logo

  New Zealand Immigration Guide









Diny
17th September 2004, 09:59 PM
Wonder if anybody can help me on this one. Just had a chap around this morning from White & Co to list all the stuff we're sending to NZ. Although he couldn't give an accurate quote until he got back to his office and did all the paperwork, he said he was pretty sure that a 20ft container would cost in the region of 3,400 pounds plus the marine insurance of 3% of the total value of goods shipped.

I was talking to Blue last night, her quote (from a different company) for a 20ft container was considerably less than this.

What do you think folks - is this abit steep or is it the norm. I was thinking in the region of 3000 all up. I was also quoted an arrival time of about 5 - 6 weeks (non-groupage), and the company needs 3 weeks notice.

Diny

Michelle and Richard
18th September 2004, 01:59 AM
Hi Diny

We got a quote from Whites of 2500 and 2900 from Crown which we got down to 2675, you can haggle with them and don't forget to try to get the insurance down as well. We got the insurance with al the extras for 3% it started at 4.2%. Our stuff is on its way and I was very impressed with the service from Crown over the 2 days it took to pack, will let you know what its like when it arrives.

Michelle

Diny
18th September 2004, 02:31 AM
Thanks Michelle - looks like my quote is abit high. Will definately get a couple more.

Have you had a 20ft container? If so, I wonder why the quotes are so different.

Congrats on your good news.

Diny

Michelle and Richard
18th September 2004, 07:58 PM
Hi

Yes had a 20 ft container sole usage

Michelle

anita
30th September 2004, 02:10 AM
we are going to use G B Liners [anyone heard of them]for a 20ft sole container they have quoted £2900 plus marine insurance of 2.75%.
Has anyone had any dealings with them?

Carol
30th September 2004, 08:55 AM
Blimey! The prices have doubled in the time we have been here!
We used Trans Euro......not sure if they are still around.
They were fantastic...no breakages at all. Except for my son's bicycle seat.

We brought a whole container (just for our stuff) and a half container (for the car) .
I'm certain it was 1500 all up. That's inflation for you eh!

We brought every last thing we could!!!
So glad we did too!
I was even stuffing maternity clothes into the last gap in the container.....hubby laughed at me.....but I used 'em 3 years later!
;) :mrgreen:

Diny
30th September 2004, 10:14 AM
Carol

Oh Lord ... I could just imagine PB's face if I started packing maternity clothes !!!!!! :eek

Have had 2 quotes so far and got Crown coming tomorrow to give us a third.

Still much cheaper than selling it all and then buying in NZ.

Diny

Fern
30th September 2004, 03:31 PM
Hi,

If it helps anyone,we are using Allide Pickfords,and is £4,000 for sole use 40ft.

kiwidebs
30th September 2004, 08:02 PM
I've heard that it pays to negotiate with these companies. Am watching with interest as we'll be doing this late next year or early 2006!! Let us know what Crown have to say Diny.

Oh Lord ... I could just imagine PB's face if I started packing maternity clothes !!!!!!
:laugh :laugh :laugh

Debs

Diny
1st October 2004, 01:43 AM
Deb

Have had Crown here this afternoon. Obviously got to wait for a written quote but he said it would bein the region of 3500 for a 20ft sole use container. Will definately play each company off against the other until they come down abit. When you consider you have to pay an added 3% of contents value onto the price for insurance, you're talking alot of money!

Will let you know as soon as the quote comes.

Diny

Diny
1st October 2004, 01:51 AM
Been looking back over some of the posts regarding shipping costs. It seems that we've been quoted quite highly from all companies.

Will definately have to do some bartering - then I shall seal the deal by spitting on my palm and shaking hands (I've always wanted to do that).

Diny

anita
2nd October 2004, 12:38 AM
I have also been taking everyones advise. I have now got my quote down to £2825 for 20ft container plus 2.5%insurance.

Quite happy with that :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

dphillview
4th October 2004, 06:58 AM
Hi Everyone

Well we had Curtiss and Sons round last week (they are a sister company to White and Co..but cheaper :nice1 ) and they quoted £2500 for a 20 ft sole use container + 3% marine insurance. Asked if we could arrange alternative marine insurance and they said yep no problem.. :P

This company has had many good reviews on other forums, so I think this is the one that we will be using..just waiting for the paperwork now

Also this includes all packing, 4 wks free storage in the uk, delivery to your place in NZ, unpacking and clearing away of all packaging.

