[victoria24]

not sure if you picked the right quote ian!
interesting reading though.
Heartfelt wishes go out to anyone who has suffered though from the effects of these tragedies. I remember when a guy I went to school with popped into the woods with some rope and never came back. Very weird when you're 17/18 to get your head around.

[IanW99]

not sure if you picked the right quote ian!
...


Oops, well spotted, right person, wrong quote :)

Hope you found it interesting all the same.

Ian

[ourquest]

and saying that "it happens everywhere" (not a direct quote from yourself, or anyone on here I don't think) doesn't make up for the fact that it does happen far too frequently.

It doesn't make up, no, but it does remind people that they are seeing things in their new country that they perceive to be new (because we are in that kind of mindset), but objective statistics would at least show that the same problems exist everywhere to a greater or lesser degree.

Expecting every aspect to be better when you move is very idealistic, and those who do shouldn't really be surprised when they get disillusioned.

Watching the posts appear on this thread is like watching a trade me auction close!

[victoria24]

$12.50 final bid :D

[ellenmelon]

Oops, well spotted, right person, wrong quote :)

Hope you found it interesting all the same.

Ian

Thanks for the link Ian. I found it interesting, if not incredibly sad!

[Arwen]

$12.50 final bid :D


Sold!! :clap:laugh:laugh

[ellenmelon]

LOL at Trademe reference...it's wierd when you post and when the page refreshes the next post says "$12.50 final bid! Sold!" :)

[ourquest]

$12.50 final bid :D

Hey bro, got a bagged ute wiv cool tyres like new tread check out my listing. Wanna swop wiv like some cash your way? ourquestbro007 (1)*

[ellenmelon]

It doesn't make up, no, but it does remind people that they are seeing things in their new country that they perceive to be new (because we are in that kind of mindset), but objective statistics would at least show that the same problems exist everywhere to a greater or lesser degree.

Expecting every aspect to be better when you move is very idealistic, and those who do shouldn't really be surprised when they get disillusioned.

Watching the posts appear on this thread is like watching a trade me auction close!

True, but I also think when we read things like the OPs post that he might be feeling really stink and being logical with stat's is the furtherest thing from their minds. All they might be doing is venting and venting rarely is objective :) (Says I, pointing out the obvious!)

[CJ22]

Neither mod who has so far posted on this thread has actually modded anything at all, but has merely reminded anybody/everybody of the rule against personal attacks.

Whilst not modding any of those personal attacks (as far as I can tell), not even the ones coming after your warning. Hey, I don't mind, you know I'm down on the censorship previously expressed on this forum. I'm all in favor of a light moderator touch, as long as it's consistent. Nice to see the new policy in place, and I look forward to exploiting it.

@Ngeru: Don't be too trepidatious - these threads occasionally show a little spark in them and that's to be welcome. Like most family rows, they're more light than heat, and they occasionally expose a little unspoken truth. It makes a change from threads about where to find gravy granules ;) Most people don't take them personally, and what happens in the thread stays in the thread (I think!).

Anyway, my apologies Arwen for my assumption of your newbness. However, my point was more about the fact that the OP has been in-country more than long enough to form a valid (if colored) opinion. His way of expressing his opinion was hyperbolic in one place, but I'm guessing we've all been guilty of that once in a while. Perhaps that simply shows that the OP is sincere in his despair. And essentially he was correct, if blunt (and somewhat irrelevant) about it.

This forum is overwhelmingly positive (imho) not because people here are over-positive, but because New Zealand doesn't have many bad points. It's an amazing place, and there's not much to complain about. But that makes it all the more important we do let people express their negative experiences. Like a lot of people here I suspect, I'd prefer concrete reasons for dissatisfaction, as that makes things make more sense, and maybe others can avoid the pitfalls. But we just have to accept that often people's reasons for not liking the place are based on nebulous emotions and general bad experience, and sometimes plain just not getting on with it. That's valid. I respect the OP for bothering to post at all, and for being honest about their reasons, which are every bit as valid as somebody missing their loved-ones. The figures speak for themselves in the number of immigrants who return home.

I enjoyed the discussion about the link between poverty and suicide, and Arwen makes some great points about the link not being a simple thing. Like a lot of people, I've been assuming that the suicide rates fell along racial or cultural lines - it's interest to find out they're not.

[Sam B]

I'm sure personal attacks only get moderated if you report them CJ - maybe no-one has reported them?

[CJ22]

I'm sure personal attacks only get moderated if you report them CJ - maybe no-one has reported them?

Since when do we operate on the principle that bullying and personal attacks are tolerated until the point they're reported? I hope nobody here applies that principle in real life.

[leachio]

Oh lordy lordy, I have a few days of the forum and come back to this!!! Wow!

Im not gonna get into he says/she says but what I can say is that before coming to NZ I was VERY interested in both good and bad posts, allbeit I and prob most people chose to focus mainly on the positive ones even if only subconciously. However when uve been there a while and having a bad day its nice to reflect on the neg posts and know that your not the only 1 to have felt a particular way.

