[seattle]

We've been here in Chch for about 5 months and we've decided to go back to the U.S. Many considerations went into our decision- but for the most part - we have found that although we really like NZ, its just not a compelling place to live long term as we thought it would be. Without going into too much detail, a big part of our decision is that our kids are not challenged in the schools here- the curriculum is at least two years behind what they were doing in the states. I think if we would have moved here when the kids were younger- this would have not been such a big issue since they wouldn't have known any better. We have talked to other Americans with older kids who have found the same thing- but have come to terms with it since there are other things about living here that make up for this. I am not necessarily faulting the NZ education system- its just not great fit for our kids. We did a tremendous amount of research before coming here (2 trips for me and my kids, 5 trips for my husband) so I don't think that anything we "learned" could have prepared us for the reality of our experience. (Although sometimes I wish we would have listened to our "instincts" more and not become so caught up in the whole immigration process- after that grueling process its difficult to pass up the the opportunity to come to NZ when you get PR!). We do question whether we chose the "right" city but again, we did our best to research that as well. Timing is everything and things might have turned out a bit differently if we would have come here 5 years earlier. Well at least we know that we gave it a go- and won't have any regrets of not trying.

Good luck to everyone who contributes to this blog and thanks for all of your help through this journey. :cheers

[Arwen]

This must have been a difficult decision for you to make after such a short amount of time spent here in NZ. I wish you all the best for your return journey to the US. :nice1

[Carey]

Would be interested if you'd like to tell us the ages of your kids? Presume High School age? We're also very aware that High School , so far, doesn't appear to be at all challenging but does it matter? Plenty of Kiwi's go onto Uni, go inot professional jobs, so is there a rush to get ahead? Agree though that for younger kids, the curriculum is great.......

[JandM]

All good wishes.:nice1

[NikT]

Best wishes.:nice1

Nick.:cheers

[victoria24]

best of luck in the US and for the future

[M-Squared]

Well, I'm sorry you're choosing to leave NZ after such a short time. One of THE top reasons we left the US (far-west affluent Chicago suburbs) was that we did NOT want our daughter going through the crappy education system there.

What age are your children? I found the US education system to be really dumbed-down. I, for one, am extremely glad that my child won't be educated there. Don't flame me for that, as I am entitled to my opinion, too. Uni will take the normal 3 years here instead of 4 years in the US, as the first year (in the US) is spent doing general subjects as children don't go into enough depth in the years before age 18 to be able to discover what they're good at.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but my child has been excelling here. In the US, she wondered why all the other children in kindergarten were "so stupid" and didn't know how to read by the time they were 5 1/2. I was reading, as my daughter was, by 4 1/2, and I don't really think there's anything very exceptional in that. In kindergarden in the US, she was apalled that the others didn't know their alphabet, even, at almost 6 years of age, or know how to count from 1 to 10. She hated having massive crayons as she was on to regular pens and pencils, too. It seemed incredibly backwards in the US.

Just my $0.02. Many will probably find this harsh, but the US education system is most certainly not all it's cracked up to be (unless you happen to be extremely rich). Please... don't let that be why you move back to the US. Unless you're massively rich and can actually afford to send them to college (uni), of course. When I was pregnant, we consulted several financial advisors, and pretty much when she was born, we would need the equivalent of US$250,000 (yes, half a MILLION dollars!) at the time of her birth, to be able to send her to uni.

Not my idea of fun for anyone, let alone a good and fair education system.

Like I said, my $0.02.

Ta.

[Shones]

Good luck on your move back to the US, thanks for sharing.

Good luck to everyone who contributes to this blog and thanks for all of your help through this journey[/QUOTE]


A nice way to end your post :cheers.

[Ana&Steve]

Sorry to hear things aren't working out in NZ. Hope returning home gives you everything you want.

Funny thing (maybe I've mentioned it before) but if we can't ever get to NZ, upstate WA is our next choice:nice1

[seattle]

Would be interested if you'd like to tell us the ages of your kids? Presume High School age? We're also very aware that High School , so far, doesn't appear to be at all challenging but does it matter? Plenty of Kiwi's go onto Uni, go inot professional jobs, so is there a rush to get ahead? Agree though that for younger kids, the curriculum is great.......

