[MaryM]

Hi all,
We are arriving in early Jan and planning on living in Rangiora. We have 4 young children. I have the eldest (5 year old) pre-enrolled for Feb in a primary school but I also have a 4 year old and the next will be 3 in June.
I have recently become aware of the free preschool hours for 3 and 4 year olds in NZ. Here (in Ireland) I pay to send the 4 year old to a local Montessori for 3 hours a day and, if we were not moving, would be sending the 2 year old there when she turns 3.
My question really is - is the preschool/kindergarden a good set up for the little ones both socially and to teach them the basics of numbers, letters etc. I have been in touch with the local Kidsfirst facilities in Rangiora and my concern was the number of children per session - 45 to 3 teachers, at the moment they have 8:1 in the montessori school?
What do you think? Is this a good option or should I start looking for a private (paying) montessori for the 4 year old in preparation for school?
Any advice would be welcome as I reckon I will need to put my name down for either option well in advance.
Thanks,
Mary

[jubjub]

If you are willing to pay then you should be able to find a private kindy that has a higher ratio, if that is important to you.

My sons kindy has a ratio of 1:5, but it is privately run and will not offer the 20 free hours ECE, so we will just have to keep paying for it! or move him into the public kindy...

There are waiting lists, particularly for the kindys that offer the 20 free hours...

[dharder]

My question really is - is the preschool/kindergarden a good set up for the little ones both socially and to teach them the basics of numbers, letters etc. I have been in touch with the local Kidsfirst facilities in Rangiora and my concern was the number of children per session - 45 to 3 teachers,

Depends on what you want, and why you want it, I'd say. The ratio sounds about like we had here for kindergarten. But they didn't really teach anything, no numbers or letters. They kids had two slots of mat time, but apart from that, just roamed around and had free playtime, totally unstructured. I found the supervision somewhat lacking with the existing ratio, and if you have a very shy child, it may be difficult for them. It did seem a bit like a 'survival of the fittest' type setting, in part due to the very casual supervision.

All in all, I wasn't terribly impressed with the kindergarten here (compared to our London nursery, state school attached to primary school which was excellently run). However, my girls started school last week, and out of the 10 kids in their class, 8 of them knew each other because they went to kindy together.

From the social aspect, I think it has definitely beneficial. One little girl didn't know anyone, she'd been to a different daycare setting, and the first week must have been really hard for her.

So I guess from my personal experience, "academically", the kindergarten provided nothing, but the girls had a good time and started school with a strong social network. At their age, for me that counts for more than knowing numbers and letters.

Daniela

[marcia]

Another option if you want to get involved with your childrens education, would be Playcentre - try this link to get an idea of what Playcentre is about and see if theres one in the area you're looking at.

http://www.playcentre.org.nz/


They have low ratios, 1 to 5, but there are usually more adults around anyway becasue parents stay with children under who are under 2.5.

You will also be able to do courses and learn more about how children learn, and the stages they go through.

I hadn't heard of it before we came to New Zealand but have found it fantastic for us, as it gave me (stay at home mum) a chance to meet other mums and make new friends - (whereas if we'd gone to Kindy it would have been a quick hello at pick up and drop off to the other mums, and i wouldn't have really got to know people as well!)

Anyway good luck whatever option you decide to choose. :)

[Familyofmonkeys]

The ratio sounds about like we had here for kindergarten. But they didn't really teach anything, no numbers or letters. They kids had two slots of mat time, but apart from that, just roamed around and had free playtime, totally unstructured. I found the supervision somewhat lacking with the existing ratio, and if you have a very shy child, it may be difficult for them.

Same here......the 45 kids to 3 adults in the standard ration, although there are usually parent volunteers in addition to this. Kindy here doesn't 'teach' anything in the sense we were used to from UK pre-school.......they have a philisophy of learning through play and the children have access to a much wider range of activities and play equipment than we were used to from UK.

I think Daniela's comment about shy children is very valid. My daughter (now 5) is very shy and although she was happy being left at kindy because she's not clingy she didn't really thrive as she requires more adult ineraction than they were able to give her. Being very 'bookish' she would rather spend her time reading, drawing, writing stories etc but we found kindy didn't offer these kind of activities as there is the expectation that children won't be able to read until they go to school. We looked round a few different kindys and this was the same in all of them. On the other hand my older son (3 1/2) thrives at kindy....he is extremely outgoing and enjoys hands on learning experiences so kindy is exactly what he needs as a person.

Also remember that the 20 hours free doesn't mean it will be totally free. We pay a compulsory 'donation' of 50c per hour and they kindy have to raise an additional 25c per child per hour just to cover their costs....let alone buy any new stuff. We also found some of the private kindys that were offering 20 hours free would only offer it to full time children. We have 2 Kindercares very close to us ( http://www.kindercare.co.nz/ ) and they initially opted out of the 20 hours free. Once they started it, they stopped doing half days or sessions entirely to new children and they only offer 4 hours (of the 20 free hours) per day and you can no longer enroll for less than 2 full days.

