[dharder]

At my kids’ (state primary) school, there are two types of uniforms, culottes and cargo pants. So far, my daughters both wanted the skirt-like culottes, but now one of them wants to wear the pants. Here’s the problem: she is not allowed! Girls cannot wear the cargo pants.

I’ve asked the school for clarification of this policy, and will also point out that the girls’ uniform is more expensive (there is an $8 difference between cargo pants and culottes, which may not strike you as a lot, but we have four kids…), which I think is grossly unfair.

Do your children’s schools have unisex school uniform (ours apparently had till last year)? Do they have a dress code based on sex of the child? Do they give any reasons?

Really interested to know how this is handled here. In the school in London, girls could wear a variety of styles (trousers, skirts, dresses, etc) as long as it conformed to the school colours. I am really not happy with this rule at all.

Daniela

[IanW99]

Sorry can't really help with your answer but thought I would post what is acceptable out our school for girls to wear.

school black tailored trousers worn with black socks
school navy pleated skirt
school navy culottes

Also, it is interesting that boys shorts are $59 whilst girls are onyl $39 and boys trousers are $65 whilst girls are only $60.

So for us, it would appear that it costs more for boys than girls (which is just typical as we have boys).

Ian

[mcacmartin]

The school our kids will be going to (99% sure) have:

Boys - grey shorts or trousers with forest green polo shirts/skivvies

Girls - Skirts (or pinafores for the younger ones) in McKenzie tartan, with white blouses, white or green polo shirts, white or green skivvies.

Doesn't seem to be a trousers option for the girls, but they ARE allowed to wear bike pants under their skirts/dresses

[Sam B]

My youngest daughter doesn't have a school uniform. The older does, and yes it is different to the boys'. Boys wear grey shorts and a pale blue polo shirt, and girls wear either a kilt skirt or culottes and a dark blue polo shirt. It's never occurred to me to think this is unfair before ..... is it unfair? I'm thinking about it now ...... it's not something I feel very strongly about at the moment - hit me with some arguments why I should care Daniela, and I'm sure I will come round.

[YouMeAndThree]

Personally I'm happy for a strict uniform dress code to be in place. It's never occured to me to worry about it being a girls/boys uniform.

Our school uniform consists of polo shirt (long or short sleeved), v-neck sweater, shorts for boys and culottes for girls. In the colder months boys can wear knee length navy sock and girls can wear navy ankle sock or navy tights. I've not yet seen any girls wearing the boys shorts, nor vice versa.

When in the UK and at school myself (if I can remember that far back :D) I went to one CoE school in London with a very strict, detailed school uniform, then moved to a southern comprehensive where the rules surrounding uniform were very woolly and would constantly change as a new fashion craze was worn to school. Personally I thought it looked very scruffy with all different skirt styles and trousers. May be I just have an old fashioned view, but I think the strict dress code and boy/girl styles just looks much better.

[Oregonkiwi]

Our primary school has the same uniform for boys and girls, they all wear the same shorts/trackpants and polo shirts.

[Familyofmonkeys]

My daughters school has a unisex school uniform thankfully. Uniform is actually a bug-bear of mine. When I was at high school a 'committee' of students in my year threatened to take the school to court for sexual discrimination because girls were not allowed to wear trousers and were also not allowed 'long skirts' or thick tights (had to wear those thin ones that snag the moment you put them on) and had to freeze our backsides off every winter. Eventually we won the right to wear trousers too. If my daughter ever does go to a school with such a sexist attitude towards uniform I would simply send her in trousers, just the same as her brothers and argue such silly rules.

[dharder]

Eventually we won the right to wear trousers too. If my daughter ever does go to a school with such a sexist attitude towards uniform I would simply send her in trousers, just the same as her brothers and argue such silly rules.

Well done you! I'm tempted to do the same, but will now enquire further, and then see what possible reasons they could have.