We have 3 daughters that are in school years 10, 8, and 4. I can understand why some people don't understand our opinion about our experience with the schools. Our situation is unique to our family. The schools in the U.S. vary immensely from state to state, district to district, public vs. private, etc. We happened to come from what is perceived as one of the "best" school districts in WA and my two oldest daughters had been attending a private school over the past year. They also attended an international school in Europe for 18 months a few years back- plus my youngest daughter attended public school in So. Calif before we moved to WA. (so I feel like we have a lot of perspective). For better or worse- my kids are the type that are not happy when they aren't challenged at school. My oldest daughter was moved up a year to year 11 curriculum- both are in the GATE program- and they are involved in sports, music, etc. but its getting to the point that they are dreading going to school b/c they are so frustrated. They rarely have homework (not that we are proponents of massive amounts of homework) and feel like academics just aren't valued as much as say...athletics. The school has been very flexible about trying to get them into more challenging programs- but that does not replace the day to day curriculum. Again we put a lot of time in researching different schools- but it became clear after a few months that this isn't working out for our kids. Believe me, one of the reasons we wanted to come to NZ is for our kids to have a more "well rounded" education- where the focus wasn't entirely on academics, preparing for state tests, AP classes, etc. However we weren't prepared for the pendulum to be swung so far to the other side and again - our kids are old enough to know that this isn't for them. Anyway I know that education can be a touchy subject and its all relative to each family's situation and experiences- and I would say that as long as your kids are happy and flourishing, then it doesn't really matter how "great" the school is... Anyway, this is not the only reason we are going back but I thought it may be helpful to others to mention...:)

Ana & Steve- yes WA is a nice place to live..except for the rain!

[clairelouise]

I think you're very brave to make the decision to go back. Good luck for the future, and I hope it works out for you.

[Wooly_Cow]

Maybe I should start a new thread but as the quality of the education system was mentioned here I thought I’d comment.

Having lived in 4 countries now, one of the most emotive subjects is the quality of education.

However like one post mentioned perhaps we need to take the long view. As a manager previously responsible for recruitment, if a candidate had a good degree from London, Berlin, Sydney or Wellington universities I would have regarded them as being of equal weight. For an example, my GP in the UK was Kiwi educated and was great. So in my view, there is little wrong with the tertiary education system (unless some one wants to dispute my view on this).

Either the universities themselves in the first year do a good job at bring students up to speed or the NCEA Level 3 system prepares candidates for university. Equally the NCEA Level 1 must do likewise for entry into level 2 and 3.

In short the education system here delivers in qualifications accepted worldwide (NCEA is accepted by all universities I looked at including Oxford and Harvard).

If the way the students attain these qualifications is perceived as being ‘less challenging’ maybe this is a good thing. I certainly would have preferred that the UK system didn’t over test the children like it is currently doing.

[dharder]

Believe me, one of the reasons we wanted to come to NZ is for our kids to have a more "well rounded" education- where the focus wasn't entirely on academics, preparing for state tests, AP classes, etc. However we weren't prepared for the pendulum to be swung so far to the other side and again

With the caveat that I have always been and continue to be underwhelmed by NZ and never wanted to move here, I did have high hopes for the children’s schooling. I’m sure I’ve mentioned it before, but it was the main reason why I agreed to the move at all.

I am really disappointed in the academic side of things here. I’m not a pushy parent, but a lot of what they do here is far below the level of their European counterparts. Which I think is okay if we decide to stay here, but I’m worried about moving back to Europe. And we had a very difficult inner city type primary school in East London, and have a wealthy suburb type school now.

My sons fit in without a problem when we moved here, the substandard UK primary school more than adequately provided them with the level of education required here (and I did worry about that a lot).

These are obviously my impressions, but we’ve experienced primary school in 3 countries so far, and although the playground here may be the nicest, overly academic it ain’t…

Daniela

[Kanga]

seattle, until last year I would have said five months is not long enough but now I've got the benefit of having emigrated twice and been through the normal process of homesickness against the 'soul certainty' that I'm in the wrong place and so I feel and think differently and have much more empathy for people making the decision to leave early on. If you know NZ is not for you, if you're really certain, then wind the experience up and go back to where you feel you belong and very, very good luck to you :) You meet far too many people who get 'stuck' where they really don't feel they belong- it's easily done- you feel you ought to give it a fair innings and then the kids are in high school and reluctant or a good job opportunity demands another couple of years. Then the kids are in uni and make lives here and you face the impossibly hard situation of either moving away from your adult kids or remaining somewhere you don't belong-

Get out before you get in too deep is worth bearing in mind for anyone who 'knows' it isn't for them. That feeling is quite different from the rollercoaster process of settling, which in itself can be awful and confusing but isn't the same as the deep soul knowledge that NZ/Oz/wherever just isn't for you and yours :)

The only proviso I would add is be sure. Be very sure that what you're experiencing is the latter because I moved to Oz (for reasons largely unrelated to NZ, which I had gone quite far down the road of belonging in and was largely pretty pleased with) and am now going through the process of returning, which would be easy but for my mother living here. To put family through the 'leaving' twice is very harsh and something I deeply regret.