My hubby is a policeman and was 1 in NZ whilst we were there so I can be factual with this bit. There is a high percentage of kids and adults taking drugs and hard drugs too, there is a high domestic abuse rate, and sadly in the few mths we were there he dealt with several suicides :yes some kiwi's and some british. The gang culture was rife and weapons used daily. Some days he would just repeat a cycle of offenders during his shift.

For us it was def homesickness and illness that brought us home but at least we can say we tried it, however I can def say that money would have become a major issue for us and we are both deemed professionals, we found that the education system where we were was a fraction behind but our kids were young enough to fit in no problem. I can see sense in some of the original post but as my nan said its not what u say its the way u say it!!

[Arwen]

Anyway, my apologies Arwen for my assumption of your newbness. However, my point was more about the fact that the OP has been in-country more than long enough to form a valid (if colored) opinion.

Hey apology accepted CJ22. :nice1 No hard feelings.

Apologies from me too for getting a little bit wound up earlier. ;)

[CJ22]

Sweet as...

:cheers

[stellachiara]

People really need to stop referencing Nationmaster -- most of their statistics are from at least 10 years ago.

[CJ22]

CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/)

[JandM]

Since when do we operate on the principle that bullying and personal attacks are tolerated until the point they're reported? I hope nobody here applies that principle in real life.It may surprise you to know (rhetoric there - I'm sure it's obvious) that none of the mods lives with one eye on the computer screen, waiting for each post to be made. If anyone reports a post they object to, an email is sent out, and we'll look at the matter next time we're online. No objections - no email alerts - no mods knowing they could be galloping to the rescue.

And on the matter of the thread itself... (mod hat off) I'm all for people getting things right if they're going assert them as fact, so I completely see the point of correcting the various errors found above. But I don't think anyone's ever going to change someone else's opinions and feelings by arguing - they aren't subject to proof or logic. The OP has had a bad time, he wanted to tell us about it, and now he has. No amount of telling him he could have had a better time (or ought to have had a better time) is going to make a difference. He was miserable - I honestly hope he'll feel better somewhere else.

[pleccy2000]

If the OP is genuine: Good luck to you, you've experienced something that many others only talk about. I hope you find your comfort again in UK. And I for one welcome your negative opinions and would love it if you could elaborate further. Why don't you reply?

If the OP is a troll (and I'm not suggesting they are but who knows): well you got the reaction that you wanted....

[willsken]

CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/)


Thanks CJ, very interesting. One thing puzzles me though, is the differences in the literacy wording between UK and NZ. Maybe they don’t want to embarrass the UK with how poor the stats would be if the question was the same as NZ? ;)

I looked at literacy stats because as a teacher I have found NZ pleasantly surprising. The numbers of the student that can read to a high level here is fantastic. Reading ability has not impacted on my classes here at all, where as in the UK every class would have students that struggled because of low or no reading ability. This is one of the biggest things I noticed here, no matter what the background of the student they can read! It’s great.

(I am aware that there are children in NZ that have difficulties with reading and my statement above is regarding non special needs children in the decile 4 school I have experience working in.)


Literacy (UK)
definition: age 15 and over has completed five or more years of schooling
total population: 99%
male: 99%
female: 99% (2003 est.)


Literacy: (NZ)
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 99%
male: 99%
female: 99% (2003 est.)

[Wadsayed]

Well this is a very difficult. We are going back and taking a huge loss . The reasons are many. We love NZ as a place to visit ,but living here is dull beyond belief .Standards are low and schools are not challenging (both teachers , I no longer teach). People have no zest. The switched of nature is frustrating. Earnings are pathetic. Far to many people here are in poverty. Racism is worse than Uk. We visited 8 times over 12 yrs and still the true nature of the place eluded us. My best friend is a kiwi that lives in Holland. He said he would rather die than come back here and thought we were mad for coming here.
I love the weather and the coast line . But really what else is there. No wonder the kids are all on drugs and topping themselves. I wanted to do the five yrs and get the passport. Oh well.
I was in the center of Auckland last night and a woman came up to me and said "do you want a good time" I said "yes" . she gave me a ticket to Australia.

please advise , 42 professional lives in devon UK with wife , two clidren 3 and 7. reasonable life style , 76K sterling pound salary , no extended family in UK . . no big cities issues (crimes , traffic .etc) . However fed up with uk weather hate cold and rain. worried about UK future esp economy crime, education and racism . has job offer in Aukalnd 160K dollars .never been to nz. you hear good weather BUT cold freezing feet in winter . low cost of living BUT you hear expensive renting and small poor qualty houses . you hear a fiendly poeple , BUT you hear racism is worse than UK . you hear safe BUT gangs in Aukland and drug every where ..........I am at a loss please help

[CJ22]

Wadsayed, I've posted a reply to your other thread asking the same question.

[bobo]

Can I respectfully suggest you check what he said again? He said all teenagers top themselves. Unless of course you agree with him?

Are we being a bit pedantic?
I am sure you understood the point being made and IMHO the OP does have a point.

[Kanga]

Are we being a bit pedantic?
I am sure you understood the point being made and IMHO the OP does have a point.

I agree somewhat with this post. Of course the OP didn't mean that *all* NZ teens are topping themselves and surely noone seriously read his post as being that literal?