I like uniforms, I think they are a good thing, and on the whole not enforced rigidly enough (at least I thought so in England). However, different clothing based on the child's sex is just silly. What about a pair of cargo pants makes this a male bit of clothing? Why should there be any reason at all why your sex dictates what you can wear? Why is there a need to separate in that way, why do you need to have these obvious markers?

There is no reason at all why not everyone in the school should wear the same uniform.

I'll step off my soapbox now (but will get back on it dealing with the school :))

Daniela

[mylesdw]

Well I'm not a teacher but if I was, I'm sure that being able to tell the difference between boys and girls easily and from a distance would be very useful.

[JandM]

Well I'm not a teacher but if I was, I'm sure that being able to tell the difference between boys and girls easily and from a distance would be very useful.My mind's boggling - why would it be useful? (And I was a teacher!)

Actually, upon further consideration, it's usually absolutely obvious which is which by the way they stand, move and group. Quite often you can even tell WHO you're looking at, even from the far side of the sports field, just from their walk.

[WANZLittles]

I like the idea of school uniforms, do you just buy 5 sets? that could add up quickly. this will be of concern since we have children.

[YouMeAndThree]

I like the idea of school uniforms, do you just buy 5 sets? that could add up quickly. this will be of concern since we have children.


Do you mean 5 sets for each child? I couldn't afford to do that as there is no Asda or Tesco :D My 2 school-age children have one pair of culottes and 2 polo shirts each and with the change in temp I'm going to buy them a jumper each too. The only thing they have 5 each of is socks :D (I stocked up on loads of white school socks before leaving the UK.....school socks for my two are black :no)

[dharder]

being able to tell the difference between boys and girls easily and from a distance would be very useful.

Why? What possible difference would that make to anything you would say or think in that context (or most other contexts I can think of)?

Honestly, I cannot think of any situation at all where the sex and/or gender of a child should make any difference to me whatsoever.

So if we dress them differently based on sex, what's next? Only black skirts for the ones with red hair? Only one shoe for the ones with glasses? Less pay for the ones who wear skirts? I'm being facetious (except for less pay, that one seems to be here to stay), but I'm sure you get my point.

Daniela

[dharder]

I like the idea of school uniforms, do you just buy 5 sets? that could add up quickly. this will be of concern since we have children.

We have 5 shirts for each child, and two pairs trousers/culottes, and one each of the warmer fleece jumpers. But most of the stuff gets washed everyday anyway, so we could probably get away with fewer shirts.

To kit the girls out last October when they started school cost us $500, including rain coat but no PE or swimming stuff.

Daniela

[Tia Maria]

My daughters school has a unisex school uniform thankfully. Uniform is actually a bug-bear of mine. When I was at high school a 'committee' of students in my year threatened to take the school to court for sexual discrimination because girls were not allowed to wear trousers and were also not allowed 'long skirts' or thick tights (had to wear those thin ones that snag the moment you put them on) and had to freeze our backsides off every winter. Eventually we won the right to wear trousers too. If my daughter ever does go to a school with such a sexist attitude towards uniform I would simply send her in trousers, just the same as her brothers and argue such silly rules.

We did the same at my school! The girls had to wear kilts which were irritating at the best of times and freezing in the winter - plus they made us wear big knickers for sport, (yes this is senior school!), and we did some of our runs outside the school so everyone could see.

So we, the students, campaigned for the option to wear trousers and shorts and eventually won, (just as I left, but I was still proud we'd achieved it). We campaigned on 'sense' rather than 'sexism' as we noticed quite early that the 'sexism' tag turned people off. We also sold it as an options things and said the boys were perfectly welcome to wear the kilts if they wanted - strange that none took us up on that offer.

It helped that a couple of the other local schools, (including the one that was best academically), already had this option in place. Get the kids to do it, its a great lesson for them to learn, get them to request a school debate. Another great argument is to ask if this would be permitted in a work place that women were only allowed ot wear skirts or products that look like skirts. Ask them if they are against trousers as they believe they are not feminine enough? They'll have no good answer to that - oooh its all coming back to me now.