Good luck to you and yours whatever you decide :)

[RJLink]

Lori--

Sorry it didn't work out in Christchurch for you. I support your decision, because it's really not good for kids to feel unchallenged in school. I wonder if Miraleste Intermediate might suit...?

(Sorry for the inside reference, Forumites. Seattle and I are from the same hometown and went to the same schools way back when.)

[seattle]

Lori--

Sorry it didn't work out in Christchurch for you. I support your decision, because it's really not good for kids to feel unchallenged in school. I wonder if Miraleste Intermediate might suit...?

(Sorry for the inside reference, Forumites. Seattle and I are from the same hometown and went to the same schools way back when.)

Ah even in NZ do we have six degrees of separation!!! (or is it 5 degrees these days? :) )I still can't believe I found someone on this forum who hung out with a lot of the people I knew back in high school! Well, I'm afraid its back to the rainy pacific northwest for us (I will miss the sun we've had here!) If only we had "thought" of moving to NZ way back when when we only had to think about ourselves. Good luck and keep in touch! :cheers L

[Tomsk]

Good luck with the move back, I hope it all goes smoothly for you.

[Sam B]

Thanks for your honest and well presented opinions. It's really interesting reading your perceptions of NZ education, it's worked so well for us, but I respect your well-considered views. I wish you well with what must be a very difficult time.

[osmyth]

This interests me as to people's views of the NZ education system.
From a purely statistical point of view I've just looked at the Oxford University (UK) entrance requirements for an NZ qualification and it's NCEA Level 3 with Excellence.
However, the % getting Excellence (in 2007) is 2.5% compared to 25% getting a grade A at 'A' level in the UK, which the Uni requires for home students. (Merit is 11% and Achieved is 40%, implying a not-Achieved/Fail is 46%)

Not got my head round what all that implies yet, but sure it'll come to me soon!

[osmyth]

This interests me as to people's views of the NZ education system.
From a purely statistical point of view I've just looked at the Oxford University (UK) entrance requirements for an NZ qualification and it's NCEA Level 3 with Excellence.
However, the % getting Excellence (in 2007) is 2.5% compared to 25% getting a grade A at 'A' level in the UK, which the Uni requires for home students. (Merit is 11% and Achieved is 40%, implying a not-Achieved/Fail is 46%)

Not got my head round what all that implies yet, but sure it'll come to me soon!

Thinking about this some more, i'm not comparing apples with apples!
The 2.5% getting Excellence is more like someone getting straight A's or AAB at 'A' level (50 credits of the 80 must be at Excellent grading).
Using some rough numbers the people getting straight A's is just under 5% in the UK.

[seattle]

Thanks to everyone who have responded with their opinions, advice and support. We are lucky that we can "unwind" pretty easily- we're getting a refund on the kids' school tuition that we prepaid, didn't buy a house (made an offer a few months back but thankfully it didn't go through!) and just sold one of our cars yesterday (one to go- if anyone is interested in a new Honda cr-v?). Our stuff is still sitting in our container so not much packing to be done (but am a bit worried that the container contents are staying dry). Once we made the final decision, we feel like a huge load is off our shoulders and look forward to enjoying our last few months here, traveling to Austalia, etc.

As for the discussions on education in NZ- maybe someone should start another thread (I'm sure a lot already exist). I don't know what to say except that this is one aspect that has been the most disappointing for us. I'm sure one could argue the merits of the NCEA system either way- there are so many variables and its all relative. Unfortunately I think this aspect is an "unknown" until you experience it! :cheers

[Scotty69]

Hi Seattle
Thank you for your honest post which I have enjoyed reading, good luck on your move back to the US.:nice1

[seattle]

btw- may have some electrical stuff to give away (free) to anyone in Chch area who is interested - things are only a few months old and no point taking it back to the U.S.- phone, fan, etc... I'll post specifics later as we get closer to our departure date.

[Wooly_Cow]

This interests me as to people's views of the NZ education system.
From a purely statistical point of view I've just looked at the Oxford University (UK) entrance requirements for an NZ qualification and it's NCEA Level 3 with Excellence.
However, the % getting Excellence (in 2007) is 2.5% compared to 25% getting a grade A at 'A' level in the UK, which the Uni requires for home students. (Merit is 11% and Achieved is 40%, implying a not-Achieved/Fail is 46%)

Not got my head round what all that implies yet, but sure it'll come to me soon!

