfrapin]

Sorry for missing out an important thing to consider - EARTHQUAKES

What is the story on this and is it true that one can feel light tremors in certain areas frequently? Or is this just limited to uninhabited parts of NZ?
Its quite obvious that housing developments and societies will not be flourishing where quakes are prone to occur. Just thought of adding this to the list as well
:-)

Ken

[buzztalks]

Its quite obvious that housing developments and societies will not be flourishing where quakes are prone to occur.

Ken

Not true. Wellington (the capital city) is built on numerous active faultlines, and last week was all about disaster awareness. We're just waiting for 'the big one' ie a quake of over 8 on the Richter scale.

[BodaciousBean]

Sorry for missing out an important thing to consider - EARTHQUAKES


Its quite obvious that housing developments and societies will not be flourishing where quakes are prone to occur. Just thought of adding this to the list as well
:-)

Ken

Actually if you look on Google Earth, the entire country of NZ is under a fault line, or just about the entire country. It is something to think about but when I think of areas of the USA, they all are prone to disaster. The east coast: hurricanes, New England: Nor'easters: the midwest: blizzards and tornadoes, the west coast: earthquakes, and the southwest is prone to typhoons and dust storms. The USA has a very diverse and volatile weather patterns and turainne (sp). It is just something one has to keep in mind and do the best he/she can to be safe, prepared and smart. Just my two cents. :)

[mylesdw]

80-85K sounds quite good; I guess that's Wellington; Chch might be a bit less. Wellington has higher rates of pay because the Labour government has a huge bureaucracy there. I don't know if you are a Douglas Adams fan but I Wellington is where the B-ship landed :-)

As far as the racism thing goes, Chch has quite a bad reputation but I really don't know if it is deserved or not. Chch is probably more predominantly white than, say, Auckland.

[missy+mrmagoo]

I don't know if you are a Douglas Adams fan but I Wellington is where the B-ship landed :-)

:laugh:laugh

[Sam B]

After nearly 2 years on this forum, I still can't get the hang of using quotes correctly, so I'm just going to have to try to remember what was in your original post.....

Healthcare - cheap as chips in my opinion. I haven't got insurance and apart from paying for GP visits, it all seems to be free. I have been for a heart check up etc and it was great, and free. Wait times seem equivalent to NHS, and I never had insurance there, so why bother here?

um, what's next .... um housing? Yup, many older houses are cold and damp. In fact it's like living in a pretty shed. So if it matters to you (and it did matter to us more than we expected) try to get a new one. Good old insulation, you can't beat it.

um, socialising? Actually we probably do have more immigrant friends than Kiwi friends. This is because Cambridge has a very high proportion of British people in it, plus we have more in common with them. But I also have Kiwi friends, and they're very normal and friendly too. It's not too difficult to fit in.

Can't remember the order now - but racism - yes there is racism. It is different to the UK. It is the pre-PC outspoken ignorant type of racism that was probably seen more circa 1950 in the UK where it is a fear of difference that is openly expressed. I have heard that it is worse in Christchurch but I have absolutely no proof of this at all. It is mainly directed towards 'Asians' and this generally means Chinese/Koreans/Japanese etc. It can be a bit shocking at first. E.g. I heard a radio presenter taking the out of a listener who called in afetr he put the phone down because he had an Indian accent. The idea that you have to repress what you are thinking, or use the right language has not arrived here yet. There are some clunking attempts to redress this on TV. If you are very British in your attitudes, accent and outlook, you may not experience this.

I find it hard to believe the statistic that most British people return to Britain within 5 years. I would say it more like 20%. Most of NZ seems to be British. Many people come here and love it. Some don't. It is defo not Utopia, but it has many good points, and if you are harking back to a more traditional time of community and family values, you may find it here.

It suits us.

[IanW99]

...
I came across a very interesting discussion between people moving from UK to NZ and those already living in NZ. It was an eye opener and made one very important point - Every country has its good and bad points, its highs and lows. The grass is always greener on the other side right???Hmmm...
...
Albiet the beautiful sceneries and peace of mind out in NZ, there are quite a few things lacking. Some of them are
1. Expensive healthcare
2. Most houses not built with central heating - hence damp n cold
3. Night life, or shall I say the friday evening get togethers in NZ - Is it similar to UK?
4. The opportunity to really mix with the locals - or do all expats make their own groups and stick to themselves
5. The noisy cars in the middle of the night and brash youngsters
6. Pay cuts in jobs to just start our careers
7. Expensive holidays and hence not as easy as the UK
8. Is racism and a general ill feeling for migrants growing?
9. Broadband and cable TV - Silly I know but all this counts in the long run
Finally - the choices one has when it comes to supermarkets, DIY stores, fast food, microwaveable food and the likes.
...
I have read some feedback from families who moved to NZ and are genuinely finding it difficult to cope. Most stats do say that most British move back to UK or elsewhere after 5 years.
...