If anyone wants their phone number just let me know.

Hope this helps

jan
29th January 2005, 08:28 PM
A friend of ours is moving out to Christchurch in March. He has had about 8 different co. quoting him. He has now chosen G.B Liners from Altrincham Manchester.

I have been trawling this forum for a while now and no-one has mentioned this co. (I think)

Does any-one know anything about them? They have give him a price that is cheaper than the other names that we all seem to have had a quote off.

I have asked them to come & quote us but wouldn't mind any advice.

Jan xx

Diny
30th January 2005, 09:31 AM
Never heard of them Jan but I'm looking forward to hear what they quote you.

I'm still convinced I can get our costs down abit more.

Diny

Diny
30th January 2005, 10:00 AM
Have just found them on the web. Here they are:

http://www.gb-liners.com/location1.htm

Diny

Moorf
30th January 2005, 10:18 AM
That's fab! I have wanted to find a company with offices in Worthing (which is where all our gear is in storage!) and GB Liners have one there!!

:raebanana

Diny
30th January 2005, 10:35 AM
Have also just filled in a quotation request and realise that GB Liners offer a 'self pack' service as standard. I found all the other companies were really reluctant to allow you to self pack .... obviously it means less money for them.

I'll let you know what the rep says when he calls me back in a couple of days (the confirmation message I got said he would anyway).

Diny

Moorf
30th January 2005, 10:37 AM
Yep I've just emailed them too - slightly different scenario for us - our gear is all boxed up and in storage although I doubt it's packed well enough for them to ship so have asked for quote for them to repack and ship...

Will post results...

jonSE
31st January 2005, 09:39 AM
Given the title of this thread, though Ild add my two penn'orth.

Bishops Move - £5600 for sole use of a 20' and a 40' container (for the the two cars and the leftovers. All packing and unpacking by them .

Jon

Diny
8th February 2005, 07:16 AM
Moorf did you ever hear back from GB Liners?

I completed the on-line quotation request form but had no reply. Also called them and was told I'd get a call from one of their agents - never got the call.

Don't think I'd be too happy to trust them with our worldly goods now.

Diny

jonSE
8th February 2005, 10:42 AM
Further to my last, I waved goodbye to my two babies (Cars) today along with the last 55 boxes (of 247) as they left Bishops Move depot in Battersea.

No connection or interest in Bishops Move (Other than they are responsible for our stuff until it arrives) but I have to say they were very helpful, there packers were brilliant and mobilised another 3 packers overnight when it looked like they would run late.

Complaints - I definitely had the impression that had we stood still they would have packed us. and they managed to lock the keys in the car at their depot last week (This is really difficult) So we had to go and unlock the car with the spare keys.

Now searching for websites to track our containers.

Ex UK on 17th and we still have so much to do.

Jon

Moorf
8th February 2005, 11:32 AM
Diny - yes I got a reply back the next day :P no prices just asking for the contact info of my parents (who will be overseeing them repacking our gear!! Poor poor poor packers... :laugh )..

However, we may have contacted different offices, I used the Brighton one as our stuff is in storage nearby...

Diny
8th February 2005, 06:29 PM
I contacted the Hereford Branch (as the crow flies it's our nearest). I may just give the company anther try - I'll ring Manchester this time.

They seem very reasonable - I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face.

Can you give us some idea of price when you get your quote? I'll do the same if/when I get mine.

Thanks.

Diny

sarahw
8th February 2005, 06:53 PM
For all of you getting quotes at the moment we really played them off each other - even though we hadn't had reductions from some we got others to reduce their prices & ended up saving about £500 from the quoted price - so try it on! :nice1 You'll certainly need that £500 when you get to the other end!

PSS was the cheapest for us - we spent about £2,500 for a 20ft reefer container (part of it is refrigeration so it is smaller than a 20ft but when they arrived they had run out of them so we had a 20ft instead!)

