[Angel2850]

so - I have been in NZ for a year now, and have my own opinions on the place (which I am not going to go into). Having read some other threads (Best & Worst) it seems viewpoints on this place vary a lot.

I am originally from SA, but then moved to the UK at the age of 21 and have never been back to live...
What I am hoping to find out from any SA's who have made the move is: How does this place's 'lifestyle' compare?
I don't pretend to know what it was like to actually be earning a living, paying a mortgage etc in South Africa, so would like to know how different it really is.
I miss home and as things might not be working out for me here, I think forewarned is forearmed and would like to get as many opinions/idea's/stories as possible before I make any long term decision.
Basically I want to know if as a single, non parent, which country is better to live in - I am well aware of crime being a problem there, but no where have I heard of cops being called to schools 40 times a week.... in ANY other country ever, so who knows, maybe the grass isn't greener?

Thanks for any responses in advance...

[dusk]

I'm not sure the school/police figure is necessarily indication that the country has descended into chaos.. I hope you get some informative responses though, sorry I can't help personally

[Kalla]

hi there

I shall be very interested to hear some of the responses on this post because it is very relevant to our case too.

we too are South africans, lived in the UK for 10 years now and just applied to immigrate to NZ.

We have a child and recently planned a trip back to south africa. we are going in May to visit my parents who still live there for a holiday. I FREAKED out when my mum said to me that when driving around the city/town that I should sit in the back seat next to my child who will be strapped into his car seat. To this, I replied - ok, but why? She replied that in case of a highjacking, I will then have the time to unlock my child from his car seat and get him to safety instead of having the hijackers race off with our car and our child in the back seat.

My parents live in Durban, in a relatively 'safe' and 'wealthy' suburb and we certainly didn't have to worry about these things when we lived there 10 years ago, but seems that you have to be aware of them nowdays. Anyway, personally, I wouldn't return to South africa with my child now to live for good because i would constantly be looking over my shoulder and locking doors to keep us safe and personally, I don't like that feeling of fear all the time. Not saying it's crime free in NZ or UK, but just that it doesn't feel so dangerous or 'in your face' where we live in the UK and we can gladly go for walks in the countryside without huge fear of murder/rape/hijacking etc.

Good luck with your decision, know it's going to be tough!

[andrewp]

Hi There Angel,

I may be a little biased in my reply having just left SA, so I probably still want to believe we may the right move. At the end of the day we moved for 2 reasons - Crime and Children.

We got tried of not feeling safe taking our kids for a walk, living behind 2.4m electric fences and lying awake at night listening to every creak and bump wondering what it was. Also the issues JK&A mention about kids in cars is very real. we even made a point that when travelling alone with one of the kids in the car, that the kid sits behind the drivers seat so that he can be retrieved from the drivers side in the event of a hijacking. We definitely got a feeling that there is a decline in law and order, with almost no respect for authority. This is an impression we had of Zim 10 years ago, and decided to cut our losses now. For me it was really hard to leave family behind, but the thought of a better life for our kids kept us going. Sure, we had an awesome lifestyle, but we have a far better quality of life here.

To try and answer your questions directly:
I don't pretend to know what it was like to actually be earning a living, paying a mortgage etc in South Africa, so would like to know how different it really is.
On the whole we had far more disposable income in SA. Here we are going to have to watch what we spend. However, here there is lots more you can do that doesn't cost money.

Basically I want to know if as a single, non parent, which country is better to live in - I am well aware of crime being a problem there, but no where have I heard of cops being called to schools 40 times a week.... in ANY other country ever, so who knows, maybe the grass isn't greener?
This is really difficult to answer as it goes to perceptions. My personal opinion is that there is crime everywhere. I get the impression that it is report more here in NZ than in SA. Also the severity of the crimes in SA are orders of magnitude higher than here. I also get the impression that crimes get solved here. That is not the norm in SA.

Enough rambling from me. Please realise that these are very much personal impressions I have, but feel free to ask more questions and I will try to be honest.

[Angel2850]

Thanks Andrew and everyone else - Dont be shy Andrew, I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... :o)

I have been doing a bit of research and while I in no way think I have any sort of authority on the place, there are such conflicting ideas out there... did anyone see Getaway the other night? there was the kiwi presenter in the middle of Jo'burg at 10pm, and loving it... and I have heard from others (Jeremy Clarkson did a whole article on it too) saying basically that south africans are a bunch of overexaggerating, poop scared individuals and that there is nothing wrong with the country at all and that tourists should not worry even one little bit....

Now, even knowing what it was like when I lived there, I know that that is rubbish and people like that need their heads read. I know there are risks, and I know that in SA the fact that you have to live with burgular bars, locked security gates, etc etc is a fact of life... but whereas my mother (originally from the UK) could never get used to that, born and raised I find it weird that my windows now don't have bars on them!