I should point out at the same time the boys were campaigning for the right to wear studs in their ears, (this was the eighties!), I think they were allowed to wear one in the end. I think hair length was also an issue - it seems so funny now that the boys were fighting for the right to have mullets! :D

Oh the good old days...

Cheers

Tia

[JandM]

I realize the following comment isn't exactly relevant to the original post, so feel free to ignore a personal whinge.;)

[Having been at school and then done a teaching career in the UK, obviously I'm well used to the idea of school uniform, but I don't like it. I well remember my feelings of bitter resentment at being made to wear things that were uncomfortable and against my taste. Then, as a teacher, I had to follow the official line and chivvy children for breaches of the uniform rules, although I felt this wasn't at all a good use of my time and energy. What's more important, whether Tommy Atkins's trousers are the correct shade of grey, and he hasn't rolled up his shirt-sleeves, or whether he's attending to the lessons, and learning give-and-take with his peer-group? By insisting on gathering the young into schools to educate them, we are already imposing something many of them wouldn't choose to do. If children are decently covered and suitably dressed so they can get through the school activities without problems or danger, what game exactly are we playing by finding something else to criticize them for?]

[dharder]

Having been at school and then done a teaching career in the UK, obviously I'm well used to the idea of school uniform, but I don't like it.

I've gone through 13 years of schooling without uniform, and I always wished we'd had one (it is not done in Germany, and very actively opposed on the whole). I felt the pressure to dress 'fashionably' and expensively was immense, particularly from 12-16 (either it got easier after that, or I just didn't care anymore).

I like the idea in principle of a uniform, and I also think that there is only a point if it is rigidly enforced. If you can still tell who bought the expensive blue sweater as opposed to the cheap blue sweater, it becomes meaningless. But I don't see why a school uniform can't just be something comfortable and functional, that enables children to stay warm, move around, and have it washed easily so they can get dirty without worrying about it.

Daniela

[JandM]

Interesting. I had one and wished I hadn't, you didn't have one and wished you had. The grass is always greener, maybe.:)

[dharder]

Interesting. I had one and wished I hadn't, you didn't have one and wished you had. The grass is always greener, maybe.:)

Yes, could very well be. Except that no one I knew growing up ever wished they had had a uniform, or ever thought it was a good idea. So maybe I'm the only freak who thinks, after having grown up without one, that it would have been a good idea :)

Daniela

[mylesdw]

If children are decently covered and suitably dressed so they can get through the school activities without problems or danger, what game exactly are we playing by finding something else to criticize them for?


As I mentioned, I'm no teacher but I grew up in that environment because my mother was a teacher all her working life. Her take on this was that there are a significant number of parents who have NO IDEA what suitable and appropriate dress for school means. Having a uniform just made it easier for everyone.

[Jo Jo]

Yes, could very well be. Except that no one I knew growing up ever wished they had had a uniform, or ever thought it was a good idea. So maybe I'm the only freak who thinks, after having grown up without one, that it would have been a good idea :)

Daniela

I had a uniform at school, albeit a very simple and practical one (no ties, silly prints or anything like that), and I was very glad of it at the time. I missed it when I went into sixth form and no longer had to wear uniform. In fact, when we were in the sixth form, we campaigned to have a sixth form uniform, but the teachers weren't willing to impose one on us, and said we should just agree one between ourselves, which of course we couldn't do (probably just as well as it was the 80s - I don't think successive generations would have thanked us for it!)

[BkyMonster]

I approve of uniforms in general (not typically done in US as will stunt the students free speech and freedom of expression, whatever IMO. I've seen too much infringement on basic rights NOT involving clothing in schools to believe that load :roll.) but I've wondered about the pant/skirt thing. They really all ought to be allowed pants IMO.

[YouMeAndThree]

They really all ought to be allowed pants IMO.