Hannah-NL
9th February 2005, 02:06 AM
Wow sounds like some of you are getting a good deal there!
We live in Holland and so far I havent gotten under the 4600 Euro (3,161 GBP) for a 20ft container.
That's without insurance which I have seen quoted between 1,6 and 2,6% now.
That is home to home and packed by them.
I think you have to pack your own books and clothes tho...
By the way the most expensive one was Crown, at 5600 Euro (3850 GBP).

acisman
10th February 2005, 07:10 PM
Thought I would add our shippers experiences to this thread as well as comments elsewhere.

Looks like we will be using PSS. They came in at £3250 ( sole use 20 foot container) door to door Cambridge UK to Cambridge NZ ( well I like the name ) via Auckland. They have been excellent to date and can move us with only 2 weeks notice. PSS also offer 2 weeks free storage in the UK before being shipped and then $55 per week in NZ + $220 one off payment. Insurance 2.5%. 2 day packing; first day items are boxed and covered, 2nd day packing is finished and then put into the container.

White & Co quoted £3550, but even if there were the lowest I doubt we would have used them. They take your goods away in a lorry over 2 days, to their warehouse and it is here that the goods are put into a container. We didn't like the sound of this. No insurance offer.

Our 3rd quote should have come from Crown, but they cancelled the appointment at the last minutes and cannot re-arrange before 14th February. I guess we will give them the elbow.

PSS stated it could take as little as 7 weeks from the time the container leaves our house until it arrives in Auckland. This is a little scary as we will not be going to NZ until 7 weeks after we move out. The 2 weeks free storage before shipping and the reasonably priced storage in Auckland is therefore welcome.

Whites offer 10 weeks free store before shipping.

I will let you know how things develope both here and in NZ

All set to go on 17th April and I can't wait.

Dave

Moorf
10th February 2005, 10:06 PM
Diny - Will do.. but my quote might take a while as we aren't bothering until we HAVE a house :?

.. and if tonights offer goes ahead looks like we might be moving from Brighton to.. Brighton!

;)

Glenda
11th February 2005, 12:47 AM
Thought I would add our shippers experiences to this thread as well as comments elsewhere.

Looks like we will be using PSS. They came in at £3250 ( sole use 20 foot container) door to door Cambridge UK to Cambridge NZ ( well I like the name ) via Auckland. They have been excellent to date and can move us with only 2 weeks notice. PSS also offer 2 weeks free storage in the UK before being shipped and then $55 per week in NZ + $220 one off payment. Insurance 2.5%. 2 day packing; first day items are boxed and covered, 2nd day packing is finished and then put into the container.

White & Co quoted £3550, but even if there were the lowest I doubt we would have used them. They take your goods away in a lorry over 2 days, to their warehouse and it is here that the goods are put into a container. We didn't like the sound of this. No insurance offer.

Our 3rd quote should have come from Crown, but they cancelled the appointment at the last minutes and cannot re-arrange before 14th February. I guess we will give them the elbow.

PSS stated it could take as little as 7 weeks from the time the container leaves our house until it arrives in Auckland. This is a little scary as we will not be going to NZ until 7 weeks after we move out. The 2 weeks free storage before shipping and the reasonably priced storage in Auckland is therefore welcome.

Whites offer 10 weeks free store before shipping.

I will let you know how things develope both here and in NZ

All set to go on 17th April and I can't wait.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Well at least PSS are consistent with their quotes. We live 15miles south of Cambridge and were quoted £3,265 for a 20ft to go to the Bay of Islands.

We can't wait either!!!! :smile

acisman
11th February 2005, 12:56 AM
Hi Glenda

My word that's scary. We also live a few miles south of Cambridge (West Wickham, near Haverhill), so I guess you live just over the border in Essex.

We had originally intended to go on 25th June, but have had to bring it forward due to the quick sale of our house. If things had worked out differently we could have shared a 40 foot container and both saved a couple of bob !!

We haven't yet decided exactly where we will settle, but we are heading for Cambridge in the frst instance and will then look around.


It really is a small world.

Dave

v.redmond
18th February 2005, 08:28 AM
Hi,

If it helps anyone,we are using Allide Pickfords,and is £4,000 for sole use 40ft. how did you get that price just been quoted £5751

Moorf
2nd March 2005, 11:02 PM
Diny - did you ever hear back from GB Liners? I finally got round to contacting them again today as my mum as said she'll oversee things... will post costs when I get them.

Moorf

Diny
2nd March 2005, 11:46 PM
Moorf

Sorry yeah I did (eventually).