[peebles16]

We live in Rangiora and our youngest attends five morning sessions at one of the Kidfirst kindys and it's certainly different from nursery in the UK. The ratio is indeed 3 teachers to 45 kids which is too few I think but they often have student teachers and parent helpers around.

There are a couple of pre-school centres that do offer 20 ECE hours but most having waiting lists. Also some ABC Learning centres again privately run and don't think they have the 20 hours. I think for Montessori your nearest option may be Christchurch but don't quote me on that....

I wouldn't say I was too impressed with the kindy set-up, as Daniela says, not a lot of structure or academic input and although there are lots of activities on offer the children are left to choose what they want to do with the exception of mat time. My son will play all day every day outside climbing/sandpits/jungle gym etc and do feel that he would really benefit from more structure and more inside time but at the minute kindy is the only option available to us. On the plus side it seems that the kindy staff are older (unlike the just past teenagers that looked after him in nursery :o ) and they do seem to know the children well :yes

If you need any further details about other pre-schools etc give me a shout and I'll try to look out some details but if I were you I'd get on as many waiting lists as possible :yes

HTH

Karenx

[Kerry and David]

I have just got my son in to the private Kindy here for two afternoons and they also have better ratios 1:7. They do offer the free hours but as others have mentioned it is not free, we just get a reduced hourly rate ( still expensive compared to the free sessions he was getting in the UK!).

I chose to do just two sessions as it is the 'older kids' sessions so hopefully he will mix and meet other kids his own age.

In addition to this I do Playcentre for two mornings (as Marcia mentioned above) which has been a great way for my son and I to meet other people in the community.

The mix of the two means that he still has his independance (he was used to doing pre-school so wanted to carry on with him going somewhere without me in preperation for school) but we also have alot of fun together at the Playcentre.

Good luck.

[thewoodies]

I have just read this with great interest , i didnt know about the kindys teacher ratio? I think the play centre sounds good . Now im worried as my three year old has already started pre school at the private school where i have been working - its great , she is also bookish and is very able to learn - i am now worried she will get bored and fall behind - looks like i will have to teach her myself? The play centre idea could tie in ? Perhaps not returning to work until they both start school will be for the best?

[JandM]

http://www.giftedchildren.org.nz/links.php

This may be of some help, depending on exactly what your child is like. I am hearing good things of the Small Poppies organization mentioned near the bottom of the page, which our grandson is attending.

[sizzlingbadger]

We love the kindy set up here, so different from the UK and based on what kids need at that age - social interaction and play - they're kids after all and learning can be done when they get to school.

Our local kindy has 45 kids to three full time teachers, 2 teacher aides, and a parent help, also special needs teachers are often around. The kids get a lot of interaction with the teachers when they need it.

All three of mine have been through kindy here and have gone on to school with no problems at all. In fact I think it's done them a lot of good in some ways, they haven't been pushed in to being told to read and write until they got to school. I'm no slack parent by any means, my daughter could hold an adult conversation at 12 months and she's in to her books and drawing which kindy helped with even more. She's now at school and doing better than ever, half a year at least above her age group. My eldest boy despite not being able to read when he started school (he's nearly 8 now) has a reading age of an 11 year old, something we never thought he was capable.

I have my youngest starting school in February and he started kindy back when he was 3. He seems to have got the most out of it and is very social, most of the kids he's friends with are going to be in the same class, think about 8 of them all start within the month :D

I would wait until you come over and visit the local kindy, it's pretty impossible to see how things work, I wouldn't go on ratios either as all the kids seem to get time with the teacher at some stage or other with the way activities are set out :nice1

[dharder]

i am now worried she will get bored and fall behind -

I really wouldn't worry about it. Have a look around, see what it feels like, and then decide. It's not as if they'd stop the children from reading or learning, so I don't see why a child interested in it shouldn't be able to read if she likes to.

I know there are some children who either get taught at home, or do other preliteracy activities after kindy, but personally, I have never thought it necessary to teach them reading or writing before they start school.

Really, I wouldn't sweat it :)

Daniela

[MaryM]

Wow thanks to you all for all that information. I have been so concerned about getting my 5 year old daughter into school that I did not have much information on preschool.

At the moment, and certainly for a period after we move, I am a stay at home mother so I am not looking for full day childcare. I have seen the social/confidence benefits for my daughter and son attending the montessori and that is what I would like to continue for the younger ones. The academic side is not that important to me, my daughter was certainly not reading when she started school after 2 years of montessori but she had learned lots of different things - most of which I discover with amazement at some unexpected moment and she had the basics of counting and some letters. What was important was that she was really shy and sensitive and needed to get used to mixing with other children and being without me. It was much easier on her, and her brother following her, that the ratios were small and they felt close to the teacher.

As the older boy is more outgoing, the kindergarden may suit him for the 6 months until he starts school but I hope the number of children around would not overwhelm him. As for my little girl who is 2 and a half, I like the sound of the Playcentres as I would be around to help and could take the baby too. I will definitely look into that further.