Coming from the UK I'm still at the schoolgirl snigger stage with pants :D (sorry)

[BkyMonster]

Trousers then?
I have the vague idea it's a bit of a naughty word but still a bit lost on that one...

AFAIK pants are what dogs do when they are hot, and also long loose leg coverings :D

[Sam B]

Oh ok, yeah I get it now, and yeah it is unfair. Hmmmm, not sure whether to go on a crusade though, as have many things I want to take the Middle School on about - lack of activities at play-times for non sporty kids, unhealthy food on sale, etc, and my daughter likes wearing skirts so would wonder why I was kicking up a stink about something she's not bothered about. Also neither sex get to wear particularly sensible clothes in my opinion as the poor boys have to wear a ridiculous shorts and knee socks combo in the winter and I frankly wouldn't let my daughter out the house DEAD looking like that.

[mylesdw]

Trousers then?
I have the vague idea it's a bit of a naughty word but still a bit lost on that one...

AFAIK pants are what dogs do when they are hot, and also long loose leg coverings :D

Quite an interesting one because we (English) still routinely use the term underpants which implies that we must has called trousers pants also at some stage. So underpants contracted to become pants and pants became trousers. Makes Spongebob much more amusing; I wonder how he gets his trousers on.

Also fashionable as a sort of insult a few years ago; as in "that idea is complete pants!"

[dharder]

Oh ok, yeah I get it now, and yeah it is unfair. Hmmmm, not sure whether to go on a crusade though, as have many things I want to take the Middle School on about -

Yes, we are trying to figure out how far to take this, too, as indeed there are other issues of course to be addressed.

However, at this particular school, I see this as an extension (or a symptom?) of a wider reaching attitude towards boys/girls and gender equality that I think needs addressing quite desperately, and this may just be the most visible starting point.

But I haven't decided yet just how much of a fuss to kick up over this. Personally, I find it shocking and never ever dreamt of being in a position where I have to tell my daughter, sorry, no you can't wear trousers because you are a girl. Not in my wildest dreams.

We'll see, I'll keep you updated. And can you let me know how far you get with your issues, as some of those are ours, too :)

Daniela

[JandM]

What are the gender equality laws like in NZ? I have the feeling that in the UK, you could well be able to get some support from them in a case like this.

[WANZLittles]

I approve of uniforms in general (not typically done in US as will stunt the students free speech and freedom of expression, whatever IMO. I've seen too much infringement on basic rights NOT involving clothing in schools to believe that load :roll.) but I've wondered about the pant/skirt thing. They really all ought to be allowed pants IMO.

Thats one of the reason I like the idea too, I can't stand all those kids walking around with pants and shirts two sizes too big, and pants hanging around the mid thigh.

[mylesdw]

Why? What possible difference would that make to anything you would say or think in that context (or most other contexts I can think of)?


There are various activities at school that ARE segregated: toilets, changing rooms, some sports. Being able to see at a glance that the right pupils are in the right place without having to know them all and see their faces might be quite helpful. Furthermore, knowing the sex of a child makes them twice as easy to identify (assuming a co-ed school).



Honestly, I cannot think of any situation at all where the sex and/or gender of a child should make any difference to me whatsoever.


What an extraordinary statement! Are you suggesting that you would regard a boy coming round for a sleepover with your daughter as no different from a girl?



So if we dress them differently based on sex, what's next? Only black skirts for the ones with red hair? Only one shoe for the ones with glasses? Less pay for the ones who wear skirts? I'm being facetious (except for less pay, that one seems to be here to stay), but I'm sure you get my point.


I like your drift! How about dressing according to IQ? The bright kids could be in strong primary colours and the dim ones in shades of grey and brown.

[JandM]

There are various activities at school that ARE segregated: toilets, changing rooms, some sports. Being able to see at a glance that the right pupils are in the right place without having to know them all and see their faces might be quite helpful. Furthermore, knowing the sex of a child makes them twice as easy to identify (assuming a co-ed school).As I said above, I know from experience that this recognition really doesn't depend on clothing.