There are probably all sorts of reasons why the OP has decided to leave NZ and it might have been useful and interesting to have been able to explore them here. I guess it depends on whether this is forum to advertise emigrating to NZ or one to discuss emigrating to NZ.

I do 'get' that some will take offence with his 'sweeping statement' over the top defensive writing style- it made me laugh tbh- but he's not personally attacking anyone for choosing NZ and yet so many have taken it personally. I don't get that- it's a forum folks, somewhere to discuss things :)

[Arwen]

I do 'get' that some will take offence with his 'sweeping statement' over the top defensive writing style- it made me laugh tbh- but he's not personally attacking anyone for choosing NZ and yet so many have taken it personally. I don't get that- it's a forum folks, somewhere to discuss things :)

Kanga, I realise he is not 'personally' attacking anyone, but I 'personally' take great offence to statements such as:

'But really what else is there. No wonder the kids are all on drugs and topping themselves'.

I find it to be very insensitive to people who have had to deal with devastation of suicide and drug abuse amongst teens or otherwise.

Sure, dislike NZ if you want too, that's everyone's personal perogative, but please draw the line at attacking people who are not here to defend themselves and their families by implying that the reason why your beloved son/daughter/mother/father etc has decided to end their lives is because they must have been bored!!!!

[Arwen]

I would also like to add that if garyanimal had not written that one offensive statement, my response to his post would have been entirely different. I would have been far more sympathetic to his situation.

Trust me, I was not looking for an argument, but I do think it's important to stand up for what you believe is right.

[victoria24]

good call arwen.. otherwise anybody sitting through neighbours would be with us no longer ;)

[napiers]

This forum is overwhelmingly positive (imho) not because people here are over-positive, but because New Zealand doesn't have many bad points. It's an amazing place, and there's not much to complain about. But that makes it all the more important we do let people express their negative experiences. Like a lot of people here I suspect, I'd prefer concrete reasons for dissatisfaction, as that makes things make more sense, and maybe others can avoid the pitfalls. But we just have to accept that often people's reasons for not liking the place are based on nebulous emotions and general bad experience, and sometimes plain just not getting on with it. That's valid. I respect the OP for bothering to post at all, and for being honest about their reasons, which are every bit as valid as somebody missing their loved-ones. The figures speak for themselves in the number of immigrants who return home.


I'm not in NZ yet and have found people's views and opinions about the positive and negative sides generally very interesting and helpful (I think - some of them make me question our decision and make me think abit too much - I know that's a good thing!). As CJ22 said many of the posts do have a positive 'spin' but I have found that invariably posters do seem to include the downsides too. It's just that for those people the positives outweigh the negatives and therefore their posts reflect that; so while many do take an effective drop in salary, find the cost of food relatively expensive, miss friends and family etc they have learned to accept or manage it because of what they/their family are getting out of it. (I know there are many areas of give and take in this so put in your own to make it relevant!!)

Does the rose tinted glasses thing possibly comes more from those of us who haven't yet moved? I know that when we embarked on this process, when perhaps it was just thoughts, my idea of what life would be like was very very different to my idea now. I saw it as a way of getting away from all I don't like about the UK but when I put my sensible head on, got a bit of perspective and discovered this forum it put my feet very firmly on the ground. My rose tinted specs are definitely off and at the moment, after weighing everything up, we still feel that NZ is where we want to be.

A big part of whether life in NZ works for you is down to luck - first job, rental, how easy it is to meet people etc and people will have more control over some of those things than others. Also, the reasons why you moved - family, quality of life, work. If my OH was overly ambitious in his work and that was everything to him then we wouldn't even consider NZ, he'd be staying in the UK or possibly going to Australia (a discussion that has been had at times!). That's not to suggest that he isn't ambitious and doesn't take his job seriously - he does and puts in long hours and long train journeys!

I've rambled abit and perhaps got myself abit muddled so hopefully you can make sense of it! :)

[mooncalf]

Racism is worse than Uk.

Can you elaborate? I have visited 3 times and not found that to be case!

[Kanga]

Can you elaborate? I have visited 3 times and not found that to be case!

Visiting isn't the same as living though. It's like living ina society comprised of the attitudes of your grandparents- you continually find yourself wondering if you actually heard that comment on the radio or if the joke actually had the punchline you thought it had. My husband is a mental health nurse and when he worked in inpatient services he found some of the staff room banter at times very trying.

Although I know many expats who find it all 'refreshingly un-pc', so I guess it just depends on your perspective. Derogatory remarks and jokes about Maori people seem to be par the course among many (not all) Kiwis and expats.

[benandclare]

Can you elaborate? I have visited 3 times and not found that to be case!

We saw none on our honeymoon but having lived here for some 21 months it is certainly more prevalent than in the UK.

In fact I had to let one of my customers go for her blatant and appalling attitude to non European immigrants .

I heard a quote yesterday that sums up our feelings about the Kiwi's expressiveness .

"Britons are too polite to be honest but Kiwi's are too honest to be polite."

[Arwen]

In fact I had to let one of my customers go for her blatant and appalling attitude to non European immigrants.