They came back with the exact same figure as White & Co. I contacted them and said that if they knock 200 quid off the quote the job was theirs................ funny though .... I never heard from them again.

I hear they're a pretty good company though so reckon you'll be OK with them.

Diny

Moorf
3rd March 2005, 11:25 AM
Thanks Diny, I should have my quote in a week :nice1

Moorf
3rd March 2005, 02:47 PM
Which insurance did folks take out for shipping their goods? We have been advised:-

1.5% for total loss
3.25% all risks

Moorf

captainxmas
4th March 2005, 04:20 AM
Hi guys,

Just got my quote in from Avalon (Team Relocations) with regards to sole use of a 20ft Reefer, which we won't fill.

Not a whole lot of stuff, no cars, no washing machine and yet it was £3050, this seems a little overloaded to me when people are getting 40ft quotes for not much more.

Oh, and GB Liners cancelled on me this afternoon after racing home from work early.

Any other recommendations, since the house is dragging and we will need every penny?? :hopeso

Diny
4th March 2005, 08:34 AM
Hey Captain

That is the EXACT same amount that we have been quoted from White & Co, sole use 20ft container ...... but ours will be bursting at the seams.

I was in discussions with GB Liners but then suddenly they never returned my latest call and I've not heard from them since. However, I understand that those people who have actually used them were more than happy with the service.

Diny

captainxmas
4th March 2005, 10:09 AM
Cheers Diny,

I've rebooked with GB and got Whites coming too, so we shall see.

:cheers

Diny
5th March 2005, 02:56 AM
Have just contacted a different Branch of Brittania (Wolverhampton instead of Stafford).

They have given me an over the phone quote which beats White & Co by 80.00. That's including insurance !!!

They're coming out on the 15th to measure up.

It pays to shop around.

Diny

captainxmas
5th March 2005, 05:17 AM
The chap at Whites also told me that they do a lot of subcontract work on behalf of Team/Avalon.

No wonder they like to charge a bit extra to skim off the top...

andersonclan
6th March 2005, 12:40 AM
Guys

Any advice on when to start looking for quotes. Hopefully our ITA will go in next week (if the Dr ever returns our medicals - 5 weeks and counting -beginning to think I only had weeks to live and they didn't want to tell us!!!).

Have a buyer for the house :hopeso - papers still to be completed and signed with a moving date of 20th June. Ideally would like to pack up and go then - but not sure if all NZIS paperwork will be completed.

Not even sure where we'll end up in NZ - will depend on where I get a job - feel that we'd prefer the South Island but think we may end up around Wellington as I'm more likely to get some government type job.

Anyway, to get back to the point - would it be too early now to ask for quotes based on so much uncertainty.

Any advice greatly received

Margaret

Diny
6th March 2005, 01:03 AM
We got (most of) our quotes around last September/October time. I made a point of asking whether they will still be valid in 'a few' months time. There certaintly wasn't a problem.

If I were you I'd start getting those quotes in anytime.

Diny

Glenda
6th March 2005, 01:07 AM
Hi Margaret,

Get those quotes. We did when we only had a rough idea of when we were going. Also, some will take a couple weeks to get back to you. We are negotiating between two companies at the moment and both have us 'pencilled in' for the week before we travel.

Moorf
7th March 2005, 07:17 PM
Has anyone had a quote for just shipping out boxes - approx 20?

Miffy
7th March 2005, 11:59 PM
We got (most of) our quotes around last September/October time. I made a point of asking whether they will still be valid in 'a few' months time. There certaintly wasn't a problem.

If I were you I'd start getting those quotes in anytime.

Diny

Diny
You may wnat to get back to some of these companies I had Pickfords and Curtis round last week to give me a quote and they both said that P&O and Mersk have both put up the shipping costs to NZ & Australia. So the quotes may have a slight increase.

captainxmas
8th March 2005, 01:36 AM
The general shipping costs have recently seen the largest increase in a long time.

Expect to see about $500NZ slapped onto the price.

Apparently Austrailia and Canada got it worst, this information has been given to me at least 6 times in about 3 conversations with Team/Avalon.

I didn't realise I was so slow at understanding fings. :oops:

Bubbles
8th March 2005, 02:22 AM
I didn't realise I was so slow at understanding fings. :oops:

Me neever maite !!!