[Angel2850]

Ok - I have some pretty strong opinions on this subject and I really hope that nothing offends anyone - if it does, sorry 'bout that!

I had to wear a uniform (in south africa, not only did we all have to wear teh same uniform, it all came from one of three stores, so you had to all look the same).
Our uniform was strictly enforced (to the point that your skirt was not allowed to be more than 4cm above your knee when kneeling on the ground). Socks were only allowed to be a certain colour, and height on the leg.... if it was winter you had to wear your blazer, and if for extra warmth you wanted to wear a jumper, (had to be school certified) your blazer had to go over the top of it.... and if you left the school ground not looking ship shape, or dared to try and scarper home in your sports kit you were likely to be spotted by a teacher and sent back to school to change....

Haircuts/colours were also closely monitored, and I myself had many hours in 'uniform detention' (which was basically your whole lunch break in detention) for dying my hair - blonde... no weird colours, just blonde. Jewellry was monitored, and we were allowed studs or sleepers, gold or silver, and one watch, nothing around our necks, no rings, no other jewellry at all....

and like every other kid in the world who has those sorts of rules place, we rebelled, and got punished... and eventually it wasn't worth the effort. I can remember having a chat with a teacher who was a very good friend who told me that one day I would realise the importance of uniform, and the strictness that surrounded it in my school....


and he was right....

Lets be honest, look at societies where school uniforms aren't compulsory (I am probably going to upset one or two here), but lets take the US for example. I assume (being none the wiser) that most schools in the US don't have any sort of uniform, and those that do its a very 'wear any black pants/skirt, white shirt' type of thing.... and look at the way their kids behave...

Wearing a uniform, going to school, abiding by rules teaches children a healthy respect for authority and lets them know during those developmental years that they can't just 'do whatever the hell they please' and that there will be consequences to their actions.
If someone misbehaved in school and no one would own up to having done xyz... we ALL got punished! There are lessons to be learnt in every aspect of school life, your kids don't go to school to only learn their subject, they go to school to learn how to socialise, how to behave with other people and to turn out to be a well rounded individual... expressing themselves and wearing what they want, being who they are all comes later (or on weekends) but what sort of person will they be if they have no idea/respect/ or understanding of 'not being in charge'.

Maybe on a day to day basis it does seem very argh, can't think of the right word... domineering, dominating, whatever, but in the long run I think it works out...

Plus, if they were allowed to wear anything to school you parents would be footing a much larger bill so that they can 'keep up' wiith the Jones'

Just wanted to add - for the most part I agree that girls should be allowed to wear trousers... we moved to coulottes in my day and I believe they are now wearing trousers at my old school... there is no need for children to freeze or not be comfortable in school unform....

[sizzlingbadger]

I have to say an interesting topic :nice1

Our kids all go to Catholic School here and the uniform is reasonably strict. I have to say I can't agree with girls wearing the shorts as they are (frankly) horrible :D Plus there's no benefit, boys wear thin shorts in summer and the thick ones in winter with long socks. Girls have a summer dress and then a thick pinafore in winter with tights.

In secondary school yes I think a versatile uniform would be better. I remember being at secondary school and fighting to get girls to wear trousers as well, funny thing is when it came in none of us dared to, we kept wearing the skirts :laugh

Our local secondary here is terrible for the uniform, the skirts on girls are so short you can see their underwear, some of the boys wear grandad slippers, shirts are all messy, really untidy and for me not a good outward appearance for the school either. Now seriously considering looking at sending my kids else where as I feel the school doesn't care enough about itself or the students to let them be walking around like that, IMO.

I much prefer the uniform to no uniform having spoken to another local school here. The principal was saying when he started at this school they had no uniform and there was a lot of bullying going on with those who didn't have the right clothes/shoes, when they put in to place a very lax uniform attitudes changed and the bullying began to subside very quickly, obviously with all the kids looking the same. This is a primary school and it was from the ages of 5 upwards that were being bullied :uhoh

Whereas the school ours go to when they have a mufti day they all get to wear what they want and there's no bullying for those that don't have the latest gear. Some of the older ones 11/12 turn up in holey trousers, hand me down clothes and I like that attitude.