Are you stating that this is a list of things that are lacking with NZ? or are you wanting feedback on what those in NZ think about those items?

If you have some statistics that show that most British leave NZ after 5 years, could you post the source please?

You may want to read Leaving New Zealand (http://www.emigratenz.org/leaving-New-Zealand.html) for some interesting statistics regarding this issue.

Ian

[kenfrapin]

Hi Ian,

Most of the points I have penned down is something I have read about elsewhere and I wanted more information on all the points. We are most definitely moving to NZ mid 2009 so I do want to know true experiences of families who have migrated to NZ. So far, things look fine.

Many people do not balance things out, and end up with a sour taste in their mouth for not getting it all in NZ.
You need money everywhere, bills have to be paid always and so you have to work the same or maybe a little more based on your circumstance. There is no doubt that NZ is a 'better' place to live and enjoy life, and I guess we need to understand the true meaning of this.

NZ definitely gives us the chance to be more close to nature, peace, serenity and open spaces as compared to the chaotic, computerized, commercial and automated life in the UK

Regards
Ken

[kenfrapin]

I read the post Ian.

Are Karen and I the only 'Indians' planning to migrate to NZ :laugh

Thats a freakin joke for sure. Aaah well...We know many of our future English friends are there and the Kiwis are getting ready for us, so thats all that matters :clap

Ha..ha..
Ken

[Moorf]

If you really want to have a look at what some perceive as the dark side of New Zealand you should wade through Expat Exposed (http://www.expatexposed.com) - they're very focused on pointing out NZ negatives including racism, income, housing, the Kiwis, weather, food, coffee, jobs, environment, driving, towns, scenery... you name it, they'll diss it.

[kenfrapin]

Thanks Moorf,

Who would ever want to be part of that community!!! Looks more like a case of blind leading the blind if all they do is moan about NZ :laugh

Pen and paper would not be enough to highlight bad points of ANY country, the beauty is knowing the negatives but working and living with the positives, and thats what I can see with many in this forum. Rater than complain and b17ch about life's niggling worries, they just go about it as they would when in UK and talk about happy thoughts.

Achieving that balance is important and realizing that a country is only as good as its people make it. NZ is liked because of its simplicity and with this simplicity comes the cost of limited luxuries and comforts, so simple right

I will go thru that website for the fun of it and lets see how well the moaners r getting on

:cheers to you all

Ken

[Moorf]

the beauty is knowing the negatives but working and living with the positives,

Oh that's a great way of putting it...

[M-Squared]

Oh that's a great way of putting it...

It sure is, isn't it? :clap

NZ is like a safe, very sparsely-populated England in the 1970s (I turned 12 in 1980). Yep, that's my $0.02 worth. We're bringing up our daugher here, I just wish we'd come here sooner...

[Alex40]

Hi Kenfrapin,

I believe in two points personally.

1. Take a trip to NZ if you can afford it, to have a look yourself. One person's paradise in one city may not suit another.

2. Make your own judgements after this, you can only go on your own instincts, not someone else's.

Good luck with your move, there are plenty of helpful people on this forum!

Mish :nice1

[dharder]

I have never been to NZ but hubby and I are not emigrating there to make a lateral move. We are looking for a simpler, quieter, less fast pace life, where folks understand what is important in life, rather than SUV's, material things and Starbucks.


I’m always a bit puzzled why people (not just on this forum, in general not in NZ) think there are different values at play here in NZ than there are in other countries. From what I experience around me, people are just as materialistic, and have Starbucks, go shopping, drive SUVs (the bigger the better), the children want to have all the latest gadgets. I don’t see any difference in the wishes, wants and aspirations of people than I do in the UK. What they don’t have here are the means to really go for it. The choice NOT to have the very latest gadget version does not seem to be a matter of actively choosing to defy the consumerist and materialistic values of the developed West and hang on to ‘what is really important in life’, it is quite frankly a cash flow issue.

What I used to know as Chelsea Tractors is known here as Remuera Tractors, houses and cars are trying to be just as flash as everywhere else if you can afford it. Same goes for the holidays, I don’t get the feeling that people choose to not go abroad, rather, the finances make that decision for them.

If you move here to find different values, I think you may be disappointed. You may be moving back to a time when a flash mobile was very expensive and only for the really well off, or the holiday abroad out of the reach of most, but what may you won’t find, in my experience, are people who are actively pursuing the idea of a simple life (other than the expats, of course :)).

I'm not really saying that as a negative point about NZ, I didn't really expect a different set of values here.