All credit to you Ben&Clare for sticking up for what you believe to be right and proper. I admire that. :nice1

[Scotty69]

Visiting isn't the same as living though. It's like living ina society comprised of the attitudes of your grandparents- you continually find yourself wondering if you actually heard that comment on the radio or if the joke actually had the punchline you thought it had. My husband is a mental health nurse and when he worked in inpatient services he found some of the staff room banter at times very trying.

Although I know many expats who find it all 'refreshingly un-pc', so I guess it just depends on your perspective. Derogatory remarks and jokes about Maori people seem to be par the course among many (not all) Kiwis and expats.


I have been here nearly 6 months now and I am half Scottish / West Indian and I yet to come across racism whereas in the UK it was something I dealt with more often than I would like to remember.

But I must add that I have heard that racism is worse in the south Island more than the North, I don't know what truth is in this.

Natasha

[Arwen]

I have been here nearly 6 months now and I am half Scottish / West Indian and I yet to come across racism whereas in the UK it was something I dealt with more often than I would like to remember.

Natasha

Natasha, I think it's awful that you have had to put up with racism back in the UK. I'm very glad to hear you have not come across the same problems here in NZ.

[bobo]

Can you elaborate? I have visited 3 times and not found that to be case!

I am sure a lot has to do with where in the UK you come from and where in NZ you go to. I did not hear a lot of racist comments in the part of Scotland I lived. I have heared a lot more here in CHCH from people who should know better.

[bobo]

..... I have heard that racism is worse in the south Island more than the North, I don't know what truth is in this.


IMHO this is true.

[thewoodies]

What a very disturbing thread! Any suicide is sad what about all those poor mothers all round the world ??????????????

As for drugs teenagers can get them anywhere in either UK or NZ - (my teenager has been offered them in both countries) - i think you just have to bring the kids up the best you can and educate them about the affects/addictions and what happens etc etc and just hope they dont get into the wrong crowd - often its down to peer pressure .

Also remember alcohol is a drug! I have a friend who drank himself to death - all i can see is his poor mum wallking in front of his coffin ..............

I fel really sad now :wah

[NewHope]

IMHO this is true.

Can you please explain a bit how do you come to this conclusion?

[Ngeru]

Can you please explain a bit how do you come to this conclusion?

For my 2 cents. It's not much of a secret that South Island has a lot of the old white supremecists thing going on, the population is largely of white anglo saxon descent with very low numbers of Maori compared to the North Island and they have not had to deal with large influxes of obvious 'foreigners' until recent years.

To the extent that Anecdotally, they are not known for being particularly open-minded or welcoming to immigrants of colour. Christchurch in particular, is a bastion of white middle New Zealand and it seems an awul lot of the physical or violent racial attacks that we hear of in the news happen in Christchurch.

North Island cities are a lot more cosmopolitan and accepting, with larger numbers of what I would (without prejudice) term as 'obvious' immigrants.

Whilst I am sure the extremist right wing 'White Pride', skinhead groups, neo-Nazis, National Front and Stormfront are alive and well throughout NZ, they are quite self evident and active around Christchurch.

[Sheldon]

It is quite disturbing to read this. I must say I didn't encounter any racism on my trip to NZ last year.

[bobo]

Can you please explain a bit how do you come to this conclusion?

This is just my opinion based on experiences of living for a limited time living in Welly and Chch. (I know that this is a limited experience)

See the post above from Ngeru.

When some numpty thought about building a white only community he wanted to base it in North Canterbury. I am sure that this was not just coincidence

[mylesdw]

Whilst I am sure the extremist right wing 'White Pride', skinhead groups, neo-Nazis, National Front and Stormfront are alive and well throughout NZ, they are quite self evident and active around Christchurch.

Can't say I've ever seen any.

[bobo]

Can't say I've ever seen any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Chapman

The numpty I refered to earlier

[NewHope]

This is just my opinion based on experiences of living for a limited time living in Welly and Chch. (I know that this is a limited experience)

See the post above from Ngeru.

When some numpty thought about building a white only community he wanted to base it in North Canterbury. I am sure that this was not just coincidence

As far as you know, what is the government's role (perhaps local level) in tackling these issues? Are they actively working on it or perhaps more on the passive side?

[benandclare]

Whilst I am sure the extremist right wing 'White Pride', skinhead groups, neo-Nazis, National Front and Stormfront are alive and well throughout NZ, they are quite self evident and active around Christchurch.


Having not seen evidence of these groups myself either but asked Sam my 17 year old stepson and he assures me they are very much evident in Christchurch. He's seen them on quite a few occasions .

The racism I encounter is along the lines of a Kiwi referring to those B .... A.....
When I point out that I'm an immigrant too they generally reply with " oh you don't count" :uhoh

[beanbeanz]

I almost stumbled upon a white supremacy march in cathedral square (in chch) towards the end of march. They're around. I've also seen cars of 'skinheads' (the cars are appropriately adorned with stickers etc. to indicate them as such)

[bobo]

As far as you know, what is the government's role (perhaps local level) in tackling these issues? Are they actively working on it or perhaps more on the passive side?

To be honest I dont know.