I will look up Kindercare and ABC (Karen) and if you know if any other good private preschools in Rangiora I will try to contact them too. But at least I have a better idea now of what is possible and can start to plan a bit better.

Thanks again,
Mary

[Familyofmonkeys]

http://www.giftedchildren.org.nz/links.php

This may be of some help, depending on exactly what your child is like. I am hearing good things of the Small Poppies organization mentioned near the bottom of the page, which our grandson is attending.

Would be interested in hearing more about Small Poppies. Our Plunkett nurse has several times recommended both my older two get involved in small poppies and gave me some contact details. But.....they have told us both children would need to have a psychological assessment first and we really can't afford that unless we would get something very worthwhile out of it. Am I right in thinking it is only for children 6 and under?

[JandM]

Would be interested in hearing more about Small Poppies. Our Plunkett nurse has several times recommended both my older two get involved in small poppies and gave me some contact details. But.....they have told us both children would need to have a psychological assessment first and we really can't afford that unless we would get something very worthwhile out of it. Am I right in thinking it is only for children 6 and under?http://www.georgeparkyncentre.org/smallpoppies.html

Last question first - yes, I think so. But as you'll see, on this link page, there's mention of One Day School which children can go on into afterwards if wanted/useful (and it's recognized by the authorities, so the regular schools count ODS attenders as 'present' on those days).

My d-i-l says that the Small Poppies sessions are each about different topics that normally wouldn't be aired with children of this age-range, the thinking being that there's no telling what will interest and engage somebody who's outside the normal range. They MAY have met with 'their' things in the context of the family, or on the other hand, there could be something they will take up that no-one in their environment knows anything about. Or both. Apparently, our lad sometimes looks fascinated with what's going on, and other times he doesn't seem to be taking much notice, but quite often, even after the 'no notice' sessions, several days later he'll come out with a question or a thought that shows he's been thinking over what was said and done. Things turn up in his drawing and painting, too.

I don't know about the requirement for a psychological assessment before joining. A's kindy asked for him to be assessed last year, with the teacher not being sure what to make of him on various matters. In between this being requested and happening, it turned out that he had glue ear, so some of the issues proved to be that he hadn't heard what was going on. But one of the teacher's main complaints was that he wasn't taking an interest in this and that, and talking to the psychologist, he said no, it wasn't very interesting doing x and y like they did them at kindy, because he already knew that and could do it. (The kindy don't really seem to want to have anything to do with him thinking outside the box.) So there already was this assessment. I know the parents also had to fill in a quite searching form about the child in relation to the family background.

[melly]

As far as child/teacher ratios go, the kindy ratio is about the same as what it will be when they get into the classroom at school. So seeing kindy is suppose to be a step towards getting the kids ready for school I thought this would be good. I think kids who are used to a much smaller ratio might feel like they aren't getting enough attention from their classroom teacher and also won't be a used to self-directing their learning (which is required to a certain extent when they get to school) as they are used to having a a greater amount of teacher input.

[dharder]

But.....they have told us both children would need to have a psychological assessment first and we really can't afford that unless we would get something very worthwhile out of it.

As a caveat, I’d like to say that I’m rather ambivalent about this whole ‘gifted and talented’ labelling business, but here are my thoughts anyway.

If you really need to pay for a psychological assessment for the playgroup, I wouldn’t do it.

The whole testing area is rather debatable anyway, but the younger they are, the less reliable are the tests. If you have to pay $500 just to be in a slightly more selective playgroup, I’d find that a bit steep. If they just talk to your kids and then decide without the assessment, then why not, it won’t hurt, I’m sure.

Unless you have a child genius on your hands, I don’t think that there is a lot at this stage that your regular, ‘normal’ environment combined with parental support couldn’t provide.

If all’s going well as it is, no issues in kindy/school/playgroups, then I think the added value of a ‘special’ playgroup isn’t going to be that high. If you have any worries, and things are currently not going well, then looking into this might help support you or your child.

Daniela

[Familyofmonkeys]

The whole testing area is rather debatable anyway, but the younger they are, the less reliable are the tests. If you have to pay $500 just to be in a slightly more selective playgroup, I’d find that a bit steep. If they just talk to your kids and then decide without the assessment, then why not, it won’t hurt, I’m sure.


This is pretty much what we were thinking and the reason we didn't persue it any further for my daughter....she was only in kindy 3 months in the end and now she is in school. Still had a few 'issues' we needed to sort out but now she's doing extension projects and for example was allowed to spend today at home working on an entomology project rather than attempting to fit it into the classroom routines which works well as she gets an extended period of time to focus on a particular topic. This is one of the things that was appealing about small poppies.....


My d-i-l says that the Small Poppies sessions are each about different topics that normally wouldn't be aired with children of this age-range, the thinking being that there's no telling what will interest and engage somebody who's outside the normal range. They MAY have met with 'their' things in the context of the family, or on the other hand, there could be something they will take up that no-one in their environment knows anything about.