Daniela

[Moorf]

What you say is true, Daniela, but not true of the entire length and breadth of NZ. In Chch there's all that you mention above. However, there are places you can go to have simple life, and surround yourself with others that do. Not everyone that chooses (deliberate use of word choose) to live a simpler life does so because they can't afford anything different. The people I surround myself with - expats and Kiwis - do hold a different view to, say, those with Remeura tractors - some of us have come from very consumeristic and materialistic backgrounds, too, and it's not a matter of cash flow, it's a matter of choice. Obviously, this doesn't go for everyone, there are definitely those that have no choice, too.

There are, imho, pockets of different values and beliefs and lifestyles all over NZ and so I'd argue that yes, there are people with different sets of values around, the trick is finding your niche. :)

Moorf

[willsken]

What you say is true, Daniela, but not true of the entire length and breadth of NZ. In Chch there's all that you mention above. However, there are places you can go to have simple life, and surround yourself with others that do. Not everyone that chooses (deliberate use of word choose) to live a simpler life does so because they can't afford anything different. The people I surround myself with - expats and Kiwis - do hold a different view to, say, those with Remeura tractors - some of us have come from very consumeristic and materialistic backgrounds, too, and it's not a matter of cash flow, it's a matter of choice. Obviously, this doesn't go for everyone, there are definitely those that have no choice, too. There are, imho, pockets of different values and beliefs and lifestyles all over NZ and so I'd argue that yes, there are people with different sets of values around, the trick is finding your niche. :) Moorf

I go along with this and I’ll give a few small examples of my experience living here. We live in a place where materialistic things in life don't matter. I can't believe how much less I spend on gadgets for all of us, kids included. Matt asked for a new PS game coming out in December, it's only the 2 nd one he's had all year and that's not because we can't afford to buy them. The kids are a lot happier to play for a lot longer periods on the same game. In the UK everyone (his friends) had every game that was released. It was a weekly request.... can I have!

Tom my youngest goes out every evening at the moment with his friends to slide down a hill on a cardboard box. I’m sure from the happy expression on his face, he isn’t resenting the fact he doesn’t have the latest go cart to do it on and neither is it something brought up by any of the mates. Yet, he was a real “I want” in the UK.

The kids at school all seem to have mobiles but do you know, I don’t think I have ever heard them discuss… “I can’t wait to get the new Nokia coming out next month!”

I don't put any importance on clothes..... no one else does in our town! I had a new outfit for every night out in the UK..... just because everyone else would.

I'm not saying all of NZ is like that, I'm talking about the small town in Hawke's Bay we live in. A deliberate choice for us because we desperately wanted out of that materialistic attitude..... and not due to lack of funds either!

I haven’t left all my material roots behind. I have a nice car and will always spend to have a nice car. None of my friends give a fig. Quite happy to drive what they drive.

[dharder]

There are, imho, pockets of different values and beliefs and lifestyles all over NZ and so I'd argue that yes, there are people with different sets of values around, the trick is finding your niche. :)

Yes, absolutely. However, those niches exist in every country, in the UK as well as here. If you wanted to find an intentional community that chose to abstain from the ratrace and consumerism, I'm sure you could find them in the UK just as easily as here (maybe easier?).

There are of course different kinds of people here, just like everywhere else. I just don't get the impression that the set of values generally lived by here is that different from the values in the UK. Again, the suburb I live in is most certainly not representative of NZ, but then, what is ever representative of a whole country?

Daniela

[willsken]

I'm sure you could find them in the UK just as easily as here (maybe easier?).

I'd be interested in a few towns as examples?

There are of course different kinds of people here, just like everywhere else. I just don't get the impression that the set of values generally lived by here is that different from the values in the UK. Again, the suburb I live in is most certainly not representative of NZ, but then, what is ever representative of a whole country?

Daniela

I certainly don't think Auckland or other big cities are anything like the small towns of NZ but I lived in a small town in the UK (not an affluent one either) and the mentality there was still spend like there's no tomorrow and must have bigger better than everyone else!

I understand that there are people in the UK who don't live material lives by choice but imho they don't have the opportunity to be surrounded by many like minded people in their town. That's the feeling I have here and couldn't achieve in the UK.

[Moorf]

As far as I recall (been a while) there were very few places in the UK where you could afford to buy enough land (several acres), with a house, and maintain said property without a fair amount of income to support yourself, pay the rates etc, more so giving up a career and doing so. Of course, not everyone counts having land to grow your own meat/veg and live and work rurally as "the simple life", but that's mine. :) In fact, compared with some we're possibly nowhere near living the true simple life but for us it is.

I personally didn't see any way of living the way we wanted to in the UK without having to continue our careers. Many of my friends found their 'lifestyle' in rural areas but continue to have to commute to a major city to afford it.