Yes, you have to do things slightly differently in SA and crime does make a big difference, but apart from that, is it a happier place to live?

Please feel free to all express exactly how you feel, there will be no slating for negative attitudes in this thread... :o)

[andrewp]

Hi Angel - to be honest, in the dark ages BC (Before Children) we considered moving to NZ a few times but decided on the whole we were better off in SA. Kids have changed all that. I'm guessing, you being single and kid-less, you'd probably on the whole have a far better lifestyle in SA, and possibly even a better quality of life if you chose where to live carefully. We agonised about moving to NZ for years before we finally did it.

Whatever you decide, enjoy the adventure!

[Norwegian Blue]

Hi Angel,

To be honest, I think you really need to answer that question yourself by defining just what it is you want from your life and then work out which place in the world is going to provide the best opportunity of attaining it.

We all move for different reasons. We left SA for the UK in 2001 and are now here. For us the move away from SA was largely an economic one. I had no job (my company went to the dogs) and we needed to move and for us a move to JHB was out of the question. Sure crime also had a part to play. SA is one of the most violent countries in the world. But, there is crime in every country, it's just how much it affects you personally. You can't really make a judgement on a single press report until you understand exactly how that data was collected. i.e are the 40 calls to schools all crime related, or are they through absenteeism and other issues as well? Also, were the calls to a particular geographic area, or widespread? You may be surprised if you did some digging at how often the police are called to schools in SA / UK and for what reason.

For us the UK was ideal. We spent nearly 8 wonderful years there, but we were privileged and the place we lived not representative of the whole UK.

The move here was not pre-meditated, but the chance arose and we took it. Our happiness is largely based on who we are individually and as a family, not where we live. However, if we were unhappy here and were to move again, it would be back to the UK.

The 'lifestyle" we had in SA could have been described as perfect by many. The "lifestyle" we had in the UK would have been envious to many. The "lifestyle" we have here is pretty perfect. But they were/are all completely different!

You say you miss home. But is home a place or people or a mixture. Whenever you go back somewhere, remember that your experiences have changed you and the people you left behind will also have moved on. You may be hankering after a past life / experience that does not exist anymore.

If you can, get hold of 2 books - Third Culture Kids and Raising Global Nomads. They provide good insight into the emotions we go through in moving to another culture.

Good luck in your searching :nice1

[Kalla]

OMG, I just read this article!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/jeremy_clarkson/article5821586.ece

I'm a bit lost for words.

[Waters9944]

My then-boyfriend, a Brit, went on a business trip to a SA branch of his company in Sept 2006. He had to wait for his spending allowance because his company's accountant was held up at gunpoint outside the bank, taking all the company cash. Two days before his trip, a business colleague there was speaking to him on his mobile phone when my BF heard a commotion and a gunshot! The friend narrowly missed being carjacked (and HE had fired the gun at the perp). In Jo'burg, he was also told by colleagues of the common shake-downs by the local police for bribes.

Is this fiction? Because, dude, Johannesburg sounds like a pretty scary place to me.

Norwegian Blue, you stated, "For us the UK was ideal. We spent nearly 8 wonderful years there, but we were privileged and the place we lived not representative of the whole UK.........

The 'lifestyle" we had in SA could have been described as perfect by many. The "lifestyle" we had in the UK would have been envious to many. The "lifestyle" we have here is pretty perfect. But they were/are all completely different!"

When you say 'privileged' do you mean financially? Because I know that that makes all the difference in the world. I have some very wealthy family who live in an exclusive suburb of Miami, Florida. They LOVE it there, but they also live in a gated community with lots of property and space, and lots of other rich people, move in exclusive circles, valet their car everywhere they go, fly privately, do not really mingle with average folk, and so on. I have been to the city many times, and although the climate is nice (altho ungodly hot much of the time) and it is quite beautiful environmentally, you couldn't PAY ME to live there- the crime, the drugs, the transient outlaws, the drug cartels......that is, unless I lived in an ivory tower like my relatives do. I'm sure there is a nice suburb here and there, but...you know how big cities are.

The point is, you can live in almost ANY PLACE nicely, if you have the means. But, I think true portraits are painted by the common folk- what MOST people have to deal with. The wealthy (in ANY country) really have no clue what's really going on. They do not live like the rest of us shmos.

[Norwegian Blue]

Hi Waters,

Yip, privileged because (and please, this is a big generalization and not intended to be offensive) we ended up in a small middle England town of about 6000 people which was predominately made up of upper middle income earners. Thus we had very little of the problems typical of bigger cities. I really had to laugh one day waiting for a haircut and overhearing the discussion of 2 older gents. The one said "... of course we have had our fair share of crime here too. Someone was murdered in the town in 1750"!!!