[Philip10]

Tsk tsk, garyanimal. Don't you know you are supposed to graciously whisper something about missing your family in the UK, leave NZ, and disappear forever into the internet ether? :D Expressing any dissatisfaction with NZ is ticky tacky :p

:clap :clap

[Philip10]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png



:laugh :laugh :laugh

[garyanimal]

Well I seemed to have stirred up a hornets nest. It was mentioned that I failed to make any positive comments about NZ. Well I have fond memories from here. First coming in 1987 I spent half the year here and half in Europe. I did that for many years. I love the look of the land and the weather. It is quiet and laid back and I loved that to ,before I moved here permanently. I think it is the best place in the world to come for a long holiday. I have many Kiwi friends , The odd thing is they all told me I was mad for moving here. Most have now left for OZ or are doing so. The reason in every case is money. Most people on these forums arrive with money. For Kiwi's getting by, is a real problem. They live in cold damp houses they cannot afford to heat. I came with money and I'm mortgage free ,but I have spent the remainder and now have to live on what we earn . I suppose many reasons have played a part in our wanting to head back to Europe. Family is a big issue for my wife but not my self. She has brothers and sisters I do not (my brother is dead- almost suicide). I made more money in the UK so that effects my decision . My daughter is five and her name is Auckland Rangitoto Knights . We named her before we decided to move here. She is in a great school and quite happy here. Her best friend at school is named Sydney (not joking)And that is one reason we are finding it hard to make the decision to go back. She is happy here.
For me the main reason I want to go back is the richness of culture found in Europe. I miss buildings and I'm tired at looking at sheds. I miss good food and art . I even miss decent TV programs. New Zealand offers a unique frontier life style .For those that can stand the isolation its a wonderful place. On the down side it is very racist here. I asked a South African why so many off them settled here. She said its so like South Africa used to be-that worried me . Certainly the Maoris and polynesians do not do as well here as the whites. My friend , a Maori , says i cannot begin to understand
the underlying animosity between the Maoris and Pakeha . It takes a history of oppression to understand that. Now England is no bed off roses and I will most likely settle in Mainland Europe . I miss the edgy ,exciting feeling I had in the UK. The drifty thing was good for a while . Now however ,I want to live somewhere where people have a bit of spunk. A zest for life. I want to live somewhere where the locals say more and stand up for more. "It'll be right" , actually it will not unless you get up and fight for change.

[Scotty69]

I think if you had put up all that stuff then no one would have complained. Its a real shame you are back, especially as the UK seems to be getting worse, economically.

However the best of luck to you and your family.

Scott

[stellachiara]

I agree -- if that was your original post, no one would have had a problem with it. It makes sense that if you want a more cosmopolitan lifestyle, you don't want to live in New Zealand! And sometimes you like living a certain way for a while, and then you're ready for a change. Nothing wrong with that. That said, I don't know what place doesn't have racism or a history of colonialism that still causes tension today. Part of the human package, as is drugs, suicide, and crime.

[5kings]

I have many Kiwi friends , The odd thing is they all told me I was mad for moving here. Most have now left for OZ or are doing so. The reason in every case is money. Most people on these forums arrive with money. For Kiwi's getting by, is a real problem. They live in cold damp houses they cannot afford to heat. I came with money and I'm mortgage free ,but I have spent the remainder and now have to live on what we earn .

Hi

We will be coming to NZ with some money,enough to live on for a year, but certainly not enough to be mortgage free. We are planning on renting for quite some time, and I don't expect we'll ever have loads of money to buy a fancy house. Also if we leave the UK I doubt we'd get back on the property ladder due to buying 10 years ago before prices shot up.

I know this sounds like a funny question but do you think money issues affect those who are not used to having money? We don't have much money here, but as long as we can pay our bills, and have a few BBQs we are ok. We are used to living on one lowish income, and in NZ would have 2 incomes.

Has anyone moved from the UK without loads of equity and been ok?

Helen

[YouMeAndThree]

I know this sounds like a funny question but do you think money issues affect those who are not used to having money? We don't have much money here, but as long as we can pay our bills, and have a few BBQs we are ok. We are used to living on one lowish income, and in NZ would have 2 incomes.

Has anyone moved from the UK without loads of equity and been ok?

Helen

This is something I've discussed with a couple of people since we arrived. The one finding it the toughest is the couple who were both working and earning a fairly good wage, now she is a SAHM and really struggling. I think the change of income and whole move abroad can sometime be too much all at once.

Ourselves and another couple are finding things easier because we were already SAHM on a limited income/budget in the UK. Our spending habits have not had to change too much as we struggled before coming here. My OH is actually earning slightly more than in the UK.

We didn't bring enough money with us to be mortgage free, heck we don't even have enough to get a mortgage yet. We do however still have our house in the UK, which we rent out (but with ceilings caving in and boiler being condemed since we got here we are certainly not 'in profit' on the rent by a long shot :()

[5kings]

Ourselves and another couple are finding things easier because we were already SAHM on a limited income/budget in the UK. Our spending habits have not had to change too much as we struggled before coming here. My OH is actually earning slightly more than in the UK.
:()

That's really reassuring, thanks for that! I think money wise, we would be better off in NZ, that is because we are coming from an area which pays low wages, (even worse since he was made redundant) so we are used to shopping for bargains, and not ever going out for meals and so on.