So, yes, there are the same pockets of beliefs and values in the UK, whether you can afford to join them is another matter and I personally didn't see/know people living the sort of lifestyles I do here in the UK (among my circle of friends/acquaintances. Perhaps it's just the amount of people here doing it that makes it more obvious, whatever it is, people have and are moving for their perception, rightly or wrongly, that the UK can't offer them that lifestyle.

Are there areas of the UK where 'lifestyle' (whatever THAT means!) blocks are available of 5 - 10 acres? I don't have a clue nowadays, but I don't remember any.

[Moorf]

Maybe the thread title should really be ... 'NZ - How is it really, for you?"

[Potato]

I’m always a bit puzzled why people (not just on this forum, in general not in NZ) think there are different values at play here in NZ than there are in other countries. From what I experience around me, people are just as materialistic, and have Starbucks, go shopping, drive SUVs (the bigger the better), the children want to have all the latest gadgets. I don’t see any difference in the wishes, wants and aspirations of people than I do in the UK. What they don’t have here are the means to really go for it. The choice NOT to have the very latest gadget version does not seem to be a matter of actively choosing to defy the consumerist and materialistic values of the developed West and hang on to ‘what is really important in life’, it is quite frankly a cash flow issue.


I myself have not noticed any difference in materialistic attitudes. In rural areas, yes, it seemed there was less of that, but that's often the case in rural areas in the UK.
I find people in general still want things they cannot afford, and they still buy things they cannot afford, maxing out on credit cards and going into overdrafts.
I think if you move from a UK city to an NZ city the differences you see will be minor. If you move from a UK city to an NZ rural area, the differences of course would be quite significant. But likewise, if you were a Kiwi from Auckland that moved to Scotland's Western Isles.....you would see some pretty big differences in attitudes.

I often feel that the idea of NZ being less materialistic is a case of "say something enough times and people will think it's the truth".
I agree with your statement that people are just as materialistic (from my POV, in a city). They cannot afford the excess to the extent that people in the UK can.....but they can "afford" the excess if they buy everything on credit, which they do.

......

Generalisations are great fun, aren't they? ;)

[Sam B]

Well, I've kind of found what I'm looking for in Cambridge, it is a simpler life, values are a little different, and soon we will have a block of land and lots of space. Cornwall had this to some extent, but not as much.

[Familyofmonkeys]

but I lived in a small town in the UK (not an affluent one either) and the mentality there was still spend like there's no tomorrow and must have bigger better than everyone else!


This was very true for us aswell. We lived in small market town and were surrounded by people who bought a new car every 2-3 years, had to get a bigger widescreen TV, bought all the new release PS games, CD's or DVD's. Most people I knew wouldn't be able to go on a girlie shopping/coffee trip without buying something as the idea of going home empty handed was something they didn't seem to comprehend.

As far as I recall (been a while) there were very few places in the UK where you could afford to buy enough land (several acres), with a house, and maintain said property without a fair amount of income to support yourself, pay the rates etc, more so giving up a career and doing so.

That's the thing isn't it.....anywhere in the UK that can offer thet lifestyle at an afforable price, is only affordable because it is usually so remote there is no work nearby. Fine if you want to spend several hours a day commuting or you are one of the few people who can afford to work from home......but most people don't have those options. In NZ you can afford to have that kind of lifestyle and still be within 30-45 minutes of a major urban area for work, but can also live in an area surrounded by people with similar values. If we'd initiated a conversation with neighbours or friends in UK (however much we cherish them) about compost making for example, we'd have got very odd looks from most of them......but not here :)

[dharder]

I don't doubt the landprices, and that you couldn't find the size of land for the price in the UK at all. But I wasn't referring to that as the 'simple life'. I imagine if the totally rural, far away from everyone lifestyle if for you, then NZ would be the better choice.

I was more referring to the sentiment expressed (and I get this in real life as well, don't just read it on the forum) that somehow here would expect you a simpler life in general, that people aren't interested as much in materialistic things, that you don't have to keep up with the Joneses, that people here have a different value system. That is the part I'm doubting, and I have tried to be rather careful in pointing out that that is what I see around me, what I have experienced here so far.

For me, the test would be to see what happens if things would become more readily available, what would people do then? If, to take the example of the mobile phones, it became part of your mobile contract to get a new flash upgrade once a month at an affordable price, would people say, 'no, I don't need this, my old one makes phone calls just the same'? Sure, there will be some who won't take up the offer, but I doubt that is part of the 'national psyche' and rather a a personal characteristic of the person refusing to upgrade, if that makes any sense.

Anyway. I'm just saying that if you move here because you expect people to know what 'really matters' and have a different set of values to the rest of the 'developed' world, you may not want to go to Sylvia Park on a weekend.

