[Sovenok]

The immigration rules have no requirements for Maori language. Assuming that all of you are not going to leave NZ in the future, sooner or later you will be citizens. Being a citizen implies that you know and regard the culture of NZ, folks, history and so on, including the state languages.

For instance, I realize that I’m not a native English speaker and my English is still poor, as I’m not living in English environment. So I’m planning hard work around this matter, well I even know how I will eliminate an accent, unbelievable. I’m very confident since I adore English, so have a strong will.

I would not like to be a stranger in NZ, take my place.
Will you learn Maori, if yes, what for. Please share your thoughts on this matter.
For those of you who is IN already. How often do you listen Maori speach? How do you feel yourself at those moments?

[YouMeAndThree]

I probably won't learn Maori in order to speak it, but I am interested to find out the meanings behind place names and pronunciation. My interest to speak the language is the same as my interest to speak Welsh whilst living in the UK :exit (Welsh grandparents couldn't even speak it, LOL)

Lx

[Sovenok]

I probably won't learn Maori in order to speak it, but I am interested to find out the meanings behind place names and pronunciation. My interest to speak the language is the same as my interest to speak Welsh whilst living in the UK :exit (Welsh grandparents couldn't even speak it, LOL)

Lx
So, that's taken for granted for you :D

[TheNaylors]

I definitely want to learn some Maori before we get out there and will probably learn more off my kids when they go to school :o:laugh. The main reasons for me wanting to learn it, is that not only do I enjoy the challenge of learning new languages but I also feel that if I get out there it shows a healthy respect of NZ's culture and history. I even try to learn a little of the local language before whenever we go on holiday to a foreign country. There are so many people that live in my area currently, that don't speak a word of English and that irritates me so much and although NZ is primarily English speaking I would prefer to have some knowledge of Maori, even if it is just simple conversation.

:)

[Sovenok]

Do kids study Maori at school?

[ellenmelon]

Do kids study Maori at school?

Depends on the school, but generally numbers, basic greetings, colours, songs (action or otherwise) are as far as it goes. Some teachers put the maori name for something on for example a piece of furniture, or a door or window.
There may be a minimum amount of maori language required to be taught in schools but someone else may be able to let you know about this.

[IanW99]

The immigration rules have no requirements for Maori language. Assuming that all of you are not going to leave NZ in the future, sooner or later you will be citizens. Being a citizen implies that you know and regard the culture of NZ, folks, history and so on, including the state languages.
...
I would not like to be a stranger in NZ, take my place.
Will you learn Maori, if yes, what for. Please share your thoughts on this matter.
For those of you who is IN already. How often do you listen Maori speach? How do you feel yourself at those moments?

There is no reason for anyone with a PR to ever become a NZ citizen, it is his or her choice.

There are actually three recognised languages of NZ you are only expected to be able to speak one of them (normally English).

After you have been in NZ for a while you will pick up a lot of Maori words whether you think about it or not, there are actually many words in common usage. However even many Maori can not speak the Maori language.

For kids learning Maori at school, there are actually some Maori schools where the main language is Maori - so I suspect that they get to study it a lot :D

BTW, even google NZ has a Maori option.

Ian

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

There are actually three recognised languages of NZ you are only expected to be able to speak one of them (normally English).
Sorry, I must be dense, but...what's the third official language? :confused:

And yes, I was just going to point out the fact that there are a number of Maroi-immersion schools in New Zealand (and they're not just for Maori students, I've met quite a few pakeha who had an absolutely fluent grasp of the language thanks to their education).

I know some very basic Maori but will probably end up taking it as an addition to my legal studies, since most law professionals need to be able to communicate effectively in both.

[sks]

Sorry, I must be dense, but...what's the third official language?...

NZSL (New Zealand Sign Language).

[sks]

...Being a citizen implies that you know and regard the culture of NZ, folks, history and so on, including the state languages...

This is a commendable attitude, and one that I wish more of your countrymen shared. What percentage of Russian residents of Yakutia speak Yakut, for example?

...So I’m planning hard work around this matter, well I even know how I will eliminate an accent, unbelievable...

Bravo. I'm a native speaker of English, but even I don't expect to lose my (American) accent.