[Waters9944]

I agree with Angel (again).

Yes, in the States, for the most part, public school kids are NOT required to wear a uniform. Private schools usually do. I wore a uniform when I attended Catholic school for primary school (but here, parents buy the uniforms). I had ALL the same rules she mentioned about hair, length of skirt, all the rest. It didn't bother me too much, except we HAD to wear a skirt which SUCKED for a tomboy like me who ran around playing soccer and baseball during recess. (we wore shorts underneath to compensate, fyi). But my parents missed my uniform when I entered public high school. more $$ by far.

I think, however, that uniforms are a really good idea. My last teaching position had a problem with gangs, and lots of poor kids (altho, many still wore expensive stuff because their priorities were askew, as well as the usual pressure to impress) were very concerned with popular culture and fashion....lots of bling and leather and gold. Not to mention the (always) ridiculously-priced sneakers. Kids are especially susceptible to the 'importance" or trends....staying cool can bankrupt you!

Also, as a teacher, I spent a lot of time asking guys to pull up their pants because I didn't wanna see their tighty whiteys, or girls to pull their skirts down and their collars up....and I'm not a prude, but some of these girls look like they should be on corners, not in classrooms. (Parents, where art thou?).

BUT, the parents wanted the proposed dress code...an easy uniform, with just a mandatory tan pant with red or green or white shirt (school colors-not GANG colors).

Unfortunately, since the Board of Education couldn't enforce it, the kids didn't comply. Sad, really, because I think it would take care of a lot of problems....especially money.

[Parsley]

I haven't got a problem with the enforcement of wearing a school uniform, but I do have a problem with the whole "girls can't wear trousers" malarkey. Why on earth not? Both boys and girls should have the option of skirts/trousers or shorts/cargo pants. If this was enforced in a workplace, I'd be anticipating tribunals and law suits. It's sexist and for no particular good reason I can see.

I can only speak from personal experience here, but I remember being made to wear our (strict) regulation skirts and between the ages of 10 and 18, when I finally left, loathing every day of the grey scratchy horror :exit. Girls get enough opportunity or pressures to be body conscious - if anyone else was the short fat kid at school desperately wanting not to have to wear an unflattering skirt that showed off your chunky legs, you'll probably know where I'm coming from on this.

[Waters9944]

Yeah, I agree about the skirt BS. When I went, it was a long time ago. But now, there's no reason for it not to be more asexual. Especially since girls are more athletic these days.

[LesleyS]

Digressing slightly from the original post about girls being allowed to wear the same pants as boys - my personal bugbear about uniforms at our particular school is the COST - It's extortionately high, and no choice of cheaper outlets to purchase a similar style in the same colour elsewhere - I don't know how parents of 3 or more siblings manage to afford it without some mega passing down involved etc!

[Familyofmonkeys]

I haven't got a problem with the enforcement of wearing a school uniform, but I do have a problem with the whole "girls can't wear trousers" malarkey. Why on earth not? Both boys and girls should have the option of skirts/trousers or shorts/cargo pants. If this was enforced in a workplace, I'd be anticipating tribunals and law suits. It's sexist and for no particular good reason I can see.

Absolutely!!

[WANZLittles]

Lets be honest, look at societies where school uniforms aren't compulsory (I am probably going to upset one or two here), but lets take the US for example. I assume (being none the wiser) that most schools in the US don't have any sort of uniform, and those that do its a very 'wear any black pants/skirt, white shirt' type of thing.... and look at the way their kids behave.. this falls back on the parents taking a active role


BUT, the parents wanted the proposed dress code...an easy uniform, with just a mandatory tan pant with red or green or white shirt (school colors-not GANG colors).:nice1