I know the parents also had to fill in a quite searching form about the child in relation to the family background.

You're not kidding there. Our Plunkett Nurse gave us one of the forms to fill in and they want to know everything from your kids sleep patterns, attention span, manual dexterity etc. She seemed to think it would do my son some good (but for different reasons to my daughter) because kindy doesn't tire him out, he doesn't sleep much and doesn't sit still......it has taken nearly 5 months to get him to actually sit with the other children for mat time at kindy. We don't really know what to make of it all, but it's nice to hear other peoples perspectives :)


See to have deviated from the purpose of this thread a bit here, but I suppose this shows that there are lots of options for preschool education here is NZ and it's just a case of finding the right one for your childrens personality.

[marcia]

As far as child/teacher ratios go, the kindy ratio is about the same as what it will be when they get into the classroom at school. So seeing kindy is suppose to be a step towards getting the kids ready for school I thought this would be good. I think kids who are used to a much smaller ratio might feel like they aren't getting enough attention from their classroom teacher and also won't be a used to self-directing their learning (which is required to a certain extent when they get to school) as they are used to having a a greater amount of teacher input.

Wish I could have a face to face conversation about your post - as I'm sure it would be easier than trying to explain in words on a computer screen my opinion on this. Please do not take offence or think I'm belittling you - just another perspective on this. :)

Don't you think we push kids into 'getting ready' for school too early?I've heard this said a lot about kids going to kindy - 'they learn to sit on a mat' why do they need to practise sitting on the mat? (They'll be doing it for a long enough time anyway) - and they will in most cases just do this as part of their new rountine when they get to school. Kids should be free no matter what age to self direct their learning to a certain extent (obviously older kids have to do certain things at set times) young childrens interests should be supported and extended, we shouldn't be telling them at a young age 'today we're playing shops' they should be free to choose what they want to play that day and if they want to spend the whole term sawing pieces of wood - let them - they are persueing their own particular 'schema'. The adults who are are with these children shouldn't be directing their play but supporting them, talking to them about what they are doing and offering suggestions to extend or revisit at a later date. The higher ratios of adult:child at a younger age mean there will always be adults around to help the kids with their learning and social skills, intervening and offering suggestions of what to say when disagreements occur.

I have learnt a lot and changed my view on how children learn since coming to New Zealand, a lot of that is to to do with the wonderful supervisor we have at our Early Childhood Centre, and also the parent education programme which is offered, we never stop learning no matter how old we are!

You know your own children best and will know what type of centre will suit you and your family most - theres no right or wrong answer you just have to do some visits and research, then decide.

Good luck! :)

[melly]

Wish I could have a face to face conversation about your post - as I'm sure it would be easier than trying to explain in words on a computer screen my opinion on this. Please do not take offence or think I'm belittling you - just another perspective on this. :)

Don't you think we push kids into 'getting ready' for school too early?


No offence taken, but thought I'd clarify what I mean by 'getting ready' for school.
I think what I meant was Kindy meets the needs of a certain developmental stage for kids between toddlerdom and school child (please also note I'm really talking about the 3-4yr old kindy kids, not the 2yr olds). This is the stage for intense social development including learning about self-control, conflict management, communication skills to name a few. I'm not saying that this stuff can't be learnt at home, but kindy gives different experiences to learn this stuff from. It is only because they learn these social skills at kindy age that they are ready to move on to school where they can focus more on intellectual development (literacy and numeracy). If kids didn't have the skills to sit quietly when required etc. (which have to be learnt somewhere), when they start school they wouldn't be learning much intellectually as the teacher would be totally focused on behaviour management. I totally agree that kindy should be play-based learning, but it still needs to meet the developmental needs of the kids.

[marcia]

Melly my son is almost 5 and will be starting school next Feb - so I'm not referring to the younger children.

At the centre we go to they don't have 'carpet time' or focus or any particular 'skill' to help prepare for school, (the kids are learning these skills throughout their early childhood education at the centre) however we have visits to schools when any child is leaving and the kids from the 'big kids' session all go along. I've been on a couple of these visit with the group already and none of the children have had a problem sitting on the carpet, putting up their hands to answer questions etc.

All I was trying to say really was they don't (IMHO) need to focus on these things prior to going to school, if they have been in a supportive environment and they are given the social skills, such as, turn taking, have the ability to communicate effective, and listen to what others say - then once they get into school they will follow the rountines easily.

I can't really comment on what goes on in Kindys from experience, I'm just going on what other Kindy mums tell me goes on.

When we moved here I looked at the both the Kindy and Playcentre and choose Playcentre for a few reasons - the excellent ratios, the fact that they involve and educate the parents and the parents run the centre and have a say in what goes on - which meant I met and made good friendships from spending time there. I've been there now for almost 2 years and I've really learnt so much more about the way children learn and how 'neat' and clever young kids really are - I certainly wouldn't have got that from just dropping my son at Kindy and doing the occasional rota duty.