Daniela

[BkyMonster]

Just to weigh in on the direction the thread is taking,
I guess it is busier here than I expected? I was living in a smaller university town in the US. About 50k people full time and 20k students and the largest town in the county and all the city areas I've been to in NZ are much busier than there---as one would expect! There was a 70k person town 20 minutes north and a city maybe about the size of ChCh an hour away and 2 hours a city about the size of Auckland or so. Just to give you an idea of what I am comparing to.
More shopping, traffic and hustle and bustle than I am used to.
Then contrasted with where my grandparents live in California in the Sacramento area and all of Nz cities seem quite relaxed. None of this 12 lane shopping road in all suburbs nonsense (not exaggerating!)

Where I came from it was possible to buy a chunk of land sort of near a city and do a little personal farming for those with good paychecks, though you wouldn't likely have the time. There so far seems to be less advertising push (and reflected on what I see people doing) for brand new everything from cars to houses every few years.
It is also acceptable in NZ to bargain hunt, something that got you a bit of funny looks in the areas I've lived in the US.
I've been considered a bit of an odd duck in the US for simply liking to cook my own food from scratch (not just cookies!) Don't think there is as much push on buying premade prepacked meals. From the people whose homes I have invaded during dinner to pick up a TradeMe item I see a lot of actual cooked meals instead of open a bag and dump it in a pot type cooking.

Anyhow, ramble ramble ramble...

[dharder]

I'd be interested in a few towns as examples?

I was referring to intentional communities, not towns.

And my guess would be that if you have more people (like 60 as opposed ot 4 million), you might have more intentional communities, so more able to find groups of likeminded people, but that was just a guess.

Daniela

[kenfrapin]

This thread is quite busy and a lot of really valuable insights into everyday life in NZ is being brought out to the open.

Summarizing the opinions so far, IMHO, NZ is pretty much materialistic and fast moving if you want it to be and at the same time it is pretty quiet and simplistic if you want it to be.
There are more choices for an individual / family as compared to many other countries. If you want to live in the modern day bustling city life with traffic and time for nothing more, there are big crowded cities to chose from.
And if you want to have a nice life, where you are in control of how time is flying past you, in control of your personal life where you have time to spend around the home and with your kids and OH, then thats definitely possible.

I think more and more families opt for NZ as this choice is freely available. Plus there is lot of room in NZ and one would feel less claustrophobic when buying a nice 4 bed house in a good town. In the town but away from closed society mentality. Could say much more breathing space, with less pressure on following specific society rules and standards? Its a very crude way of putting it :)

The 'luxuries' that are really nothing but things needed to have a comfortable life are easily affordable along with a quiet and peaceful community life. This is what is fast disappearing elsewhere in the world, including many asian countries like India and China ( trust me, I know ). Once a city becomes popular, in come the brands and adverts to buy all the latest gadgets and so on, irrespective if you can aford it or not. A simple example, hosue prices in Bangalore, India's IT capital, have tripled in the last 2 years. We cant even afford a decent 2 bed apptmt anymore there on a mortgage. Bristol, UK too is now suffering the same fate. Few years ago, one could find a decent house in the region of £150,000 but now the same costs around £195,000 ( I am not counting the recent recession and defaults here )

Looks like NZ is growing but it is so at an affordable and sane pace. You want stuff on credit, you can get it, you want to live by yourself without so much consumerism, you can have it so its pretty much a choice of the lifestyle you want that draws one to NZ.

Fair enough, makes us want to move to NZ even quicker now. I just re-read what I wrote and it can mislead anyone to believe I have been in NZ for years now :D
Fingers crossed and hoping for the best!

Regards
Ken

[wilson182]

I agree with your statement that people are just as materialistic (from my POV, in a city). They cannot afford the excess to the extent that people in the UK can.....but they can "afford" the excess if they buy everything on credit, which they do.

......

Generalisations are great fun, aren't they? ;)

Which lets face it, was(is?) exactly the same in the UK I left four years ago. When I left the only way the majority of the people I was around bought most of what they owned was to get it on credit - which is probably why the credit crunch is hitting so hard.

[Sam B]

I think Daniela is right about the consumerism aspect to a certain extent. I don't think Kiwis actively avoid consumerism, they just don't have the same opportunities or money. Other values are different and more simple however.

[M-Squared]

I just don't think they're swayed as much as other societies in the western hemisphere... maybe just what I've observed.

[Moorf]

I don't think anyone here is saying there's no consumerism/materialism here, far from it in some areas, but, as Kenfrapin so eloquently put it (again!), there's more scope to choose your pace, and cost, of life here. :)

I think what gets my hackles up is views that people who opt for a "simpler life" do it because they can't afford any other lifestyle. I also get annoyed by comments such as "say it enough times and you'll believe it", it feels to me that it's saying those of us that DO find their NZ way of life, and perhaps that of the community around us, simpler, less materialist etc are just kidding ourselves...