I think we will be better off in NZ, as we will both be working hopefully, and yes we could both move elsewhere in the UK, but by selling our house we have one big chance to make a go of things in NZ, so we want to at least try!

We shoudl have enough money to fund all 5 of us for a year without work, so being flexible about where we live, hopefully one of us will be able to find something.

Thanks again for the helpful words!

Helen

[Kanga]

Although coming to NZ with a job lined up is great in some ways, otoh, coming here with enough cash to support yourselves while you find somewhere you want to be is almost better (provided you've a decent chance of finding work and are happy with shifting about to find where fits) because there's so much variety in NZ and it's impossible to really get a feel for places until you're in NZ. Good luck to you :)


That's really reassuring, thanks for that! I think money wise, we would be better off in NZ, that is because we are coming from an area which pays low wages, (even worse since he was made redundant) so we are used to shopping for bargains, and not ever going out for meals and so on.

I think we will be better off in NZ, as we will both be working hopefully, and yes we could both move elsewhere in the UK, but by selling our house we have one big chance to make a go of things in NZ, so we want to at least try!

We shoudl have enough money to fund all 5 of us for a year without work, so being flexible about where we live, hopefully one of us will be able to find something.

Thanks again for the helpful words!

Helen

[Scotty69]

Hi

We will be coming to NZ with some money,enough to live on for a year, but certainly not enough to be mortgage free. We are planning on renting for quite some time, and I don't expect we'll ever have loads of money to buy a fancy house. Also if we leave the UK I doubt we'd get back on the property ladder due to buying 10 years ago before prices shot up.

I know this sounds like a funny question but do you think money issues affect those who are not used to having money? We don't have much money here, but as long as we can pay our bills, and have a few BBQs we are ok. We are used to living on one lowish income, and in NZ would have 2 incomes.

Has anyone moved from the UK without loads of equity and been ok?

Helen

I've sent you a PM
Natasha

[Tesall]

For me the main reason I want to go back is the richness of culture found in Europe. I miss buildings and I'm tired at looking at sheds. I miss good food and art . I even miss decent TV programs. New Zealand offers a unique frontier life style .For those that can stand the isolation its a wonderful place. On the down side it is very racist here. I asked a South African why so many off them settled here. She said its so like South Africa used to be-that worried me . Certainly the Maoris and polynesians do not do as well here as the whites. My friend , a Maori , says i cannot begin to understand

Ypu say NZ has no culture and then in the same paragraph lament Maori's not being being treated right? Maybe you could have immersed yourself in Maori culture? Learnt te reo? I guess it is to late now. But NZ has a rich culture, just not one you are used to. It is probably more accurate to say you missed your version of culture. Thats perfectly valid I should add.

As for not having good food.... I cant agree with that, I have never eaten so well.... my waistline is the proof :(

As for rascism... I cant help but thin you are in for a VERY rude shock back in the UK. Blacks and Asian dont do as well in the UK as whites... so you are hardly heading back to a utopian racial environment. And I suppose at least in NZ they recognise the issue and the Maori have a strong political voice. Personally I think more could be done for Maori (call me captain obvious), but UK has far more severe issues with racism imo. I cant see suicide bombings in NZ any time soon.

[Kanga]

As for rascism... I cant help but thin you are in for a VERY rude shock back in the UK. Blacks and Asian dont do as well in the UK as whites... so you are hardly heading back to a utopian racial environment. And I suppose at least in NZ they recognise the issue and the Maori have a strong political voice. Personally I think more could be done for Maori (call me captain obvious), but UK has far more severe issues with racism imo. I cant see suicide bombings in NZ any time soon.

I don't think numbers of suicide bombings are indicative of levels of racism Tesall. I also don't think the poster said they were heading back to a utpoian racial environment.

[Tesall]

I don't think numbers of suicide bombings are indicative of levels of racism Tesall. I also don't think the poster said they were heading back to a utpoian racial environment.


I think they can be directly related to a feeling of disconnection from mainstream society and being treated like a second class citizen based on race. Throw a bit of religous zeal into the mix and.....
Well thats what all the reports stated after the tube bombings.


And the OP made it quite clear that racism made him/her unhappy and that was a reason for leaving NZ, therefore he/she should probably take it into account when choosing his/her next destination.. unless racism is not so much of an issue if it is in a country you like? (i include myself in that question)

[thewoodies]

Hi



I know this sounds like a funny question but do you think money issues affect those who are not used to having money? We don't have much money here, but as long as we can pay our bills, and have a few BBQs we are ok. We are used to living on one lowish income, and in NZ would have 2 incomes.

Has anyone moved from the UK without loads of equity and been ok?

Helen

Hi, Well Just!!! We only had enough money to survive for 6 months without getting jobs etc - so you already have a huge advantage. Our house is rented in the UK as we couldnt sell it - but luckily have a genrous dad who will lend us a deposit for a house here. OH job is paid less than his Uk , but has found that having a comapny car, Overtime (usually unheard of for electronic engineers in UK!!!) fre wirless broadband, free mobile phone - it all adds up - also look at family tax credit we were intitled to the child tax
credit part as soon as we entered the country with PR status, We lived on a tight budget in the Uk and so as I am for the moment a SAHM also its much the same. Food is expensive but using food world and mad butcher and countdown we manage ok (pak n save is also supposed to be good and cheap - havnt got there yet!) Brits do find it harder here and some find it hard to live to the same standard as the UK - we find we dont spend loads on the weekends as there are so many beaches , parks etc for the kids that are free! Good luck pm me if i can help further :D

sory about spelling little man keeps prressing...............