Karen and Rich Matthews
8th March 2005, 08:49 PM
Hi Guys,

Like Margaret, we're just about to submit our ITA evudence and sorting out our medicals at the same time. We've gone the route of shipping out just essentials, no white goods, no sofas just 3 beds, a dining table and chairs and a wardrobe and a few boxes.

We'll try the companies suggested in the forum and let you know how they come back, hopefully they'll let us use a bit of a container :hopeso

Cheers

Rich :nice1

Moorf
8th March 2005, 10:51 PM
We're also hoping to share a container - we just worked out we need approx 400cubic feet of space whereby a 20ft container has approx 900cubic feet of space.

http://www.foreign-trade.com/reference/ocean.cfm

Nickaweez
8th March 2005, 10:58 PM
We've been looking as well at the options for containers etc...and a few of the companies have rung us and recommended that we don't take our car, even though we wouldn't be able to replace it with an equivalent for the amount we would spend :?

Any ideas as to why this would be...and how have others found taking cars to NZ?

Glenda
9th March 2005, 10:50 PM
We've been told by Crown that shipping costs have just gone up around 40%, and everyone's quotes will be going up. :eek I've looked at the small print on the other quotes received and they all say that the removal company has the right to increase their costs if there are freight shipping line increases. :eek

Don't want to panic anyone here ... am really hoping that what we have heard is not quite correct. :?

Moorf
10th March 2005, 10:56 AM
Right, we got our costs in from GB Liners and will be using them, here are the details - not relevant to those who are shipping over furniture and large items as we sold ours before coming here:-

£1245 to wrap and pack and ship from our storage unit in Sussex (approx 400cubic ft of gear).
3.25% on top for All Risks insurance (does not cover mechanical derangement as the items have been in storage for more than 3 months)

That cost is door to door in a shared container.

Their service has been fab so far - they went to our storage unit with my mother on Tues, we received the quote Wednesday and they are wrapping and packing next Wednesday!

Tanya
10th March 2005, 11:05 AM
Yay Helen.. so the kids and I can watch your container arrive in Lyttelton too!!

Let us know when!! :nice1

Tanya

Moorf
10th March 2005, 11:09 AM
Yay breakfast at Windy Point!! No mother in laws this time though!! :laugh

Tanya
10th March 2005, 11:11 AM
:laugh :laugh :laugh :nice1

jan
11th March 2005, 06:43 AM
I got a folow up call today asking me had i made a decision who we would be using. I explained we hadn't decided yet and was then told that the original quote of 3 weeks had changed.

It has gone up £360 !!!!!!!!!!!

Told me everyone was going to experience the hike in price from any original quotes.


Jan xx

jubjub
11th March 2005, 07:52 AM
We have just got our first online quote today for a 20ft, £3835, from John Mason, waiting on calls/emails back with estimates from other places.

Either they are taking the **** or the prices really have taken a hike!

Will wait and see what others say, hope I can get it lower than that!

leslie
12th March 2005, 03:01 AM
my neighbour works in shipping - he set up nz line some years ago. am going to bug him. the prices thus far are bull!@$%^&*. might ring my v useful dutch guy in toronto. will post anything useful.

Diny
12th March 2005, 04:32 AM
Hey Jubjub... that quote is BS. The lowest I have so far is 3050 plus insurance at 3%. Got another crowd coming on Tuesday to give me another quote, over the phone they have told me 3250 all up .... insurance the lot.

Will keep you posted

Diny

jubjub
12th March 2005, 04:38 AM
Had a slight improvement from Crown, at 3463, which also looks rubbish compared to what you and the others seem to be getting.

Will get a couple more and then start to play with them I think.....

leslie
12th March 2005, 08:03 PM
neighbour has verified that sudden increases are consequence of super-heated chinese economy and rising fuel prices etc. costs have apparently risen by up to 100% across the board for approx 1 year. he says it wont get cheaper.

jonSE
12th March 2005, 08:20 PM
Nickaweez

We've been looking as well at the options for containers etc...and a few of the companies have rung us and recommended that we don't take our car, even though we wouldn't be able to replace it with an equivalent for the amount we would spend :?

Any ideas as to why this would be...and how have others found taking cars to NZ?

There should be no problem shipping cars and they can be put in the same container as your household stuff.