[sweetpea]

there are big crowded cities to chose from

I would hesitate to say that there are any big crowded cities in New Zealand. The Wellington CBD is probably as urban as you get, and that's not much more than one main street that's a couple km long. To be fair, having big cities would be too much to expect from a country of 4-5 million.

I would have to agree with Daniela and others that NZ as a whole is not necessarily a less consumerist society by choice, but more by inaccessibility (whether related to income or geography).

[Potato]

I also get annoyed by comments such as "say it enough times and you'll believe it", it feels to me that it's saying those of us that DO find their NZ way of life, and perhaps that of the community around us, simpler, less materialist etc are just kidding ourselves...

No, I meant it in a general sense, applied to the country as a whole.

[willsken]

I was referring to intentional communities, not towns.

And my guess would be that if you have more people (like 60 as opposed ot 4 million), you might have more intentional communities, so more able to find groups of likeminded people, but that was just a guess.

Daniela


So, in NZ I can find a town to live in, where in the UK I couldn't. That's exactly my point. Here, for whatever the reason behind it (because rather selfishly I don’t care), I can live in a busy little town, have all the amenities of a town and not have to suffer the in your face consumerism I so objected to in the UK. Perfect! :)

[Alex40]

I agreee with Moorf.

Over here for example, if you wanted to live on a lovely property, you would need to travel 2 hours to work and 2 hours back to afford it. Less choices.

As it is we are 1 hour's travel to the cbd just to afford a normal 4 bedder on 640sq block!

[Bergita]

Even in busy Auckland, they have childrens' playgrounds dotted all over the place. They are clean and safe and if the weather is nice, there are always children playing in them. In South Africa, we would be buying movies and games to entertain our daughter, and go shopping and have lunch out every week-end. Here, just because there is actually the option of playing in a nice, safe park, we do it. We don't go out shopping every week-end because we can go to the park, ride our bikes, visit with the neighbours....

So even though things may be just as rushed and materialistic here as anywhere else, somehow we have changed because our options have expanded. We have choices and opportunities we've never had and we're taking them. Hope that makes sense...

[Kate D]

Hi Ken,

I think your posts have been very measured and reasonable and are deserving of a variety of equally thoughtful responses. So here are mine!

Hello everyone,

My intention with this thread is to understand how life has been, in general, for those who have just moved out to NZ - Community life, surroundings, interaction with locals and even the job hunting and schooling, living expenses. It would help so many of us who are planning to make NZ our home

Albiet the beautiful sceneries and peace of mind out in NZ, there are quite a few things lacking. Some of them are
1. Expensive healthcare
2. Most houses not built with central heating - hence damp n cold
3. Night life, or shall I say the friday evening get togethers in NZ - Is it similar to UK?
4. The opportunity to really mix with the locals - or do all expats make their own groups and stick to themselves
5. The noisy cars in the middle of the night and brash youngsters
6. Pay cuts in jobs to just start our careers
7. Expensive holidays and hence not as easy as the UK
8. Is racism and a general ill feeling for migrants growing?
9. Broadband and cable TV - Silly I know but all this counts in the long run
Finally - the choices one has when it comes to supermarkets, DIY stores, fast food, microwaveable food and the likes.
Regards
Ken


First off, I am atypical in many respects – I came here alone and I didn’t spend months planning and researching it, so family considerations did not apply. I also moved from a lovely small market town of approx 7K people in the middle of the countryside to a “large” city, namely Wellington. I used to spend more than 2 hours a day commuting cross country by car and although I took a 30% reduction in salary to come out here, I’m still well paid by NZ standards. So, to pick upon your points above.