My kids have often said that the school children here in NZ have very little respect for their teachers compared to the UK. But then on the other hand, my sister was physically abused and constantly intimidated at a school in Southampton that she lasted in the profession for exactly 3 weeks. Two extremes, one country.

Good old Jeremy Clarkson. He had a big mouth about the "hysteria" of identity theft in the UK too, until he suffered personally. Maybe it's time to suggest a strole through the Kruger Park for him ;)

[Angel2850]

I agree that if you have the means to live welll, it doesn't matter where you live, you will be able to make a good life for yourself.

however, unless one of you knows a sugar daddy who would like to sponsor me in this wonderful life of possessions and wealth... its not gonna happen :)

I know that each place is going to be different within a country and that I would have to make my decision very carefully. I feel that by moving to Auckland here in NZ I made a bad decision, and not financially. Obviously being the biggest city the money is here probably more than anywhere else, but I am not sure this area is exactly what most people want out of life and no one seems over the top happy... which when you look at the surrounding areas is a little frightening... the beauty of this place astounds me (hard to say right now as it blows a gale and pours down, but still)

I will never be on the top end of the scale when it comes to money, and to be honest, I don't want to be. I have seen wealth ruin people, I just want to be happy...

Thanks for all your advice and viewpoints... all interesting!

[Bergita]

Ooooh. That article by Jeremy Clarkson just seriously ticked me off. He truly has no idea. The wealthy can always isolate themselves from crime.

Anyway, my 2 cents on this discussion is that at the current time it would be a mistake to live in South Africa. You can still live in a nice neighbourhood, and have a decent lifestyle but you take your life into your hands every time you want to go anywhere. And that stress does take its toll.

We moved to NZ because we didn't want to become a statistic of crime in SA. We were looking for a more peaceful lifestyle. Nothing more than that really, just some peace. And we've found that and more. Our standard of living is pretty much the same, if you look at it financially, but if you look at the whole picture it is a million times better. After a few months here, the stress we'd been living under melted away and we had a clear perspective on what we'd been going through for the first time. We make more of our opportunities, we play more and we talk more.

It makes me very sad sometimes to lose that connection to my home but I can live with it. It's worth it.

[Waters9944]

I know exactly how you guys feel. I've had my share of living with a lot of glances over my shoulder, and I grew up pretty tough because of it. As I mentioned in another thread, I do like who I am, and had I had life any other way, I'd probably be different, less colorful, less adorably sardonic. But, that time is done. What I really need now is PEACE. I know there is crime and congestion everywhere in the world, but let's face it- there's less in NZ, right? The physical beauty is a blessing that hasn't been hacked away to nothingness- it still exists, and to live in a fresh physical environment truly is food for the soul.

I'm done with the overcrowding here. There are more crowded places, I'm sure, but I really want to spend a good few years communing more with nature, and getting away from the masses. Personally speaking, I've had a lot of tragedy and loss in my life, and in taking stock of my life, I am not uncomfortable saying, "This may be the only go-around.....I'm gonna enjoy it!"

From what I've only read about here on the forum (a visit would solidify my opinion, ofc), I am pretty sure I'd like a place FAR out of the way, so Auckland would not be a first choice. I think I'd be a good candidate for an expansion project (isn't NZI favoring work OUTSIDE of the biggest areas?). Altho I like heat in the morning and a clothes dyer ;) I am a pretty simple in my needs. I think work should support your life, not the other way around. I'm happy in my garden (when I can have one again) and the simple comforts of home and family and friends, music, good food....and ofc, my artwork.

On the other hand......I hear Wellington is nice and a bit artsy....plus there's WETA :cool:

[Tesall]

One important point about crime stats, and thats the collection method. Lets use SA, NZ and UK as examples.

In NZ if I rape you, steal your purse.. and then kill you. Thats 3 seperate crimes recorded as such.
In both SA and the UK that is considered 1 crime. The murder.

Also you have issues over wether your crime is even counted. Countries have varying levels of diligence in recording these issues.

Thats the problem with stats, lies damn lies and statistics.

I wont get into a debate as to where is worse, I have never lived in SA, but I would be VERY careful about basing any decision on stats that are collected on wildly varying basis.

[breenik]

I love reading all the commentary on SA. My OH's stepfather is from there, and immigrated to NZ decades ago. I have always wanted to visit, but have let fear keep me away, even so much as canceling a volunteer mission when I was going for my nursing degree (which I never finished, but I digress...).

I hope that moving out of the US will help me shake some of the fear that is so ingrained into us here when it comes to traveling to areas that are seen there as less than ideal or dangerous.