What you need you establish is wether the economics work out. If you intend to have a sole use container and the car will fit in as well then it doesn't cost anything to ship. However you need to consider that it will probably cost a minimum of $1000NZ to get the car out of the container and onto the road legally in NZ. plus you also need to check the LTSA website (sorry can't remember the address) to check the reqirements for entry certification for your specific car. Some used cars built post 86 can't be imported here because they don't meet NZ frontal impact regs. Even though those cars were sold here at the time. (My 91 Range Rover wouldn't have been allowed in now even though the same model was sold here in 1991.

you need to check used car prices here for the car you don't want to leave behind. some are quite surprising. Check out www.trademe.co.nz

The only difficulty I have found so far is that many of the japanese cars were sold with different model names (wether they were new in NZ or used imports) This makes life entertaining.

Would anyone in the UK buy a Mazda Bongo Friendee or a Nissan Homy?

Jon
Waiheke

Glenda
12th March 2005, 08:57 PM
neighbour has verified that sudden increases are consequence of super-heated chinese economy and rising fuel prices etc. costs have apparently risen by up to 100% across the board for approx 1 year. he says it wont get cheaper.

Looks like we could all get a few hundred added to shipping quotes. As I have said before, looking at small print, even if the quote is agreed the removal company can add to it due to shipping company increases. Think we had all better get to NZ pdq. :?

captainxmas
19th March 2005, 08:48 PM
Okay, now I am getting confused:

Team (Who contract work to Whites) quoted me £3050 for a 20ft Reefer.

Whites - £3700 for 20ft sole use.

Methinks you jest m'lord.

:cheers

Timbo
21st March 2005, 06:40 AM
A friend is using this co. to ship his bits and bobs to Oz. http://www.removals-shipping.com/
It may be worth a look for some of you.

Miffy
22nd March 2005, 12:04 AM
The best two company's I found was Curtis & Son (recommend on here) which came out at £2,850 and Allied Pickfords which came out at £3,100 (I can't remember the exact amount but it was around this mark). I did get quote from a total of 5 companies but the other three were either well off the mark or I had a 'funny feeling' about them and was put off.

I preferred the whole package that Pickfords offered and managed to get them down to match the Curtis price. So I was well happy. If they wouldn't do that I woud have been very happy to go with Curtis as I was impressed by them too.

This above is for sole use of a 20ft container from Essex to Duniden, excluding insurance, which will be 3% of the contents value. Also pickford storage charges once over in NZ were very reasonable.

Timbo
29th March 2005, 03:55 AM
A pretty comprehensive list here;
http://www.escapeartist.com/moving/moving.htm

It seems to be an American based site.

Moorf
1st April 2005, 09:17 AM
Now that we have been through the shipping process with GB Liners (to the point of it leaving the UK) I can, so far, recommend them - quick, cheap, friendly and trustworthy.

They packed up our entire storage contents (under the eagle eye of my mother!) in just half a day - the contents left Tilbury one week later (27 March) and will arrive here in Lyttleton Port on 8 May! Whooooosh!

:nice1

Karen and Rich Matthews
29th April 2005, 07:54 PM
Hi Guys,

We worked out that we'll need a third of a container (336 cubic feet) to ship our worldly possessions to Wellington (We decided to leave a fair chunk of our gear here) and were quoted the following prices;

PSS = £1528.00
Allied Pickfords = £1668.00 dropped to £1600.00
GB Liners = £2473.70 dropped to £1790.00
Anglo Pacific = £1720.00

All seem to quote about 2.5% to 3% insurance and all over the usual pack and unpack service.

We liked PSS as they seemed knowledgable about Welly and gave some good advice about the move over so more than likely we'll go with them, their quote certainly worked out the cheapest :clap

Cheers

Rich

Moorf
19th May 2005, 06:49 PM
Ok, we have now been through the pack and ship stage.

I can highly recommend GB Liners. Very efficient, good quote, friendly and helpful. NZ Van Lines (that's who GB Liners use in NZ) were also great - fast, efficient and very helpful.

All our boxes arrived in good condition - only breakage has been a few pieces of glass in some framed pictures so no great saga there.

Everything has arrived now and we had no MAF inspection :clap and consequently no fees :nice1

Another stage over and done with... moving on.. :cheers

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15