1) I’ve not found it expensive - so far one doctors appointment with a batch of prescriptions for an allergic reaction to some lotion.
2) I have a house with central heating. It’s rare but possible. On the other hand, my power bills are expensive, even by UK standards, and that’s with double glazing for insulation too.
3) Night life here can be as lively or as quiet as you like – loud bars and pubs in town or quite café bards in town or outside. Plenty of choice. But the choice of culture – shows, concerts sports games etc is terrific. I think it’s very affordable too.
4) Mixing – I seemed to have ended up mainly with expats. But that could be because I came here alone and the groups that I joined up with eg tramping club, has got loads of non Kiwis there. Like me, I’m sure that many of them joined such an organisation to meet other people, just that most of those other people are incomers to the city, and many are ex-pats. Incidentally I found exactly the same pattern when I moved in the UK for my first job and when I moved to work in other countries. It’s an integration thing, not an expat thing.
5) Er, I’ve not noticed this. I live in a quite suburb of Wellington though, so not sure if that is typical or atypical!
6) Yes I took a pay cut but I was pretty well paid before and am still by NZ standards. As I currently rent though, I have a greater % of take home salary as disposable income after paying for housing.
7) Yes – compared to a cheaper flight from Heathrow airport to most places, trips here are more expensive. But good deals are possible and for me, it’ll be the opportunity to explore NZ and then Australasia in general anyway. I’ve seen lots of Europe – great places, but plenty of opportunities to explore great places here too. I’m equally at home in a campsite, DoC hut, backpackers hotel or smart hotel so I can be flexible. It’s not just about money – it’s about the experience.
8) I haven’t found this. I work in a company with lots of immigrants of different nationalities. From what I can tell, most of my friends (Kiwi and local) work in professions/companies where there are also lost of immigrants form various countries. Having worked in London, I personally like that kind of diversity anyway.
9) I have broadband – it’s of variable speed some times but plenty adequate for the needs of an average surfer such as myself. Cable – I don’t use it and don’t know if my area has it. I’m without Sky and the likes by choice so not best placed to comment on that.
10) I find supermarkets such as New World to be much better than I expected based on some comments here. I think the fresh fruit and veg selection is great. There are also a fair number of speciality shops (Dutch, Indian, South African, Asian, etc) if you want more specialised ingredients in Wellington, and I presume at least Auckland and probably Christchurch too – bigger populations can support them. But the price of cheese even by my standards makes me swallow hard sometimes! Fast food for me is not a problem - lots of choices:D I’ve discovered Mitre 10 Mega which is the closest equivalent to a B&Q superstore (including the colours!) and I think it’s great. Ok, that’s sad I know, but there we have it. Microwaveable meals are limited but things produced by Wishbone and Pitango are very good, although quite pricey for what they are.

I commute less so on the nights when I’m not eating out before meeting people/hobbies etc I am cooking more meals from scratch. When I used to get home at 8pm in the UK, I hardly had the energy or the inclination unless it was microwavable. Here I can go back to basics again if I want to, and am enjoying doing so on many occasions. However, I also find the average eating out place here to be very good value for money as in curries, pizza, noodles etc.

I was initially hesitant about moving to a big city again, but I love Wellington. It doesn’t feel big yet it has all of the amenities whilst still retaining loads of green spaces. I’ve been to Auckland on business a few times now, and it just feels so big compared to Welly now. And not nice big, just big. Sorry Aucklanders! I’ve worked in London before and Reading in the UK both of which I commuted to and hated the experience. I’ve also lived in Munich and Zurich which I loved, and Rome which I just got on with. So it’s not a big city thing, it’s a time to spare thing.

So why did I come here? “Lifestyle” I guess. But for me that means the time (and the means) to do the stuff I want to do, and to have fun. To explore this beautiful country, get out into nature and experience it all on my doorstep. I may not be compromising that much on eating out or a nice car, or the ability to buy clothes (funnily enough all sports gear!) or the desire for an interesting and challenging job, but I if I give you an example of my weekend just gone you might see my point. Friday I came straight from the airport to meet a friend in town for drinks and dinner and it took me 20mins to drive there. Saturday I went tramping on the hills above Wellington, starting 5 mins drive from my house. I went to a show in central Welly that night. Sunday I went sailing in the morning and then to a golf driving range in the afternoon, then watched the sunset over the Tasman Sea with dinner that evening. Not one of those was more than a 20 minute drive from my house. NZ has given me choices and enough energy, time and money to take up as many or as little as I want to. That for me has been worth every bit of it. Whether that stacks up for everyone else is a personal conclusion.

And in the morning when I open the curtains and find the view of the harbour staggeringly beautiful and different every day, I still smile after six months:)

Oops – sorry this has been so long…

Kate

[kenfrapin]

Kate,

Brilliant and detailed reply to all the initial questions i had asked...thanks a ton.....

Cheers
Ken

[Will_2007]

Hi Ken,

We've been here six months now and are really enjoying it. I'll try to answer your questions first then start rambling on about other stuff...