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

NZSL (New Zealand Sign Language).
Aha, thanks for the clarification. :)

[Sovenok]

I know some very basic Maori but will probably end up taking it as an addition to my legal studies, since most law professionals need to be able to communicate effectively in both.
BadlyDrawnGirl, are you a native speaker of English? I thought no one of Britain can say "know Maory" instead of "speak Maory" :roll

[Sovenok]

After you have been in NZ for a while you will pick up a lot of Maori words whether you think about it or not, there are actually many words in common usage. However even many Maori can not speak the Maori language.

Really? Thanks for an interesting reply :nice1

[Sovenok]

This is a commendable attitude, and one that I wish more of your countrymen shared. What percentage of Russian residents of Yakutia speak Yakut, for example?

Bravo. I'm a native speaker of English, but even I don't expect to lose my (American) accent.
Good question :nice1. But there is only one official language in Russia. So I don't speak Yakut, have no imagination about percentage in Yakutia, it's too far from where I live.
About an accent: the main keys for eliminating it is expressiveniss and emphasis. Oh, I'm not trying to teach you :)

[emka]

@sks: Ah, this touches on an interesting aspect: accent.

There are so many pieces of research on settlement factors, immigration outcomes etc., a lot of which can be found on the Department of Labour’s website under Publications (I strongly recommend reading this stuff – not everything makes easy reading, some of it is very academic and contains statistic number crunching, but the vast majority is really highly interesting).

Almost all studies look at English language proficiency as one key prerequisite for successful settlement. Many findings, however, indicate that it is not enough to have, or eventually acquire (e.g. through ESOL courses) a high or even near-native level of English proficiency. Apparently in order to gain employment, especially if it is sought at mid level or managerial level, one needs to speak the right English. So it is a Kiwi accent, in addition to that all-important New Zealand work experience, that NZ employers are looking for when considering applicants. A foreign accent turns out to be a major draw-back. This is certainly less the case for British and probably other non-Kiwi English accents, but does apply to speakers from non-English countries of origin, e.g. Asians, Indians, and also Europeans whose accents are easy to pick, e.g. Russians, Germans or French nationals.

Now I neither want to discuss whether this is good or bad nor to which extent it happens.
What I would like to know is: did any of you who come from a non-English speaking country consider accent reduction training? It may be called differently, e.g. elocution training, enunciation or articulation classes/workshops. Or did you even undergo such training? If so, with what result? And if you did so in NZ, what kind of English was used as the standard to train for? Obviously not the Queen’s English, but most likely not New Zild English either. I would also be interested to know whether there are any generally accepted age limits in Second Language Acquisition Theory, i.e. after what age a thick accent just won’t go away any more, no matter how hard one tries.

Should you consider this too off-topic because Sovenok originally asked about Maori language, I could just make it a new thread (accent reduction).

Emka

PS: And before you ask why I am interested: yes, I do have a thick German accent. And I may be past that age limit.:wah

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

BadlyDrawnGirl, are you a native speaker of English? I thought no one of Britain can say "know Maory" instead of "speak Maory" :roll
Umm...yes, I am a native speaker of English, although I'm not British. And I'm not really sure what you're talking about...by the way, it's spelled with an i, not a y on the end. ;)

[Sovenok]

emka,
you don't have to create a new thread, the accent is not an off-top, OK :)

I truely believe there are no anti-accent training courses. However you can train yourself: first of all, listen to Kiwis how they talk, try to repeat the intonation and stress of words and whole structure of sentences. This is my theory only.

My IELTS test says that I have a proficiency level, but I estimate my level as poor for a real job hunting. I will not discuss this case as you didn't want.

[Sovenok]

Umm...yes, I am a native speaker of English, although I'm not British. And I'm not really sure what you're talking about...by the way, it's spelled with an i, not a y on the end. ;)
Well, I may be wrong talking about things I'm not an expert in.
Sorry, I ment Maori. Sometimes I write without verification :)

[daveyboy]

BadlyDrawnGirl, are you a native speaker of English? I thought no one of Britain can say "know Maory" instead of "speak Maory" :roll
Sovenok, I am a native British English speaker. It is acceptable to say 'know' a language as well as 'speak' it. A bit like Spanish and French when you would be more likely to say 'know' (conozco/ je connais).

They are pretty synonymous, however to analyse it very closely, 'speak' is more likely to mean that you actually use it (although neither mean that you definitely do).