The percentage of students getting three A's at A level is about 10% but that doesn't tell the whole story because of course not all of those are offered a place. The issue maybe more to do with the 'dumbing down' of the UK's top marks (A's are getting easier to get) than NZ school system being behind. Bascially Oxford are saying to students of both countires 'You need to get the best results you can get to be considered'....and the best in the UK is 3 A's and in NZ is Excellence.

My point is New Zealand appears to produce it's fair share of engineers, lawyers, medics, scientists etc. from it's Universities, who appear to be of a good standard compared internationaly, so maybe the education system viewed 'end to end' isn't that bad.

To try and say students are behind or in front at any stage during that process could be misleading....for example at the same stage UK kids were being subjected to their first external tests or exams (age 7 - yes I know it's stopped now), many countries have only just sent their kids to school!

[mgf]

Good luck on your return to the USA and wishing you the best. I know it is a tough decision to make and only you know what is best for you and your family in the end.

[Wooly_Cow]

Yeah, sorry for going on about education....most important thing for you guys (in fact the ONLY thing) is to be happy, so best of luck with your move and I hope you find what you are looking for :)

[DizzyF]

Hope you settle back into life in the US. I agree every school is different....I went to University both in the UK and the US and my experience in the US was that it was really dumbed down. I easily got a 4.0 GPA, but I never got great grades in UK!!

Reality is that if everyone is not happy it won't work out...my OH (a Kiwi!) wants to return to live in UK one day! Maybe our kids will have a mix of schooling too.

[seattle]

Hope you settle back into life in the US. I agree every school is different....I went to University both in the UK and the US and my experience in the US was that it was really dumbed down. I easily got a 4.0 GPA, but I never got great grades in UK!!

Reality is that if everyone is not happy it won't work out...my OH (a Kiwi!) wants to return to live in UK one day! Maybe our kids will have a mix of schooling too.

yes it is interesting how Universities can vary in the U.S and I suppose it does depend on the major (my OH had a similar experience where he easily got good grades at his first university- but transferred to another uni that was much more difficult). I'm not looking forward to the whole university application process for my kids- but luckily that's a few years off. I think it's great if kids get the opportunity to have different multi-cultural experiences- I think it will make them more rounded individuals :nice1

[WANZLittles]

Ana & Steve- yes WA is a nice place to live..except for the rain!Eastern Washington has four seasons.:nice1

[Tesall]

These threads comparing education systems aways confuse me.

The only way we can judge education systems with even a slim amount of accuracy is to compare exam results in exams that all the students take from various countries and NZ students consistantly outperform UK students in those measures.

Lerts look at the expert PISA review, I will just highlight the executive summary.


Finland, with an average of 563 score points, was the highest-performing country on the PISA 2006 science scale.
Six other high-scoring countries had mean scores of 530 to 542 points: Canada, Japan and New Zealand and the partner countries/economies Hong Kong-China, Chinese Taipei and Estonia. Australia, the Netherlands, Korea, Germany, the United Kingdom, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Austria, Belgium and Ireland, and the partner countries/economies Liechtenstein, Slovenia and Macao-China also scored above the OECD average of 500 score points.
On average across OECD countries, 1.3% of 15-year-olds reached Level 6 of the PISA 2006 science scale, the highest proficiency level. These students could consistently identify, explain and apply scientific knowledge, and knowledge about science, in a variety of complex life situations. In New Zealand and Finland this figure was at least 3.9%, three times the OECD average. In the United Kingdom, Australia, Japan and Canada, as well as the partner countries/economies Liechtenstein, Slovenia and Hong Kong-China, between 2 and 3% reached Level 6.

source - http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_32252351_32236191_39718850_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml

So if I you compare the NZ with the USA or UK, NZ is far better in the only measurable way.

And because I clearly have nothing better to do on a Sat night... I trawled through those spredsheets and some interesting facts.

--NZ has the best percentage of very advanced science students. 4.0, just pipping Finland, so if your kid wants to be a scientist... NZ is the place!

--Finland gets its revenge in Maths and just pips NZ into second place for advanced students understanding advanced concepts.

--The UK and USA have VERY dissapointing results in both categories.

I noticed someone mentioning that NZ is behind Europe.... err well maybe Finland in some areas (and not in others), but the stats say that NZ is far FAR ahead of Europe.

[seattle]

These threads comparing education systems aways confuse me.