1. Expensive healthcare
I've not noticed it because I've not had to use it much. I had a trip to the doc with a blocked ear, which cost $34 (standard charge for the docs, more or less). Can't help with other medical costs, sorry...
2. Most houses not built with central heating - hence damp n cold
True, most houses don't have central heating, but that doesn't make them damp or cold. There are some really bad cases of shoddy building, I think 80's and early 90's houses in particular due to a lack of regulation, which have led to lots of houses of that era developing damp problems, but houses before and since then are usually ok. Ours is a 1960's house built from concrete blocks and has no damp problems at all. Kiwis do tend to like aluminium door and window frames, which have a tendency to get a lot of condensation on cold nights, but most will have a tiny gutter and drain at the bottom to get rid of any excess water. We had a wood burner put in, which is quite pricey at first but we can get free wood, so ongoing costs are just an annual sweep. Heat pumps are quite popular, which are basically air-con units. They are apparently quite cheap to run and have the benefit of giving cool air in the summer too (we just open the windows!).
3. Night life, or shall I say the friday evening get togethers in NZ - Is it similar to UK?
If you want loud bars open until 4am, you'll find them here. Similarly you can expect to have a regular friday night drink with your colleagues, a lot of places will have a beer fridge and will down-tools at 4.30 on Friday for a wind-down beer.
4. The opportunity to really mix with the locals - or do all expats make their own groups and stick to themselves
This is the same as anywhere, really - you'll get out what you put in. I don't see the point in coming out here with a "I'm not going to be friends with anyone who's not Kiwi" attitude, which some people seem to have - not you, I hasten to add!! I have Kiwi friends, South African friends, Brit friends (some of whom I know from the UK - actually some of the Kiwis are friends from the UK too!)... basically the same sort of mix I had in the UK. Making friends with a Kiwi is no different to making friends with an ex-pat really.
5. The noisy cars in the middle of the night and brash youngsters
I've not noticed it at night, but Kiwi lads do like to put huge baked-bean tin exhausts on and cruise round... so no different to the UK in many ways! And kids here are like kids in the UK for the most part.
6. Pay cuts in jobs to just start our careers
We both took a 50% pay cut if you convert £ to $, but it doesn't really work to just convert like that. Our quality of life is no different in a materialistic sense - we still have a nice car, eat well, can afford new clothes/CDs/etc can go on holiday etc - but now live by the beach, have better weather, have the ski fields a 3-hour drive away... quality of life is way better :)
7. Expensive holidays and hence not as easy as the UK
In the UK, a trip to Europe is cheap, a trip to Oz or NZ is expensive. Here, a trip to Oz or Samoa is cheap, a trip to Europe is expensive. Travel is probably slightly more expensive, relatively, than in the UK, but then NZ miles away from anywhere. If you shop around you will get bargains.
8. Is racism and a general ill feeling for migrants growing?
I've not experienced any racism at all, apart from overhearing one comment from an older, white Kiwi, who made some disparaging remarks about Maori, but even that was really aimed at legislation which he perceived gave Maori more rights than 'European' Kiwis.
9. Broadband and cable TV - Silly I know but all this counts in the long run
Broadband is quite pricey, you pay for bandwidth and speed over here rather than just speed like in the UK. Quality depends on where you are, and it's all ADSL unless you're in Auckland or Welly I think. You can still get about 5 TV channels through an old analogue aerial, or a freeview box is a one-off $100 or so and gives you more channels. The other alternative is Sky, which starts at about $50 a month for the basic package, Sports is an extra $20, movies $30.

Generally we find that people are more active in their spare time. Loads of people are into fishing and sailing, and doing sport at a social level seems to be the norm rather than the exception like in the UK.

Hope that helps...

Will

[kenfrapin]

Thanks a ton Will, that does help a lot. Have been busy most of last week surfing the net and hunting possible opportunities in NZ
Slim pickings sitting out here in the UK BUT luckily I have a particular skill that many NZ companies are looking out for, so lets see.

The NZ Expo was really good, and I will post a detailed summary of the events at the expo. It was good and informative, and has made us even more happy and sure of our move to NZ :clap

Cheers
Ken

[victoria24]

I did look out for you yesterday Ken from your description but couldnt spot you. We thought it was very useful also.

[kenfrapin]

Ha ha...it was indeed quite busy on Saturday. Well we were there by 10 and left by 2.

Personally for Karen and me, I would say the Expo was useful in context to understanding more on the type of opportunities and lifestyle/living options. I was surprised by the Pegasus township and the details we got there. Quite nice indeed!
Experience at the Expo is a personal matter only. They had put up fantastic stalls and there was a lot of information available. Movers, banks, property, consultants and jobs galore I must say. Even one stall to help you take you beloved pets to NZ as well!

Loads of opportunities for core Engineering positions - Architects and a host of jobs in the Construction field, so many stalls in the Health and Medicine sector and lots of trade openings. So all in all it was good.

Since we are pretty young and not tied to too many things in the UK, most services were of not much use to us.
For me, it was only IBM who were there this year, apparently last time Telecom NZ also participated. Lets see how things go. It was definitely a very nice and informative experience for us at the Expo 2008 so its 3 :cheers from us

Till later...
Ken

[mylesdw]

I was surprised by the Pegasus township and the details we got there. Quite nice indeed!

The reality of Pegasus is nothing like the artist's impressions. Search the forum and you'll find more info...

[canajanz]

Lastly, slightly off the topic, if I were given a job offer for about 80 to 85 k per year, should I go for it? Something's around the corner so thought of checking this out. Of course, OH would also work in time, and without kids in the picture, I feel its an ok figure just to get things moving in our plans of a home in NZ. What say? CheersKen

If someone offered ME that salary i would certainly take it .. quickly !

The average salary is hovering around $30k
People raise families on that