Again I will say its all down to personal choice - my older two went to Playgroups and Nursery's in the UK, which were very different experiences to those my youngest has had here - he's never been asked to sit down and write his name as an exercise, or write the numbers 1- 10 for his 'special folder' - he just does them when he's interested in doing them - writing his own name on his artwork, or chalking numbers outside for racing games, its all part of his days play - not a set thing that he has to do when the carers say, which surely means he will enjoy his learning better when he is the one choosing to do a particular thing.

Anyway I'm rambling :D - One last thing - for us Playcentre has been the best experience - its unique to New Zealand and pretty cool IMHO! :nice1

[JandM]

Talking about the Small Poppies admission. You're not kidding there. Our Plunkett Nurse gave us one of the forms to fill in and they want to know everything from your kids sleep patterns, attention span, manual dexterity etc. She seemed to think it would do my son some good (but for different reasons to my daughter) because kindy doesn't tire him out, he doesn't sleep much and doesn't sit still......it has taken nearly 5 months to get him to actually sit with the other children for mat time at kindy. We don't really know what to make of it all, but it's nice to hear other peoples perspectives :)
I've asked my son a bit more about this. He said that the psychological assessment A had because kindy referred him didn't count anything towards Small Poppies, BUT that it was the education authority psychologist, who did a session in kindy and one at home with him, recommended them to go to Small Poppies because of what she found. (As with your Plunket nurses picking up signs and making the suggestion.) About the Small Poppies pre-assessment, my son said, 'It’s conducted by their in-house person and costs $40 which is for a two hour session (interview by means of guided play etc.).'

[Familyofmonkeys]

Talking about the Small Poppies admission.
I've asked my son a bit more about this. He said that the psychological assessment A had because kindy referred him didn't count anything towards Small Poppies, BUT that it was the education authority psychologist, who did a session in kindy and one at home with him, recommended them to go to Small Poppies because of what she found. (As with your Plunket nurses picking up signs and making the suggestion.) About the Small Poppies pre-assessment, my son said, 'It’s conducted by their in-house person and costs $40 which is for a two hour session (interview by means of guided play etc.).'

That is a lot cheaper than we were led to believe :nice1

[Alex40]

Hi Marcia,

I am here to say as a kindy teacher and a mother of two girls, 8 and 11 next year, that I agree with you 100%.

I totally believe in allowing them to be kids, neither of mine could read or write before they started, and they both started school at 5.5 years, (although I taught them to recognise their names for their school bags, lunchboxes etc).

I still don't do too many after school activities, encouraging them to get out and use the trampoline, and play with the dog.

And both of them are right on track these days with their reading, literacy and numeracy.

Let them play and learn to socialise at preschool/daycare, they all do adjust to the routine when they go to school.:cheers

[thewoodies]

This thread led to a BIG discussion with my mother and baby friends and OH.(UK) The private school wants an hours homework a night from the 5 year olds(apparently) one mum has been in trouble for not doing it - but her kid is too tired!!!DD2 is in the kindergarten/pre school there. I believe (as a mum and teacher - that this is over the top?) However not doing any work at all worries me - at first....... then i re think outside the UK box?

If a child is bright like DD2 the she will discover the maths and geography etc through play. (I can also back it up at home) OH had bad reports at school as he became disruptive as bored as he could easily do the work and finished quickly - therefore if we push her too early in NZ she will repeat the same pattern of behaviour when she starts school if she is too ahead ( unless we stick with the private route which is a massive long term financial commtment ) .

I went to school in Fiji when i was a small child and was taught the NZ system and had a NZ teacher - I loved school and thrived we played maths games so much fun and painted for history/geography loads of outside play and experiences etc it was a happy time.......

I am thinking its better for out DD2 to be like the rest and go to kindy and playcentre with kids she will be going to school with and hopefully the learning will come from within and be self motivated

Unlike 17 yr old DD1 who had to be pressured , bribed and argued with to do anything and still didn't do home work etc.....:exit

Any way those are my thoughts today but will probably change tomorrow as its so hard to know if you are getting it right.:confused:

[JandM]

I was also a teacher, as well as being Mum and now Granny. From having seen thousands of children go through my hands, my feeling is that there isn't one pattern of upbringing and education that best fits all children. All you can do as a parent is your best with those who happen to have arrived as your own ones. See what they're like, and what there is around that will best fit them.

Back in the days when I did my training, the thinking was that a teacher had responsibility for knowing the child development patterns - the 'norms', and the most common deviations from them - and the means of evaluating how far each child in their class was, along those routes. Then it was your responsibility to take EACH and EVERY child as far forward as you could in the time you had them. That applied just as much to the brilliantly gifted as to the middle-of-the-group as to the child who hadn't got anywhere much. That made the job a huge challenge, but also, when done anywhere near right, worked out well for the children. Central government didn't decide what children should learn - the schools did, bearing in mind their neighbourhood and what kind of children came to them. However, of more recent times, individual responsibility has pretty much gone, and there's a one-size-fits-all programme - only, it doesn't.