The only way we can judge education systems with even a slim amount of accuracy is to compare exam results in exams that all the students take from various countries and NZ students consistantly outperform UK students in those measures.

Lerts look at the expert PISA review, I will just highlight the executive summary.



source - http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_32252351_32236191_39718850_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml

So if I you compare the NZ with the USA or UK, NZ is far better in the only measurable way.

And because I clearly have nothing better to do on a Sat night... I trawled through those spredsheets and some interesting facts.

--NZ has the best percentage of very advanced science students. 4.0, just pipping Finland, so if your kid wants to be a scientist... NZ is the place!

--Finland gets its revenge in Maths and just pips NZ into second place for advanced students understanding advanced concepts.

--The UK and USA have VERY dissapointing results in both categories.

I noticed someone mentioning that NZ is behind Europe.... err well maybe Finland in some areas (and not in others), but the stats say that NZ is far FAR ahead of Europe.

It is confusing I agree. I just saw an article in Time magazine (u.s. version) and saw similar results (this might be the same that you are referring to) where NZ was ahead of the US. One reason I think is b/c the U.S. results include the results of the inner city schools, and very low performing school districts- where a lot of the students drop out, can barely read or do math by high school, etc. Unfortunately in the U.S., schools vary from state to state, public vs. private. Its hard to making a sweeping judgement about the education in the US.

[Tesall]

It is confusing I agree. I just saw an article in Time magazine (u.s. version) and saw similar results (this might be the same that you are referring to) where NZ was ahead of the US. One reason I think is b/c the U.S. results include the results of the inner city schools, and very low performing school districts- where a lot of the students drop out, can barely read or do math by high school, etc. Unfortunately in the U.S., schools vary from state to state, public vs. private. Its hard to making a sweeping judgement about the education in the US.

Not really valid IMHO

The report makes it fairly clear that they take a clear cross section and tested that. Also testing advanced students, the advanced students results were interestingas NZ did incredibly well in that area, effectively saying that NZ's top students in science were better (as in more of them understood and showed a high level of understanding) than any other on the planet. Same applies to mathematics. Even the lower levels of student ability,NZ and Finnish students punched wellabove the weight.

caveat -This study is broad and individual differenves will obviously arise, nowhere in your posts have you slated NZ system as a whole, so I am not 'having a go at you' you have to do what is right for your kids. My comments were mainly aimed at the person who claimed her/his kids were learning stuff 2 years behind Europe, as I think this gives a blatantly incorrect image as to the state of NZ education to people who might be reading this board and making a vital decision!

[nickydwuk]

Good luck with the planning and moving back home. We are doing the same but to the UK. Nothing to do with the education system just that we know it is not for us and wasn't after about 3 months. Unlike you though we bought a house and so have to wait for that to sell. Hope we won't be too far behind. :exit

[seattle]

Not really valid IMHO

The report makes it fairly clear that they take a clear cross section and tested that. Also testing advanced students, the advanced students results were interestingas NZ did incredibly well in that area, effectively saying that NZ's top students in science were better (as in more of them understood and showed a high level of understanding) than any other on the planet. Same applies to mathematics. Even the lower levels of student ability,NZ and Finnish students punched wellabove the weight.

caveat -This study is broad and individual differenves will obviously arise, nowhere in your posts have you slated NZ system as a whole, so I am not 'having a go at you' you have to do what is right for your kids. My comments were mainly aimed at the person who claimed her/his kids were learning stuff 2 years behind Europe, as I think this gives a blatantly incorrect image as to the state of NZ education to people who might be reading this board and making a vital decision!

I'm sure there are all kinds of stats out there that support that the NZ education is great. But you are right, I'm not taking a swipe at the whole system. I can only base my opinion on experience- and the school that two of my daughters attend- which was recently listed as one of the "top 10" in the newspaper (article relating to NCEA standards) is not nearly as challenging for them as their school in the U.S. They are not writing half as much, the math is what they were doing two years ago, they have little to no homework. I have spoken to other American families with older kids who have experienced the same. But again its all relative and I'm sure it depends on the child, school, and previous schooling experiences. Believe me, we researched these schools, stats, articles, etc. before we came to NZ but our experience has been very disappointing and has not been what we expected.

[seattle]

Good luck with the planning and moving back home. We are doing the same but to the UK. Nothing to do with the education system just that we know it is not for us and wasn't after about 3 months. Unlike you though we bought a house and so have to wait for that to sell. Hope we won't be too far behind. :exit

Hey nickydwuk- good luck on selling your house and moving back!