[ourquest]

On the down side it is very racist here. I asked a South African why so many off them settled here. She said its so like South Africa used to be-that worried me .

I would like you to be more specific about what worries you here.

If you are suggesting that "it's so like SA used to be" means that there is some comparison possible between the racism in NZ and the racism that there was in the past in SA then you clearly have no idea of the legal level of race separation and behind the scenes official brutality that took place in SA.

It is a completely different dynamic and all that can be said is that racism exists in both countries. And beyond that we would also have to agree that it is everywhere where there are different cultures operating. In fact, even by identifying New Zealanders as having "no zest" has shown you up as having an "us and them" point of view, instead of just treating people individually as you encounter them with no preconception.

On a similar track, I notice a lot of recognition of poverty in New Zealand by forum members. Again, it's all relative, and here it is NOTHING compared to poverty experienced by many people worldwide. Think of those surviving in makeshift shacks with no supply of safe water or sanitation, who also happen to be living with the influence of the AIDS pandemic as well as the threat of tropical diseases like cholera or malaria and no way to get to a half decent hospital.

My point here? Aspects such as poverty and racism are presented as justifiable reasons to identify NZ as a country with big issues. Just keep it in perspective. If these aspects are somewhere in the middle "on a sort of developed world scale" in NZ then they should be just seen for what they are...reminders that nowhere is perfect. Identifying too strongly with them in the NZ context comes across as exaggeration, not balance.

And coming back to NZ being like SA used to be, it is. But that is just as much about a lack of big, materially motivated, fast paced towns and a feeling of personal safety as it might be about racism. It should be remembered that not every comment about or by a South African is necessarily about racial politics. Normal everyday people live and have lived there too, just getting on with life, mowing the lawn and having friends over for a social.

[Tesall]

I would like you to be more specific about what worries you here.

If you are suggesting that "it's so like SA used to be" means that there is some comparison possible between the racism in NZ and the racism that there was in the past in SA then you clearly have no idea of the legal level of race separation and behind the scenes official brutality that took place in SA.

It is a completely different dynamic and all that can be said is that racism exists in both countries. And beyond that we would also have to agree that it is everywhere where there are different cultures operating. In fact, even by identifying New Zealanders as having "no zest" has shown you up as having an "us and them" point of view, instead of just treating people individually as you encounter them with no preconception.

On a similar track, I notice a lot of recognition of poverty in New Zealand by forum members. Again, it's all relative, and here it is NOTHING compared to poverty experienced by many people worldwide. Think of those surviving in makeshift shacks with no supply of safe water or sanitation, who also happen to be living with the influence of the AIDS pandemic as well as the threat of tropical diseases like cholera or malaria and no way to get to a half decent hospital.

My point here? Aspects such as poverty and racism are presented as justifiable reasons to identify NZ as a country with big issues. Just keep it in perspective. If these aspects are somewhere in the middle "on a sort of developed world scale" in NZ then they should be just seen for what they are...reminders that nowhere is perfect. Identifying too strongly with them in the NZ context comes across as exaggeration, not balance.

And coming back to NZ being like SA used to be, it is. But that is just as much about a lack of big, materially motivated, fast paced towns and a feeling of personal safety as it might be about racism. It should be remembered that not every comment about or by a South African is necessarily about racial politics. Normal everyday people live and have lived there too, just getting on with life, mowing the lawn and having friends over for a social.

Good grief thats a good post. :clap :clap

[stellachiara]

Beautiful, thank you for that.

[JandM]

Ourquest, the system won't allow me to rep you for that, but you deserve it.

[andrewp]

Ourquest, the system won't allow me to rep you for that, but you deserve it.

Same here. Thanks for that post Ourquest!
:cheers

[M-Squared]

Karma given, ourquest. :)

[Red Devil]

I would like you to be more specific about what worries you here.

If you are suggesting that "it's so like SA used to be" means that there is some comparison possible between the racism in NZ and the racism that there was in the past in SA then you clearly have no idea of the legal level of race separation and behind the scenes official brutality that took place in SA.

It is a completely different dynamic and all that can be said is that racism exists in both countries. And beyond that we would also have to agree that it is everywhere where there are different cultures operating. In fact, even by identifying New Zealanders as having "no zest" has shown you up as having an "us and them" point of view, instead of just treating people individually as you encounter them with no preconception.

On a similar track, I notice a lot of recognition of poverty in New Zealand by forum members. Again, it's all relative, and here it is NOTHING compared to poverty experienced by many people worldwide. Think of those surviving in makeshift shacks with no supply of safe water or sanitation, who also happen to be living with the influence of the AIDS pandemic as well as the threat of tropical diseases like cholera or malaria and no way to get to a half decent hospital.