I think it very sad that a child who is genuinely interested in whatever activity should be held back from doing it when he wants to because he's not supposed to know that yet. In the scheme I started out under, if you found that Johnny was already able to e.g. do joined up writing, and that was what you were about to teach the class, you would give Johnny a different task to do that would use his ability and develop it. Maybe he could be making labels for things on the walls, or he could help show some of his classmates certain letter-forms, and work with them on those. If your class was about to do the Geography of India, and Mary had done a scrapbook about it in the holidays with her aunt who'd just come back from there, you'd get more materials from the library, and ask her to find out more about some aspect of it that would be new to her but would contribute to the class project. And so on.

Anyway, that was then.

I think an hour's homework at age 5 is ridiculous. I think it's reasonable to ask for some regular follow-up of class work - finishing off, or practice of a skill learnt in class, or necessary learning by heart of tables or spellings, say - from about age 7, gradually building up to secondary needs. But the teacher has to take into account the differences in how children can manage on their own, and that some don't have as much energy while they're growing. Also, families need time for their out of school lives - things they might do together, or activities (maybe classes) that follow up the child's own interests - so no school, not even at secondary age, should be thinking they've got the right to impose work to fill all the waking hours.

[mylesdw]

Anyway, that was then.

I think an hour's homework at age 5 is ridiculous.



Thanks, I enjoyed your thoughts. The education system seems to be well and truly off the rails. I go to my children's parent evenings and the teachers stand up and talk complete twaddle! You really wouldn't know they were talking about teaching at all. The best way to judge a new school is to ask whether they have a mission statement. If they have, it means they are completely devoid of original thought and should be avoided.

The amount of work they give out is huge, especially to the younger ones; I feel sorry for my kids. When I was at school:

- I NEVER had homework at primary school.
- At secondary school we had 8 weeks holiday in the summer, 4 weeks at Christmas, 4 weeks at easter AND 2 one week breaks (half-term) and a long weekend in the easter term.
- At secondary school we did NO school work in the afternoons on Tue/Wed/Thur, that was for sports.

[Familyofmonkeys]

I think it very sad that a child who is genuinely interested in whatever activity should be held back from doing it when he wants to because he's not supposed to know that yet.

Absolutely :yes And some children just want to learn things without anyone having to push them at all. You can't just stop a child from learning stuff just in case they are bored at some future point in school or they won't be reaching their own potential. It's a schools responsibility to teach a child at the appropriate level for them, and if they are not doing that then it is an issue that needs to be sorted out.

[dharder]

Absolutely :yes And some children just want to learn things without anyone having to push them at all. You can't just stop a child from learning stuff just in case they are bored at some future point in school or they won't be reaching their own potential. It's a schools responsibility to teach a child at the appropriate level for them, and if they are not doing that then it is an issue that needs to be sorted out.

Of course I agree with the idea, and that would be wonderful. But how could that be pratically possible? There are 26 children in the class (30 in the UK, although they had a teacher and a teacher aide there, there's only one teacher here), how would it be humanly possible to cater to each individually?

I come from a very different educational background, where you don't 'learn' in kindergarten, start school a lot later (6 or 7 even) only ever have half days (my kids spent three months in a German school and are desperate to move back there since they were home for lunch...) of school.

It is interesting to compare the three systems (UK, Germany and now NZ), and look at what they do well or not so well. So far, my conclusion as to which system is better has been 'that entirely depends on your child' :)

Daniela

[Alex40]

JandM, I loved reading your paragraph too. I am a big believer in one size doesn't fit all as well.:nice1

I could learn a lot from an ex teacher like you, I am a career changer at 40!

Woodies, I liked your post too..

I like reading other parents and teacher's experiences.:cheers

[Tia Maria]

Great post J & M!


Seem to have deviated from the purpose of this thread a bit here, but I suppose this shows that there are lots of options for preschool education here is NZ and it's just a case of finding the right one for your childrens personality.

This is it in a nutshell, if you have a child who has thrived at Kindy with 'free play' you'll recommend that, equally if you've had a child thrive at private Kindy you'll see the merits of that. As long as it works for the child and the family then that is all that counts.

Personally I'm not 100% free play or 100% structured, I have heard success and failure stories from both. So I really think the important thing is to match the right environment to your child to the best of your ability.

When real life steps in and the perfect pre-school can't be found then family support at home should always be enough to compensate for any pre-school inadequacies at this age. Of course when they reach 16 and need help with their Physics you may want to consult someone. :)

There is a great little programme they use to show - possibly called 0-5 (jub jub will probably know!), which had some fab tips for all aspects of children's development.

Cheers

Tia

[Sam B]

I'm a big fan of kindies here, I think they are amazing. I have not seen them from the perspective of a parent, as my children were both school aged when we moved here, but from the perspective of a speech and language therapist for the under 5s.