Regarding accent, as a hobby linguist, you can lose an accent at any age, just think of actors who can do this. You can be taught some good basic tips for losing an accent, not just obvious ones. For example it is the length of sounds which is often a giveway e.g. many British English people would say 'bag' as a very short word, wheras many Europeans say it as a much longer sound. As in this case, its not the sound itself but the length of sound which is the giveaway.

However, learning to lose your accent sounds seems very sad :(

[emka]

It may be sad to actively work on losing one’s accent, but (no – I’m not starting the discussion about discrimination) it is probably wise if you take a sober look at the environment and its reaction to accent, i.e. negative connotations/perceptions and possibly negative consequences that result from a foreign accent in various areas of life. Not everybody finds accents cute or interesting.

Sure, it must be possible to train away accents or at least minimise them. Apparently that’s what call centres in India do to prepare their staff: you call up from, say, the States or Ireland and are greeted by somebody who calls him-/herself Jimmy or Mandy and talks to you in „your“ English variety – to mask that the call has actually been routed to India. And, as you say, actors of different extraction are trained to speak British or American English. So yes, I agree that age is probably no a knock-out criterion.

I was just wondering what effort is involved to achieve a markedly reduced accent. If it requires months of one-on-one lessons with a personal coach, then it is simply not feasible for the average mortal who doesn’t have deep pockets and doesn’t get paid lessons like call centre staff, actors, radio/TV hosts and maybe politicians. I feel that certain things are deeply ingrained, e.g. intonation, sentence melody or connected speech as opposed to staccato syllables, and hence really difficult to change. So it is more than just certain sounds that would need to be identified and then simply changed to produce „correct“ speech. But maybe there *are* affordable and effective ways?

Any linguists or ESOL teachers here to add their wisdom?

[JandM]

I was just wondering what effort is involved to achieve a markedly reduced accent.I've taught ESOL one-to-one, and I've studied and taught acting. From both those parts of my background, I'd say there isn't one universally applicable answer to your question. A HUGE amount depends on each individual learner - what does s/he have in the way of acuteness of hearing, musical ability, intelligence, reason for attempting this, motivation to carry it through, self-confidence (or the reverse)... for a start?

As a for instance, in a group situation - say, 40 people from the UK about to stage an American musical - you could have them all doing the same vocal drills, and send them away with the same recordings of native US-English speakers to listen to over and over, and even if they all spent the same time on the project (in itself a big 'if'), you'd still finish up with some who succeeded better than others.

Regarding accent, as a hobby linguist, you can lose an accent at any age, just think of actors who can do this. You can be taught some good basic tips for losing an accent, not just obvious ones. I agree with this (adding in 'or gaining an accent').

[Sovenok]

enka,
I remember some lessons I listened while I was preparing to IELTS, hope it helps
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/webcast/tae_betterspeaking_archive.shtml

[Sovenok]

However, learning to lose your accent sounds seems very sad :(

:D Sounds like: lose one's part of body

[Derv]

For those of you who is IN already. How often do you listen Maori speach? How do you feel yourself at those moments?

I've never heard anyone speak Maori in the nearly four years we've been here, except for the few words of greeting and farewell at the beginning and end of the news on radio and TV.

[sks]

... in order to gain employment, especially if it is sought at mid level or managerial level, one needs to speak the right English. So it is a Kiwi accent, in addition to that all-important New Zealand work experience, that NZ employers are looking for when considering applicants. A foreign accent turns out to be a major draw-back...

Well, I do hope you're wrong -- although I'm still at the interview stage, I have not noticed any reactions from potential employers that my American accent was a drawback. Perhaps I'm just being naive, or perhaps my accent isn't "foreign" enough to matter a great deal (it's rather generic Northeast US -- not a heavy Brooklyn, New England, or Deep South accent, which could well be viewed differently).


...yes, I do have a thick German accent...

So does my Mom :D. From a region that isn't even German any more (Ostpreussen).

[Sovenok]

Well, I do hope you're wrong -- although I'm still at the interview stage, I have not noticed any reactions from potential employers that my American accent was a drawback. Perhaps I'm just being naive, or perhaps my accent isn't "foreign" enough to matter a great
I agree that the connection between an accent and a drowback is weak.

Americans shouldn't warry about it at all. The matter is diffrent.
Nobody has revoked Britain English yet, it's rules, grammar. If an applicant can understand what an employer tell him, nothing else needed.

Moreover, from what I heard from Russians who settled in NZ, even not a good speaker can get a job. If he is a professional, an employer will shut eyes to his English.