My point here? Aspects such as poverty and racism are presented as justifiable reasons to identify NZ as a country with big issues. Just keep it in perspective. If these aspects are somewhere in the middle "on a sort of developed world scale" in NZ then they should be just seen for what they are...reminders that nowhere is perfect. Identifying too strongly with them in the NZ context comes across as exaggeration, not balance.

And coming back to NZ being like SA used to be, it is. But that is just as much about a lack of big, materially motivated, fast paced towns and a feeling of personal safety as it might be about racism. It should be remembered that not every comment about or by a South African is necessarily about racial politics. Normal everyday people live and have lived there too, just getting on with life, mowing the lawn and having friends over for a social.

Spot on, excellent post :nice1

[AlastairUK]

Racism is worse than Uk.

Have you been back to the UK lately? This is part of the reason I'm leaving. While as a white male, I'm obviously not the target of racism, that the BNP is growing in popularity plus the general underlying xenophobia we have in the UK, it just angers me. The Daily (Hate) Mail has a lot to answer for. All the kiwis I've ever met have never shown themselves to be in the slightest bit racist. I'd be curious as to whether it is actually worse than the UK, because it's getting terrible here.

[spudulike]

Have you been back to the UK lately? This is part of the reason I'm leaving. While as a white male, I'm obviously not the target of racism, that the BNP is growing in popularity plus the general underlying xenophobia we have in the UK, it just angers me. The Daily (Hate) Mail has a lot to answer for. All the kiwis I've ever met have never shown themselves to be in the slightest bit racist. I'd be curious as to whether it is actually worse than the UK, because it's getting terrible here.

Really? I don't see the level of racism you are mentioning - although I'm not saying it doesn't exist. As for the Daily Mail, I don't know anyone that reads it.. :exit

NZ most certainly does have problems with racism - and poverty, drugs, child abuse etc. Just the same as any other country! The fact is that time and time again people who are leaving the UK make it out to be the worst place in the world to live - some settle nicely in NZ and others don't; they return to the UK saying how much they miss the culture, heritage etc and put the racism, drug problems, child abuse into a more reasonable perspective.

Not a criticism, just an observation - each to their own I guess. :)

L

[aberdian]

"For me the main reason I want to go back is the richness of culture found in Europe. I miss buildings and I'm tired at looking at sheds. I miss good food and art . I even miss decent TV programs. New Zealand offers a unique frontier life style .For those that can stand the isolation its a wonderful place."

Everyone has jumped on the whole SA sentence, but the above quote rings a bell also. Culture has to have a hook for it to mean anything - Maori culture may well be interesting, but for someone whose whole background is European, then it may well not mean anything to you as it's not your culture and all the immersing and te reo isn't really going to change that much.
And the buildings quote is true too - I miss the buildings and do think that most of them here look like sheds (especially our house :) )
TV? Meh. Debateable. It's very American biased here, if you like that stuff, it's great, if you're a BBC2/C4 person, then not so.
The last sentence rings a bell for me and is actually a really positive one IMHO "New Zealand offers a unique frontier life style .For those that can stand the isolation its a wonderful place." If that's not what you're expecting or wanting, then you'll struggle.

I like it here. I just think that there's a wee bit of a lack of tolerance of those who struggle to think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Perspective is all.

[Kanga]

Just my opinion, and also this is not a political post (as per site rules) but a philosophical one.

I think the racism in NZ is of a different flavour than in the UK. In the UK you have racism in 'pockets' in society- ranging from Daily Mail reading right up to the BNP, whereas I think the middle class, Guardian reading masses are not racist and are very CONSCIOUSLY not racist. Some see this as "PC gone mad" and love NZ's brand of racism. NZ on a policy/Governmental level doesn't seem racist at all and yet on the ground there's is an undeniable widespread xenophobia that tips over to racism frequently. You'll hear jokes being made about Maori/Asian/PI people right across the social strata. It's this widespread chronic brand of racism that is a feature of NZ.

I'm not sure which is worse but if you're a self confessed fan of PCness (like me) and think "PC gone mad" is actually redressing the balance, re-calibrating the pendulum etc then NZ can be disorientating.

[winka]

As for the Daily Mail, I don't know anyone that reads it.. :exit


Are they as sanctimonious as many Guardian readers?
I used to mix with some people in London in various high positions that have a very skewed left wing anti Israel racist outlook but upon the pedestal they place themselves its only racist if its against non whites and only fascist if its right wing.
Some people cant see the forest for the trees.


Have you been back to the UK lately? This is part of the reason I'm leaving. While as a white male, I'm obviously not the target of racism, that the BNP is growing in popularity plus the general underlying xenophobia we have in the UK, it just angers me. The Daily (Hate) Mail has a lot to answer for. All the kiwis I've ever met have never shown themselves to be in the slightest bit racist. I'd be curious as to whether it is actually worse than the UK, because it's getting terrible here.

Try positive discrimination...the last thing you want to be to get ahead these days in the UK is a white male....

[Sam B]

Sure, I can't think of any successful white males in the UK at all.

[Ramo]

Are they as sanctimonious as many Guardian readers?


I don't know about sanctimonious, but Daily Mail readers probably believe everything they read. You'd have to, to stomach what they write...