The range of activities is wonderful, much better than I have ever seen in any UK pre-school. Toys and other items are generally in great condition, and rotated to keep them fresh. Outdoor equipment is amazing. There is a culture of risk-taking - with your learning and also physically - e.g. climbing trees, using hammer and nails, hot glue guns etc.

In my experience of several kindergartens in one area, children are encouraged to try out a range of activities, and if a child is just sticking to one area, steps will be taken to encourage them to try out new things. Staff are competent and qualified. Children who are advanced with books, drawing and writing have many opportunities to take these skills further, as all kindies have a nicely laid out book corner, there are always table top activities to encourage drawing and writing.

Children that attend kindy (and other pre-school options in NZ) have very advanced self-care skills compared to the UK. From an early age they are expected to dress and undress themselves, sort out their bags and manage their lunches. For example, a small 3 year old who couldn't open his packet of crisps was then given some (sharp) scissors and left to struggle until he had cut them open.

I am not a lover of mat time, as they tend to favour the sociable, confident and verbal children, and my clients are never in this group. They are to be found at the back of the mat playing with fluff off the carpet or causing trouble, so mat time is not good for them. Mat times appear to be mercifully short at kindy.

Peer - peer interaction is noticeably much better in NZ kindies than in UK pre-schools where there are more adult-led activities. They have really got this nailed. The lay-out of the rooms and outside equipment contributes to this - e.g. activities laid out encourage peer/peer interaction such as comfy double seat sofas in the book corner, carts that need someone to pull them as well as someone to ride in the,. Double swings, play houses etc. Peer/peer interaction is more important than child/adult interaction at this age as it is more representative of real life. E.g. if a child points and grunts at an adult holding a toy car, the adult will most likely hand over the toy, but another child would snatch the car closer to them, and then the child would have to negotiate and try harder. From the age of 3 years, children should ideally spend at least 60% of their time at pre-school engaged in peer-peer interaction (source - Learning Language and Loving It - Hanen)

However, adult - child interaction IS important, especially for children with communication difficulties, as it provides a good model, and the scaffolding that children need to manage early narrative skills. In my opinion, this is one of the few places where NZ kindies fall down a little. There is less adult interaction than I am used to, although there is some. The other drawback I find, is that for children that are reluctant to communicate, there is no motivation to communicate as EVERYTHING is available, so there is no need to ask for anything. So a very quiet child can possibly go through an entire session without the need to talk.

Just a few of my thoughts.

[Alex40]

Great posts again!

[Familyofmonkeys]

Interesting stuff Sam B :nice1

[JandM]

Sam B, that's all very interesting, and bears out exactly what I saw happening when going along to A's kindy when we were over there last year.

Thanks for your interest, everybody.

Daniela, you said this.Of course I agree with the idea, and that would be wonderful. But how could that be pratically possible? There are 26 children in the class (30 in the UK, although they had a teacher and a teacher aide there, there's only one teacher here), how would it be humanly possible to cater to each individually? Well, that was the expectation, and it made teaching extremely challenging - it was an ideal, constantly before you, that you tried your best to reach, while knowing (as with parenting) that you couldn't do it all the time for all the people. It took close personal knowledge of the children, foresight, planning, and clever management of their time. (When you found Fred needed to go on to such-and-such in Maths, say, but you weren't free to explain it right then, you'd divert him into something he could usefully be getting on with on his own in another subject area - so you needed to be constantly aware of what everybody was doing in all their work - knowing that later, whoever you'd been with THEN would be able to get on without you while you went back and worked with Fred. And so on for all the children.) There were certain core communal goals for the class, so you'd have a proportion of whole-class lessons, but around those went the individual stuff - stretching, remedial, practising, reinforcing - whatever was needed. Teaching done this way is a mixture of a science and an art. No, it wasn't easy, but it was what was. Like I said before, that was then.

[Carey]

Sam B, that's all very interesting, and bears out exactly what I saw happening when going along to A's kindy when we were over there last year.

Thanks for your interest, everybody.

Daniela, you said this.Well, that was the expectation, and it made teaching extremely challenging - it was an ideal, constantly before you, that you tried your best to reach, while knowing (as with parenting) that you couldn't do it all the time for all the people. It took close personal knowledge of the children, foresight, planning, and clever management of their time. (When you found Fred needed to go on to such-and-such in Maths, say, but you weren't free to explain it right then, you'd divert him into something he could usefully be getting on with on his own in another subject area - so you needed to be constantly aware of what everybody was doing in all their work - knowing that later, whoever you'd been with THEN would be able to get on without you while you went back and worked with Fred. And so on for all the children.) There were certain core communal goals for the class, so you'd have a proportion of whole-class lessons, but around those went the individual stuff - stretching, remedial, practising, reinforcing - whatever was needed. Teaching done this way is a mixture of a science and an art. No, it wasn't easy, but it was what was. Like I said before, that was then.

I'd say primary teaching is still that way and yes it's very, very hard and is a real challenge every day but that is your job as a teacher. And you find a way to do it or you are letting children down. Of course you can group some children together, you have to, to manage but even then you are in effect teaching the individual because no two children will learn in exactly the same way.

Back to the pre-school issue; the main difference I've noticed is the incredible independence and resilience of the children. They have been brought up to sort themsleves out, get on with it, have a go and if they get hurt, they just know it will get better soon! The language the staff use is very simple at times eg." Stop, that is not OK" when a behaviour or action is unfavourable or simply " Good listening/sharing/choice, Joe". And it works. They are trusted with lots of tasks and that empowers them, boosts their self-esteem so they are in a better position to be responsible and round the circle goes. Definitely different to the UK and IMHO, a more preferred way to get ready for the next stage of school.

[thewoodies]

Great posts!

I enjoyed Jandm post - we have alot to learn from what was done back then - the private system i have seen here in UK still adopts the old fashioned values and the older teachers are just wonderful - i tend to think it was better back then.......:exit

great to hear others views it helps me make informed choices for my kids -

its just such a responsibility to get it right :nice1

[Tia Maria]

great to hear others views it helps me make informed choices for my kids -

its just such a responsibility to get it right :nice1

My feeling is that the parents who do give such thought and consideration to their children are 90% of the way to getting it right anyway!

Cheers

Tia

[JandM]

great to hear others views it helps me make informed choices for my kids -

its just such a responsibility to get it right :nice1

Tia's quite right. And don't forget that, although parents may be tearing themselves up over what they might have done, but didn't, and that might have been better for their child, etc. etc. (and most of us do this at some time), the child doesn't have the broad adult overview to be making the comparisons with what might have been - he'll just be getting on, living his life as it happens. What turns up IS his life, and mostly, he'll think it's okay.:)

[dharder]

he'll just be getting on, living his life as it happens. What turns up IS his life, and mostly, he'll think it's okay.:)

Our older ones were quite perplexed for a while that people seemed to think that we primarily moved away from their 'bad' school in East London. Of course it was just their school, and the concept of 'bad' (not that I used that term in connection with that school a lot) school didn't mean anything to them.

They went on to ask if the other one was 'bad' because there were no climbing frames, and for now, we just say 'yes' to that. All other socio- economic, racial, religious and polictical reasons of why things were not always as good as they could have been will have to wait...

Daniela

[peebles16]

Great post J & M!



This is it in a nutshell, if you have a child who has thrived at Kindy with 'free play' you'll recommend that, equally if you've had a child thrive at private Kindy you'll see the merits of that. As long as it works for the child and the family then that is all that counts.

Personally I'm not 100% free play or 100% structured, I have heard success and failure stories from both. So I really think the important thing is to match the right environment to your child to the best of your ability.

When real life steps in and the perfect pre-school can't be found then family support at home should always be enough to compensate for any pre-school inadequacies at this age. Of course when they reach 16 and need help with their Physics you may want to consult someone. :)

There is a great little programme they use to show - possibly called 0-5 (jub jub will probably know!), which had some fab tips for all aspects of children's development.

Cheers

Tia

Oh what an interesting thread this has turned into :)
This post sums it up perfectly for me and I did voice my concerns early about the kindy system purely in relation to my own son I must say :o He has learned so much from the kindy system and I don't have any real expectations from an academic perspective about school to be honest... What does worry me as his Mum is the lack of structure and whether, if he stays in the kindy environment, he will be able to cope with the 'structured' environment of school. He's on a good day a boisterous boy and on others he can be quite a challenge, he has fantastic social skills, is very independent and loves haring about outside all day everyday at kindy. This is all great stuff and he has come on leaps and bounds :D

I do feel he needs more variety and will need 'prepared' for the reality of school when the time comes. We do try and provide him with some downtime at home with more activities but it's not the same imho...

Gosh haven't explained that very well but hope folks get the gist....

Karenx

[Georgebulldog]

Tia's quite right. And don't forget that, although parents may be tearing themselves up over what they might have done, but didn't, and that might have been better for their child, etc. etc. (and most of us do this at some time), the child doesn't have the broad adult overview to be making the comparisons with what might have been - he'll just be getting on, living his life as it happens. What turns up IS his life, and mostly, he'll think it's okay.:)

Good to read this & all the other posts, some a bit frightening & has made me think am I doing the right thing or should I be going the private highr ratio route. DD started kindy on yesterday & I can now see what one of you said about mat time & will be looking out for her interaction at this time over the next few weeks, also picking her up I had to stop one boy pushing another in the cloackroom with no teachers around, imagine my thoughts with my dd's first day, then reading this tonight makes me think again. Being a Librian (sp?) I can't make decisions easily & swing from one to another so already reading this tonight has set my mind racing & thinking what will I do when the private place comes up, she may be nearly 4 then so what to do? Off for another glass of vino I think :exit
Thanks everyone for your views though they have opened my eyes to things I wouldn't have thought about